I've been denied entry to Thailand - Now What ! ?

[Chivas]

For some time I have been advocating that the true cost of using Aeon is hidden behind not charging the 150 baht ATM fee.

On another forum I have had laymen telling me ( myself in finance for 26 years) that I'm wrong and this and that.

Last Saturday/Sunday (deliberatly chosen as rates "locked down") I withdrew 10,000 baht from Aeon, Siam Commercial, and Bangkok Banks ATMS in Buriram.

Obviously using the same card, so that different card providers charges can be ignored, the following charge was allocated to my UK account.

Aeon-£210.96

Siam Commercial-£209.68

Bangkok Bank-£209.57

Now it doesn't surprise me in the least, but more interesting was how close SCB and BB were.

I'm not getting into a debate about it but suggest any non believers try for yourselves. (Obviously do it when markets closed)

[snarky66]

Nowhere close to 150 baht.

[Chivas]

Nowhere close to 150 baht.

More to the point is that SCB and Bangkok Bank were still cheaper even though the debit was 10,150.

[BigRick]

It would be interesting to know because I also notice different banks give you different rates. One account cost me 23$ in transactions V/M fee OON the other 9$ and a higher conversion rate. I did a same transaction same atm two different banks(Pssst Chase bank SUCKS).

[mausbiber]

Sorry I got different experience.

I have a VISA card from a German Bank. It seems there is a different accounting mode.

If I take cash out of a ATM the amount in Thai Baht is charged to my German account. Here the Thai Baht is converted to the Euro.

So if the Thai Bank add a fee of THB 150 to the amount I put into my pocket additional THB 150 will be converted to the Euro.

I compared the exchange rate of my DKB and Bangkok Bank for the last 4 days: marginal better in Germany.

Everytime using the Aeon ATM with my DKB-VISA I save about 3,50 Eur.

Okay I have to admit: travel a long way only to the Aeon ATM makes no sense.

Otherwise: If you have to travel for other reasons try to fight the Thai bank scam, use the Aeon ATM

[BigRick]

Its a science with Aeon ATM's because some of them do not even have logos on them (MBK). I know the location of 9 of them in Bkk and CM they are located near places I travel over the course of a week. The crappy part is how banks call the rate and I noticed its always in their best interest.

[dddave]

Its a science with Aeon ATM's because some of them do not even have logos on them (MBK). I know the location of 9 of them in Bkk and CM they are located near places I travel over the course of a week. The crappy part is how banks call the rate and I noticed its always in their best interest.

I just noticed there was an AEON ATM at my local JUSCO supermarket, off Suk. 71 in Phra Khanong. It is in the entrance lobby between the entry doors; not with the rest of the ATM's outside the building.

Somebody told me they were at all the JUSCO's

[Chivas]

Its a science with Aeon ATM's because some of them do not even have logos on them (MBK). I know the location of 9 of them in Bkk and CM they are located near places I travel over the course of a week. The crappy part is how banks call the rate and I noticed its always in their best interest.

I just noticed there was an AEON ATM at my local JUSCO supermarket, off Suk. 71 in Phra Khanong. It is in the entrance lobby between the entry doors; not with the rest of the ATM's outside the building.

Somebody told me they were at all the JUSCO's

Absolutely won't be getting use of any of my ATM cards in the future that for sure !!

[JimGant]

More to the point is that SCB and Bangkok Bank were still cheaper even though the debit was 10,150.

I think what Snarky meant was, even tho' the FX rate at Aeon was inferior, because of the 150bt fee, you effectively pd 212.67 at BB for your 10,000bt, and 212.73 at SCB -- or nearly 1% more. So, Aeon still wins for the effective rate.

But, the inferior actual Aeon rate is curious.

[Chivas]

More to the point is that SCB and Bangkok Bank were still cheaper even though the debit was 10,150.

I think what Snarky meant was, even tho' the FX rate at Aeon was inferior, because of the 150bt fee, you effectively pd 212.67 at BB for your 10,000bt, and 212.73 at SCB -- or nearly 1% more. So, Aeon still wins for the effective rate.

But, the inferior actual Aeon rate is curious.

The bottom line cost is what hits your account. Doesn't matter what charges are, or from where they come, are they Visa or Mastercard rates or ANA.

It's the charge that hits your account that matters, nothing else. I've proved (to myself) that what I've been inferring for some time is true-no more driving 5kms to use an ATM more expensive that two banks around the corner.

EDITED,

Having reread what you put no I didn't effectively pay £212.73 at SCB or higher at Bangkok Bank.

Even though the debit was higher at 10,150 from BB and SCB the overall charge was less.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Chivas

[JimGant]

Having reread what you put no I didn't effectively pay £212.73 at SCB or higher at Bangkok Bank.

Even though the debit was higher at 10,150 from BB and SCB the overall charge was less.

Ok, your UK statement says 209.57 quid for 10,150 baht. This works out to an exchange rate of 48.43 (which, incidentally, is what the Visa site shows for Aug 1st). Now, only 10,000 baht ended up in your fat fingers from the ATM machine (you knew that already, right?). The 150 baht that got stuck in the machine, and later the owner's pocket, is the equivalent of 3.10 quid (using the 48.43 exchange rate). So 209.57 plus 3.10 equals 212.67. Unless you're reimbursed for the 150 baht, Aeon is still cheaper.

And the rate you reported is still curious.

[Pib]

Since the OP said he did the withdrawals on Sat/Sun, I wonder if the Sat withdrawals were done in the morning which would have probably got the Friday exchange based on western world time. Personally I don't know what world timezone Visa/Mastercard uses to switch daily rates, but it's not local Thai time for sure based on my many withdrawals and comparisons to the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate webpages. Maybe it's GMT, maybe it's U.S. Eastern Time, maybe it's ??? This mainly determines the settlement date with the person's bank which would determine the exchange rate charged/used.

For me, when using my Visa debit cards (which are 0% foreign transaction fee cards) in an AEON ATM, I have always got the exchange rate published at the Visa exchange rate site. Now if do a Saturday morning withdrawal and then looking at my U.S. banks IBanking web site just a little later, I see a charge using Visa's exchange rate for Friday hitting my bank accounts. If I do a Saturday afternoon withdrawal I see a Saturday exchange/charge hitting my account.

Also, for the OP: is your card a Visa or Mastercard?

Edited August 8, 2011 by Pib

[Chivas]

Having reread what you put no I didn't effectively pay £212.73 at SCB or higher at Bangkok Bank.

Even though the debit was higher at 10,150 from BB and SCB the overall charge was less.

Ok, your UK statement says 209.57 quid for 10,150 baht. This works out to an exchange rate of 48.43 (which, incidentally, is what the Visa site shows for Aug 1st). Now, only 10,000 baht ended up in your fat fingers from the ATM machine (you knew that already, right?). The 150 baht that got stuck in the machine, and later the owner's pocket, is the equivalent of 3.10 quid (using the 48.43 exchange rate). So 209.57 plus 3.10 equals 212.67. Unless you're reimbursed for the 150 baht, Aeon is still cheaper.

And the rate you reported is still curious.

Ok we could argue semantics all day long. Out of each ATM came 10k.

The bottom line figure on my account which is all I'm interested in indicates that its cheaper to use SCB and BB.(Forget for a moment charging structures,fees etc)

To the other poster it was a Visa Debit card.

[JimGant]

Ok, I'll concede.

That without the 150bt ATM fee you would have paid only 206.47 at BB -- while Aeon was 210.96 -- is very curious. I wonder if this is something new -- or an aberration -- as the previously reported exchange rates at Aeon were in-line with the interbank exchange rate.

Pib, Aeon's 47.20 exchange rate is way removed from the 48+ rate seen Friday thru Monday. Something else is going on....

[Pib]

Are you using the same AEON ATM that you said charges the 150 baht withdrawal fee per your other topic?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/465987-aeon-atms-are-charging-150-baht/page__view__findpost__p__4400624

[Langsuan Man]

Are you using the same AEON ATM that you said charges the 150 baht withdrawal fee per your other topic?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/465987-aeon-atms-are-charging-150-baht/page__view__findpost__p__4400624

Thank you Pib thought that screen name looked familiar

Another red herring me thinks

[Chivas]

Are you using the same AEON ATM that you said charges the 150 baht withdrawal fee per your other topic?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/465987-aeon-atms-are-charging-150-baht/page__view__findpost__p__4400624

Thank you Pib thought that screen name looked familiar

Another red herring me thinks

Yes same ATM that charged on 3 occasions 150 baht in from memory April, May,June until notice was placed on screen with warning (again which I reported here)

If you had bothered to read what I said you would have noticed that I had stated that I had proved to MYSELF that indeed AEON was not cheaper overall, and SUGGESTED that others may like to try same scenario themselves.

No fish in that statement smart arse.

And to Pib theres absolutely no one more boring than someone who trawls through others peoples posts looking for an angle.

Chivas

Edited August 9, 2011 by Chivas

[Chivas]

Ok, I'll concede.

That without the 150bt ATM fee you would have paid only 206.47 at BB -- while Aeon was 210.96 -- is very curious. I wonder if this is something new -- or an aberration -- as the previously reported exchange rates at Aeon were in-line with the interbank exchange rate.

Pib, Aeon's 47.20 exchange rate is way removed from the 48+ rate seen Friday thru Monday. Something else is going on....

Where did you see that rate listed JG ?? Or have you reversed my figures ??

If indeed it is the rate than one or two apologies are in order (not from you).

[Pib]

Are you using the same AEON ATM that you said charges the 150 baht withdrawal fee per your other topic?

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4400624

Thank you Pib thought that screen name looked familiar

Another red herring me thinks

Yes same ATM that charged on 3 occasions 150 baht in from memory April, May,June until notice was placed on screen with warning (again which I reported here)

If you had bothered to read what I said you would have noticed that I had stated that I had proved to MYSELF that indeed AEON was not cheaper overall, and SUGGESTED that others may like to try same scenario themselves.

No fish in that statement smart arse.

And to Pib theres absolutely no one more boring than someone who trawls through others peoples posts looking for an angle.

Chivas

I think you better stay away from that AEON ATM in Buriram as it must not like your debit card. For me in using my two debt cards (Schwab and State Farm banks with 0% foreign transaction fee) in AEON ATMs here in Bangkok I have always, repeat, always got the exact Visa exchange rate where you seem to be getting less compared to Thai bank ATMs. And the few times I've used the cards in a non-AEON ATMs (i.e., Bangkok Bank ATMs to test the fee reimbursement) I also got the exact Visa exchange rate. Don't know what UK bank issued your card or the card's fee structure, but the answer may lie there.

[JimGant]

Where did you see that rate listed JG ?? Or have you reversed my figures ??

Chivas, the 47.20 Aeon exchange rate [miscalculated -- it's actually 47.40] was merely obtained from your figures (10000 bt divided by 210.96 GBPs). And this is where it doesn't quite make sense, unless Aeon is now using dynamic currency conversion (DCC). In which case, Visa requires them to advertise this fact. Otherwise, Aeon cannot establish their own exchange rate, and must use the Visa network rate (as you said your card was Visa).

The published Visa rate for Friday was 48.34. And the rate published Saturday (which projects into Sunday and Monday) was 48.46. These figures are in line with the 48.43 rate you got from BB, and the 48.42 from SCB.

but more interesting was how close SCB and BB were.

Actually, if the rates were completely "locked down," you'd expect to see the same exchange rate for every ATM machine using the Visa/Plus network. The difference suggests some weekend arbitrage going on. By the way, was BB the last ATM you hit, i.e, the furthest removed from Friday's lower rate?

[Chivas]

Where did you see that rate listed JG ?? Or have you reversed my figures ??

Chivas, the 47.20 Aeon exchange rate [miscalculated -- it's actually 47.40] was merely obtained from your figures (10000 bt divided by 210.96 GBPs). And this is where it doesn't quite make sense, unless Aeon is now using dynamic currency conversion (DCC). In which case, Visa requires them to advertise this fact. Otherwise, Aeon cannot establish their own exchange rate, and must use the Visa network rate (as you said your card was Visa).

The published Visa rate for Friday was 48.34. And the rate published Saturday (which projects into Sunday and Monday) was 48.46. These figures are in line with the 48.43 rate you got from BB, and the 48.42 from SCB.

but more interesting was how close SCB and BB were.

Actually, if the rates were completely "locked down," you'd expect to see the same exchange rate for every ATM machine using the Visa/Plus network. The difference suggests some weekend arbitrage going on. By the way, was BB the last ATM you hit, i.e, the furthest removed from Friday's lower rate?

The AEON and SCB were together late Saturday Thai time around 8pm and allowing for time difference so that 2400 hours had passed the Bangkok Bank was on the Sunday around 11.20 am Thai time.

I couldn't use all 3 ATMS same day as bank card limit is £500 a day.

[JimGant]

The AEON and SCB were together late Saturday Thai time

Is it possible you transposed the Aeon and SCB transactions? It sounds like SCB might have joined the ranks of the DCC scoundrels, at least from limited info, like the following thread from TV:

In which case SCB's FX rate would have been the one resembling 47.40

However, the amount of sterling you would have seen for Aeon would have been in the neighborhood of 206.50.

Oh well. I love a good mystery. Sorry it's at your expense.

[Chivas]

The AEON and SCB were together late Saturday Thai time

Is it possible you transposed the Aeon and SCB transactions? It sounds like SCB might have joined the ranks of the DCC scoundrels, at least from limited info, like the following thread from TV:

In which case SCB's FX rate would have been the one resembling 47.40

However, the amount of sterling you would have seen for Aeon would have been in the neighborhood of 206.50.

Oh well. I love a good mystery. Sorry it's at your expense.

JG

No problem and certainly no mystery. Have "known" for some time but could only prove it in country doing the transactions myself.

[vagabond48]

I have been using AEON for several years and I use an US Visa DC. I record my transaction in my accounting spreadsheet. I consistently get about 99.5% of the exchange rate listed on x-rates. It has ranged from a low of 99.3% to a high of 100.4%. I usually take out only 1000 to 4000baht so if the 150baht was included as a hidden cost, my baht/dollar would be significantly lower especially when withdrawing lower amounts.

Edited August 10, 2011 by vagabond48

[Pib]

I have been using AEON for several years and I use an US Visa DC. I record my transaction in my accounting spreadsheet. I consistently get about 99.5% of the exchange rate listed on x-rates. It has ranged from a low of 99.3% to a high of 100.4%. I usually take out only 1000 to 4000baht so if the 150baht was included as a hidden cost, my baht/dollar would be significantly lower especially when withdrawing lower amounts.

Any fee the ATM charges, like a 150 baht foreign card fee that Thai banks charge, is suppose to be displayed on the screen/printed out on the ATM receipt. Now whether your bank displays it on your account as a separate fee may be different story...appears some do and some don't. Of course any additional fee(s) the bank that issued your card is a different story as banks seem to have foreign transaction fees ranging from 0% to 5%, with many of them in the 2 to 3% range. Fortunately my U.S. Visa Debt cards charge 0% which means they also eat the Visa fee that is passed along and talked about below. The below cut and pastes from the FAQ section of the Visa exchange rate page talk a little about how Visa develops its exchange rate. It even mentions that banks can adjust the rates when billing customers. I don't know if that means they can charge a fee which effectively adjust the rates, or they can actually adjust the core rate. I did underlined some important points I think are important.

For me, with my Schwab and State Farm Visa debit cards, I have always got the exact Visa exchange rate, so it doesn't appear my two banks adjust the rates. And since the Visa exchange rate usually beat the TT Buying Rate of my Thai bank this means means it's cheaper for me to get money through the ATM than wire/SWIFT myself money...I also avoid wire/SWIFT fees by using an ATM...and no ATM fees as I always use an AEON ATM...plus I have the money immediately in hand versus waiting several business days.

Seems many folks have different experiences with their Visa/Mastercard debit and credit cards due to the array of fees and policies the issuing banks may apply....and of course the array of fees are driven by the bank's business model (i.e., degree of greed), country based in, etc.

************************************************************

How does Visa calculate its rate?

Every day—except weekends, Memorial Day, Christmas Day and New Year's Day—Visa calculates the rate for the next day's transactions. The Visa rate is selected from a range of rates available in wholesale currency markets or the government-mandated rate in effect one day prior to the applicable central processing date. Visa makes this rate available to issuing banks, which may adjust the rate when billing cardholders by applying a foreign transaction fee. The rate Visa makes available to issuing banks may vary from the rate Visa itself receives. Most consumers find that using Visa is a convenient and cost-effective way to make purchases and obtain cash when traveling internationally.

What is Visa's fee structure for international transactions?

Visa Inc. does not assess any fees to cardholders or merchants. Visa applies International Service Assessment (ISA) fees ranging from 0.15 to 1 percent to its financial institution partners for their use of the global payment system.

The fees are paid by financial institutions on transactions that require the use of our global infrastructure. Since Visa does not assess any fees to cardholders or merchants, we have no involvement in financial institution pricing to cardholders or merchants. If financial institutions or merchants decide to assess a foreign transaction fee to their customers, they are required to provide details to their cardholders and consumers.

As part of Visa's international functionality, Visa has offered international processing services to its financial institutions for more than twenty years. Over the years, Visa has become a symbol of international acceptance, and Visa views its global support services as paramount to providing its cardholders with superior value and benefits.

***********************************************************

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Yawn....this has been explained to the 'financial expert of 26 years' time and again.

What he has not told you is that his Visa Debit card carves out a 2.75% commission on overseas use. Plus another £1.50(that he has not included).

If you use your Visa debit card abroad, there will be a service fee of £1.50 plus a currency conversion fee of 2.75% of the total amount, for each transaction. Overseas cash machine providers may also charge for cash withdrawals.

Visa rate on Saturday was 48.58. Minus the 2.75% commission taken by his bank; that brings us to 47.28. He claims to have received 47.40, so in fact he got an even better rate with AEON than listed on the Visa Europe website.

If he used a zero rated card, his bill using AEON would have been £205.84 or less.

So he is bolstering his argument by providing tainted and incomplete disinformation.

I would provide a breakdown for SCB and BB, but since his figures are incomplete, I cannot be expected to do so. He needs to state all of the charges levied.

I suspect that the Thai banks charging 150 baht may be bypassing the Visa/Mastercard network fee in order to include their 150 baht fee. So they may use the bank sight bill or TT rate, add their fee and present to your home bank in your home currency.

I can't confirm this as I'm not in-country and Chivas's reports tend to only contain the information that he wants you to see. Someone needs to to tell the man to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's not the first time he has been economical with the truth.

There is nothing wrong with admitting that you were wrong. People respect you more for doing that, than bluffing your way through an argument.

[Chivas]

Yawn....this has been explained to the 'financial expert of 26 years' time and again.

What he has not told you is that his Visa Debit card carves out a 2.75% commission on overseas use. Plus another £1.50(that he has not included).

If you use your Visa debit card abroad, there will be a service fee of £1.50 plus a currency conversion fee of 2.75% of the total amount, for each transaction. Overseas cash machine providers may also charge for cash withdrawals.

Visa rate on Saturday was 48.58. Minus the 2.75% commission taken by his bank; that brings us to 47.28. He claims to have received 47.40, so in fact he got an even better rate with AEON than listed on the Visa Europe website.

If he used a zero rated card, his bill using AEON would have been £205.84 or less.

So he is bolstering his argument by providing tainted and incomplete disinformation.

I would provide a breakdown for SCB and BB, but since his figures are incomplete, I cannot be expected to do so. He needs to state all of the charges levied.

I suspect that the Thai banks charging 150 baht may be bypassing the Visa/Mastercard network fee in order to include their 150 baht fee. So they may use the bank sight bill or TT rate, add their fee and present to your home bank in your home currency.

I can't confirm this as I'm not in-country and Chivas's reports tend to only contain the information that he wants you to see. Someone needs to to tell the man to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's not the first time he has been economical with the truth.

There is nothing wrong with admitting that you were wrong. People respect you more for doing that, than bluffing your way through an argument.

And what this total layman STILL hasn't grasped but others have at least seemed to, is that it didn't/doesn't matter WHAT charges are levied if the SAME ATM CARD is used throughout the transaction. Now dont respond again until you grasp that point.

How much more simpler can I make this for you ?

Again, it is the BOTTOM line on the account thats REAL, nothing else.

[Chivas]

Yawn....this has been explained to the 'financial expert of 26 years' time and again.

What he has not told you is that his Visa Debit card carves out a 2.75% commission on overseas use. Plus another £1.50(that he has not included).

If you use your Visa debit card abroad, there will be a service fee of £1.50 plus a currency conversion fee of 2.75% of the total amount, for each transaction. Overseas cash machine providers may also charge for cash withdrawals.

Visa rate on Saturday was 48.58. Minus the 2.75% commission taken by his bank; that brings us to 47.28. He claims to have received 47.40, so in fact he got an even better rate with AEON than listed on the Visa Europe website.

If he used a zero rated card, his bill using AEON would have been £205.84 or less.

So he is bolstering his argument by providing tainted and incomplete disinformation.

I would provide a breakdown for SCB and BB, but since his figures are incomplete, I cannot be expected to do so. He needs to state all of the charges levied.

I suspect that the Thai banks charging 150 baht may be bypassing the Visa/Mastercard network fee in order to include their 150 baht fee. So they may use the bank sight bill or TT rate, add their fee and present to your home bank in your home currency.

I can't confirm this as I'm not in-country and Chivas's reports tend to only contain the information that he wants you to see. Someone needs to to tell the man to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's not the first time he has been economical with the truth.

There is nothing wrong with admitting that you were wrong. People respect you more for doing that, than bluffing your way through an argument.

And what this total layman STILL hasn't grasped but others have at least seemed to, is that it didn't/doesn't matter WHAT charges are levied if the SAME ATM CARD is used throughout the transaction. Now dont respond again until you grasp that point.

How much more simpler can I make this for you ?

Again, it is the BOTTOM line on the account thats REAL, nothing else.

For some reason previous post cannot be edited HOWEVER

Have spent the last 45 minutes trawling back through search function for AEON withdrawals something thats boring as shight, but a speciality of members like JJ, but sadly brought up rather more alarming facts re AEON atms or to be more specific their NON use.

Repeated time and time again at different locations these "free" ATM's have an alarming habit according to TV members to issue a beautiful receipt and absolutely nothing else.

Use them at your peril.

[4evermaat]

........

I would provide a breakdown for SCB and BB, but since his figures are incomplete, I cannot be expected to do so. He needs to state all of the charges levied.

I suspect that the Thai banks charging 150 baht may be bypassing the Visa/Mastercard network fee in order to include their 150 baht fee. So they may use the bank sight bill or TT rate, add their fee and present to your home bank in your home currency.

........

After checking and comparing TT rates to how much I withdrew and then going back to internet banking to re-calculate the rate (i used to do this to maximize the amount I could take out with fee, I can confirm that thai banks use the TT rates. They do change during the bank business day, so you can refresh the link on your phone or browser prior to going to the ATM for the latest.

For some reason previous post cannot be edited HOWEVER

Have spent the last 45 minutes trawling back through search function for AEON withdrawals something thats boring as shight, but a speciality of members like JJ, but sadly brought up rather more alarming facts re AEON atms or to be more specific their NON use.

Repeated time and time again at different locations these "free" ATM's have an alarming habit according to TV members to issue a beautiful receipt and absolutely nothing else.

Use them at your peril.

The only time I had problem with Aeon was at the Siam Paragon location (bottom floor below food court where UPS counter is). It had a network error and would not give my money, then handed my card back. I went to watch movie, then came back down and tried again. There was a thai person who was waiting to use the ATM and when he saw i had problems, he commented in english that the ATM was still having problems. I checked online banking and no money withdrawn.

I've used AEON atm at Big C near Pantip, Tesco Lotus in Fortune IT mall, Rama 2 Big C, Big C Ubon [town] Rachathani, near Ocean Mall in Chumphon Town. Got my money with no problems, no 150 baht atm fee, and 8.5/10 got the best exchange rate. There was 2 times where i saw that the thai banks TT rate beat the Aeon rate by about 7-10 satang. Maybe they are only giving snapshots of the Visa retail rate and not using real-time updates?

Anyway, the AEON atms are a bit generic on the outside (the older ones), but once you walk up to the screen, it is virtually unmistakable what atm you are using. After a while, your eyes are trained to see them from afar. Too bad there are not more of them.

edit: if you do not have aeon atm nearby or in route to one of your regular destinations, then it is not worth the trouble. Taking advantage of the AEON atm is one of those "since I'm going there anyway, I might as well" things.

Edited August 12, 2011 by 4evermaat

[JimGant]

I suspect that the Thai banks charging 150 baht may be bypassing the Visa/Mastercard network fee in order to include their 150 baht fee. So they may use the bank sight bill or TT rate, add their fee and present to your home bank in your home currency.

The Thai banks owning the ATM machines can't change the MC/Visa network fee (nor would it add to their bottom line if they could). This is the fee the networks charge the issuing bank -- normally, 1% (and which the issuing bank can choose to pass on to the card holder). Also, the ATM owners don't mess around with the network's conversion rate. (-- unless using, and declaring, Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC)). The exchange rate makes no difference to them -- they get a flat fee per transaction. And, if they charge 150 bt, this comes back when they're reimbursed for the 25000 baht dispersal, i.e., they get 25150 baht -- what was charged to the cardholder -- delivered to their coffers (plus flat fee). They could care less what the exchange rate was that required X number of dollars to buy 25150 baht.

And even with DCC, the ATM owners can't mess with the networks's foreign transaction fee, which the networks get even tho' conversion is now taking place by the ATM owners and their acquiring banks. And, again, this fee is profit for the networks, not the ATM owners, so messing with it makes no sense.

But by screwing you, the cardholder, with their self-declared higher conversion rates, they get a nice spread, by using the networks' favorable exchange rate to repatriate those inflated DCC dollars -- to buy, say, 26000 baht. That neat profit is divided between the ATM owner and his acquiring bank. Now, the networks can still smile somewhat, because their 1% fee is a percent of your dollars -- which under DCC are now, say, $900, not a more favorable (to you) $887.

The exchange rate you get (accept for DCC) is that dictated by the networks. It is pretty close to the TT rate -- in fact, today's Visa FX site posted 29.8 baht to the USD. This is posted 11:00 AM Thai time. The TT rate for the day also hovered around 29.8. Over time, you'll find that Visa rates (again, with USD) are 6 to 7 satang better than the TT rate. MC is 9 to 10 satang below TT.