In Bkk Many Years, Fed Up With Usa, Getting New Citizenship

[CBinParadise]

I'm a US citizen, have lived in BKK for many years on a retirement visa. Not married, but have been with wonderful Thai woman for 8+ years. Have nontrivial money in Thai banks in my name. Plan to stay in Thailand rest of my life (if they let me).

I love my country of birth, don't want to start political flame-fest, but for religious/spiritual/ethical reasons I feel compelled to relinquish my US citizenship. I have given this the most careful consideration for three years. I have acquired citizenship in a non-US, non-Thai nation --- call it country X --- and my passport for that nation is on its way. Nationals of X can get Thai retirement visas, but they must apply by mail at the Thai embassy in Ottawa, Canada --- starting from scratch, with police reports, certified birth certs, etc etc etc. Oddly enough, since I already live in BKK, my background report will come from the Thai police, my med questionnaire from Bumrungrad, and all the notarization would be done at this law firm: http://www.suwatlaw.com/

That URL is a little thank-you to all who have read this far --- it is now possible to get notarizations done in BKK other than at the embassies (!)

Here's my main questions:

1. what "immigration district" does BKK fall into? The 1st? I hope to contact some senior executive in Thai immigrations for advice on some tricky questions involving the switch from my US to my X passport. I have tried visiting Chalermprakiat but nobody there could tell me anything useful.

2. Does anyone have an email address for (the secretary of) Commander, Immigration Division 1, Police Maj.Gen. Permpoon Chidchob (assuming he's the right person to ask)?

3. Has anybody been through this process or anything similar?

Thanks ...

[moe666]

There are some pinned post about residency and citizenship. I donot think you qualify as a retiree typically people applying for and being granted citizenship work here and pay taxes.

Check out the post on these subjects very good and informative

[lopburi3]

He is not asking about Thai citizenship it seems but about change of passport country for his retirement extensions of stay which I suspect will require he start over on an entry with new passport.

You do not need a retirement visa in order to stay in Thailand on retirement extensions of stay. Just a non immigrant visa entry. Which can be a single entry non immigrant O visa issued by a Consulate anywhere on the basis of being 50 years or older and checking on retirement to a tourist or visa exempt entry and then a change to non immigrant at Immigration with proof of 800k in bank account. No medical or police repoort is required. 2,000 baht for a visa or change of status and then the normal 1,900 baht for extension of stay.

[Soutpeel]

There are some pinned post about residency and citizenship. I donot think you qualify as a retiree typically people applying for and being granted citizenship work here and pay taxes.

Check out the post on these subjects very good and informative

The OP is not asking about getting Thai PR or citizenship...

Thinlk the OP is making this more complicated than it really is and it appears he is applying for a O-A visa, where an O and extend on the basis of retirement would be eaiser...ie no police reports etc.....if married why mess with a O-A retirement visa, just get one based on marriage.

The one thing that puzzles me is why the OP will not state the new nationality....why all this "country X" BS...OP to get proper info you need to supply all the relevant info to get a proper answer.

It would appear to me that the OP needs to cancel his current retirement visa based on his current passport, depart country to surrounding country, get Nom-imm O, seeing as married could be based on marriage or retirement and return to Thailand on new PP, life goes on....

Seems all very cloak and dagger to me, are we sure the legal company being used is not winding the OP up to inflate their costs, as could do this without a lawyer, police reports or all kinds of documents notarised...

[CBinParadise]

There are some pinned post about residency and citizenship. I donot think you qualify as a retiree typically people applying for and being granted citizenship work here and pay taxes.

Check out the post on these subjects very good and informative

The OP is not asking about getting Thai PR or citizenship...

Thinlk the OP is making this more complicated than it really is and it appears he is applying for a O-A visa, where an O and extend on the basis of retirement would be eaiser...ie no police reports etc.....if married why mess with a O-A retirement visa, just get one based on marriage.

The one thing that puzzles me is why the OP will not state the new nationality....why all this "country X" BS...OP to get proper info you need to supply all the relevant info to get a proper answer.

It would appear to me that the OP needs to cancel his current retirement visa based on his current passport, depart country to surrounding country, get Nom-imm O, seeing as married could be based on marriage or retirement and return to Thailand on new PP, life goes on....

Seems all very cloak and dagger to me, are we sure the legal company being used is not winding the OP up to inflate their costs, as could do this without a lawyer, police reports or all kinds of documents notarised...

I will (by law) need to appear at the US embassy to renounce my US citizenship when I get the new passport. There is nothing cloak and dagger about any of this --- it's just that I prefer to to keep my plans unofficial until I'm ready to start the official process. If you wish, send me a PM and I'll tell you what country X is.

Before I made my original post, I searched the forums for "change citizenship" and "new nationality" --- you are right, there are many posts that match those topics. I read 50 or 100 of them, and could not find anything relevant to my case.

I am curious why you think I'm making this more complicated than it must be. If there is some easier way to do this I would be happy to learn of it. I am NOT married as I said i my OP, so I don't see how to apply your recommendations. In particular, I thought that there was just one type of retirement visa --- an O-A non-imm. I don't understand what 'get an O on a retirement basis' means.

Finally, as to the law firm, I have used them on multiple occasions to send official documents to various government agencies in multiple nations --- and their notarizations have been accepted by all. Their prices are certainly cheaper than the embassy's. I hate to recommend any law firm, since your experience may be different than mine was --- but I personally was delighted to find this outfit, and have been completely satisfied with their work. I thought the people reading my post would like to know about this option. Caveat emptor.

Thank you sincerely for your suggestions.

[Soutpeel]

I am curious why you think I'm making this more complicated than it must be. If there is some easier way to do this I would be happy to learn of it. I am NOT married as I said i my OP, so I don't see how to apply your recommendations. In particular, I thought that there was just one type of retirement visa --- an O-A non-imm. I don't understand what 'get an O on a retirement basis' means.

Finally, as to the law firm, I have used them on multiple occasions to send official documents to various government agencies in multiple nations --- and their notarizations have been accepted by all. Their prices are certainly cheaper than the embassy's. I hate to recommend any law firm, since your experience may be different than mine was --- but I personally was delighted to find this outfit, and have been completely satisfied with their work. I thought the people reading my post would like to know about this option. Caveat emptor.

Thank you sincerely for your suggestions.

Apologies about the married visa...mis read your post, but you are still ,making this very complicated, the O-A visa is not the only method of being being in Thailand on retirement, Read "Lopburi3's" post below mine, you dont need police reports etc etc...there is a far simpler way, provided you have THB 800k in a Thai bank and you dont need a law firm to do any of this, you can do it yourself.

Your only complication as far as I can see is if you "cancelled" your US passport in Thailand before leaving to go and get your new "O" or tourist visa in the new PP, get the new PP sorted out first then cancel you US PP

PS dont need to PM about the identity of "country X".....it ocurred to me re-reading your first post...where you have to sent the new passport to so you can get a new visa if going the O-A route.....

Edited August 16, 2011 by Soutpeel

[CWMcMurray]

I am guessing that since to need to apply for visa in Canada, there is a good chance that country X is Canada... but it really doesn't matter.

As other have said you do not need to jump through all of the hoops for an O-A visa (multiple entry good for 1 yr) if you can qualify for a retirement extension.

Just fly out on your US passport to one of the neighboring countries and request a single entry O visa for the reason of retirement (good for 3 months) or you can even get a tourist visa (good for 60 days) in your Canadian Passport. Then fly back to Thailand on your new passport.

Then during the last 30 days of your single entry O you can go down to immigration and extend for the reason of retirement (800k in the Bank or 65 k in monthly salary - over 50).

If you come back in on Tourist visa, then once you get back in, go down to immigration to change visa from Tourist to O and immediately extend for the purpose of retirement. Need to ensure you have at least 21 days on your tourist visa left and that you meet all of the requirements for retirement extension.

Then once your new visa status is all set on your new passport... then go to the US embassy to renounce your citizenship if you want...

Edited August 16, 2011 by CWMcMurray

[mahjongguy]

I'm glad to see that the OP got good and correct answers regarding the steps he needs to take, and I hope it all works out to his satisfaction.

For others who may have similar religious/spiritual/ethical reasons for considering such an act, note these two points:

- as an ex-citizen, one would no longer need to pay U.S. taxes on non-U.S. earnings

- as an ex-citizen, one would not receive Social Security

[Mario2008]

The O_A visa is for retirement, with a pre-aproved stay of 1 year. However, based on retirement you can also get a non-O visa, on which entry you can get a stay of 90 days.

Both visa's can be gotten single or multiple. A single is good for 1 entry, a multiple for unlimited entries during the time the visa is valdi (1 year). Ech time you enter Thailand with a multiple you get a stay of 1 year resp. 90 days. By leaving and re-entering just beofre the visa expires you get a new permission to stay. In this way you cna get 2 years out of a multiple O-A and 15 months out of a multiple non-O.

After that you can either apply for a enw visa abroad or apply for an extension of stay, the criteria for the extension of stay is the same as there is only one extension based on retirement.

The O-A has a longer initial permisisoin to stay and carries more criteria. You must apply for it in the country of residence and submit a medical certificate and a police check from all the countries you have lived in. The non-O can be applied for in any country and doesn't require a mdeical or police check. Only check of sufficient funds.

[TerryLH]

"...as an ex-citizen, one would no longer need to pay U.S. taxes on non-U.S. earnings"

With about a USD 90K exemption for overseas earned income, many don't have to pay, even if they remain US citizens.

The mention of soc sec was a good tip.

The OP said he has been thinking about this for several years, so he probably factored that in.

Non O = much easier.

Good luck OP.

[Soutpeel]

For others who may have similar religious/spiritual/ethical reasons for considering such an act, note these two points:

- as an ex-citizen, one would no longer need to pay U.S. taxes on non-U.S. earnings

- as an ex-citizen, one would not receive Social Security

Suppose most people would see your first point a real benefit.....

on the second point no great loss I would think....

It appears the OP is getting Canadian citizenship/pp....social security/benefits/medical is far better in Canada than US....

It appears the OP is on to a winner IMHO....

Therefore in conclusion, if the OP has no wish to ever live in the US ever again as a citizen, giving up his citizenship/passport appears to be no great loss and in fact he is coming out the deal better off...

[lanny]

For others who may have similar religious/spiritual/ethical reasons for considering such an act, note these two points:

- as an ex-citizen, one would no longer need to pay U.S. taxes on non-U.S. earnings

- as an ex-citizen, one would not receive Social Security

This is not, strictly speaking, accurate.

There are requirements for anyone abandoning US citizenship to pay a tax on making such election. So, though the need to keep filing returns and paying taxes every year, there are tax consequences to doing so. If OP, or anyone else, has substantial net worth, these consequences can be quite severe.

Social security does not stop on giving up citizenship. SS benefits are based on work history, are an entitlement, and citizenship is not a criteria.

[lanny]

"...as an ex-citizen, one would no longer need to pay U.S. taxes on non-U.S. earnings"

With about a USD 90K exemption for overseas earned income, many don't have to pay, even if they remain US citizens.

The mention of soc sec was a good tip.

The OP said he has been thinking about this for several years, so he probably factored that in.

Non O = much easier.

Good luck OP.

OP says he is on a retirement visa, so he cannot be earning anything in Thailand that would qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion.

[TerryLH]

Lanny, My post was in response to someone else's post, not the OP.

"...social security/benefits/medical is far better in Canada than US"

Probably not for folks joining the system later in life.

[mahjongguy]

- as an ex-citizen, one would not receive Social Security

Sorry. It seems that was incorrect, though spousal benefits are generally not paid.

[chiang mai]

For others who may have similar religious/spiritual/ethical reasons for considering such an act, note these two points:

- as an ex-citizen, one would no longer need to pay U.S. taxes on non-U.S. earnings

- as an ex-citizen, one would not receive Social Security

This is not, strictly speaking, accurate.

There are requirements for anyone abandoning US citizenship to pay a tax on making such election. So, though the need to keep filing returns and paying taxes every year, there are tax consequences to doing so. If OP, or anyone else, has substantial net worth, these consequences can be quite severe.

Social security does not stop on giving up citizenship. SS benefits are based on work history, are an entitlement, and citizenship is not a criteria.

Except that, as a non-resident alien the OP's SSC benefits will be taxable at source, 24.5% deducted without a chance of recovery or offset.

[partington]

A couple of hopefully helpful points:

1. It will almost certainly help the OP tax-wise to abandon US citizenship, as he is retired, and the US earned-income exclusion of $90,000 for citizens abroad is exactly that: an earned-income exclusion-- it does not apply to interest, dividends, capital gains, and so on, which many retirees will be living on.

2. It is true that abandoning US citizenship can have potentially disastrous tax consequences, but only to very rich people: those whose assets at the time of leaving are more than $2million, or whose average annual income tax payments over the previous five years are around $145, 000--criteria which exclude a vast majority of people. ( If this is the case you are deemed to have sold those assets on the day you leave and must pay tax on all of them. This includes any retirement plans even if you are years away from withdrawing money from them.)

A final tax declaration stating your assets on the day of leaving and declaring your tax payments for the previous 5 years does have to be made, but that generally ends the liability,if you do not meet the "super rich" criteria.

3 As pointed out above, social security payments can be made and are made to non-citizens abroad. However there is a complicated algorithm applied that will reduce your payments in proportion to any work related state pension payments that are being made to you by your country of citizenship. Not fair since you have paid the same into the scheme as US citizens , but there it is.

Also , as pointed out above, you are taxed automatically on the social security payments at source with no possibility of refund; as far as I am aware this is at a flat rate of 30% not 24.5%. So they do punish you by reducing your social security payments, and you have no recourse. (see below)

Section 871 of the Internal RevenueCode imposes a 30% rate of tax withholding on the U.S. income of noncitizens who live outside the country (unless a lower rate is established by treaty) because there is no practical way for the U.S. government to determine the income of such persons. Under the withholding, noncitizens who reside outside the United States pay 30% of the maximum taxable amount of Social Security benefits (85%) in federal income taxes. For example, the tax withholding on an annual Social Security benefit of $12,000 would be $3,060 [($12,000 x 0.85) x 0.30]

Edited August 16, 2011 by partington

[JusMe]

If you don't mind answering, how did you acquire citizenship of country X while living in Thailand? Did it involve paying $XX,XXX or $XXX,XXX? Or did you manage to get it through family descent somehow?

This is an interesting question, and the answer could bring other considerations regarding tax into play.

If the OP acquired Canadian citizenship, it must have involved some kind of residency. (The government is currently going after some individuals who have faked that residency, living in other countries while pretending to live in Canada in order to qualify for citizenship.)

As a Canadian resident, one is required to pay tax not only on his Canadian earnings, but on his entire worldwide income. Money from anywhere is liable to Canadian income tax!

[Mario2008]

That goes for almost any country, but is normally only the main rule. Many countries have tax treaties with other countries, in which they make other rules regarding taxation and exchange of information.

I suspect it is the same with Canada.

[samran]

I think we are only hypothesising that he's gotten a Canadian PP. If so, fine, but if he's managed to secure a passport of a country which sells citizenship, then he should be aware of the travel restrictions that will impose on him given he's likely to need a visa to visit countries to which he was previously able to travel freely.

[Soutpeel]

If the OP acquired Canadian citizenship, it must have involved some kind of residency. (

Why ?.....he could have aquired citiizenship by direct descent.....ie say father American, mother Canadian, he would be entitled to both citizenships and maybe never exercised his right to Canadian citizenship until now......this would not require him to ever visit Canada or be resident in the country.

In a similar vein know many people who have British PP/citiizenship and have never been to mud island

[JimGant]

As pointed out above, social security payments can be made and are made to non-citizens abroad. However there is a complicated algorithm applied that will reduce your payments in proportion to any work related state pension payments that are being made to you by your country of citizenship. Not fair since you have paid the same into the scheme as US citizens , but there it is.

Actually, completely fair, since if your Social Security covered wages are at the low end -- because you worked another job not paying FICA taxes, but which also provides a pension -- you'll be treated same as a poor dude, who worked a lifetime at minimum wage. A poor dude can get an SS benefit equal to 55% of his pre-retirement wages. A rich guy, 25%, or less. The Windfall Elimination Provision law does just as its title suggests, eliminating backing into a socially progressive benefit due to none FICA wages earned elsewhere.

Not completely full-proof, however, a since poor little rich kid, who dabbles part-time in an avocation covered by Social Security, can also realize the poor dude's 55% benefit -- assuming he's dabbled for the 10 years required -- and that any other work had no pension associated with it.

[JimGant]

As a Canadian resident, one is required to pay tax not only on his Canadian earnings, but on his entire worldwide income. Money from anywhere is liable to Canadian income tax!

Ah, the operative word being "resident." Pretty neat, since Canadian expats can still keep their citizenship, but give up their residency (essentially, cutting most ties with Canada) to avoid Canadian taxes. The US, of course, has no such provision. In fact, it's sometimes hard to cut your 'residency' from a particular state to avoid its state income tax.

[Soutpeel]

As a Canadian resident, one is required to pay tax not only on his Canadian earnings, but on his entire worldwide income. Money from anywhere is liable to Canadian income tax!

Ah, the operative word being "resident." Pretty neat, since Canadian expats can still keep their citizenship, but give up their residency (essentially, cutting most ties with Canada) to avoid Canadian taxes. The US, of course, has no such provision. In fact, it's sometimes hard to cut your 'residency' from a particular state to avoid its state income tax.

Yeap Canada is the same as the UK.....you maintain your citizenship, but can become Non-resident for tax purposes, many commonwealth countries the same.

So if the US hadn't insisted on fighting a war of independance and remained a colony....they too could have enjoyed this benefit today....

[taxout]

To avoid the draconian rules that apply to those with significant income or assets who expatriate, the OP has to timely file Form 8854, or he'll nonetheless be subject to those draconian rules, regardless of his income or assets. This is pretty important.

http://www.irs.gov/b...d=97245,00.html

(The nominal withholding tax rate is 30 percent, but since part of each social security payment includes a return to you of some of the payment you originally made into the system, you're taxed only the earnings deemed to have accrued in your social security account. To keep life simple, the IRS just treats 85 percent of each payment as taxable earnings, the rest as a non-taxable return of capital. So 30 percent of 85 percent is how you get the effective withholding tax rate. Tax treaties may lower this further in some cases.)

Edited August 18, 2011 by taxout

[OriginalPoster]

As a Canadian resident, one is required to pay tax not only on his Canadian earnings, but on his entire worldwide income. Money from anywhere is liable to Canadian income tax!

Ah, the operative word being "resident." Pretty neat, since Canadian expats can still keep their citizenship, but give up their residency (essentially, cutting most ties with Canada) to avoid Canadian taxes. The US, of course, has no such provision. In fact, it's sometimes hard to cut your 'residency' from a particular state to avoid its state income tax.

Yeap Canada is the same as the UK.....you maintain your citizenship, but can become Non-resident for tax purposes, many commonwealth countries the same.

So if the US hadn't insisted on fighting a war of independance and remained a colony....they too could have enjoyed this benefit today....

Yes, and we would have had free medical coverage, superior manners, and a sense of irony to boot.

[JusMe]

As a Canadian resident, one is required to pay tax not only on his Canadian earnings, but on his entire worldwide income. Money from anywhere is liable to Canadian income tax!

Ah, the operative word being "resident." Pretty neat, since Canadian expats can still keep their citizenship, but give up their residency (essentially, cutting most ties with Canada) to avoid Canadian taxes. The US, of course, has no such provision. In fact, it's sometimes hard to cut your 'residency' from a particular state to avoid its state income tax.

The devil is in the detail of cutting those ties. Anything can be considered a tie and therefore justification for Revenue Canada to claim you owe taxes on everything you earn worldwide.

No credit card, no bank account, no investments, no real property - in order to be officially non-resident, you must cut all ties. I remember years ago someone who even transferred for storage an expensive saddle, to friends in Montana. He knew Revenue Canada could claim that he had valuable property in Canada, and therefore owed tax on all his earnings.

[snarky66]

Suggest you watch Steven Crowder's youtube videos of the free health care.

[Richard4849]

As a Canadian resident, one is required to pay tax not only on his Canadian earnings, but on his entire worldwide income. Money from anywhere is liable to Canadian income tax!

Ah, the operative word being "resident." Pretty neat, since Canadian expats can still keep their citizenship, but give up their residency (essentially, cutting most ties with Canada) to avoid Canadian taxes. The US, of course, has no such provision. In fact, it's sometimes hard to cut your 'residency' from a particular state to avoid its state income tax.

Yeap Canada is the same as the UK.....you maintain your citizenship, but can become Non-resident for tax purposes, many commonwealth countries the same.

So if the US hadn't insisted on fighting a war of independance and remained a colony....they too could have enjoyed this benefit today....

Yes, and we would have had free medical coverage, superior manners, and a sense of irony to boot.

If the general medical care in the UK is as good as the dental care appears to be...you can have it.

[snarky66]

The facts.

http://tinyurl.com/lhv354