Laos aims to build Mekong dam this year, testing it's neighbours

[Lite Beer]

Laos aims to build Mekong dam this year, testing neighbours

By Bloomberg, The Nation

Laos wants to start construction this year on the $3.8 billion (Bt115 billion) Thai-financed Xayaburi hydropower plant on the Mekong River after changing the design of the dam to placate neighbouring countries opposed to the project.

Laos completed a review of the dam recently to ease concerns in three neighbouring countries that it would harm rice production and fish catches downstream.

Environmental groups say the project will endanger the livelihoods of tens of thousands of people on the fragile Tonle Sap lake in Cambodia, and cause grave damage to rice growers in the Mekong Delta in southern Vietnam, which is also threatened by rising sea levels. Villagers in riverside communities in Thailand also oppose the dam, which could be the first of up to a dozen proposed on the lower Mekong.

Early this year, Hanoi recommended a 10-year delay on all hydropower projects on the river, which flows from China through Burma, Thailand and Cambodia to the delta in southern Vietnam.

Viraphonh Viravong, director-general of Laos' Ministry of Energy and Mines' Department of Electricity, said in an interview in Hanoi last week: "We would like to start toward the end of this year when the dry season comes. We want to explain and make the other countries comfortable. If they are still very negative about it, of course we will spend some more time on it."

The hydropower dam is the first among eight that Laos plans to build on the Mekong to expand Southeast Asia's smallest economy by selling power to neighbouring countries. The landlocked nation may have about 38,000 megawatts of installed capacity supply by 2020, about 15 times greater than its domestic needs, according to a presentation by state-owned Electricite du Laos at a conference in Hanoi on Thursday.

Laos presented the project review conducted by Switzerland-based Poyry Energy AG to Vietnam and plans to meet separately with Thai and Cambodian officials to discuss recommendations, Viraphonh said. Vientiane claims it can decide if it will proceed with the project at any point.

In April, Laos proposed to end a review of Xayaburi called for under a 1995 agreement between the Mekong countries requiring prior consultations before building hydropower plants on the river. Officials agreed then to hold a ministerial meeting later this year to discuss the project, but that has yet to take place.

"Laos has no right to go forward on the project by itself," said Ame Trandem, Southeast Asia programme director for International Rivers, a Berkeley, California-based non-profit group that aims to protect rivers and human rights. "By doing so it will violate the 1995 Mekong agreement and the spirit of regional cooperation."

Poyry's review found that Xayaburi's design was in accordance with preliminary design guidelines from the Mekong River Commission, an inter-governmental body, and other international design manuals, Viraphonh said in a presentation. The firm recommended improvements for sediment transport and fish-passing facilities, he said.

Poyry was confident "any potential long-term trans-boundary impacts on the downstream region would be insignificant" if the recommended design changes are implemented, according to the presentation.

"Look, this has been reviewed by an independent engineer, very famous in the world," Viraphonh said. "And if they say 'yes, you can go ahead', why not?"

Thailand agreed in December to buy 95 per cent of the electricity from the plant, which will have a capacity of 1,285 megawatts, but the Abhisit government later withdrew support for the dam amid a chorus of opposition early this year.

Ch Karnchang Plc, Thailand's third-biggest construction firm by market value, owns a 57.5-per-cent stake in Xayaburi. Supamas Trivisvavet, an executive vice president at the company, declined to comment when reached by phone on Friday.

PTT Plc, Thailand's biggest energy company, has a 25-per-cent stake, while Bangkok-based Electricity Generating Plc owns 12.5 per cent, according to company filings. PTT told the Thai stock exchange on March 1 the huge project was expected to start commercial operations in January 2019 - if it starts this year.

The proposed alterations would slightly increase the cost of the project, Viraphonh said, without providing figures. The plant would be able to meet its target completion date if work started later this year, he said.

The Mekong and its tributaries provide food, water and transportation to about 60 million people in the four countries. In a July meeting with counterparts from Mekong nations in Bali, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for a pause in construction of dams on the river "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences".

Vietnamese officials in January recommended delaying the project and moving it to a Mekong tributary because it would affect "the safety of water sources and food security for Vietnam as well as for the whole world", according to notes of the meetings. Thailand and Cambodia also favoured more studies on the dam.

A technical review in March by the Mekong River Commission found that the dam may lead to the extinction of species like the Mekong giant catfish, and "gaps in knowledge" meant the full extent of the downstream impact on fisheries was hard to estimate. The dam "will not materially affect" the quantity and timing of river flows to Cambodia and Vietnam, it believed.

-- The Nation 2011-09-11

[elgato]

In a July meeting with counterparts from Mekong nations in Bali, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for a pause in construction of dams on the river "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences".

What a relief to know that the US State Department is on top of this. For a moment I thought this dam(n) project was going to be an ecological disaster!.

[OzMick]

Since when did the Mekong flow through the US? The US maintains the right to dam any river within its national borders, but the government and NGOs of the nation with the highest power (not to mention all the other of the world's resources) consumption per capita on this planet feels free to offer gratuitous advice to others. It would be a shame if the Laos people lost their subsistence farming peasant lifestyle, it's so quaint. That's the one good thing about hypocrisy, it has no limits.

As it is the first of a dozen being considered, why wait "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences" when this will be much easier after it is built.

[bushwacker]

"In a July meeting with counterparts from Mekong nations in Bali, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for a pause in construction of dams on the river "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences".

Does the Mekong flow into Washington DC? I did not know that it did, but I can see why they are so concerned!

[Ricardo]

"In a July meeting with counterparts from Mekong nations in Bali, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for a pause in construction of dams on the river "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences".

Does the Mekong flow into Washington DC? I did not know that it did, but I can see why they are so concerned!

She's worried that, once the dam has been built, they won't be able to sneak stealth-submarines up-the-Mekong into China so-easily ?

Oops what a giveaway ...

[softgeorge]

In a July meeting with counterparts from Mekong nations in Bali, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for a pause in construction of dams on the river "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences".

What a relief to know that the US State Department is on top of this. For a moment I thought this dam(n) project was going to be an ecological disaster!.

What on earth has it got to do with Hillary Clinton or the U.S Government? Medling in affairs and trying to dictate to other countries as usually geez when will they keep thier bloody noses out of other peoples lives.

[folium]

Dam construction with trans-national impacts are increasingly controversial.

Fish stocks and sediment flows are going to be hit hard by the two dozen dams China, Laos & Thailand are building or plan to build along the Mekong.

Cambodia & Vietnam are likely to be hard hit as the seasonal flows of the Tonle Sap are reduced and the Mekong delta starts to shrink as sediment deposits fall.

The Nile and Yangtze deltas are already suffering from dam building and people are finally waking up to the fact that HEP is not a cost free resource and particularly irks when it benefits one country at the expense of others.

[softgeorge]

Dam construction with trans-national impacts are increasingly controversial.

Fish stocks and sediment flows are going to be hit hard by the two dozen dams China, Laos & Thailand are building or plan to build along the Mekong.

Cambodia & Vietnam are likely to be hard hit as the seasonal flows of the Tonle Sap are reduced and the Mekong delta starts to shrink as sediment deposits fall.

The Nile and Yangtze deltas are already suffering from dam building and people are finally waking up to the fact that HEP is not a cost free resource and particularly irks when it benefits one country at the expense of others.

True but what on earth has this to do with the United States? Don't they have thier own backyard to look after before they try dictating as usual to everyone else? It is not thier countries so they should keep thier noses out of the lives of others.

[scotbeve]

Since when did the Mekong flow through the US? The US maintains the right to dam any river within its national borders, but the government and NGOs of the nation with the highest power (not to mention all the other of the world's resources) consumption per capita on this planet feels free to offer gratuitous advice to others. It would be a shame if the Laos people lost their subsistence farming peasant lifestyle, it's so quaint. That's the one good thing about hypocrisy, it has no limits.

As it is the first of a dozen being considered, why wait "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences" when this will be much easier after it is built.

Oz,

You forgot to ask the question: " Which politicians are in the 'What's in it for me' mode???" I'm an expat Yanqui btw....

[kerryk]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

[metisdead]

It is perfectly acceptable to report on events and give opinions, but personal attacks editorializing events to bash any specific country is against ThaiVisa posting rules.

Posts have been removed.

[OzMick]

Dam construction with trans-national impacts are increasingly controversial.

Fish stocks and sediment flows are going to be hit hard by the two dozen dams China, Laos & Thailand are building or plan to build along the Mekong.

Cambodia & Vietnam are likely to be hard hit as the seasonal flows of the Tonle Sap are reduced and the Mekong delta starts to shrink as sediment deposits fall.

The Nile and Yangtze deltas are already suffering from dam building and people are finally waking up to the fact that HEP is not a cost free resource and particularly irks when it benefits one country at the expense of others.

You are right about trans-national impacts, I will be surprised if wars are not fought over the issues in the future. The OP mentioned that improvement to sediment transport is being looked at as well as fish ladders - neither will be the same as original but at least some compromise is being offered.

The Tonle Sap is in effect a dam without a wall, filling and emptying as the river flow changes. Each dam should decrease peak flow, but if a minimum flow is maintained it should also not drain as much. Whether a (more) stable lake is desirable is debatable. It would seem rational that upstream countries could offer their neighbours guaranteed minimum flows (where possible) and cheap power. Remember that the total flow should not alter much, and the damaging flood peaks converted to more usable flows.

[furyrider]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Yea right Australia help. At that time they will be to busy bashing the United States for not stepping in to stop the dam project when they had the chance.

[OzMick]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Well you could, China doesn't hold the mortgage on Australia.

In the past, I owned a rural property with no access to a river or stream. I had a reservoir dug, and a contour put across the block to collect run-off rainwater. Eventually, that water would have reached a river, and if I had wished to pump out of that river, I would have needed a "water licence" but collected on my land it was mine to do with as I pleased.

Please tell me where the US or any other country obtains the right to tell the Chinese what to do with rain that falls in their country?

If they build dams purely for hydro generation, the total flow (minus a tad of evaporation) will be the same, without the massive peak flows. Dams will certainly not CAUSE devastating floods. If they wish to use it for irrigation, industry, or turn the flow north to water their deserts, it is their decision. If the Americans do ask the Chinese to stop and get a 2 word answer, they may want to consider the Rio Grande/Bravo before making a response.

Edited September 11, 2011 by OzMick

[softgeorge]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Yea right Australia help. At that time they will be to busy bashing the United States for not stepping in to stop the dam project when they had the chance.

I don't think it is America bashing possum, If someone questions the actions of the U.S then that is considered bashing? Is the world just to sit back and let them do as they please without even asking why out of fear that they will be accused of bashing. I am sorry America and Americans how dare I question your motives or actions.

[otherstuff1957]

Currently, the two biggest rice-exporting countries in the world are Thailand and Vietnam. They also both do a lot of business with the US. A couple more dams on the Mekong might greatly reduce Vietnam's rice output.

In the not-to-distant future, food production will be a major concern. Hungry people tend to be a politically destabilizing force! As the world biggest superpower, the US is more interested in stability than instability. So anything that threatens the production of oil or food is going to be something that the US will be meddling in.

I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, just the reality of the situation.

[kerryk]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Well you could, China doesn't hold the mortgage on Australia.

In the past, I owned a rural property with no access to a river or stream. I had a reservoir dug, and a contour put across the block to collect run-off rainwater. Eventually, that water would have reached a river, and if I had wished to pump out of that river, I would have needed a "water licence" but collected on my land it was mine to do with as I pleased.

Please tell me where the US or any other country obtains the right to tell the Chinese what to do with rain that falls in their country?

If they build dams purely for hydro generation, the total flow (minus a tad of evaporation) will be the same, without the massive peak flows. Dams will certainly not CAUSE devastating floods. If they wish to use it for irrigation, industry, or turn the flow north to water their deserts, it is their decision. If the Americans do ask the Chinese to stop and get a 2 word answer, they may want to consider the Rio Grande/Bravo before making a response.

You would think before you posted in a thread about damns that you would have at least the basic knowledge on international water rights as they are applied to rivers that cross international boundaries and some knowledge of the history of the Mekong River Commission. Your posts demonstrate you have no information that would qualify you to discuss the issue.

I am sorry but I am not able nor inclined to educate you to the level where anything you said may be meaningful.

Blather on as much as you like but unless you know the background of the Mekong you really don't know what you are talking about or why the Americans are concerned with the issue.

[kerryk]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Yea right Australia help. At that time they will be to busy bashing the United States for not stepping in to stop the dam project when they had the chance.

I don't think it is America bashing possum, If someone questions the actions of the U.S then that is considered bashing? Is the world just to sit back and let them do as they please without even asking why out of fear that they will be accused of bashing. I am sorry America and Americans how dare I question your motives or actions.

What is it exactly that you are criticizing America for doing re Laos and the Mekong dam project? If you were specific no one would accuse you of bashing anyone. So put up. What are the Americans doing re the Mekong, Laos and the dam project that you find so offensive?

[RickBradford]

Currently, the two biggest rice-exporting countries in the world are Thailand and Vietnam. They also both do a lot of business with the US. A couple more dams on the Mekong might greatly reduce Vietnam's rice output.

There is no way that Laos would do this without the agreement of the Vietnamese authorities (who basically set up the Lao Communist government and sustained it in the early days). In fact, the Lao government has said as much.

And since Thailand plans to buy most (95%) of the electricity produced, I think it's fair to say they are in favour as well.

As for rice output, I think that Vietnam sees itself as an industrialising nation rather than a race of rice farmers.

Edited September 11, 2011 by RickBradford

[folium]

Currently, the two biggest rice-exporting countries in the world are Thailand and Vietnam. They also both do a lot of business with the US. A couple more dams on the Mekong might greatly reduce Vietnam's rice output.

There is no way that Laos would do this without the agreement of the Vietnamese authorities (who basically set up the Lao Communist government and sustained it in the early days). In fact, the Lao government has said as much.

And since Thailand plans to buy most (95%) of the electricity produced, I think it's fair to say they are in favour as well.

As for rice output, I think that Vietnam sees itself as an industrialising nation rather than a race of rice farmers.

Not correct.

Vietnam’s government officials have raised their voice against the 32-metre- tall, 820-metre-wide dam. "If built, Laos’ Xayaburi dam will greatly affect Vietnam’s agriculture production and aquaculture," deputy minister of natural resources and environment Nguyen Thai Lai reportedly said in a meeting of the country’s Mekong River experts.

Such criticism goes against the spirit of a 1977 treaty of friendship and cooperation that binds them in a ‘special relationship’. The treaty followed the communist triumph against the U.S. in the Vietnam War.

Thailand is no friend of Vietnam (hence their backing of the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese regime in Cambodia and the fact that Thailand provided one of the biggest non-US contingents in support of the South Vietnamese government) but hard cash carries geopolitical heft. Laos development hinges on exploiting HEP from the Mekong and selling it to Thailand. Thailand scores relatively cheap electricity and one in the eye against Vietnam. Plus mega engineering projects always generate far more than just electricity.

Have a read of this for example to see the Vietnamese viewpoint before holding forth your own opinions.

http://vietnambusiness.asia/hydropower-plants%E2%80%99-dams-will-turn-mekong-delta-into-desert/

60 million people depend on the Mekong delta for their livelihood and homes. Dams destroy deltas in the long run, its all about sediment flows.

[OzMick]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Well you could, China doesn't hold the mortgage on Australia.

In the past, I owned a rural property with no access to a river or stream. I had a reservoir dug, and a contour put across the block to collect run-off rainwater. Eventually, that water would have reached a river, and if I had wished to pump out of that river, I would have needed a "water licence" but collected on my land it was mine to do with as I pleased.

Please tell me where the US or any other country obtains the right to tell the Chinese what to do with rain that falls in their country?

If they build dams purely for hydro generation, the total flow (minus a tad of evaporation) will be the same, without the massive peak flows. Dams will certainly not CAUSE devastating floods. If they wish to use it for irrigation, industry, or turn the flow north to water their deserts, it is their decision. If the Americans do ask the Chinese to stop and get a 2 word answer, they may want to consider the Rio Grande/Bravo before making a response.

You would think before you posted in a thread about damns that you would have at least the basic knowledge on international water rights as they are applied to rivers that cross international boundaries and some knowledge of the history of the Mekong River Commission. Your posts demonstrate you have no information that would qualify you to discuss the issue.

I am sorry but I am not able nor inclined to educate you to the level where anything you said may be meaningful.

Blather on as much as you like but unless you know the background of the Mekong you really don't know what you are talking about or why the Americans are concerned with the issue.

Well pardon me for living , Einstein. I do happen to know that China is not a signatory, so the MRC decisions are not binding on them, and that the CEO (Cogels) of the MRC expressed the opinion that the Chinese hydro dams would actually increase dry season flows, with no reduction in nett flows.

The signatories to the MRC can bitch as much as they want, the reality is they can't do much about it - similar to Mexico. The world's policemen don't need a reason to stick their nose in, they will anyway. As the didn't have the cojones to bomb the dams in North Viet Nam, I guess the Chinese won't be really worried.

It would be nice though if the US stopped bothering with everybody else's problems and started cleaning up their own act - living within your means would be a good start.

[folium]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Well you could, China doesn't hold the mortgage on Australia.

In the past, I owned a rural property with no access to a river or stream. I had a reservoir dug, and a contour put across the block to collect run-off rainwater. Eventually, that water would have reached a river, and if I had wished to pump out of that river, I would have needed a "water licence" but collected on my land it was mine to do with as I pleased.

Please tell me where the US or any other country obtains the right to tell the Chinese what to do with rain that falls in their country?

If they build dams purely for hydro generation, the total flow (minus a tad of evaporation) will be the same, without the massive peak flows. Dams will certainly not CAUSE devastating floods. If they wish to use it for irrigation, industry, or turn the flow north to water their deserts, it is their decision. If the Americans do ask the Chinese to stop and get a 2 word answer, they may want to consider the Rio Grande/Bravo before making a response.

China may not yet hold Australia's mortgage and is anyway unlikely to as it does not have the currency or bond market size to soak up China's cash generation, but China is Australia's biggest export market and spared it from the worst of the economic decline in 2008-9.

You are also wrong about dams not causing devastating floods. It is believed that China has experienced the failure of 2796 dams in the last 50 years killing an estimated 240,000 people. One of the most notable was the failure of the Banqiao dam which together with another 61 other dams which collapsed or were intentionally blown up in 1975, killing 171,000 people and making 2 million people homeless.

Also there is a growing weight of evidence that the weight of the reservoir behind the Zipingpu Dam in China either caused or significantly contributed to the Sichuan earthquake of 2008 which killed 90,000. The Three Gorges Dam in China has gone from political pride and joy to being an acute embarrasment as amongst a whole litany of issues it is causing coastal erosion around Shanghai on an increasingly significant scale, and the need to hold water to ensure power generation exacerbated this year's drought in the mid and lower Yangtze.

[kerryk]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Well you could, China doesn't hold the mortgage on Australia.

In the past, I owned a rural property with no access to a river or stream. I had a reservoir dug, and a contour put across the block to collect run-off rainwater. Eventually, that water would have reached a river, and if I had wished to pump out of that river, I would have needed a "water licence" but collected on my land it was mine to do with as I pleased.

Please tell me where the US or any other country obtains the right to tell the Chinese what to do with rain that falls in their country?

If they build dams purely for hydro generation, the total flow (minus a tad of evaporation) will be the same, without the massive peak flows. Dams will certainly not CAUSE devastating floods. If they wish to use it for irrigation, industry, or turn the flow north to water their deserts, it is their decision. If the Americans do ask the Chinese to stop and get a 2 word answer, they may want to consider the Rio Grande/Bravo before making a response.

You would think before you posted in a thread about damns that you would have at least the basic knowledge on international water rights as they are applied to rivers that cross international boundaries and some knowledge of the history of the Mekong River Commission. Your posts demonstrate you have no information that would qualify you to discuss the issue.

I am sorry but I am not able nor inclined to educate you to the level where anything you said may be meaningful.

Blather on as much as you like but unless you know the background of the Mekong you really don't know what you are talking about or why the Americans are concerned with the issue.

Well pardon me for living , Einstein. I do happen to know that China is not a signatory, so the MRC decisions are not binding on them, and that the CEO (Cogels) of the MRC expressed the opinion that the Chinese hydro dams would actually increase dry season flows, with no reduction in nett flows.

The signatories to the MRC can bitch as much as they want, the reality is they can't do much about it - similar to Mexico. The world's policemen don't need a reason to stick their nose in, they will anyway. As the didn't have the cojones to bomb the dams in North Viet Nam, I guess the Chinese won't be really worried.

It would be nice though if the US stopped bothering with everybody else's problems and started cleaning up their own act - living within your means would be a good start.

What exactly has the US done re the dam Laos plans to build on the Mekong? Or will you join the other Aussie in silence in answering this question?

[folium]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Well you could, China doesn't hold the mortgage on Australia.

In the past, I owned a rural property with no access to a river or stream. I had a reservoir dug, and a contour put across the block to collect run-off rainwater. Eventually, that water would have reached a river, and if I had wished to pump out of that river, I would have needed a "water licence" but collected on my land it was mine to do with as I pleased.

Please tell me where the US or any other country obtains the right to tell the Chinese what to do with rain that falls in their country?

If they build dams purely for hydro generation, the total flow (minus a tad of evaporation) will be the same, without the massive peak flows. Dams will certainly not CAUSE devastating floods. If they wish to use it for irrigation, industry, or turn the flow north to water their deserts, it is their decision. If the Americans do ask the Chinese to stop and get a 2 word answer, they may want to consider the Rio Grande/Bravo before making a response.

You would think before you posted in a thread about damns that you would have at least the basic knowledge on international water rights as they are applied to rivers that cross international boundaries and some knowledge of the history of the Mekong River Commission. Your posts demonstrate you have no information that would qualify you to discuss the issue.

I am sorry but I am not able nor inclined to educate you to the level where anything you said may be meaningful.

Blather on as much as you like but unless you know the background of the Mekong you really don't know what you are talking about or why the Americans are concerned with the issue.

Well pardon me for living , Einstein. I do happen to know that China is not a signatory, so the MRC decisions are not binding on them, and that the CEO (Cogels) of the MRC expressed the opinion that the Chinese hydro dams would actually increase dry season flows, with no reduction in nett flows.

The signatories to the MRC can bitch as much as they want, the reality is they can't do much about it - similar to Mexico. The world's policemen don't need a reason to stick their nose in, they will anyway. As the didn't have the cojones to bomb the dams in North Viet Nam, I guess the Chinese won't be really worried.

It would be nice though if the US stopped bothering with everybody else's problems and started cleaning up their own act - living within your means would be a good start.

The MRC (which is largely funded by the Australian government, which rather begs the question why they are getting involved but then again you only seem to be interested in criticizing the US) is widely seen as too keen to duck contentious issues as it cannot satisfy all the objectives of its constituent members.

Throwing in N Vietnamese dams is somewhat irrelevant and again you are wrong. Much of the eastern section of the Red River delta dyke network was bombed by the USAF as highlighted by Jane Fonda.

Advocating US isolationism is a sad approach to geopolitics. Who would you like to see fill the void? Many Asian nations, having witnessed Chinese rhetoric and action in the South China Sea, are quite keen for the US to maintain its interest in SE Asia.

Also perhaps you should look to your own fair country and its wanton destruction of the Murray-Darling river Basin and Great Barrier Reef. Neither are a great advertisement for managing resources.

[Crushdepth]

You would think before you posted in a thread about damns that you would have at least the basic knowledge on international water rights as they are applied to rivers that cross international boundaries and some knowledge of the history of the Mekong River Commission. Your posts demonstrate you have no information that would qualify you to discuss the issue.

I am sorry but I am not able nor inclined to educate you to the level where anything you said may be meaningful.

Blather on as much as you like but unless you know the background of the Mekong you really don't know what you are talking about or why the Americans are concerned with the issue.

Well pardon me for living , Einstein. I do happen to know that China is not a signatory, so the MRC decisions are not binding on them, and that the CEO (Cogels) of the MRC expressed the opinion that the Chinese hydro dams would actually increase dry season flows, with no reduction in nett flows.

The signatories to the MRC can bitch as much as they want, the reality is they can't do much about it - similar to Mexico. The world's policemen don't need a reason to stick their nose in, they will anyway. As the didn't have the cojones to bomb the dams in North Viet Nam, I guess the Chinese won't be really worried.

It would be nice though if the US stopped bothering with everybody else's problems and started cleaning up their own act - living within your means would be a good start.

The MRC (which is largely funded by the Australian government, which rather begs the question why they are getting involved but then again you only seem to be interested in criticizing the US) is widely seen as too keen to duck contentious issues as it cannot satisfy all the objectives of its constituent members.

Throwing in N Vietnamese dams is somewhat irrelevant and again you are wrong. Much of the eastern section of the Red River delta dyke network was bombed by the USAF as highlighted by Jane Fonda.

Advocating US isolationism is a sad approach to geopolitics. Who would you like to see fill the void? Many Asian nations, having witnessed Chinese rhetoric and action in the South China Sea, are quite keen for the US to maintain its interest in SE Asia.

Also perhaps you should look to your own fair country and its wanton destruction of the Murray-Darling river Basin and Great Barrier Reef. Neither are a great advertisement for managing resources.

This is off topic, but if you think the Great Barrier Reef is poorly managed you could not be more wrong. It's very well managed and in excellent condition (I used to work on it).

But you're right about the river.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Crushdepth

[zzaa09]

"In a July meeting with counterparts from Mekong nations in Bali, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for a pause in construction of dams on the river "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences".

Does the Mekong flow into Washington DC? I did not know that it did, but I can see why they are so concerned!

Their concerns are those that can't be seen nor discussed publicly.

[kerryk]

Dam construction with trans-national impacts are increasingly controversial.

Fish stocks and sediment flows are going to be hit hard by the two dozen dams China, Laos & Thailand are building or plan to build along the Mekong.

Cambodia & Vietnam are likely to be hard hit as the seasonal flows of the Tonle Sap are reduced and the Mekong delta starts to shrink as sediment deposits fall.

The Nile and Yangtze deltas are already suffering from dam building and people are finally waking up to the fact that HEP is not a cost free resource and particularly irks when it benefits one country at the expense of others.

True but what on earth has this to do with the United States? Don't they have thier own backyard to look after before they try dictating as usual to everyone else? It is not thier countries so they should keep thier noses out of the lives of others.

Oxfam Australia and the Australian Mekong Resource Centre at the University of Sydney have released a report, Power and Responsibility, which examines the role, responsibility and effectiveness of the MRC in addressing concerns and informing debate around controversial proposals to dam the Mekong River.

The report notes that the MRC’s own research finds the proposed dams to be a serious threat to the ecology and fisheries of the river, endangering the livelihoods of many Mekong communities.

Do you feel the same about the Australian noses? Just asking.

[kerryk]

Since when did the Mekong flow through the US? The US maintains the right to dam any river within its national borders, but the government and NGOs of the nation with the highest power (not to mention all the other of the world's resources) consumption per capita on this planet feels free to offer gratuitous advice to others. It would be a shame if the Laos people lost their subsistence farming peasant lifestyle, it's so quaint. That's the one good thing about hypocrisy, it has no limits.

As it is the first of a dozen being considered, why wait "until we are all able to do a better assessment of the likely consequences" when this will be much easier after it is built.

http://www.mannagum.org.au/aid-development/xayaburi-dam-write-to-rudd

In Australia, Manna Gum, members of the public, some prominent academics and a host of Australian development NGOs (including Oxfam, TEAR, World Vision, Plan, CARE and more) wrote to Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd asking that the Australian Government do its utmost to ensure that the review of the Xayaburi Dam (which was funded by Australian aid money) was fair and transparent. We are pleased to report that the Australian Government played a lead role in organising other international donors to the Mekong River Commission to make a strong statement about the need for good process in decision-making around the proposed Xayaburi Dam. Thank you to all those who wrote letters!

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/australia-urged-to-help-halt-mekong-dam-20110310-1bp03.html

The Laos-based MRC is internationally donor sponsored, with Australia a key contributor.

What did you say? "That's the one good thing about hypocrisy, it has no limits." That is what you said, right?

[Angelatarangela]

Hate to change the subject from American bashing but I wonder if the proposed dam_n will have negative consequences to the food supply of downstream nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong, The Mekong River Commission, a panel of the region's nations, has accused China of blatantly disregarding the nations downstream in its plans to dam the river in an effort to stop the dams, but to no avail. Cambodia is by far the most exposed, depending on a fine balance of water flow, fearing scenarios of mass famine and devastating floods, the likes of which destroyed the Angkor kingdom 700 years ago.

When China builds all the damns and Vietnam and Cambodia go into starvation mode who you all going to ask to get China to stop? Australia.

Well you could, China doesn't hold the mortgage on Australia.

In the past, I owned a rural property with no access to a river or stream. I had a reservoir dug, and a contour put across the block to collect run-off rainwater. Eventually, that water would have reached a river, and if I had wished to pump out of that river, I would have needed a "water licence" but collected on my land it was mine to do with as I pleased.

Please tell me where the US or any other country obtains the right to tell the Chinese what to do with rain that falls in their country?

If they build dams purely for hydro generation, the total flow (minus a tad of evaporation) will be the same, without the massive peak flows. Dams will certainly not CAUSE devastating floods. If they wish to use it for irrigation, industry, or turn the flow north to water their deserts, it is their decision. If the Americans do ask the Chinese to stop and get a 2 word answer, they may want to consider the Rio Grande/Bravo before making a response.

You would think before you posted in a thread about damns that you would have at least the basic knowledge on international water rights as they are applied to rivers that cross international boundaries and some knowledge of the history of the Mekong River Commission. Your posts demonstrate you have no information that would qualify you to discuss the issue.

I am sorry but I am not able nor inclined to educate you to the level where anything you said may be meaningful.

Blather on as much as you like but unless you know the background of the Mekong you really don't know what you are talking about or why the Americans are concerned with the issue.

Hear, Hear! I would only add that you also seem to have a poor understanding of environmental interconnections or natural resource ownership and rights.

[moe666]

More western colonist trying to tell asians what to do