Frozen Uk State Pensions

[theoldgit]

We all know that Brits who are living in Thailand have their State Pensions frozen, but those living in The Philippines don't, Brits living in Canada also have their pensions frozen, but not those in the US.

Pensioners, and those arguing against the unfairness of this policy have argued their case, without success, for years.

The latest attempt to address this issue is in the form of a UK Government e-petition, if you are a Brit who think this unfair and unreasonable then please sign the e-petition.

You don't need to be a pensioner, it will affect you in due course.

I urge all Brits to sign it.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/16387

[beano2274]

Signed

[Lite Beer]

Probably futile but signed anyway yet again.

[chiang mai]

signed

[MAJIC]

Signed

Ditto

[Eff1n2ret]

Hasn't there been one such petition before, or is this the same one? As the accursed European Court has already come out in favour of the status quo, I can't see a government desperate to reduce the public sector deficit giving any priority to this.

[Crossy]

Yes ^^^, that's my thought to, went all the way to the top and failed miserably

Signed anyway

[mistephenso]

I've signed (even though I'm a long way off claiming my pension)...

Without reading through all of the legal junk (I'm lazy) , can anyone explain WHY people in Thailand are penalised when it comes to pension payments from the UK, with regards to other countries??

Why are Filipino/Canadian expats better off (or in a better position) than Thai expats...??

What are the 'rules' that were met for this to be put in place...?! I'm 'confuzzed' (sic)...

[chiang mai]

I've signed (even though I'm a long way off claiming my pension)...

Without reading through all of the legal junk (I'm lazy) , can anyone explain WHY people in Thailand are penalised when it comes to pension payments from the UK, with regards to other countries??

Why are Filipino/Canadian expats better off (or in a better position) than Thai expats...??

What are the 'rules' that were met for this to be put in place...?! I'm 'confuzzed' (sic)...

It all depends on whether there is a reciprocal tax agreement in place between the UK and individual countries, in the case of Thailand there is not!

[rodentwarrior]

Signed. But didn't this go before the high court recently and fail?

[mistephenso]

I've signed (even though I'm a long way off claiming my pension)...

Without reading through all of the legal junk (I'm lazy) , can anyone explain WHY people in Thailand are penalised when it comes to pension payments from the UK, with regards to other countries??

Why are Filipino/Canadian expats better off (or in a better position) than Thai expats...??

What are the 'rules' that were met for this to be put in place...?! I'm 'confuzzed' (sic)...

It all depends on whether there is a reciprocal tax agreement in place between the UK and individual countries, in the case of Thailand there is not!

Sorry - in layman's terms, that means what exactly...? That we are paying tax in two countries and having to bite the bullet; or something else...

[chiang mai]

I've signed (even though I'm a long way off claiming my pension)...

Without reading through all of the legal junk (I'm lazy) , can anyone explain WHY people in Thailand are penalised when it comes to pension payments from the UK, with regards to other countries??

Why are Filipino/Canadian expats better off (or in a better position) than Thai expats...??

What are the 'rules' that were met for this to be put in place...?! I'm 'confuzzed' (sic)...

It all depends on whether there is a reciprocal tax agreement in place between the UK and individual countries, in the case of Thailand there is not!

Sorry - in layman's terms, that means what exactly...? That we are paying tax in two countries and having to bite the bullet; or something else...

The following articles/extracts may help:

"If you are living abroad on a permanent basis you may be entitled to the annual increase to your State Pension rates if you live in an EEA country*, Switzerland, or a country that has a reciprocal social security agreement with the UK**.

If you live abroad in any other country you will not receive an annual increase.

* The EEA countries are Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden. The UK is also part of the EEA. UK means England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Gibraltar is treated as another EEA country by the UK. Other EEA countries treat Gibraltar as part of the UK.

** Countries with reciprocal agreements are Barbados, Bermuda, Israel (the agreement with Israel applies to the territory administered by the Government of Israel on 19 July 1956), Jamaica, Jersey and Guernsey, Isle of Man, Mauritius, Philippines, Turkey, USA and the separate republics of the former Yugoslavia that are not EU Member States (Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro, the Republic of Macedonia and Serbia). Increases are also payable in Sark under the UK domestic legislation".

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1690853/Overseas-pensioners-lose-fight-for-equality.html

Of particular interest in that article is confirmation that UK pensioners resident in Thailand CAN receive the temporary uplift to the highest rate, when they return to the UK for holiday, as shown below. I post this aspect here now in response to the poster some months ago who suggested such a thing was rubbish.

"Bizarrely, when these people return to the UK or if they travel to a country that gets up-rated, they temporarily receive a higher pension over this period of time, if they notify the UK pension authorities. So a UK pensioner living in Canada and going on holiday to Jamaica for two weeks, can get a higher pension for that fortnight".

Edited September 14, 2011 by chiang mai

[toffo9]

Wht tell them you are not in the country.. I for one if i reach pensionable age will not declare im in Thailand even if its illegal...One rule for all is what i say and if the u.s and philly are getting it y not Thailand... They can kiss my ass

[hedonist44]

Wht tell them you are not in the country.. I for one if i reach pensionable age will not declare im in Thailand even if its illegal...One rule for all is what i say and if the u.s and philly are getting it y not Thailand... They can kiss my ass

I'm waiting....

[Rimmer]

Signed

[theoldgit]

Hasn't there been one such petition before, or is this the same one? As the accursed European Court has already come out in favour of the status quo, I can't see a government desperate to reduce the public sector deficit giving any priority to this.

I'm not aware of an earlier petition though there was one about the way pension increases are calculated, various support groups are supporting this one, including Age Concern, the link was sent to me by the Civil Service Pensioners Alliance.

Yes the issue was lost in the European Court but I don't think they actually came out in favour of the status quo, I think they ruled that the policy wasn't unlawful.

I do agree that the current government, despite pre-election promises, will probably not roll over on this issue, though honouring increases world wide would cost very little in the big picture, but if they get 100,000 signatures it will force a debate in the house.

[PattayaParent]

Wht tell them you are not in the country.. I for one if i reach pensionable age will not declare im in Thailand even if its illegal...One rule for all is what i say and if the u.s and philly are getting it y not Thailand... They can kiss my ass

Biometric passports.

[billd766]

I signed it but I had to make the screen font size bigger and change the security word a couple of times to read it.

[davyboy]

Signed.

Wow! That's 500 up!

Edited September 15, 2011 by davyboy

[theblether]

Your wasting your time, the rules are clear, the rules have been gone over by the European Court and they are lawful. Take responsibility for your own decisions, you decided to live in a country that did not qualify for an annual increase. lf you didn't know that before you moved to Thailand then you should have researched more.

This e-petition is a red herring. The debate, if it ever happens, will take the form of some backbencher standing for 5 minutes to raise the point, the Government minister will then point out the obvious while referring to previous court decisions, and that's it.

The government has limited time to enact their own legislative programme, and there are dozens of these e-petitions floating around. The most recent high profile one was to re-open the Hillsborough Disaster files. That will get some genuine debating time as there are enough highly motivated MP's in regards to this issue. You'll find a very sparsely populated chamber when they raise the issue of raising pensions for people living in Thailand.

If you think the UK government is ready to spend one extra coin on overseas pensions then dream on. Sorry to be so negative but this e-petition is not the answer to your money problems if your experiencing any.

However as an act of solidarity with my pension age friends, I've signed it!!

Edited September 15, 2011 by theblether

[toffo9]

Your wasting your time, the rules are clear, the rules have been gone over by the European Court and they are lawful. Take responsibility for your own decisions, you decided to live in a country that did not qualify for an annual increase. lf you didn't know that before you moved to Thailand then you should have researched more.

This e-petition is a red herring. The debate, if it ever happens, will take the form of some backbencher standing for 5 minutes to raise the point, the Government minister will then point out the obvious while referring to previous court decisions, and that's it.

The government has limited time to enact their own legislative programme, and there are dozens of these e-petitions floating around. The most recent high profile one was to re-open the Hillsborough Disaster files. That will get some genuine debating time as there are enough highly motivated MP's in regards to this issue. You'll find a very sparsely populated chamber when they raise the issue of raising pensions for people living in Thailand.

If you think the UK government is ready to spend one extra coin on overseas pensions then dream on. Sorry to be so negative but this e-petition is not the answer to your money problems if your experiencing any.

On a side note, I believe, ( In fact I'm certain ). you cannot sign the e-petition unless you are on the UK Electoral Roll. You can be certain that these petitions will be checked, if not in their entirety, then they will be sampled and if they find a level of fraud then the petitions will be dismissed. The UK government is very sensitive to this issue due to recent problems in the Scottish election ( 2007 ), postal vote fraud and other well publicized difficulties during the last General Election.

I think the Thaivisa moderators should be more sensitive to members indicating or inducing criminal offences. It's a recurring theme through too many threads, including this one.

Yes i agree i think its criminal that the british government can pay pension increases to someone living in the phillipines and not to someone in Thailand... Daylight robbery and should be a life sentence

[Familyonthemove]

Signed.

Good luck!

[Eff1n2ret]

This e-petition is a red herring. The debate, if it ever happens, will take the form of some backbencher standing for 5 minutes to raise the point, the Government minister will then point out the obvious while referring to previous court decisions, and that's it.

I've just been reading the European Court judgement, which includes this nugget:-

"48. During the passage of the Pensions Bill through Parliament in 1995, amendments tabled in both Houses, calling for up-rating to be paid to all expatriate pensioners, were defeated by large majorities. According to the Government, it would cost approximately GBP 4 billion (4 thousand million) to pay the back-dated claims to up-rating of all United Kingdom pensioners resident abroad in “frozen” countries together with an ongoing annual bill of over GBP 500 million (0.79 % of the GBP 62.7 billion spent in total by the United Kingdom in 2008/2009 on pensions)."

The full judgement, for anyone who can understand it, is here:-

http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&documentId=864611&portal=hbkm&source=externalbydocnumber&table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649

Even though in Paras 44-47 it sets out the arrangements regarding these treaty arrangements which the UK has with certain countries and benefits the expats in those countries (e.g. USA and Philippines), I still can't get my head round it properly. The treaties seem to concern reciprocal arrangements for people who may have spent part of their working lives in one of those countries and made social security contributions there, thus the pensions and increases will be paid by each government pro rata the contributions in each country - or can someone else explain it better?

Given that the vast majority of pensioners, including myself, spent an entire working lifetime making contributions in the UK I still can't see the justification for not paying me an increase that is given to someone in the Philippines, however the latter made his/her contributions.

But hey-ho, nothing's going to change.

[beano2274]

Your wasting your time, the rules are clear, the rules have been gone over by the European Court and they are lawful. Take responsibility for your own decisions, you decided to live in a country that did not qualify for an annual increase. lf you didn't know that before you moved to Thailand then you should have researched more.

This e-petition is a red herring. The debate, if it ever happens, will take the form of some backbencher standing for 5 minutes to raise the point, the Government minister will then point out the obvious while referring to previous court decisions, and that's it.

The government has limited time to enact their own legislative programme, and there are dozens of these e-petitions floating around. The most recent high profile one was to re-open the Hillsborough Disaster files. That will get some genuine debating time as there are enough highly motivated MP's in regards to this issue. You'll find a very sparsely populated chamber when they raise the issue of raising pensions for people living in Thailand.

If you think the UK government is ready to spend one extra coin on overseas pensions then dream on. Sorry to be so negative but this e-petition is not the answer to your money problems if your experiencing any.

On a side note, I believe, ( In fact I'm certain ). you cannot sign the e-petition unless you are on the UK Electoral Roll. You can be certain that these petitions will be checked, if not in their entirety, then they will be sampled and if they find a level of fraud then the petitions will be dismissed. The UK government is very sensitive to this issue due to recent problems in the Scottish election ( 2007 ), postal vote fraud and other well publicized difficulties during the last General Election.

I think the Thaivisa moderators should be more sensitive to members indicating or inducing criminal offences. It's a recurring theme through too many threads, including this one.

Yes i agree i think its criminal that the british government can pay pension increases to someone living in the phillipines and not to someone in Thailand... Daylight robbery and should be a life sentence

Am quite sure that as my mother votes for me in the UK that I am on the Electoral Role, but if someone knows better please let me know, as she has been voting for me since I was eligible.

[beano2274]

I would laugh if someone on the petition wrote their address as in Thailand, but was claiming Invalidity Benefit using another address, that would be the icing on the cake.

[Eff1n2ret]

Your wasting your time, the rules are clear, the rules have been gone over by the European Court and they are lawful. Take responsibility for your own decisions, you decided to live in a country that did not qualify for an annual increase. lf you didn't know that before you moved to Thailand then you should have researched more.

This e-petition is a red herring. The debate, if it ever happens, will take the form of some backbencher standing for 5 minutes to raise the point, the Government minister will then point out the obvious while referring to previous court decisions, and that's it.

The government has limited time to enact their own legislative programme, and there are dozens of these e-petitions floating around. The most recent high profile one was to re-open the Hillsborough Disaster files. That will get some genuine debating time as there are enough highly motivated MP's in regards to this issue. You'll find a very sparsely populated chamber when they raise the issue of raising pensions for people living in Thailand.

If you think the UK government is ready to spend one extra coin on overseas pensions then dream on. Sorry to be so negative but this e-petition is not the answer to your money problems if your experiencing any.

On a side note, I believe, ( In fact I'm certain ). you cannot sign the e-petition unless you are on the UK Electoral Roll. You can be certain that these petitions will be checked, if not in their entirety, then they will be sampled and if they find a level of fraud then the petitions will be dismissed. The UK government is very sensitive to this issue due to recent problems in the Scottish election ( 2007 ), postal vote fraud and other well publicized difficulties during the last General Election.

I think the Thaivisa moderators should be more sensitive to members indicating or inducing criminal offences. It's a recurring theme through too many threads, including this one.

Yes i agree i think its criminal that the british government can pay pension increases to someone living in the phillipines and not to someone in Thailand... Daylight robbery and should be a life sentence

Am quite sure that as my mother votes for me in the UK that I am on the Electoral Role, but if someone knows better please let me know, as she has been voting for me since I was eligible.

Electoral roll is irrelevant - see the link to the petition provided by the OP, click on 'Terms & Conditions':-

"To create or sign an e-petition, you must be either:

•a British citizen

•a resident in the UK (you normally live in the UK)"

[theoldgit]

I've just been reading the European Court judgement, which includes this nugget:-

"48. During the passage of the Pensions Bill through Parliament in 1995, amendments tabled in both Houses, calling for up-rating to be paid to all expatriate pensioners, were defeated by large majorities. According to the Government, it would cost approximately GBP 4 billion (4 thousand million) to pay the back-dated claims to up-rating of all United Kingdom pensioners resident abroad in "frozen" countries together with an ongoing annual bill of over GBP 500 million (0.79 % of the GBP 62.7 billion spent in total by the United Kingdom in 2008/2009 on pensions)."

Given that the vast majority of pensioners, including myself, spent an entire working lifetime making contributions in the UK I still can't see the justification for not paying me an increase that is given to someone in the Philippines, however the latter made his/her contributions.

But hey-ho, nothing's going to change.

Yes, the Government always churns out these figures proving that honouring pension increases to all is unaffordable, and to be fair it is their duty to ensure money is not wasted.

I'm not an economist but to me the figures don't add up, the Government claim there are approx half a million pensioners living overseas, some of these will have their pensions upgraded because they live in Europe, Canada, The Philippines, Israel or Jamaica, the pension increase for next year will be in the region of six quid, less tax, so that would cost roughly £2.4m extra every year, obviously it's going cumulative so the total extra bill will be well over that figure, but I don't see how they can get anywhere near £4b, I reckon that would take over 1,000 years.

Any economists out there can shoot holes in my argument?

[rodentwarrior]

It doesn't matter what the figures are, it's blatantly unfair that a tax payer who has made the required contributions to this 'Ponzi' scheme should be penalised in any way, Regardless of what Country they choose to live in.

The fact that this is enshrined in law is a bloody good reason in itself to sign the petition, because it is unfair.

And no, I am not yet on a pension, despite retiring 11 years ago. After 7 years here, I am moving my base to the Philippines, purely coincidentally.

[TexasRanger]

Signed.

Anyway, like everything else it will go into my bank in UK as a remain a UK citizen and tax/NI payer.

Although the way it is going I will be 100 for i get it.

[PattayaParent]

I would laugh if someone on the petition wrote their address as in Thailand, but was claiming Invalidity Benefit using another address, that would be the icing on the cake.

or even claiming their pension at a UK address!!