Thai Sayings and Phrases Wanted

[stigar]

I been living in surin for 6 years..i speak thai..laos .kamer...my exwife learned me the hard way..listen..see..remember..i have a wery good ear for learning..i dont write or read ..but thats ok..my new gf is from kalasin and learned me more laos..but actually i dont need that because if u speak thai u can travel anywhere and everyone understand u..kamer is more easy to learn because strong R..and not so much high/low tones..anyway when im in BKK and speak kamer girls get sceptic because they afraid i put some magic on them..thats what the surin/buriram/are famous for..he-he

[roulax]

Could someone explain to me the implicit meaning of this phrase: ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า Put in the basket and wash it? Is it like to make something more beautiful before selling it?

 

[bannork]

Just now, roulax said:

Could someone explain to me the implicit meaning of this phrase: ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า Put in the basket and wash it? Is it like to make something more beautiful before selling it?

 

It means to make something that has been used look new again, i.e. a an actress who has a murky past, i.e. she has been a drug addict,  involve in scandals etc,  now has her past cleaned up, brushed over and is presented to the world of entertainment as a good girl by her mother or agent.

 

[tgeezer]

I am having a problem.

ก. ทำให้หมดราคี, ทำให้หมดมลทิน (ใช้แก่ผู้หญิงที่มีราคีคาว ) เช่น หญิงที่มีราคีแล้ว ถึงจะใส่ตะกร้าล้างนำ้ก็ไม่หมดราคีคาว

 

Obviously if you put something dirty into a seive like thing and wash it you will clean it. ใส่ตะกร้าแล้วรดนำ้ให้สะอาด except that it isn't physical soiling which is involved here. The example makes it clear that the process fails! So to use the expression is to say that the subject is still 'impure' or so it seems to me.

 

ราคี น. ผู้มีความกำหนัด

น. ความมัวหมอง มลทิน เข่น หญิงคนนี้มีราคี

 

 

 

 

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[digbeth]

ราคี and มลทิน is like a patina, if a woman's been touched by a man she is said to have them

 

มลทิน is also used in context of criminal case where once someone clears their name they are said to no longer have any  หมด มลทิน

[bannork]

Interesting, so can we use ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า to mean someone clears their name as in a defamation case or is it exclusively used to rewrite the reputation or virginity of a daughter? 

 

http://www.suphasitthai.com/ใส่ตะกร้าล้างน้ำ

http://www.xn--m3cv1ac5bny.net/ใส่ตะกร้าล้างน้ำ/

 

[tgeezer]

Interesting, so can we use ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า to mean someone clears their name as in a defamation case or is it exclusively used to rewrite the reputation or virginity of a daughter? 
 
http://www.suphasitthai.com/ใส่ตะกร้าล้างน้ำ
http://www.xn--m3cv1ac5bny.net/ใส่ตะกร้าล้างน้ำ/
 

Both your examples show that the woman is still a ราคี . That can’t change can it?
I don’t know about court cases digbeth but the definitions of มัวหมอง มลทิน ราคีดาว กำหนัด are clear in the context of this พังเพย


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[bannork]

5 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Both your examples show that the woman is still a ราคี . That can’t change can it?
I don’t know about court cases digbeth but the definitions of มัวหมอง มลทิน ราคีดาว กำหนัด are clear in the context of this พังเพย


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Surely the idiom is describing the attempt to erase the past. Of course the girl cannot be a virgin again although the family tries to pass her off as one..

How successful the parents' efforts are in convincing a potential suitor is is anyone's guess, but isn't the idiom simply describing the attempt to alter the image of damaged goods? A spin doctor in action as it were.

[mouse999]

I do love a สมน้ำหน้า I think that’s right? Som nam naa. “Serves you right! “I use to love saying this when I was drunk and first in Thailand.. then I meet some thai people that didn’t appreciate the saying !!!


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[tgeezer]

Surely the idiom is describing the attempt to erase the past. Of course the girl cannot be a virgin again although the family tries to pass her off as one..
How successful the parents' efforts are in convincing a potential suitor is is anyone's guess, but isn't the idiom simply describing the attempt to alter the image of damaged goods? A spin doctor in action as it were.

I agree, I responded because I got the impression that this was not how it was being seen.


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[roulax]

Thanks to both of you bannork and tgeezer. So ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า basically as almost the the same meaning as ย้อมแมวขาย

[bannork]

6 hours ago, roulax said:

Thanks to both of you bannork and tgeezer. So ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า basically as almost the the same meaning as ย้อมแมวขาย

Talking to a Thai friend tonight he mentioned  ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า could be used with anyone or anything to make it look new and clean/pure again.

How different to ย้อมแมวขาย ? Thats a good question that needs a Thai to answer. However, I'm sure  ย้อมแมวขาย involves an element of deception for profit- ขาย- so perhaps it is more negative than  ใส่ตะกร้าล้างนํ้า  which might simply wish to have something used look new again.Perhaps there is less condemnation of the person performing the action, but again a Thai could clarify!

[DavidHouston]

Thanks, Bannok. T-L.com has "ย้อมแมวขาย" as "to put lipstick on a pig." I like the use of the animal metaphors in English and Thai. And, I like your analysis of the difference between the two.

[tgeezer]

It would seem that if a saying is not used properly people take them literally. When we research a saying we are doing something which most Thais do not do. Schoolbooks think that ภาษิต พังเพย and สำนวนไทย are an important element of the language, a ม5 book I have devotes some twenty pages to them, listing about 400. Incidentally neither of the two here get a mention there and ย้อมแมวขาย isn’t in any of my books of ‘sayings’.


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[tgeezer]

A senior policeman admitted that a traffic policeman will consider lighter trucks passing heavier truck, motorbikes overtaking busses at bus stops and รถเมล์หลบกิ่งไม้กันกระจกแตก as breaking the traffic rule saying that those vehicles must keep to the left lane. There are no trees which busses have to avoid so the last one is odd. Is it his way of saying that lame excuses for leaving the left lane will not be accepted?
That is not a traditional saying as far as I can see but it could easily become one in police circles.


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[DavidHouston]

"คำคล้องจอง, เสน่ห์ของภาษาไทย", โดย ชัยรัตน์ วงศ์เกียรติ์ขจร โ หน้า ๒๔๙: 

"ย้อมแมวขาย  ก. (สำ) ตำแต่งคนหรือของที่ไม่ดี โดยเจตนาลวงให้ผู้อ่นเชื่อว่าดี, เอาของที่เสียมาแต่งลวงตา"

 

Related ideas: to build a Potemkin village; "ผักชีโรยหน้า น. (สำ) การทำควาดีเพียงผิวเผินเพื่อเอาหน้า"

From Wikipedia: 'In an article in the Quad-City Herald (Brewster, Washington) from 31 January 1980, it was observed that "You can clean up a pig, put a ribbon on it's [sic] tail, spray it with perfume, but it is still a pig." '

[tgeezer]

 

ผักชีโรยหน้า is defined in the RID as  การทำความดีเพียงผิวเผิน

It doesn’t explain why it is done so I suppose it is an alternative to ย้อมแมวขาย which I suspect may not be an old saying. 

 

Does anybody know the origin? Why would one want to dye a cat?  

 

[bannork]

Just now, tgeezer said:

 

ผักชีโรยหน้า is defined in the RID as  การทำความดีเพียงผิวเผิน

It doesn’t explain why it is done so I suppose it is an alternative to ย้อมแมวขาย which I suspect may not be an old saying. 

 

Does anybody know the origin? Why would one want to dye a cat?  

 

Here's one explanation tgeezer

 

http://www.suphasitthai.com/ย้อมแมวขาย

[tgeezer]

Here's one explanation tgeezer
 
http://www.suphasitthai.com/ย้อมแมวขาย

Thanks for that. At first I thought that the origin would seem to indicate something different because a coloured cat is a coloured cat. In those days there must have been good quality colouring jobs and bad quality jobs.
I have not yet found a story of ย้อมแมวขาย being applied to people, so I think that nowadays there must be a financial transaction involved.


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[tgeezer]

The origin is more logically explained by the Royal Society bannork. Do you not get the impression that cat lovers dyed their own cats from your link? 

[digbeth]

On 16/1/2561 at 10:47 AM, tgeezer said:

It would seem that if a saying is not used properly people take them literally. When we research a saying we are doing something which most Thais do not do. Schoolbooks think that ภาษิต พังเพย and สำนวนไทย are an important element of the language, a ม5 book I have devotes some twenty pages to them, listing about 400. Incidentally neither of the two here get a mention there and ย้อมแมวขาย isn’t in any of my books of ‘sayings’.


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The other day there was a thread in Pantip.com from a guy who can't understand the สำนวน "ศีลเสมอกัน"

 

ศีล in buddhist context is literally: norms but in use in Thai has become 'precepts' or 'commandments' 

Typical Buddihist take 5 'precepts' like thou shall not 1,kill , 2lie, 3steal, 4drink alcohol, 5commit adultery

some take more like 8, male monks take 227

 

ศีลเสมอกัน is now used to talk about couple, like husband and wife that they are 'of the same cloth' and has no longer any religious connotation, but the Thai guy couldn't get his head around that it's just a figure of speech

Edited January 18, 2018 by digbeth

[bannork]

9 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Thanks for that. At first I thought that the origin would seem to indicate something different because a coloured cat is a coloured cat. In those days there must have been good quality colouring jobs and bad quality jobs.
I have not yet found a story of ย้อมแมวขาย being applied to people, so I think that nowadays there must be a financial transaction involved.


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Here's an example of  ย้อมแมวขาย being applied to people.

> เริ่มกันที่สำนวนแรก “ย้อมแมวขาย” 

ที่มา : สำนวนนี้น่าจะมาจากการเลี้ยงแมวของคนไทย เจ้าของแมวอาจจะเห็นว่าแมวของตนมีสีขนไม่สวย แมวมีลักษณะไม่ดี เจ้าของก็เลยนำแมวมาตกแต่งย้อมสี ให้เห็นว่า แมววของตนมีสีสันสวยงาม สำนวนย้อมแมวขาย 

ความหมาย : ตกแต่งสิ่งที่ไม่ดี ไม่สวยงาม โดยมีเจตนาให้ผู้อื่นเชื่อว่าเป็นของดี ส่วนใหญ่มักใช้พูดประชดประชันเสียดสีสาวงามที่ขึ้นประกวดเวทีต่างๆ ที่มักถูกปรับปรุงรูปโฉมให้สวยงามหลอกสายตาขณะกรรมการตัดสินการประกวด ยิ่งไปกว่านั้นสาวงามบางคนอาจจะไม่ใช่สาวบริสุทธิ์

 

This proverb is often used to make fun of beauty show contestants that have been made up to look beautiful in an attempt to fool the panel of judges. In addition some of the contestants are not virgins. ( shock horror!)

[tgeezer]

  The four hundred plus sayings are described as ควรทราบ in my ม 5 book so this pinned topic would appear to need more attention than I have given it.  

 คำพังเพยกล่าวเป็นกลาง ๆ เพื่อให้ตีความเข้ากับเรื่อง  from that I would hope to see an example of its use eg. ผู้หญิงบางคนย้อมแมวขาย

 How about; กรรมการโดนย้อมแมวขายแล้ว 

I have read somewhere in relation to สำนวนไทย the following  สอกแทรกในคะติ also, so just inserting the saying ungrammatically as it may seem to be, should have the power to do the job.   

Any thoughts on that chaps? 

 

[bannork]

A mother was describing her useless son who had been arrested yet again for being in possesion of amphetamines.

She said  มีดแปดด้าน  (a 8 sided knife)- meaning to be at one's wits end, to be at a loss as how to solve a problem

 

http://www.xn--m3cv1ac5bny.net/มืดแปดด้าน/

 

Why 8 sides? Read below.

https://th.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090914192921AAHmzdt

[tgeezer]

มืด Bannork you have a typo, Until I read the links I didn’t notice but it still works, they don’t bother to explain the significance of มืด because to a native it is probably obvious. 

มีด meaning that there are knives on all sides blocking escape, whereas the actual saying is darkness on all sides so the way can’t be seen. 

I wonder, did the mum say มีด? 

[bannork]

7 hours ago, tgeezer said:

มืด Bannork you have a typo, Until I read the links I didn’t notice but it still works, they don’t bother to explain the significance of มืด because to a native it is probably obvious. 

มีด meaning that there are knives on all sides blocking escape, whereas the actual saying is darkness on all sides so the way can’t be seen. 

I wonder, did the mum say มีด? 

I read it in a paper, no, its my eyes , gotta get a new pair of specs!

[bannork]

I saw this picture today and I thought of the idiom: a picture is worth a thousand words.

The nearest Thai equivalent I could get was:  สิบปากว่าไม่เท่าตาเห็น - more than ten mouths can't equal your own eyes

If we translate less literally we might get- more than ten opinions can't match what you see with your own eyes

I like that!

[roulax]

Can someone explain the meaning of this one please: เลี้ยงลูกเสือลูดจระเข้ 

 

Thank you

[tgeezer]

It says “looking after Tiger cubs, crocodile babies.” 

It means looking after the babies of creatures which are dangerous brings trouble. 

I think that you can take it that babies of bad parentage bring trouble. 

[2112]

Can someone tell me the common word for neighborhood mom & pop shops that sell beer, snacks, etc.? I have usually called them ร้านชำ (ran cham) but I think that may be incorrect. Is it ร้านค้า (ran ka)?? I always think of ร้านค้า as being bigger stores.

Thanks!