Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[kerryk]

Yes the swastika was subverted by Naziism. Use in the modern day has been curtatiled because of its modern meaning, so as not to lead to misunderstanding. In a Nazi context it symbolises one of the most evil symbols around. It isn't my fault that the Nazis subverted it and that I and many others recognise when it is being used in this way.

We are basically on the same page. However, judging by how misread I have been by people in life, simply because of the way I look (or the way they think I look), or the color of my skin, I know there is a small percentage with powers of perception not up to the standard of you, me, and the majority of people.

If a bunch of high school children before a football game in Alberta had a parade to the stadium dressed up in hooded white robes carrying flaming crosses I doubt whether the majority of people would wonder at the historical or religious significance of flaming crosses.

Nor do I think the majority of people seeing a parade with children dressed up as Nazi soldiers would start a discussion about the historical or religious significance of the swastika.

The only people that would even think to discuss the origin of the swastika would be on the lunatic fringe.

[siamiam]

Some people seem to have lost the plot. This is not about one lonely little humble swastika - whatever its orientation!

Geez where does the ambiguity come with the Hindu symbol. Unbelievable!

I think anyone reading the last three pages of this thread would know that two issues were being discussed.

[Nisa]

Some people seem to have lost the plot. This is not about one lonely little humble swastika - whatever its orientation!

Its about swastikas as part of a very well researched parade including:

1 Many swastikas

2 Nazi flags

3 Person dressed up as Hitler

4 Nazi banners with swastikas

5 Huge nazi banner with Hitler, bombers and dictators or whoever they are

6 a parade with goosestepping and aforementioned paraphernalia

7 Someone dressed as SS officer

8 Plastic machine guns

Geez where does the ambiguity come with the Hindu symbol. Unbelievable!

It wasn't too well researched if they didn't realize the uproar it would cause among some of foreigners.

Anyone with any knowledge of Thailand has to be trying very hard to believe any ill intention was meant by their display. If even the Israeli Ambassador to Thailand sees it this way, then really can't see the point or logic in trying to make this out to be more than it is ... which is simply a result of Thailand and other parts of Asia not covering much in the way of WWII, especially in Europe, within their Education Curriculum.

[Nisa]

Yes the swastika was subverted by Naziism. Use in the modern day has been curtatiled because of its modern meaning, so as not to lead to misunderstanding. In a Nazi context it symbolises one of the most evil symbols around. It isn't my fault that the Nazis subverted it and that I and many others recognise when it is being used in this way.

We are basically on the same page. However, judging by how misread I have been by people in life, simply because of the way I look (or the way they think I look), or the color of my skin, I know there is a small percentage with powers of perception not up to the standard of you, me, and the majority of people.

If a bunch of high school children before a football game in Alberta had a parade to the stadium dressed up in hooded white robes carrying flaming crosses I doubt whether the majority of people would wonder at the historical or religious significance of flaming crosses.

Nor do I think the majority of people seeing a parade with children dressed up as Nazi soldiers would start a discussion about the historical or religious significance of the swastika.

The only people that would even think to discuss the origin of the swastika would be on the lunatic fringe.

This didn't happen in Canada, it happened in Thailand. You really seem to be missing the point that there is a different culture here as well as a different level of knowledge when it comes to WWII and Europe.

Nazi chic in Asia

Uniforms and other imagery related to

Nazi Germany

have been on sale in

East Asia

, where some consider it fashionable.

Hong Kong

and

Japan

have each witnessed a growth in the casual wearing of

SS uniforms

, as well as increased interest in

White power music

. Sometimes in East Asia,

Nazi

uniforms are used as part of

cosplay

. In

South Korea

, an area generally isolated from Nazi cultural influences during the Nazi era,

Time

magazine

observed in 2000 "an unthinking fascination with the icons and imagery of the

Third Reich

."

^[10]

Nazi-inspired imagery was featured in various early releases from the Japanese band

The 5.6.7.8's

.

^[11]

In some parts of the world,

^[

^where?

^]

World War II

is not taught in schools as a battle of political ideologies, but as a conventional war. This type of education treats Hitler and the

Nazi Party

as charismatic and powerful leaders of countries during wartime, instead of war criminals as elsewhere.

George Burdi

, the former head of the

neo-Nazi

record label

Resistance Records

, claimed to have sold many CDs to

Japan

, because some Japanese believe themselves to be the

master race

of the East.

^[12]

In

Turkey

, Hitler's book

Mein Kampf

is an annual bestseller.

^[13]

^[14]

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nisa

[siamiam]

The only people that would even think to discuss the origin of the swastika would be on the lunatic fringe.

Right, I'm a lunatic and you are an idiot. Or, maybe you are just expressing an uninformed opinion because you didn't read deep enough into the thread to see why the origin of the swastika was brought up.

[kerryk]

Yes the swastika was subverted by Naziism. Use in the modern day has been curtatiled because of its modern meaning, so as not to lead to misunderstanding. In a Nazi context it symbolises one of the most evil symbols around. It isn't my fault that the Nazis subverted it and that I and many others recognise when it is being used in this way.

We are basically on the same page. However, judging by how misread I have been by people in life, simply because of the way I look (or the way they think I look), or the color of my skin, I know there is a small percentage with powers of perception not up to the standard of you, me, and the majority of people.

If a bunch of high school children before a football game in Alberta had a parade to the stadium dressed up in hooded white robes carrying flaming crosses I doubt whether the majority of people would wonder at the historical or religious significance of flaming crosses.

Nor do I think the majority of people seeing a parade with children dressed up as Nazi soldiers would start a discussion about the historical or religious significance of the swastika.

The only people that would even think to discuss the origin of the swastika would be on the lunatic fringe.

This didn't happen in Canada, it happened in Thailand. You really seem to be missing the point that there is a different culture here as well as a different level of knowledge when it comes to WWII and Europe.

Nazi chic in Asia

Uniforms and other imagery related to

Nazi Germany

have been on sale in

East Asia

, where some consider it fashionable.

Hong Kong

and

Japan

have each witnessed a growth in the casual wearing of

SS uniforms

, as well as increased interest in

White power music

. Sometimes in East Asia,

Nazi

uniforms are used as part of

cosplay

. In

South Korea

, an area generally isolated from Nazi cultural influences during the Nazi era,

Time

magazine

observed in 2000 "an unthinking fascination with the icons and imagery of the

Third Reich

."

^[10]

Nazi-inspired imagery was featured in various early releases from the Japanese band

The 5.6.7.8's

.

^[11]

In some parts of the world,

^[

^where?

^]

World War II

is not taught in schools as a battle of political ideologies, but as a conventional war. This type of education treats Hitler and the

Nazi Party

as charismatic and powerful leaders of countries during wartime, instead of war criminals as elsewhere.

George Burdi

, the former head of the

neo-Nazi

record label

Resistance Records

, claimed to have sold many CDs to

Japan

, because some Japanese believe themselves to be the

master race

of the East.

^[12]

In

Turkey

, Hitler's book

Mein Kampf

is an annual bestseller.

^[13]

^[14]

I grant you all that but the fact remains given the current situation a discussion of the religious or historical significance of the swastika has no relevance except for the lunatic fringe or worse.

[siamiam]

Geez where does the ambiguity come with the Hindu symbol. Unbelievable!

It is indeed very bizarre how this thread has obsessed on a totally arcane side show about non-Nazi swastikas. It does seem for some to be a way to obscure the reality of the the obvious and undeniable NAZI nature of the CM parade.

Not my intention. There were 36 pages of this being hashed out when I joined the thread. Also, I've never commented on the CM parade, until now. Yes, bizzare and nazi-ish it certainly was. I'm not sure it had the evil intent that many here have seen though. However, deffinetly not something I would want to attend.

I've read enough narrow minded posts on this thread to convince me that my concerns about people mistaking the motive of a non-western person wearing a swastika were justified. I am not speaking of the CM parade in this regard, but only to a valid point raised within the first 36 pages of this thread.

[MaxYakov]

Yes the swastika was subverted by Naziism. Use in the modern day has been curtatiled because of its modern meaning, so as not to lead to misunderstanding. In a Nazi context it symbolises one of the most evil symbols around. It isn't my fault that the Nazis subverted it and that I and many others recognise when it is being used in this way.

Yes. And the XX was subverted by Charlie Chaplin in The Great Dictator in 1940. So we had to resort to using XXX from then on (Dos Equis excepted, of course).

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[kerryk]

The only people that would even think to discuss the origin of the swastika would be on the lunatic fringe.

Right, I'm a lunatic and you are an idiot. Or, maybe you are just expressing an uninformed opinion because you didn't read deep enough into the thread to see why the origin of the swastika was brought up.

The origins of the swastika was brought up in an attempt to downplay its horrific connotation among most educated people in modern times.

We are still left with only two conclusions that the teachers were uneducated buffoons or not doing an adequate job of supervising their students.

[Thai at Heart]

Yes the swastika was subverted by Naziism. Use in the modern day has been curtatiled because of its modern meaning, so as not to lead to misunderstanding. In a Nazi context it symbolises one of the most evil symbols around. It isn't my fault that the Nazis subverted it and that I and many others recognise when it is being used in this way.

Yes. And the XX was subverted by Charlie Chaplin in The Great Dictator in 1940. So we had to resort to using XXX from then on.

Indeed, but Australians wouldn't give a xxxx for anything else.

[funcat]

The only people that would even think to discuss the origin of the swastika would be on the lunatic fringe.

Right, I'm a lunatic and you are an idiot. Or, maybe you are just expressing an uninformed opinion because you didn't read deep enough into the thread to see why the origin of the swastika was brought up.

:cheesy:

[siamiam]

I grant you all that but the fact remains given the current situation a discussion of the religious or historical significance of the swastika has no relevance except for the lunatic fringe or worse.

Really? Have you read deeply enough into the thread to make such a statement? Do you realize that a forum moderator brought up the religious significance of the swastika? What you are saying is that moderator is in the lunatic fringe, or worse. Nonsense!

[siamiam]

The only people that would even think to discuss the origin of the swastika would be on the lunatic fringe.

Right, I'm a lunatic and you are an idiot. Or, maybe you are just expressing an uninformed opinion because you didn't read deep enough into the thread to see why the origin of the swastika was brought up.

The origins of the swastika was brought up in an attempt to downplay its horrific connotation among most educated people in modern times.

We are still left with only two conclusions that the teachers were uneducated buffoons or not doing an adequate job of supervising their students.

You are incorrect on your first point (at least in my case) and correct in your second point (in my opinion).

It's not like me to sink to the level of calling someone names, even though it was in response to the same. And I can understand why feelings would run high. I am signing off for today.

[Nisa]

I grant you all that but the fact remains given the current situation a discussion of the religious or historical significance of the swastika has no relevance except for the lunatic fringe or worse.

I don't know why the issue of the Swastika got started but I don't recall reading anywhere on the thread that people were trying to imply the kids meant it any other way but to match the rest of their "fancy dress" theme. If anyone did that, it would be idiotic.

Given that Thailand and some other parts of Asia really are not informed about Hitler's Germany, as we are in the West, I can see how the topic may have got started and become relevant because most Thais simply see the Swastika as fashionable because of their education system not putting as much significance on the war in Europe.

Just the other day I noticed at dinner my step-daughter wearing a black ring with the Red Nazi Cross on it. I told her and her mother many people would be offended in the US because it represents a man like Bin Laden but who was responsible for killing millions of people. She told me, here in Thailand it just means fashion. When we got home, I pulled up some web sites for her to look at and low and behold a day or two later this story broke. Not sure if she is still wearing the ring but wouldn't be surprised if she did because no matter what these symbols mean in the west, they don't carry the same meaning here.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nisa

[funcat]

This tread is NOT(!!!) about "the religious significance of the swastika"....stop,please!

[MaxYakov]

I grant you all that but the fact remains given the current situation a discussion of the religious or historical significance of the swastika has no relevance except for the lunatic fringe or worse.

I don't know why the issue of the Swastika got started but I don't recall reading anywhere on the thread that people were trying to imply the kids meant it any other way but to match the rest of their "fancy dress" theme. If anyone did that, it would be idiotic.

Given that Thailand and some other parts of Asia really are not informed about Hitler's Germany, as we are in the West, I can see how the topic may have got started and become relevant because most Thais simply see the Swastika as fashionable because of their education system not putting as much significance on the war in Europe.

Just the other day I noticed at dinner my step-daughter wearing a black ring with the Red Nazi Cross on it. I told her and her mother many people would be offended in the US because it represents a man like Bin Laden but who was responsible for killing millions of people. She told me, here in Thailand it just means fashion. When we got home, I pulled up some web sites for her to look at and low and behold a day or two later this story broke. Not sure if she is still wearing the ring but wouldn't be surprised if she did because no matter what these symbols mean in the west, they don't carry the same meaning here.

Was it this one? The big, black, hulking German Eagle (more like a vulture) and the Swastika wouldn't give a wounded Allied soldier a warm and fuzzy feeling I should think (Wiki German Red Cross)

The US NRA Eagle doesn't give me warm and fuzzies either with the lightning bolts. But at least it's not hulking and black:

[flying]

The US NRA Eagle doesn't give me warm and fuzzies either with the lightning bolts. But at least it's not hulking and black:

This one scares the crap out of me

[MaxYakov]

The US NRA Eagle doesn't give me warm and fuzzies either with the lightning bolts. But at least it's not hulking and black:

This one scares the crap out of me

[ Deleted Scarey US Government Authority Symbol ]

You ain't just whislin' Dixie! Was having a pretty good day up until this ...

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[Nisa]

Not sure what the heck you are responding to beyond what is in your own mind but okay ....

Thanks for proving my point. Those two images are nothing alike. Your apologism would be grossly offensive if it weren't so naive and droll to read. Also the nazi swatstika in iconography has a rotated appearance 99% of the time. They probably kept it straight for medals but it's obviously not the Hindu version. Just like how the banner swastikas being flown by the Thai students are obviously not the Hindu version.

Symbols only have meanings if you choose to buy into them or depending on the intentions of the person displaying them.

Reich State service flag 1935-1945

http://en.wikipedia....E2.80.931945.29

http://www.dailytita...%80%99s-museum/

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nisa

[F1fanatic]

Geez where does the ambiguity come with the Hindu symbol. Unbelievable!

It is indeed very bizarre how this thread has obsessed on a totally arcane side show about non-Nazi swastikas. It does seem for some to be a way to obscure the reality of the the obvious and undeniable NAZI nature of the CM parade.

Not my intention. There were 36 pages of this being hashed out when I joined the thread. Also, I've never commented on the CM parade, until now. Yes, bizzare and nazi-ish it certainly was. I'm not sure it had the evil intent that many here have seen though. However, deffinetly not something I would want to attend.

I've read enough narrow minded posts on this thread to convince me that my concerns about people mistaking the motive of a non-western person wearing a swastika were justified. I am not speaking of the CM parade in this regard, but only to a valid point raised within the first 36 pages of this thread.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen posters saying there was any "evil intent". Rather that the ignorance of the teachers not realising that there may be a problem getting the children to march as nazis, was beyond belief.

[MaxYakov]

Not sure what the heck you are responding to beyond what is in your own mind but okay ....

Thanks for proving my point. Those two images are nothing alike. Your apologism would be grossly offensive if it weren't so naive and droll to read. Also the nazi swatstika in iconography has a rotated appearance 99% of the time. They probably kept it straight for medals but it's obviously not the Hindu version. Just like how the banner swastikas being flown by the Thai students are obviously not the Hindu version.

Symbols only have meanings if you choose to buy into them or depending on the intentions of the person displaying them.

Reich State service flag 1935-1945

http://en.wikipedia....E2.80.931945.29

http://www.dailytita...%80%99s-museum/

Nisa, why don't you do as favor today and 'buy into' this obscure symbol? Any doubt of the 'intentions of the person displaying' it?

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[Nisa]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen posters saying there was any "evil intent". Rather that the ignorance of the teachers not realising that there may be a problem getting the children to march as nazis, was beyond belief.

I've missed anywhere that states the teachers had the kids march and in fact everything I have read states the kids were responsible for the display as it is tradition to keep the dress a secret before the event. The teachers also likely went through the same Thai education curriculum that has left the majority of Thais with limited information about the war in Europe and the continued sensitivity some in the west still feel towards Nazis and Nazi symbols.

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

[Jingthing]

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

Thailand sported an Axis ally fascist dictator during the war. Thai students should learn that and not be proud of it. Every country has faults; its no shame to teach your country's historic faults. It would be interesting to know exactly how the history of Phibun is taught here.

You would be totally wrong about your Vietnam thing. Nice move to throw in some American bashing into the stew. That's always popular.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[F1fanatic]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen posters saying there was any "evil intent". Rather that the ignorance of the teachers not realising that there may be a problem getting the children to march as nazis, was beyond belief.

I've missed anywhere that states the teachers had the kids march and in fact everything I have read states the kids were responsible for the display as it is tradition to keep the dress a secret before the event. The teachers also likely went through the same Thai education curriculum that has left the majority of Thais with limited information about the war in Europe and the continued sensitivity some in the west still feel towards Nazis and Nazi symbols.

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

"Leading the march into the sports ground was a girl dressed as Adolf Hitler" - quoted from the orginal article that started this thread.

Vietnam is an entirely different discussion and changing the subject.

Perhaps you're right that it was the children that decided to do this, and didn't even tell the teachers.....

[Nisa]

Nisa, why don't you do as favor today and 'buy into' this obscure symbol? Any doubt of the 'intentions of the person displaying' it?

Because it appears many are missing the point. If the students had turned the swastikas to not be on an angle, there would still be offense. Intention is what matters and assigning too much meanings to symbols is idiotic. Although the students intent was to dress as Nazis, they clearly didn't have any intention of saying they felt positive about the holocaust or other aspects of the Nazis.

Keep in mind in Germany they have given symbols so much meaning that members of anti-nazi groups have been prosecuted for displaying images such as this ...

[SteeleJoe]

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

Leaving aside the rather odd non sequitur (can't work out the connection between the 2 sentences at all or their relevance), or even whether it's at all true that most of education most US kids get about the Vietnam war is comes from Hollywood (which I rather doubt and wonder why you can so confidently claim such ), I can't think of a single Hollywood movie that suggests in any way the US won that war. Indeed most or all of them (understandably) never reveal that the US won every single engagement of significance and still lost (ie tactical successes -militarily, massive strategic failure - politically) and indeed the loss of the war is arguably central to most of the stories.

EDIT to change "paragraphs" to "sentences"

Edited September 30, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Jingthing]

Although the students intent was to dress as Nazis, they clearly didn't have any intention of saying they felt positive about the holocaust or other aspects of the Nazis.

I think you go too far here. You don't know exactly what is in the brains of the Thai students. I agree they weren't making a pro holocaust statement. However, I reckon they were making a PRO NAZI statement based on their amazingly distorted knowledge and understanding of what Nazi means. Like you have posed AD NAUSEUM, in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically. Based obviously on ignorance.

[Nisa]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen posters saying there was any "evil intent". Rather that the ignorance of the teachers not realising that there may be a problem getting the children to march as nazis, was beyond belief.

I've missed anywhere that states the teachers had the kids march and in fact everything I have read states the kids were responsible for the display as it is tradition to keep the dress a secret before the event. The teachers also likely went through the same Thai education curriculum that has left the majority of Thais with limited information about the war in Europe and the continued sensitivity some in the west still feel towards Nazis and Nazi symbols.

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

Perhaps you're right that it was the children that decided to do this, and didn't even tell the teachers.....

According to every news account I have read, that is exactly the case. There are expat teachers at the school who claim to have been surprised when the kids marched out. So, even the Expats didn't pick up on Nazi uniforms and symbols being around the school in the days before then i doubt the Thai teachers, who don't assign the same meaning to these things, also weren't aware before the kids marched out or the very least, the day of the event.

[Thai at Heart]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen posters saying there was any "evil intent". Rather that the ignorance of the teachers not realising that there may be a problem getting the children to march as nazis, was beyond belief.

I've missed anywhere that states the teachers had the kids march and in fact everything I have read states the kids were responsible for the display as it is tradition to keep the dress a secret before the event. The teachers also likely went through the same Thai education curriculum that has left the majority of Thais with limited information about the war in Europe and the continued sensitivity some in the west still feel towards Nazis and Nazi symbols.

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

Perhaps you're right that it was the children that decided to do this, and didn't even tell the teachers.....

According to every news account I have read, that is exactly the case. There are expat teachers at the school who claim to have been surprised when the kids marched out. So, even the Expats didn't pick up on Nazi uniforms and symbols being around the school in the days before then i doubt the Thai teachers, who don't assign the same meaning to these things, also weren't aware before the kids marched out or the very least, the day of the event.

From the school website

http://www.sch.ac.th/sc10.htm

Teacher. Number

Male teachers.48.

Female teachers.183.

Foreign teachers.7.

total 238

If my experience is anything to go by having had a lot of friends in schools, the expat teachers try to find every excuse they can to get out of the sports days, since it is more a cheering show, than sports.

[Nisa]

Although the students intent was to dress as Nazis, they clearly didn't have any intention of saying they felt positive about the holocaust or other aspects of the Nazis.

I think you go too far here. You don't know exactly what is in the brains of the Thai students. I agree they weren't making a pro holocaust statement. However, I reckon they were making a PRO NAZI statement based on their amazingly distorted knowledge and understanding of what Nazi means. Like you have posed AD NAUSEUM, in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically. Based obviously on ignorance.

I actually don't believe it is common that the Nazis are celebrated heroically in Thailand or Asia and never said such. My guess would be there are by far more people in the US (my home country) who feel this way. What I've stated (I guess not enough for you to understand) is they are not taught the same history we are in the west and don't have the same knowledge of the war in Europe as westerners do.

People are putting a lot of emotions into kids playing dress as characters they know little about. My guess is the kids did know that the Nazis were the bad guys based on the Poster with what appears to be political figures but had absolutely no idea of just how bad he was and the feelings that their performance might cause with some foreigners.