There Are Some Human Societies Without Homosexuality ...

[Jingthing]

Actually, I just had to quote this article because this kind of concept seems to come up again and again when we view the sexual culture of Thailand through our mostly western eyes --

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2011/10/ahmadinejad_s_assertion_about_gays_in_iran_isn_t_that_crazy_afte.html

One of our fears in writing this paper,” emphasize the Hewletts, “was that the Aka and Ngandu might be viewed as ‘others’ with unusual and exotic sexual practices … [but] overall, the Euro-American patterns are relatively unusual by cross-cultural standards.” In other words, although widespread Westernization creates the impression of a species-wide sexual homogeneity, when one takes the sheer number of living and extinct cultures into perspective, it’s us—not them—who are weird.

Anyway, apparently these Aka don't even know what homosexuality is even though the men are into enemas for sexual performance. Wanking? They (literally) can't grasp it.

[JetsetBkk]

There Are Some Human Societies Without Homosexuality

How do I get there?

[endure]

There Are Some Human Societies Without Homosexuality

How do I get there?

A good start would be to leave the gay forum.

[Jingthing]

Can you imagine needing detailed instruction on how to masturbate because its something that never occurred to you to do? I can understand some people not being clear about how gays have sex exactly ... but wanking?

Edited October 6, 2011 by Jingthing

[arco27]

Oh well, we just have to accept their society and culture and be tolerant towards their lack of being able to enjoy the full gammet of human sexuality :jap:

as for the Iranian ..........(I was going to call him a prick or an asshol_e, but both those things are FAR to nice for him), his day of reckoning will hopefully come rather sooner then later.

[JetsetBkk]

There Are Some Human Societies Without Homosexuality

How do I get there?

A good start would be to leave the gay forum.

Good idea.

[Jingthing]

Good idea.

That was easy.

[zzaa09]

Can you imagine needing detailed instruction on how to masturbate because its something that never occurred to you to do? I can understand some people not being clear about how gays have sex exactly ... but wanking?

Perhaps wanking is a learned political tool....which might not be useful throughout some cultures.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd be tempted to hand out a warning or so, but with the sensationalist title, JT, you were asking for it.

To be honest, this is exactly what I've been saying on several 'cultural' threads we've had here already. The reason that the term 'MSM' exists is that many societies don't recognise a gay identity or what we Europeans would call homosexual acts in the context of a gay identity. The original, pre-Missionary Papua New Guinean males nearly all practiced younger male to older male fellatio as part of coming of age, and then nearly all became what we would call 'heterosexuals' in the sense of settling down with a female partner and having children and a family. Does that period in their life make them 'gay'? It was very common for male Athenian Greeks, even those who married, to have a younger male lover, but the ethics and style of sex (at least as it is written about) were very proscriptive; one could charitably describe one end of this spectrum as being recognisable in modern society as the old story of foolish old men smitten by younger men; the other end of the spectrum would be illegal today (and for good reason, I feel). Yet most of these men were also married. Were they 'gay' in our sense?

Michel Foucault, in his History of Sexuality, claims that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c. (I think, I'm going from memory here) when a man was arrested for trying to pay a fairly young girl (about 15 years old, I think?) for sex in France (? again, going from memory). The western word 'homosexuality' didn't even exist until its medical coining in the late 19th century, and the idea of a 'gay identity' is certainly a product of the late 20th century. So the idea that the sexualities of all these societies and time periods are in some way the SAME as ours is probably a pretty silly one- regarding sexuality, I'm a socioculturalist; I think every society (or 'community of practice') has its own mores which it is involved in creating and recreating. That doesn't mean that relevant and dominant themes, such as reproduction, male plus female or male plus male or female plus female, can't recur over and over again- but the meanings, the combinations, the variations, the circumstances, and the rules could all literally be different.

[Jingthing]

You have to admit it's pretty amazing that they found a society, albeit a small one, that doesn't appear to include some homosexual activity.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

You have to admit it's pretty amazing that they found a society, albeit a small one, that doesn't appear to include some homosexual activity.

"amazing" indeed - until you read the article in detail and discover what their studies actually consisted of and what they consider "homosexual activity". .... and even more "amazing" when you read the Hewlitt's original article .

There are 20,000 to 30,000 Aka. The Hewletts interviewed 18 Aka men, and as they "were primarily interested in sexual activity within marriage so all individuals had been married at least once, most had been married several times." Not a particularly impressive sample on which to base any sort of conclusion about "homosexual activity".

The Hewlett's described "homosexuality" to the Aka purely in terms of "the sexual act" of anal sex ("PD", French for par derriere or from behind). As their "study" also found that "oral and anal sexual activities were unknown or very rare" their conclusion is hardly surprising.

Evidently these anthropologists know as little about the meaning of homosexuality as the people they were studying.

Can you imagine needing detailed instruction on how to masturbate because its something that never occurred to you to do?

If I was not only encouraged but expected to have sex as often as possible and as soon as possible in order to produce as many children as possible, as is very clearly the case with the Aka, yes - it wouldn't occur to me to do it as I wouldn't have the energy to do it.

[LeCharivari]

.....Michel Foucault, in his History of Sexuality, claims that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c. (I think, I'm going from memory here) when a man was arrested for trying to pay a fairly young girl (about 15 years old, I think?) for sex in France (? again, going from memory). .....

Strange .... while his first volume (La volonte de savoir) concentrated on the 19th and 20th centuries, I thought that Foucault studied Greek, Roman and early Christian literature and history extensively and wrote about them at some length in his second and third volumes (L'usage des plaisirs and Le souci de Soi). No-one with even the mildest knowledge of the Koran or the Old Testament would be likely to suggest "that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c".

As I recall what Michel Foucault actually claimed was that it was the law on the age of consent that was a relatively new law and he led a petition to repeal it in France; as I also recall, this was part of a radio interview he gave, not part of his History of Sexuality. I'll see if I can find a link to it somewhere, but not at this hour.....

[isanbirder]

This is yet another of those threads where seem so concerned (or perhaps, in IJWT and LeC's cases, unconcerned) about defining our sexuality. As Zzaa would surely tell us, this is just one of those ways in which the thought-patterns of the East are more flexible. Couldn't we perhaps learn from them?

Edited October 8, 2011 by isanbirder

[Ijustwannateach]

.....Michel Foucault, in his History of Sexuality, claims that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c. (I think, I'm going from memory here) when a man was arrested for trying to pay a fairly young girl (about 15 years old, I think?) for sex in France (? again, going from memory). .....

Strange .... while his first volume (La volonte de savoir) concentrated on the 19th and 20th centuries, I thought that Foucault studied Greek, Roman and early Christian literature and history extensively and wrote about them at some length in his second and third volumes (L'usage des plaisirs and Le souci de Soi). No-one with even the mildest knowledge of the Koran or the Old Testament would be likely to suggest "that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c".

As I recall what Michel Foucault actually claimed was that it was the law on the age of consent that was a relatively new law and he led a petition to repeal it in France; as I also recall, this was part of a radio interview he gave, not part of his History of Sexuality. I'll see if I can find a link to it somewhere, but not at this hour.....

I was of course referring to a context within our own society, as was Foucault (who was very concerned with crime and punishment as well) in writing about this incident, which you will find mentioned in the aforementioned volumes. Not otherwise concerned with your post.

[Ijustwannateach]

This is yet another of those threads where seem so concerned (or perhaps, in IJWT and LeC's cases, unconcerned) about defining our sexuality. As Zzaa would surely tell us, this is just one of those ways in which the thought-patterns of the East are more flexible. Couldn't we perhaps learn from them?

Charitably, I'd say the fact that we're all here is one sign that 'we' are learning from 'them', or more engagingly, that all of us here together are participating in a mutual construction of social and sexual meaning, which does happen to include a minority element of foreigners. Less charitably, I'd say that the element of foreigners who are dealing with the real construction of local values, as opposed to a commercial distortion of them towards the singular interests of the foreigners, is far too much of a minority.

I would say that as a result of the absence of roles which are rather too fixed in my own country (in my view), I have had types of social relationships here with 'straight' men and with gays that would not have been socially realisable in most English speaking countries.

[tombkk]

This is yet another of those threads where seem so concerned (or perhaps, in IJWT and LeC's cases, unconcerned) about defining our sexuality. As Zzaa would surely tell us, this is just one of those ways in which the thought-patterns of the East are more flexible. Couldn't we perhaps learn from them?

Charitably, I'd say the fact that we're all here is one sign that 'we' are learning from 'them', or more engagingly, that all of us here together are participating in a mutual construction of social and sexual meaning, which does happen to include a minority element of foreigners. Less charitably, I'd say that the element of foreigners who are dealing with the real construction of local values, as opposed to a commercial distortion of them towards the singular interests of the foreigners, is far too much of a minority.

I would say that as a result of the absence of roles which are rather too fixed in my own country (in my view), I have had types of social relationships here with 'straight' men and with gays that would not have been socially realisable in most English speaking countries.

You construct long sentences. Please bear with us non-native speakers.. :jap:

I understand you are saying that "we" (the expats) learn from "them" (the Thais), but go on to participate in building up a gay community. I think learning would mean that we get away from the getthoisation and instead mix, and in fact blurr the difference between gay and staight. I too have more straight than gay friends, and they sometime come to have a beer with me in our area - Silom Soi 4 - whereas I usually go with them to their area. For Thai friends, there is no such seperation, we used to go to RCA (but that was more than 10 years ago, when I was younger).

As I said in another thread, there is Thai word for "gay". Because it really doesn't matter.

[tombkk]

You have to admit it's pretty amazing that they found a society, albeit a small one, that doesn't appear to include some homosexual activity.

As has already been pointed out, their sample doesn't seem to be representative, so the study is flawed.

But I agree: It "appears" to be a society that does not include homosexuality. Appearances and reality is different. Iran appears to be a society without homosexuality, at least in Achmedinejad's view. What is below the surface is another issue, and if the society puts great pressure on the homosexuals, they will not reveal it to a white straight interviewer but suffer in silence.

I understand there is a strong social control within these societies studied. Here is one cultural gem:

QUOTE

The Aka were the most emphatic on these points. One young Aka male said

“I am now doing it fi ve times a night to search for a child. If I do not do it

fi ve times my wife will not be happy because she wants children quickly.” Aka

females had similar feelings as expressed by one woman “I had sex with him to

get infants, not for pleasure, and to show that I loved him”. Another Aka woman

said, “It is fun to have sex, but it is to look for a child.”

UNQUOTE

This does not exactly show a cultural climate that is welcoming to homosexuals (male or female). Again, the study did not reveal whether there are any homosexuals among these tribes, it only shows that married or previsouly-married adults will not tolerate them. I feel a strong oppression here.

[Jingthing]

This is yet another of those threads where seem so concerned (or perhaps, in IJWT and LeC's cases, unconcerned) about defining our sexuality. As Zzaa would surely tell us, this is just one of those ways in which the thought-patterns of the East are more flexible. Couldn't we perhaps learn from them?

Yeah thinking about things sometimes makes the brain hurt. Oh my.

[tombkk]

I just saw this gem in the Discussion chapter of the paper:

The general egalitarianism and openness about sexuality gave us the impression

that homosexuality and masturbation would be common or at least known to most

people. Several factors may help to understand these patterns. First, sexual inter-

course in marriage is regular and frequent and most Aka and Ngandu adults are

married throughout their reproductive years so the need for alternative sexual

expressions may not be necessary.

[/unquote]

"Necessary"? These authors don't know the basics of homosexuality and should not even mention it.

[isanbirder]

This is yet another of those threads where seem so concerned (or perhaps, in IJWT and LeC's cases, unconcerned) about defining our sexuality. As Zzaa would surely tell us, this is just one of those ways in which the thought-patterns of the East are more flexible. Couldn't we perhaps learn from them?

Charitably, I'd say the fact that we're all here is one sign that 'we' are learning from 'them', or more engagingly, that all of us here together are participating in a mutual construction of social and sexual meaning, which does happen to include a minority element of foreigners. Less charitably, I'd say that the element of foreigners who are dealing with the real construction of local values, as opposed to a commercial distortion of them towards the singular interests of the foreigners, is far too much of a minority.

I would say that as a result of the absence of roles which are rather too fixed in my own country (in my view), I have had types of social relationships here with 'straight' men and with gays that would not have been socially realisable in most English speaking countries.

You construct long sentences. Please bear with us non-native speakers.. :jap:

I understand you are saying that "we" (the expats) learn from "them" (the Thais), but go on to participate in building up a gay community. I think learning would mean that we get away from the getthoisation and instead mix, and in fact blurr the difference between gay and staight. I too have more straight than gay friends, and they sometime come to have a beer with me in our area - Silom Soi 4 - whereas I usually go with them to their area. For Thai friends, there is no such seperation, we used to go to RCA (but that was more than 10 years ago, when I was younger).

As I said in another thread, there is Thai word for "gay". Because it really doesn't matter.

Thank you, Tom. My experience is as much with Hong Kong Chinese as with Thais... and anyway my comment wasn't meant to be so restrictive.

[isanbirder]

This is yet another of those threads where seem so concerned (or perhaps, in IJWT and LeC's cases, unconcerned) about defining our sexuality. As Zzaa would surely tell us, this is just one of those ways in which the thought-patterns of the East are more flexible. Couldn't we perhaps learn from them?

Yeah thinking about things sometimes makes the brain hurt. Oh my.

I was expecting that one. Being stigmatised as 'anti-intellectual' is quite as comic as being described as a homophobe (which I was, to my secret glee, on this gay forum). I simply think the emphasis is on the wrong things.

[Finlaco]

Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which seems un-natural?

People are born to love and be tolerant -- Kids have to be thought how to hate and be in-tolerant.

One wonders who conducted the interview with the Akha tribes people and what they were hoping to 'find'.

Many African countries and Asian countries would like us to believe that homosexuality is a 'western' thing. I worked and lived in China for two years as a Financial Controller and regularly met senior management of our companies and high officials in local government who genuinely believed that China didn't do homosexuality.

[LeCharivari]

.....Michel Foucault, in his History of Sexuality, claims that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c. (I think, I'm going from memory here) when a man was arrested for trying to pay a fairly young girl (about 15 years old, I think?) for sex in France (? again, going from memory). .....

Strange .... while his first volume (La volonte de savoir) concentrated on the 19th and 20th centuries, I thought that Foucault studied Greek, Roman and early Christian literature and history extensively and wrote about them at some length in his second and third volumes (L'usage des plaisirs and Le souci de Soi). No-one with even the mildest knowledge of the Koran or the Old Testament would be likely to suggest "that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c".

As I recall what Michel Foucault actually claimed was that it was the law on the age of consent that was a relatively new law and he led a petition to repeal it in France; as I also recall, this was part of a radio interview he gave, not part of his History of Sexuality. I'll see if I can find a link to it somewhere, but not at this hour.....

I was of course referring to a context within our own society, as was Foucault (who was very concerned with crime and punishment as well) in writing about this incident, which you will find mentioned in the aforementioned volumes. Not otherwise concerned with your post.

I can't help being rather amused by the introduction of Foucault to any anti-Iranian thread - after being in Iran as a journalist at the time and following the overthrow of the Shah he was a strong and very vocal supporter of the Islamic revolution, particularly regarding issues of gender and sexuality and women's and human rights where he came out strongly in favour of the revolutionary view over the more liberal western views. While his views may have changed after he wrote his articles in 1978 and 1979 he never said so in any of his later lectures.

The "incident" I referred to, which was the reason behind Foucault's petition as he made very clear in his radio interview , specifically concerned two incidents that occurred in 1977: one was the arrest of a number of men for having sex with 13 year old boys, the other the arrest of two men for having sex with girls aged between 6 and 12. The incidents, the interview, and his views are very well documented and his disagreement with age of consent laws was based on their being a 20th century phonomena and not even mentioned in the Napolenic Code of 1810, let alone four centuries before as you recall it. Maybe you could pin your recollection down to one particular volume, with a link?

[LeCharivari]

"Necessary"? These authors don't know the basics of homosexuality and should not even mention it.

Just my point, Tom - their description of homosexuality to the Aka (who definitely don't have a word for it!) was that homosexuality was anal sex between men.

From a purely practical perspective its not just a "cultural climate" that's not "welcoming" to homosexuals but a society where it would be physically difficult for homosexuals to practice homosexuality even if they wanted to do so and were tolerated, even encouraged. They live in small extended family groups of between 20 and 30, including men, women and children - that means that in any one group there are probably 10 to 15 males of all ages; assuming (for the sake of argument) the 1 in 7 gay ratio that makes it unlikely that any more than one or two in any group would be gay, including old men and young babies. Who are they going to be gay with???

[LeCharivari]

(edited)

Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which seems un-natural? ......

One wonders who conducted the interview with the Akha tribes people and what they were hoping to 'find'.

.....

This point has been discussed before, but given the researcher's view of what homosexuality is (see above) it may be worth mentioning again. Homosexuality (to most of us, gay or straight) isn't just anal sex or MSM; what is "found in over 450 species" is MSM, not homosexuality, and even the "gay" penguins aren't gay (although their keeper was!).

The interviews were conducted by a husband and wife, Bary and Bonnie Hewlett, anthropologists at Washington State University, and concerned the Aka's hypersexuality - it was not intended to be a study of homosexuality among pygymies.

(Note: the tribe are Aka, not Akha who are a Burmese hill tribe many of whom live in Thailand!)

[endure]

Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only one. Which seems un-natural?

People are born to love and be tolerant -- Kids have to be thought how to hate and be in-tolerant.

One wonders who conducted the interview with the Akha tribes people and what they were hoping to 'find'.

Many African countries and Asian countries would like us to believe that homosexuality is a 'western' thing. I worked and lived in China for two years as a Financial Controller and regularly met senior management of our companies and high officials in local government who genuinely believed that China didn't do homosexuality.

I went to college with a guy from Kenya who told us that there were no homosexuals at all in Kenya - not a single one.

[Ijustwannateach]

^The Koreans used to say this in all seriousness, too. Then they discovered boybands...

[Jingthing]

I met a Korean immigrant in the US who told me until he came to America he wasn't informed that girls even have the same toileting needs ...

[DefaultName]

.....Michel Foucault, in his History of Sexuality, claims that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c. (I think, I'm going from memory here) when a man was arrested for trying to pay a fairly young girl (about 15 years old, I think?) for sex in France (? again, going from memory). .....

Strange .... while his first volume (La volonte de savoir) concentrated on the 19th and 20th centuries, I thought that Foucault studied Greek, Roman and early Christian literature and history extensively and wrote about them at some length in his second and third volumes (L'usage des plaisirs and Le souci de Soi). No-one with even the mildest knowledge of the Koran or the Old Testament would be likely to suggest "that sexual crimes didn't even really exist on their own until about the 15th c".

As I recall what Michel Foucault actually claimed was that it was the law on the age of consent that was a relatively new law and he led a petition to repeal it in France; as I also recall, this was part of a radio interview he gave, not part of his History of Sexuality. I'll see if I can find a link to it somewhere, but not at this hour.....

I was of course referring to a context within our own society, as was Foucault (who was very concerned with crime and punishment as well) in writing about this incident, which you will find mentioned in the aforementioned volumes. Not otherwise concerned with your post.

Until then, in western culture, what we'd now consider a sex crime would have been considered as a crime against property. Most people (women & children) were in effect the property of a man, so the crime was in damaging or devaluing his property, not the assault on the person.

[Ijustwannateach]

This is yet another of those threads where seem so concerned (or perhaps, in IJWT and LeC's cases, unconcerned) about defining our sexuality. As Zzaa would surely tell us, this is just one of those ways in which the thought-patterns of the East are more flexible. Couldn't we perhaps learn from them?

Charitably, I'd say the fact that we're all here is one sign that 'we' are learning from 'them', or more engagingly, that all of us here together are participating in a mutual construction of social and sexual meaning, which does happen to include a minority element of foreigners. Less charitably, I'd say that the element of foreigners who are dealing with the real construction of local values, as opposed to a commercial distortion of them towards the singular interests of the foreigners, is far too much of a minority.

I would say that as a result of the absence of roles which are rather too fixed in my own country (in my view), I have had types of social relationships here with 'straight' men and with gays that would not have been socially realisable in most English speaking countries.

You construct long sentences. Please bear with us non-native speakers.. :jap:

I understand you are saying that "we" (the expats) learn from "them" (the Thais), but go on to participate in building up a gay community. I think learning would mean that we get away from the getthoisation and instead mix, and in fact blurr the difference between gay and staight. I too have more straight than gay friends, and they sometime come to have a beer with me in our area - Silom Soi 4 - whereas I usually go with them to their area. For Thai friends, there is no such seperation, we used to go to RCA (but that was more than 10 years ago, when I was younger).

As I said in another thread, there is Thai word for "gay". Because it really doesn't matter.

Sorry, I get carried away sometimes with the academic jargon. But yes, I agree with your interpretation- and as long as foreigners aren't participating in a tourist distortion of reality, I agree that it is possible that we are participating in a mutual construction of social reality here- gay OR straight- despite what the 'we are guests in this country- love it or leave it'- nutters say, we have an impact on the real social relationships we make. It's very rewarding when it works for everyone's mutual benefit.

I also agree with your criticisms above of what the researchers construe as 'homosexuality', and I would imagine that if they integrated more fully with that tribe they might find a different set of words and/or concepts which map onto what they think they are asking about- but they are clearly not up on the latest ideas about the contingency of meaning, especially with concepts as new, as loaded, and as variable as those associated with any kind of 'sexuality'.

I've had friends from different Asian countries telling me about sexual experiences with men; on occasion when I asked how old they were when they knew they were gay, they would respond in horror, 'I'm not gay!!!'