5D Mk1 Or 5D Mk2

[drum]

im thinking to get a full frame canon,,5d mk2 £1.450 or a used mk 1 £600 ,,from what i can see as beginner mk2 as 21 pixel to mk1 12 pixel,is there any other real differance in these models,that would matter to a beginner,,

[fabianfred]

Mk 2 has video which I don't think the Mk.1 has....go for the MK.11

[koknia]

Yeah, I replaced my three MK1s with two MK2s. Much better camera, the files are amazing. Not to say the original wasn't excellent, but the MK2 is definitely a major step up.

[draggons]

Got a mkII a couple of months ago, love it.

[drum]

Got a mkII a couple of months ago, love it.

is this your first 5d camera,or did you buy to upgrade,,if so what benifits do you see in your 5d from your old camera,

[BangkokImages]

I've had both.. still have the Mark II.

There are two sides. One side says a good photographer can make great pictures with any camera, and another side says the camera allows the photographer to make images to it's level and no further.

In truth, this should be divided into two parts. Composition and technical capability. Where composition is concerned, any camera will do. It is true that exposure can and should be lumped in with composition and in this regard any camera with a higher dynamic range will allow compositions a lower dynamic range camera cannot do. This is absolutely true, you can point your camera in the exact same direction at the exact same thing, and with all else being equal other than exposure.. you'll get two very different pictures which include different elements of composition PROVIDED what you're pointing the camera at exceeds the capabilities of the lower dynamic range camera. I hope I said that in a way to avoid confusion, but you might have to read it twice.

On a technical level a newer camera had features an older one might not. Video, bigger review LCD, faster save times to your memory card, higher flash sync speed, just to name a few. IF these features enable you to make a composition you otherwise couldn't make.. then the technical aids the composition.

So of course both sides of this age old argument are right DEPENDING on what you're pointing the camera at.. And without a good description of what style of photography you wish to pursue no one can give you a meaningful answer. As a beginner you might not even know, perhaps you're thinking of family pictures of visits to temples or just 'all around' tourist type photography. Even then this is too vague, it will depend on light (time of day, weather, indoors/outdoors), subject matter, and more. So you need to be very specific. If you can't be specific, then just assume a newer better camera with significant new features will serve you better.. and then weigh that against the cost of both.

Significant new features. As a beginner how are you even supposed to know what these might be? Everyone answering might have a different answer. Someone with less than perfect eyesight might really appreciate the bigger LCD of the Mark II. Someone making giant sized prints or who crops to composition (a sloppy habit btw) might believe they need all 21mp's of the Mark II. Someone else into critical focusing (we all should be) might more appreciate the Mark II's ability to fine adjust individual lenses to the body. And the guy who was having trouble making rent last month might think they're all crazy spending 4-5x more for basically the same camera.

Used gear. I'm a big believer in used gear. You can save a lot. But you need to be at least somewhat knowledgeable concerning the gear in question or you'll end up with a hunk of junk you can't use. Know the shutter life expectancy and know how many actuations the used body has, and what kind of use it's seen. Professionals normally take good care of their gear, but they use it hard in all conditions. An amateur might baby his/her gear and it could be like new.. or through product ignorance they might have ruined the camera without knowing. Using the wrong fluid to clean your sensor, exposing it to very high humidity or rapid changes in humidity, cheap power supplies or a defective or generic battery.. or if they use it for hour long exposures which can really heat up a sensor. You need to know about the gear and what questions to ask the seller. Remember there is no warranty on used gear unless you buy from one of the better used gear stores (there are some good ones) who will give you a minimal warranty or sell you an extended warranty.

New gear. Drive it off the lot, lose 20% off the top. Maybe more. You're paying for more than new gear though, you're paying for peace of mind, a warranty, and the latest features and capabilities. If you can afford new gear then great. If not, it might be worth educating yourself enough to make safe used gear purchases.

Back to your question. The original Canon EOS-5D or the newer Canon EOS-5D Mark II in my humble yet experienced opinion? Keep in mind these cameras are separated by nearly 4 years of technology. In digital camera terms that's a lot of difference. There are significant improvements made to the feature set of the EOS-5D Mark II to include nearly twice the pixels (about how much you need to see a real difference), a larger brighter more accurate review LCD, greatly increased ISO availability with real life (perhaps a 2 stop) improvement in low light performance, a faster frame rate, AF micro-adjust, 3 custom settings which stores EVERYTHING, HDMI out, longer lasting battery, Auto ISO, sensor vibrator function to knock dust off the sensor, and new processors which really speed up how fast your data is saved letting you get back to taking pictures that much sooner. There's a lot more, pull up any technical orientated review from DPR or Imaging Resource and you'll find a side by side comparison. The EOS-5D Mark II was an important upgrade, it will be well covered in the blogosphere.

Will it really make any difference to your photography? Yes. But without knowing very specifically what kind of photography you do I can't tell you if this difference will be significant or not. Did the Canon EOS-5D Mark II make any difference to my photography? YES. A professional tends to push the limits of their gear where amateurs often do not. I derived benefits mostly from the higher ISO low light performance, but I really appreciated the AF micro adjust. The bigger LCD is icing on the cake. I appreciate the extra pixels, but I'm still making great 20x24 inch prints from my Nikon D2H files which were only 4mp's.. The faster data saves have (often) allowed me to get back shooting faster, thereby getting images I otherwise would have missed. The battery was already good, more capacity is better but I didn't benefit much from this. I rarely take more images than a single battery can take in a day anyway, and a spare (should) be part of anyones standard equipment.

No one can tell you which camera is the better choice for YOU. Both are very good and both are capable of taking professional level photographs if you are. Both support the same lenses and many of the same accessories.

Bottom line should you get the newer one or not? IF you see yourself staying with photography as a hobby for 4-5 more years and IF you plan to make frequent use of your new camera, and IF it won't affect which quality lenses you're going to buy for this camera.. then get the new Canon EOS-5D Mark II. It's a great camera. So was the original Canon EOS-5D.

Good luck.

[drum]

thanks bkk image,for the advice and reply,you have answerd questions ive posted before,i have a 450d,then wanted to upgrade to 7d,instead i borrowed a friends,altough the 7d was much more clever than the 450d, and me

the results where pretty much the same,in photo image quality,,so now im thinking to go all the way and get a 5dmk2 40 105 L lens,

im not a happy snapper,i like to photo close up faces more so,old young men women kids,and general snapping in between,,,

ive read your website many times am member there,i like best your style of photo's,,i think you named,the face of racisism,i think you took whilst you were serving in the forces,,would you send me thhe link to view these images again,,many thanks

im not a big fan of used equipment,as you say for the extra money its worth peace of mind

Edited November 25, 2011 by drum

[manarak]

5D mark III should come out in less than a year, I expect the upgrade to be quite substantial.

Edited November 25, 2011 by manarak

[drum]

yes been reading about the mk3,,makes me think more to get the mk2 maybe the cost will come to,,,im sure the 5d mk2 will be more than camera enough for me, the 450 is but i feel im missing out on the full frame

just one other thing about the 5d,,why they dont have a flash built in,,

[BangkokImages]

thanks bkk image,for the advice and reply,you have answerd questions ive posted before,i have a 450d,then wanted to upgrade to 7d,instead i borrowed a friends,altough the 7d was much more clever than the 450d, and me

the results where pretty much the same,in photo image quality,,so now im thinking to go all the way and get a 5dmk2 40 105 L lens,

im not a happy snapper,i like to photo close up faces more so,old young men women kids,and general snapping in between,,,

ive read your website many times am member there,i like best your style of photo's,,i think you named,the face of racisism,i think you took whilst you were serving in the forces,,would you send me thhe link to view these images again,,many thanks

im not a big fan of used equipment,as you say for the extra money its worth peace of mind

a. Drum: Perhaps you would benefit more from an adult education class in photography or a workshop similar to the type I hold? If you're not getting satisfying pictures from your current gear, new gear is probably not the answer. This is assuming your current gear works properly. Depending on the person and their ability to soak up and retain information, we can cover the equivalent of 2 semesters of college photography in a single day. A good workshop will also let you try different gear so you get an idea of what different gear can do for you. Depending on the persons interest I'll bring along a 5d Mark II, 1d IV, 300mm F2.8L IS II, 85mm F1.2L II, whatever the person has an interest in. Using it for a few hours will clear up any questions you may have had.

I'm going to be doing a series soon using old and relatively crappy cameras to demonstrate how much potential ANY gear has. I have my great grandma's Baby Brownie, and old Instamatic X15, some base level SLR's, and some other models. All of them are capable of really nice images. I've been meaning to do this for a while, I need to get off my butt and get it done.

b. For close up pictures you might want to consider a prime lens in the 85-100mm range. Even a macro lens. For Canon consider the 100mm F2 or the 85mm F1.8. Regardless of bodies you're going to need decent lenses, so maybe starting with the lens first with your current body might be a good idea.. you might find the lens makes the difference you were looking for.

c. Thank you. I'm always humbled when I meet a reader of my site. My site is mostly for the beginner or the no BS photographer who's interested in what the camera can do, and not so much it's technical specifications. Lately we've been doing a lot of computer equipment reviews since that landscape is quickly changing as new gear is brought out. I do more advanced articles as well, but mostly the site is for the average guy who wants to photograph Thailand and achieve nice results without spending a fortune.

d. Yes, I wrote a Musing called"Racism Among Expats"which I penned while severely disappointed with my a few members of my readership when they attacked a good Israeli friend of mine who was kind enough to contribute some feature articles to our site (we're always looking for material). Politics shouldn't be the focus of a photography site. I'm happy to say the message was received and the attacks stopped.

e. Sure. Click THIS LINK to go to the What's New page which lists a brief description of all the new articles we've put up, the current weather and exchange rate, latest forum entries, etc.. I hope to see you there.

f. Some equipment is safer to buy used than other equipment. You can save a lot on lenses. Bodies if well cared for can be a bargain, and external flashes get very little use with your average photographer. You do need to learn a bit about them though.

Good luck with your upgrade. I hope you find what you're looking for.

[BangkokImages]

5D mark III should come out in less than a year, I expect the upgrade to be quite substantial.

I hope you're right, but we thought the same thing waiting for the 5d Mark II to come out. It took 2-3 years past what we thought it would. This time we don't even know there will be a Mark III. With the 1d-X announced Canon is in a strange place. No one knows if they do release a 5d Mark III, if it will be 18mp like the 1d-X along with some of it's new features, or a higher resolution body like we originally expected. I've talked to a lot of insiders who usually have a good idea of what's to come.. and they don't know.

[BangkokImages]

yes been reading about the mk3,,makes me think more to get the mk2 maybe the cost will come to,,,im sure the 5d mk2 will be more than camera enough for me, the 450 is but i feel im missing out on the full frame

just one other thing about the 5d,,why they dont have a flash built in,,

Good question. The 5d Mark II as you know is a full frame camera and because it's full frame the mirror box and prism needs to be significantly larger naturally.. to add a flash would make it bigger than most would care for.

Some will mistakenly say it's an advanced or pro camera and these people wouldn't benefit from an internal flash. I don't agree with this, the more you understand how to use flash properly the more useful it becomes with any camera.

When it comes to flash, I have big powerful wireless units I use professionally.. and then I have a tiny and inexpensive Canon external I can carry in my pocket for the times I need a flash with my DSLR's.. it's tiny, but a lot more powerful and useful than any built in flash could be. A decent compromise.

[drum]

yes i do fully agree i do need educating from a pro work class,, for me when i got my 450d with kit lens 18 55,i think this is a good lens,quick to auto focus and good clear shots in day light,i would take many shots whist sitting in the car as passenger when the g/f was driving,to catch her expressions when driving,and i found auto focus was quick enough to catch them,,then i brought a 50 250 lens,again i think good quick lens for beach shots and so on

then i brought a nifty fifty,not as fast on auto focus but good colours and clear more so for shots of almost still subjects,not very good at focusing in low light in auto mode but ok in manaul,then i got a 85 m prime easy the best lens,, which then made me to think get a better camera better lens,my photos will automaticaly be better,,with training and education progress to get better,,

im a trades man,i understand buying the most exspensive tool will not give me the best results,only when you learn to handle your tools will you get best results,so yes work class is the way forward for me,

one more question,maybe not the last,,why the need for all the photo editing to make a photo look better, i think what you capture in a shot is the photo why mess around with it to make it better,

thanks for the link bkk

[drum]

lets put it another way the question is,which of these will take the better quality picture,colour focus ,set to auto focus, 450d 18 55 lens,or 5d 40 105L lens,in the hands of beginner, or even in the hands of a pro,

or is this a none starter question,

[BangkokImages]

one more question,maybe not the last,,why the need for all the photo editing to make a photo look better, i think what you capture in a shot is the photo why mess around with it to make it better,

This is personal choice. Some post processing such as sharpening is necessary to overcome the effects of the anti-aliasing filters used in most digital cameras which was put there to negate the effects of moire, sometimes you want to change the exposure slightly, or many other reasons. "Editing" used to take place in a dark room, with digital it takes place on the computer. No one is required to edit, but most choose to effect at least small changes to compensate for various factors. Ultimately editing is part of the equation which creates and modifies your art. You do what is necessary to serve your art.

[BangkokImages]

lets put it another way the question is,which of these will take the better quality picture,colour focus ,set to auto focus, 450d 18 55 lens,or 5d 40 105L lens,in the hands of beginner, or even in the hands of a pro,

or is this a none starter question,

In adequate (good) light the differences will be so small 9/10 experienced photographers couldn't guess which image came from which camera. The more available light decreases (the darker it gets), the more the 5d2 will have the advantage growing to a maximum of roughly 2 stops before the differences in capabilities reach the limit.

In addition to this two stop difference the 5d2 will also provide a bigger and brighter viewfinder, less shutter lag, faster AF, and other improvements to help you capture an image the 450d might not be able to capture.. depending on conditions and subject matter.

There are no black and white answers, nor easy ones. These two cameras/lenses will be very equal under ideal conditions, and less equal the more conditions stray from optimum.

[drum]

question,what is the advantage of the full frame camera ?

[BangkokImages]

question,what is the advantage of the full frame camera ?

There are several. If you remember, your Depth of Field calculation is calculated through four variables. Focal length, focal distance, aperture, and the size of the sensor. The longer your focal length, the shorter your focal distance, the wider your aperture, and the bigger the sensor.. the more shallow the depth of field. So, a bigger sensor allows you to more easily achieve a shallow depth of field (for a portrait this would be with the subject in focus, all behind the subject nicely blurred).

There's more. A large sensor properly designed with not too many pixels (photo sites) will have larger photosites. In general, larger photosites allow you to collect light better which means better color and acuity. This mostly manifests itself in lower light situations. In good light there won't be any appreciable difference.

Along with a full frame sensor, you'll enjoy a bigger brighter viewfinder which is a joy to use. In contrast a 450d will appear like you're looking down a cramped tunnel, a full frame won't give you that feeling at all. It will be open and spacious. This makes composing your shots easier and more enjoyable.

Keep in mind that a more shallow DOF isn't always desirable. Sometimes you want a deeper DOF. Again, this comes down to knowing your subject and how you compose the scene you've framed.

And then there's the focal length multiplier. A Canon 450d for instance has a focal length multiplier of 1.6x. So a 100mm lens now gives you the same field of view as a 160mm lens. This might be desirable, again depending on the subject and what lenses you have available. Other times it can be a major impediment. You need to know and be familiar with your tools.

"Generally" for the close in face shots you describe, a full frame sensor is desirable.

An observation: I've had a lot of clients/students upgrade to a full frame sensor camera. They've just spent a lot of money and expect great things. But their new full frame sensor camera is giving them inferior shots compared to their crop frame body. Focus is more soft, etc.. A full frame sensor changes all your calculations.. which means all your experience with a crop frame, what you know to expect for a given situation.. has changed. Before you can benefit from a full frame and really enjoy it's benefits, you'll need to spend a significant amount of time learning how to use it. Once you do, you'll have options photographically you won't have with a crop frame sensor. Whether these options benefit your style of photography.. depends on your style of photography.

An example: A client had a nice full frame DSLR he used for portraits and family. He was starting an online ebay business and needed to photograph products. He tried to set himself up as a product photographer would, studio lights, tilt shift lenses, etc.. and discovered there's really a lot to it.. and until he learned what took product photographers years to learn.. he wouldn't be getting nice pictures from his very expensive setup. In fact, he was getting soft blurry images and the lighting was totally throwing him. He asked what to do. I told him to buy a cheap lighting tent (he was photographing watches, jewelry and other small items) with cheap halogen lights (kits are available on ebay for under $100) and use it with his wife's point and shoot compact. He thought I was joking.. but once he did he started getting well lighted tack sharp images.. exactly what he wanted. The small sensor of a compact point and shoot was providing him with a large DOF making it really easy to keep small objects photographed close up in focus.. and the lighting while flat and unidirectional, was adequate. Not what a pro would do, but perfect for an ebay seller. A pro would photograph the same iteming with interesting or dramatic light.. and would have spent years learning their craft and making small sets for different types of items.

So.. know what type of photography you're most interested in. A more expensive camera might not be right for you. But if it is, and you take the time to learn it well, you'll really enjoy it.

I hope this helps.

[drum]

yes it dose help thanks for the detailed post which you have made understandable, i said some time back i want to upgrade my 450d for the reason i had masterd it,,,no i have not,ive just learnt how to use it, is the fact

im always eager to learn what the camera can do,yes ive masterd that,i know what it dose,im eager to learn how these cameras work,then im thinking to go to a pro work class,is that in your opinion the way to go,first learn how the camera works then home the skills to take photo's, ive no interest in wild life or sport my interest is people doing everyday day things to capture expressions in face and body movement,not under studio lighting conditions just general everyday life,,

[BangkokImages]

yes it dose help thanks for the detailed post which you have made understandable, i said some time back i want to upgrade my 450d for the reason i had masterd it,,,no i have not,ive just learnt how to use it, is the fact

im always eager to learn what the camera can do,yes ive masterd that,i know what it dose,im eager to learn how these cameras work,then im thinking to go to a pro work class,is that in your opinion the way to go,first learn how the camera works then home the skills to take photo's, ive no interest in wild life or sport my interest is people doing everyday day things to capture expressions in face and body movement,not under studio lighting conditions just general everyday life,,

a. Very few people other than those who write instruction books bother to learn 'all' a camera does, most of us including professionals are doing well to just learn the parts of the camera which benefits our own style of photography.

b. I think if someone is serious about photography in that they're going to stay with it for at least several years and hopefully a lifetime.. then a workshop becomes a very good value. Most of my clients take a general workshop which basically brings them to a base level where from we can now specialize in specific styles. Then they come back to learn different styles from flash photography, to photographing a model, to landscapes, to architecture.. whatever suits them. If you've got time and access to college level photography classes I'd recommend those. Not adult workshops though they can be marginally useful, but actual photography classes geared towards art majors/

c. It depends on the level of class you take. If you're not already well familiar with depth of field calculations, how ISO/Shutterspeeds/Aperture/focallength/focaldistance interact, and the basics of composition then you should be looking at a basic class where these things are covered. Look for an actual workshop and not a tour guide service. Make sure you like their photography and they are able to well explain concepts in a way you can easily understand. And if you can, find one who has different levels of equipment you can test.

[drum]

thanks again bkk,,you see this is a problem with most articals on photography the clever people that write them,like to discribe in there camera world tonge,,i have not a clue what there talking about half the time,lose interest and try to figure it out my self,,why cant they talk in lay mans terms so we(beginners) can understand what there talking about,

and another question,request,is there a camera jargon code,ive read some,but even them are not easy to understand,writt by professionals,who know there subject in side out,and must presume all is understandable,to a beginner,, there not,

[BangkokImages]

thanks again bkk,,you see this is a problem with most articals on photography the clever people that write them,like to discribe in there camera world tonge,,i have not a clue what there talking about half the time,lose interest and try to figure it out my self,,why cant they talk in lay mans terms so we(beginners) can understand what there talking about,

and another question,request,is there a camera jargon code,ive read some,but even them are not easy to understand,writt by professionals,who know there subject in side out,and must presume all is understandable,to a beginner,, there not,

a. I don't think it's so much about being clever, but like any professional there will be terminology unique to that profession that saves time and avoids mistakes through a mutually used terminology. Imagine all the different terms we'd have to deal with if everyone just made up their own every time. No one would understand anyone, and there would be a world of mistakes.

b. There are plenty of glossary's at the end of photo books. I'd recommend choosing a basic camera book that fits in your bag, and referring to it often until you remember the terms. Personally, when I do workshops I find if a client can visualize what the term refers to then they'll remember it forever without even trying. To that end I bring a lot of visual aids with me, old lenses and old bodies where when I say "shutter speed" or "aperture" I can show them exactly what this refers to.. and they can see it with their eyes. With digital cameras the same things happen inside, but we can't see them happening as they're all now sealed units. So if I can show them visually, then they can visualize what's happening inside their digital camera with each change of each control.

A while back, years, I started my site with some basic tutorials describing these terms. Perhaps you could read some of them and maybe they will clean up a few things for you.

Histograms

Exposure Compensation

ISO Explained

Aperture

Shutter Speed

Focal Length

Focal Distance

Applying Depth of Field to Portraits

Depth of Field for Compositions

There are a lot more, use the search engines or just go through the index pages and take a look around. I try to explain these subjects in an easy to understand way, but sometimes I wonder how successful I was. Feedback is greatly appreciated, it will help me as I write new versions which I plan on doing early next year.

[Tywais]

There are also some links and tidbits of info in my pinned topic if you haven't gone through it yet - dSLRs Questions & Answers.

BTW - Excellent stuff BangkokImages. Thanks for your contributions, helps a lot. :jap:

[drum]

thanks again,,this is what the beginner needs a pro,who understands the beginners mind,and knows how to get the message over,

i will read your link,and return, for what its worth, my opinion if it makes sense or not,

[drum]

There are also some links and tidbits of info in my pinned topic if you haven't gone through it yet - dSLRs Questions & Answers.

BTW - Excellent stuff BangkokImages. Thanks for your contributions, helps a lot. :jap:

no i have not has yet read that topic,,but i will ,thanks for the link, bkk dose have a cool and patient way he discribes everything well and makes easy reading,,