All Dual Nationality Children Will Lose Thai Nationality

[TerryLH]

"...may possibly include,doing national service in the Thai military,... . He may walk away from that for his own reasons."

It's easy to fulfill their obligation by completing some classes in high school here.

There are other ways, also.

Even if you don't get your exemption for the lottery/draft that way, depending on the needs of the military the year they have to draw, chances are good they wouldn't have to actually go in the service. Chance of the draw, so to speak.

"He may walk away from that for his own reasons."

If they haven't met their obligation through education, serving, not drawing the right color, medical or whatever, they might find it difficult later on if they want to work here.

[samran]

I'm assuming that you also travel using two passports between both countries, to avoid the need for a visa? My son has done this one time; no problems at all. But from what you say, when he comes of age, there is no need to renounce one citizenship, unless one wants too. As my son is dual Thai/Aussie, what is the view of the Australian government regarding dual citizenship when one comes of age? It seems to be acceptable, based on your experiences.

Australia has never has, to my knowledge, any age of majority clause.

For the most part, Australian citizenship law (first passed in 1949) has allowed dual nationality for those who were born with it, and new migrants to Australia who took it up and kept their old passports. More than one million british citizens in Australia is an attestment to that.

The only difficulty was when an Australian citizen (a la Rupert Murdoch) voluntarily took out another citizenship, at which point Australian citizenship was automatically lost. This clause was scrapped in 2002 with a new version of the Australian Citizenship act. Those who had lost their citizenship by this method prior to 2002 didn't automatically get their citizenship back, but could reapply for it, on the provision that they are 'of good character' (ie no criminal record). It wouldn't suprise me if ole Rup is now an Australian citizen again.He may be a pr!ck, but he is an Aussie pr!ck.

[Maestro]

...If at present there is no grey area regarding choice, based on your knowledge, is there a grey area somewhere regarding my son that I should think about e.g. some law that I have not been made aware of etc (that could result in his loss of citizenship)?

I don't know how old your son is but you can help him ensure that he does not monoeuvre himself into a grey area by impressing on him that he should always use his Thai passport to enter and leave Thailand.

You see, the Thai gvernment has authority only within Thailand. As long as your son is in Thailand as a Thai citizen, ie using his Thai passport to enter and leave Thailand and use his Thai identity card for identification of himself in Thailand where and when required, he will always be recognised and treated as a Thai national. Outside Thailand, he should feel free to use whichever passport serves him best, but always use the passport of his other nationality to enter and leave that other country.

I see nothing illegal with a Thai dual national using his other nationality to live and work in Thailand, if this gives him an advantage, but if an envious competitor would want to make trouble for him and has influence in the right places, it could get uncomfortable for this dual national.

[samran]

My Thai wife is now an American citizen. She has an American passport and a Thai passport. She has a Thai ID card that she uses each year when she renews her one-year visa (she lives here on her American passport).

In the 15 years we've lived here, there's never been a reason for her to disclose to anyone that she is a dual-citizen. When it's handy to use her Thai citizenship, she does so. When it's handy to use her American citizenship, she does so. Never a question and never a reason to tell anyone that she has both.

Living in a foreign country, there's always a chance the laws can change.......Thailand could revert to it's pre-2000 laws that forbade Thai women-married to foreigners from buying land. Thailand could refuse to allow any Thai to hold dual citizenship. It could reverse its laws that allow a wife to continue using her maiden name. Lots of things could change....but for now, none of that is a problem.

Chill

Just curious as to why your Thai wife lives in Thailand on her US passport?

[tamsom]

Khun Samran,

How can a nationality be passed through blood?Hello? Your writings are intelligent and fact-based, however. Can anyone show a case where citizenship was stripped from someone? The US is a poor example because my Aunt was a blood-Canadian and then married an American citizen. She continued to have both passports well into her 80's, until she finally ran out of gas. Adios.

[moe666]

Angry parent cool out dude you got a good answer to your problem. But if you want to worry about something worry about you son crossing the soi more chance getting run over than a major change in citizenship but not to say it couldn't happen

[samran]

Khun Samran,

How can a nationality be passed through blood?Hello? Your writings are intelligent and fact-based, however. Can anyone show a case where citizenship was stripped from someone? The US is a poor example because my Aunt was a blood-Canadian and then married an American citizen. She continued to have both passports well into her 80's, until she finally ran out of gas. Adios.

I'm not sure what you don't understand about nationaliy being passed down by blood? In citizenship law terminology it is referred to as "jus sanguinis", Latin for "by the right of blood." In this case, it means the right to citizenship through one's bloodline or ancestry.

In many cases for other countries, once someone gives birth outside of their 'home' country, the ability of that overseas born child to pass on nationality is limited by law. In the case of Thailand, a child of a Thai citizen is automatically a Thai citizen, regardless of place of birth.

We aren't talking about race or ethnicity here either. There are plenty of caucasian Thai nationals who enjoy the same rights. My daughter has blond hair and blue eyes, and is a Thai citizen.

As for cases of where citizenship as been striped. The Thai government via the the government gazette regularly publishes those who have gained and lost Thai nationality.

You'll have to do a search on posts by a member 'Arkady' who has spoken on this. He's trawled through the list and most people who lose Thai nationality do so voluntarily.

[samran]

^^ I should add, he's gone through years of lists and I don't think he has found one case of a dual citizen child being stripped of Thai nationality because they have 'failed' to make a declaration of intent.

[TerryLH]

"The US is a poor example because my Aunt was a blood-Canadian and then married an American citizen. She continued to have both passports well into her 80's"

The US does not give US citizenship based simply on marriage.

There are a few other requirements.

[AngryParent]

...If at present there is no grey area regarding choice, based on your knowledge, is there a grey area somewhere regarding my son that I should think about e.g. some law that I have not been made aware of etc (that could result in his loss of citizenship)?

I don't know how old your son is but you can help him ensure that he does not monoeuvre himself into a grey area by impressing on him that he should always use his Thai passport to enter and leave Thailand.

You see, the Thai gvernment has authority only within Thailand. As long as your son is in Thailand as a Thai citizen, ie using his Thai passport to enter and leave Thailand and use his Thai identity card for identification of himself in Thailand where and when required, he will always be recognised and treated as a Thai national. Outside Thailand, he should feel free to use whichever passport serves him best, but always use the passport of his other nationality to enter and leave that other country.

I see nothing illegal with a Thai dual national using his other nationality to live and work in Thailand, if this gives him an advantage, but if an envious competitor would want to make trouble for him and has influence in the right places, it could get uncomfortable for this dual national.

Thank you!

[mahtin]

Hm, this line of thought may be too philosophical, as an armed conflict between Thailand and the EU, or any EU member country is unlikely.

But not without precedent. Think Victory Monument.

The Franco-Thai War (Thai: กรณีพิพาทอินโดจีน French: Guerre franco-thaïlandaise) (1940–1941) was fought between Thailand and Vichy France over certain areas of French Indochina that had once belonged to Thailand.

For the 1893 conflict, see Franco-Siamese War.

wiki

[thaihome]

"The US is a poor example because my Aunt was a blood-Canadian and then married an American citizen. She continued to have both passports well into her 80's"

The US does not give US citizenship based simply on marriage.

There are a few other requirements.

No it is not simply based on marriage, but it allows the spouse to immigrate to the US outside any country quota and thereby begin the residence qualifying period.

TH

[bkkmick]

To be honest OP I don't think that it's any concern of yours. When your kids turn 20 they'll make their own mind up as to which nationality/nationalities they want as they will be adults. Anyway, the laws with most probably change over the years. As someone said earlier, relax.

[Soutpeel]

How can a country accept a dual national who has served and is a reservist in another country's armed forces?

They can and they do....the only time this could become an issue is if the two countries concerned went to war against each other and the dual national could forced to choose his/her nationality...

Somehow cant see Thailand going to war with the likes of the UK/Aussie/US etc etc

[tombkk]

How can a country accept a dual national who has served and is a reservist in another country's armed forces?

They can and they do....the only time this could become an issue is if the two countries concerned went to war against each other and the dual national could forced to choose his/her nationality...

Somehow cant see Thailand going to war with the likes of the UK/Aussie/US etc etc

I agree. Now. How about in 10 or 20 years from now?

[Arkady]

I don't know if any amendments to the Nationality Act are on the way that would force dual national children to give up their other nationality, if they want to retain their Thai nationality. There is clearly a body of opinion in favour of this and it is not impossible but I have not heard of it from any reliable sources. Thai nationality is a rather complex subject opined on by many but understood by few. By and large the Western embassies are not included in the latter group and there is no reason why they should. They are only expected to know their own nationality laws and my experiences in the British Embassy indicate they employ local consular staff who don't know a great deal even about British nationality laws. Some European countries don't like dual nationality, including Germany, Holland and Norway. Maybe it was one of those trying to make out that Thai law supports supports their own racist nonsense vis a vis nationality laws.

Be that as it may be, consider this. The Nationality Act (Version 2) of 9th February 1992, signed by PM Anand Panyarachun, amended Section 14 of the 1965 Nationality Act thus:

"Section 14. A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father or, or a person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph two is required to make a declaration of his intention to opt for only one nationality and to notify his intention to the competent official within one year of his attaining 20 years of age according to such form and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial regulations. If no notification is made within the said period of time, that person is deemed to have renounced Thai nationality, unless the Minister shall give an order otherwise for each particular case.

If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.”

It is extremely unlikely that any dual national children ever declared their intention of which nationality they intended to retain under the Nationality Act (Version 2) because, lo and behold, Version 3 was promulgated a mere seven weeks later on 31st March 1992, also signed by PM Anand Panyurachan. The new wording of Section 14 in Version 3 was subtly different and removed the obligation to make a declaration of intent and the sanction of automatically revoking the Thai nationality of those who failed to do so.

"Section 14. A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father or, or a person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph two, is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father, mother, or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.”

You may ask what was going on in those heady days in 1992 when a coup installed government was having new laws passed by an unelected national assembly at a rate of knots that has never seen in any other Thai government before or since. Perhaps they were legislating so swiftly that they inadvertently stepped on the toes of some one with high level connections who made their displeasure known directly to Khun Anand, who acted quickly to correct the unfortunate oversight. I have my theories but your guess may be as good as mine. The fact is that before they could bite the teeth were extracted from the new Section 14 which was obviously intended to curb the flow of dual nationals that arose out of another reform in Version 2 that allowed Thai women for the first time to pass Thai nationality to their children unconditionally. Since then that flow of dual nationals with Thai mothers and foreign fathers has turned into a tidal wave and stopping it today would be more difficult than in 1992.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Maestro

[Arkady]

If at present there is no grey area regarding choice, based on your knowledge, is there a grey area somewhere regarding my son that I should think about e.g. some law that I have not been made aware of etc (that could result in his loss of citizenship)?

P.S. Thank you for being honest and telling me you are not a lawyer. Forum posters can often inflate their status and give bad advice and it is only the receiver that suffers.

A problem could certainly arise if your son's other nationality is Singaporean, Malaysian, Indian, Chinese, Japanese or some other nationality that has a blanket prohibition on dual nationality. Norway and Holland now allow it for look kreung and I think maybe Germany does too. There are no current Thai laws that could result in the loss of his Thai citizenship. BTW I am not a lawyer also but I have come across only one Thai lawyer who made any sense on Thai nationality law and she an American who got Thai citizenship as a result of being born in Thailand.

[MAJIC]

@Samram

Thank you Samran!

OK, section 17 is resolved.

What about the section that states one must notify Thailand of intention to renounce the western citizenship within 1 year of age of maturity or will result in automatic termination? I do not dispute your have dual nationality etc... many do and so does my son.

But is this, something that as long as both parties keep quiet all is OK. Or is there the chance - taking your example - if you walked into the Thai govt. office and said, I have dual nationality and did not notify intention of renouncing one, they will immediatly conduct an investigation (for whatever reason inc. an angry official) and the end result will 100% be loss of Thai citizenship?

So if you stir up a Hornets nest,they will start stinging you!

Or to put it another way,if you force the issue,and bring it to the attention of the relevent department,a decision will be made,and it's unlikely to be favourable to you or your family!

Let Sleeping Dogs lie! there are many thousands of other foreigners affected by this (my family included) there is no other way..............permanently shelve it.

Edited November 30, 2011 by MAJIC

[Arkady]

I really hope you are correct, but as a terrified father, who has lived terrified under the visa system:

I was also drwan to: "“Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of

his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai

nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother

has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more

than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of

his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an

active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign

nationality;"

And the killer was: "If no notification is made within the said period or time. that person is

deemed to renounce Thai nationality. unless the Minister shall gi\"e an order otherwise

for each particular case" The 2535 Act.

So, is this a question of keep quiet and hope for the best and if somebody does not like you, the law is already against you and my son is doomed?

Please, I need concrete information! Years of a family is at risk here!

Section 17 refers only to those who acquired Thai nationality as a result of being born in the Kingdom to alien parents (a dwindling band since the 1971 amendments limited this route to Thai citizenship to those born in Thailand to alien parents who both have permanent residence). Thai look krueng are Thai as a result of being born to a Thai father or mother, not as a result of being born in the Kingdom.

[samran]

@Samram

Thank you Samran!

OK, section 17 is resolved.

What about the section that states one must notify Thailand of intention to renounce the western citizenship within 1 year of age of maturity or will result in automatic termination? I do not dispute your have dual nationality etc... many do and so does my son.

But is this, something that as long as both parties keep quiet all is OK. Or is there the chance - taking your example - if you walked into the Thai govt. office and said, I have dual nationality and did not notify intention of renouncing one, they will immediatly conduct an investigation (for whatever reason inc. an angry official) and the end result will 100% be loss of Thai citizenship?

So if you stir up a Hornets nest,they will start stinging you!

Or to put it another way,if you force the issue,and bring it to the attention of the relevent department,a decision will be made,and it's unlikely to be favourable to you or your family!

Let Sleeping Dogs lie! there are many thousands of other foreigners affected by this (my family included) there is no other way..............permanently shelve it.

What are you on about?

[phuketrichard]

hahhahahahah;

what BS; My daughter is American/thai an 17 years old and has held both passports since she was 1 year old and been in and out of Thailand ( on her Thai passport) and into various countries ( on her us passport)

never any trouble

Lives here in Thailand on her thai passport

[Mario2008]

Title edited to make clear this is a question, not a fact.

[mijan24]

[My wife has had dual citizenship Aust/Thai for about ten years now, the Thai Ambassador at the time actually travelled to Townsville (other places as well) to advise the Thai communities of the change when it was announced.

On the side of what does the Australian Governmemnt think - who knows what this particular government thinks? - but back to your point when going through immigration at Sydney Airport all that has ever been said and we travelled quite a bit " what do you have in your other hand (from behind my wife I answered it is her Thai passport in case you want to know when we left Thailand) the Immigration official could not have been nicer - her response was put it away love you have an Australian Passport thats all we need to see".

I know thats not an official view but in my mind it placed things into perpective. :jap:

Edited December 1, 2011 by mijan24

[samran]

On the side of what does the Australian Governmemnt think - who knows what this particular government thinks? -

See post 32 of this thread.

[tombkk]

If at present there is no grey area regarding choice, based on your knowledge, is there a grey area somewhere regarding my son that I should think about e.g. some law that I have not been made aware of etc (that could result in his loss of citizenship)?

P.S. Thank you for being honest and telling me you are not a lawyer. Forum posters can often inflate their status and give bad advice and it is only the receiver that suffers.

A problem could certainly arise if your son's other nationality is Singaporean, Malaysian, Indian, Chinese, Japanese or some other nationality that has a blanket prohibition on dual nationality. Norway and Holland now allow it for look kreung and I think maybe Germany does too. There are no current Thai laws that could result in the loss of his Thai citizenship. BTW I am not a lawyer also but I have come across only one Thai lawyer who made any sense on Thai nationality law and she an American who got Thai citizenship as a result of being born in Thailand.

If you are German and want to apply for Thai citizenship, you have to get a permit from the German authorities for dual nationality before even applying for Thai citizenship, but it is possible to hold both if you play it correctly.

If you are born to Thai and German citizens, it might be easier.

[Maestro]

The child of a Thai parent, even if the other parent is German, is a Thai national by birth, ie the child does not need to apply for Thai citizenship and thus does not have to get a permit from the German authorities. Doe I see this correctly?

[7by7]

I think, but am not sure, that if a German citizen becomes a citizen of another country through naturalisation then they should obtain permission from the German government or renounce their German nationality and if they become German through naturalisation then they should renounce their other nationality; unless the laws of the other country forbid renunciation of citizenship.

If a German citizen has dual nationality through birth then that is not a problem.

My daughter's boyfriend has German nationality because his mother is German and Sri Lankan nationality because his father is Sri Lankan. If they marry and have kids, then those kids will have four nationalities; British, German, Sri Lankan and Thai!

[NanLaew]

My Thai wife is now an American citizen. She has an American passport and a Thai passport. She has a Thai ID card that she uses each year when she renews her one-year visa (she lives here on her American passport).

Just curious as to why your Thai wife lives in Thailand on her US passport?

Tax dodge?