Special Report: Struggling To End Phuket's Transgender Stigma

[technologybytes]

The trouble is, most people only notice the Katoey's who are loud and pushy, that makes it appear that it's in some way representative of Katoey in general. It really is a minority of Katoey who are bad news, many are sweet and kind and thoroughly respectable but the guys with the negative comments do not get to meet them, hence the opinions.

Prejudice is fine when it's based on personal experience, of course if you wake up in cheap hotel room and the Katoey that you took back with you the night before when you were blind drunk has disappeared with your money and passport you will be prejudice, but I'll bet most people's prejudice is based on stories told by others.

I have had katoey steal from me, but I have had girls steal from me also. I have known plenty of honest and decent Katoeys who are perfectly trustworthy in the same way that I have met many Thai Girls that are the same.

I'd guess that for every Katoey standing on a corner being forward and annoying there are thousands just going about their business and annoying nobody.

When it comes to honesty and integrity you have to weigh up each individual as you find them, that's true in all countries and all races and sexual persuasions.

Katoey's are on the whole an important part of Thai culture, and Thailand just wouldn't be the same without them. Get to know a few and you'd be surprised how nice they can be.

Edited November 23, 2011 by technologybytes

[kjhbigv]

" In the UK or Canada (countries of my citizenship), such a place would be out of business overnight."

I reckon if you had a bar in the West End/Soho in London, full of Katoey's and it was commercially viable or even possible, I reckon it would be an instant hit in my opinion!

[KarenBravo]

I'm in phuket, and have a friend whos been here years.Hes recounted stories to me and I have my own.

Lots of them are THIEVES and you had better beware. Dame aware. Because its the rotten truth, ok people, it just is. And not all are bad. but those on the night scene, hookers and bar workers, be on guard and dont believe too much of what they say. Never be trusting is the rule of thumb my fellow falang!

+1

[GOLDBUGGY]

never had a problem with a katoy...or a so called ladyboy. I just always wondered why there are so many of them in Thailand and I dont belive

its just because there are so many here feeling they living in the wrong body, I guess its a money thing also.

Anyway, I know some of them and if I trust a Thai to be a friend if one needs one, I trust them.....(means: its not always a money thing)

I wondered that to! Anyone have any good common sense reason why this is so? I mean if finding a job is more difficult it isn't a money thing as I am sure many are not in the sex industry, and even so that is very competitive.

[endure]

In the UK or Canada (countries of my citizenship), such a place would be out of business overnight.

In the UK (the country of my citizenship) I've spent the last 10 years watching a man transform into a woman (snip and all) working at our local Sainsburys supermarket. S/He's not lost her job and Sainsburys seems to be doing fine.

[softgeorge]

never had a problem with a katoy...or a so called ladyboy. I just always wondered why there are so many of them in Thailand and I dont belive

its just because there are so many here feeling they living in the wrong body, I guess its a money thing also.

Anyway, I know some of them and if I trust a Thai to be a friend if one needs one, I trust them.....(means: its not always a money thing)

I wondered that to! Anyone have any good common sense reason why this is so? I mean if finding a job is more difficult it isn't a money thing as I am sure many are not in the sex industry, and even so that is very competitive.

We have a nieghbour, a guy who decided to become a ladyboy when he was 22. His sister is married to a farang and doing quite well. This guy decided to become a ladyboy to land a farang and get what his sister has. Words straight from his own mouth. 3 yrs later and he still hasn't caught his farang yet, he is not a very attractive looking shemale tho and his femininity is so far way over the top also, which I guess is not helping his cause.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

> I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

Not a reasonable position IMO, I see katoey in receptionist and other office positions in large companies all the time, doesn't say anything about the "seriousness" of the business, except that they value fair treatment at the risk of losing bigoted customers - good on 'em!

> I noticed that the writer of this article addresses Katoeys as "she". Is that correct? What does their paspport show under gender: HE or SHE...

It is only polite to address them how they prefer, never mind the legal paperwork

==========================================

> Why so many boys feel like girls here in this part of the world and nowhere else? You hardly can call them "exceptions" but more a sort of "new generation"... Did the Lord made so much mistakes here in Thailand when he created men and women?

> For me it's clear: it's not natural! You can call me "old-fashioned" but that is not going to change my opinion. That is not how we have been created... We should feel sorry for them (with pittyful respect and no disdain) similarly as with the so many children born with deficiencies in Vietnam after Agent Orange was sprayed over their country....

What a horrible way of expressing your intolerance. I've seen scientific studies that show a significant portion of the population (5~10%) is ** biologically** ambiguous, hundreds of cases where people don't discover their "true" biological sex (as determined by DNA/hormone testing) until they win an Olympic class event and get disqualified. And that's not counting those with psychological/emotional causes - most estimates are around 20% all together, and that's true for whatever nationality harbors the bigoted backwater you hail from!

I reckon the reason they're so much more visible here is the fact that Thailand **is** so much more tolerant that most other places (and I have to believe Sweden is more so than most of the UK) combined with the same reason why the Thai girls most farang are exposed to are so much lovelier than the overall average - self-selecting Darwinism with the root cause=money!

And if you were truly a spiritual person rather than an institutionally programmed religious type, you'd know:

"God don't make no mistakes. That's how He got to be God."

-- Archie Bunker, teacher of tolerance

Edited November 23, 2011 by BigJohnnyBKK

[Fookhaht]

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

You don't have to purchase a plane ticket for her..aeehh...him. What you obviously didn't realized was that some of them do have a brain. I personally do not care who's selling me a ticket.

Have taught some in my master's degree university courses, and all were bright students. The transgender is not really my "cup of tea" either, but Eastlight's harsh and arrogant comments are pretty ugly IMHO.

[F1fanatic]

In the UK or Canada (countries of my citizenship), such a place would be out of business overnight.

In the UK (the country of my citizenship) I've spent the last 10 years watching a man transform into a woman (snip and all) working at our local Sainsburys supermarket. S/He's not lost her job and Sainsburys seems to be doing fine.

And that's actually the point - you know ONE in the UK. How many have you seen here?

Living on Phuket, but not visiting bars or Patong (except rarely and, only during the day), I only see katoeys working in shops, restaurants etc.

I am, even now, suprised every time - as I NEVER saw one in the UK.

They are clearly far more accepted here than they would be in the Western world, and this is one of those areas where Thai tolerance is far superior to Western intolerance. Those I've come across in shops etc. have been v friendly and good at their jobs.

However, even though they are able to live relatively normal lives, I don't doubt that they suffer some discrimination insofar as others may not take them as seriously as they would a 'normal' man.

[cgphuket]

The article was interesting but member post are embarrassing at the display of both ignorance and stupidity of some of the members.

[aguy30]

The article was interesting but member post are embarrassing at the display of both ignorance and stupidity of some of the members.

Why would you expect anything else? After all, this is the ThaiVisa Forum.

[writeshack]

The article was interesting but member post are embarrassing at the display of both ignorance and stupidity of some of the members.

Why would you expect anything else? After all, this is the ThaiVisa Forum.

Lot of posts from uptight guys here. You got caught out didn't you, guys. Got "her" to the room and then bottomed out -- whoops. Live with it.

[lounger]

An individual that is convinced of their sexuality can undergo a sex change in varying degrees with confidence without self recrimination or doubt.

I believe the difficulty arises when an individual is insecure and has to make a series of deliberate decisions starting with 'coming out'. The psychological difficulty, of overcoming apparant opposition, then becomes imbedded in their psyche as an impossible barrier that has been conquered. Thereafter other, lesser decisions relating to crime, violence, drugs become by comparison easy.

[KeyserSoze01]

"Loud, aggressive and violent are all stereotypes associated with the transgender community, especially in Patong."

Sounds about right to me, that is in Patong. Just try to navigate soi Bangla anywhere near soi Crocodile and you will be exposed to the worst of the worst behavior by katoeys anywhere in the country.

"God don't make no mistakes. That's how He got to be God."

-- Archie Bunker, teacher of tolerance

<deleted>, you just lost any semblance of credibility by quoting a fictitious, racist, bigoted television character.

[cdnski12]

I live in a smallish Issan town. The local school has a pudgy Katoey High School Teacher. He wears alow quality wig, held in place by an old piece of leather. Not the most attractive of Katoey's? Evidently he is a good teacher and a passable Volley Ball Player, as per my observation on the local District Sports Day.

Firstly transsexual and transvestite are not the same, neither is gay. One could say that many are homosexual but as a lot of posters don't appear to know what that means either it's unlikely to help.

...and why pick out Phuket as "different" from the rest of the country??

most of the posts are making assumptions that ALL katoeys are the SAME - this is incorrect.

THey also assume that there are more in Thailand than elsewhere - this too is not correct.

THen most posters are actually seeing these people through their own bigoted eyes and coming to some fairly laughable conclusions.

It might also be noted that in Thailand tolerance towards gays (men especially) in Thailand is fairly limited outside Bangkok and the main tourist areas. However in Thailand there is also a strong feeling and therefore social pressure that if you ARE gay it is better to dress up as a woman like a ladyboy even though the two are not necessarily the same but it does allow you to get jobs etc......

As for robbery and violence - well that is largely perception - once you've established a stereotype then you look for stories to re-enforce it and of course ignore all the stories that don't involve a katoey.

[Fookhaht]

"Loud, aggressive and violent are all stereotypes associated with the transgender community, especially in Patong."

Sounds about right to me, that is in Patong. Just try to navigate soi Bangla anywhere near soi Crocodile and you will be exposed to the worst of the worst behavior by katoeys anywhere in the country.

"God don't make no mistakes. That's how He got to be God."

-- Archie Bunker, teacher of tolerance

<deleted>, you just lost any semblance of credibility by quoting a fictitious, racist, bigoted television character.

Cheer-up. At least he was fictitious. No one could be THAT bigoted!

[cowslip]

It's becoming quite clear that there is a large number of homophobes on TV - actually we knew that already. However the depth of ignorance really is staggering. Many also have never encountered any travesties, transexuals or gay scene in their own country and therefore think there is none. They also seem to think that "seeing is believing" which i find naive in the extreme - you can't just rely on your own personal experience a a reliable guide to an entire nation - and you certainly can't rely on what you read in the papers.

I think many posters here really need to get a little media savvy and maybe ten go back to their own countries and reassess the scenes there in the light of their new perceptions here.

[moskito]

Btw. what me concerns more like the ladyboys in Phuket are the Russians...are there any other nationals here atm? I see them everywhere in masses, buying householdstuff furniture cars motobikes....I never see many of them in Restaurants or Bars, just in Lotus or Homepro....do they spend any money here except for houses and bigger things.....I CANT SEE RUSSIAN GIRLS ANYMORE they look ALL same to me

[HerbalEd]

I'm in phuket, and have a friend whos been here years.Hes recounted stories to me and I have my own.

Lots of them are THIEVES and you had better beware. Dame aware. Because its the rotten truth, ok people, it just is. And not all are bad. but those on the night scene, hookers and bar workers, be on guard and dont believe too much of what they say. Never be trusting is the rule of thumb my fellow falang!

Sounds like you just described a few people in the straight and gay male and female population ..... as well as a few in the transgender community.

[HerbalEd]

I'm quite happy to be served a drink or a meal in a restaurant but when it comes to a serious purchase, such as an air ticket for example, I really don't want to deal with a ladyboy. if the owners of a business such as this can't take things seriously then neither can I.

How does having a katoy employee mean a business doesn't "take things seriously." Are you serious?

[luckizuchinni]

I don't think that there are any more gays in Thailand than in other countries, but the stigma in being a feminized gay man is not so great here, so more men who are inclined to the ladyboy characterization (straight men as well) are probably more likely to live that way.

In the US, many, many gay men and transvestites (I realize gays, transvestites, and transexuals are not one in the same) are closeted. The fear ostracism from friends, in the workplace, in the military,on sports teams, etc. So their proclivities for dressing and acting like women are greatly curtailed. I first was introduced to this lifestyle when my wife and I had a gay couple as friends. One guy was a ladyboy at heart. But due to work pressures, he hid it until Saturday night when he would dress like a woman and perform at a transvestite revue. We went several times to see him perform, and we met both straight men and gay men who pretty much did the same thing--that is, hide their proclivities in their daily lives, but let loose on the weekend.

In Thailand, I think there is less pressure to hide this type of lifestyle, so more people are open about it. So for the casual observer, it might seem that there are more ladyboys here than in other places when in reality, they are just more obvious here.

[cowslip]

I don't think that there are any more gays in Thailand than in other countries, but the stigma in being a feminized gay man is not so great here, so more men who are inclined to the ladyboy characterization (straight men as well) are probably more likely to live that way.

In the US, many, many gay men and transvestites (I realize gays, transvestites, and transexuals are not one in the same) are closeted. The fear ostracism from friends, in the workplace, in the military,on sports teams, etc. So their proclivities for dressing and acting like women are greatly curtailed. I first was introduced to this lifestyle when my wife and I had a gay couple as friends. One guy was a ladyboy at heart. But due to work pressures, he hid it until Saturday night when he would dress like a woman and perform at a transvestite revue. We went several times to see him perform, and we met both straight men and gay men who pretty much did the same thing--that is, hide their proclivities in their daily lives, but let loose on the weekend.

In Thailand, I think there is less pressure to hide this type of lifestyle, so more people are open about it. So for the casual observer, it might seem that there are more ladyboys here than in other places when in reality, they are just more obvious here.

Well said!

[Mr Red]

After reading this series of posts, I can only come to the conclusion that the posters on TV are no different than the society in general. Plenty of bashers on both sides of the question, normally equally wrong.

In my opinion (however little that is worth), people should be judged for their contributions, their interaction with folks, and their behavior. So the short answer is -- if you encounter Katoeys in bar situations, expect no less than what you are reading -- from katoeys or from the bar girls, no difference. If you encounter katoey's in non-bar situations such as the ones in the article, you should respect their postions and deal with them in a civilized fashion. While I am far from gay or any other non-straight leaning, I do respect the right of others to their lifestyle and, unless that interferes with my business at hand (would someone point out how that happens?), what difference does it make?

Tolerance is something that needs to be learned here.

Since I am moving to Bangkok in less than a month, thought I would start out my renewed posting career on a proper footing.

[cowslip]

After reading this series of posts, I can only come to the conclusion that the posters on TV are no different than the society in general. Plenty of bashers on both sides of the question, normally equally wrong.

In my opinion (however little that is worth), people should be judged for their contributions, their interaction with folks, and their behavior. So the short answer is -- if you encounter Katoeys in bar situations, expect no less than what you are reading -- from katoeys or from the bar girls, no difference. If you encounter katoey's in non-bar situations such as the ones in the article, you should respect their postions and deal with them in a civilized fashion. While I am far from gay or any other non-straight leaning, I do respect the right of others to their lifestyle and, unless that interferes with my business at hand (would someone point out how that happens?), what difference does it make?

Tolerance is something that needs to be learned here.

Since I am moving to Bangkok in less than a month, thought I would start out my renewed posting career on a proper footing.

" unless that interferes with my business at hand" - what???

[ajarnyai]

I do play the is "she" a katoey game quite often when I hang out with my Thai friends. I can not always tell. "She" could just be a tall women. It's part of the otherworldliness of Thailand that made me want to stay here and experience something different.

One of my farang friends was really paranoid that he was going to to fall for some model looking women and be disappointed. It seemed like he was afraid to stay in Thailand because if that. I certainly understand that too.

I find this whole topic interesting, cause I have to ask what makes one either gender. How can you truly define femininity? I would like to think that if you look like a women (and that changes according to your race, culture etc.), I would treat you like one. If you act like one (and that changes too), I would think of you as one.

On the flip side, It really hurts my ears to hear Thai women say Krap, Krap instead of Kha. My co-workers do it all the time, and to me it's like seeing a women with a thick mustache. Simply wrong...

There is a katoey that eats at a restaurant I frequent and we got to taking about teaching. "She" is a respected teacher and earns quite a lot of money doing it. I don't know what kind of equipment "she's" packing, but "she" does look like a women, albeit a very tall one. I was comfortable in the group setting, but I don't know if I would have a drink with "her" just the two of us as friends.

I would also like to think that if I met a nice girl, no matter how tall she was, I would be able to see the beauty on the inside and outside and ignore the fact that my girlfriend has a penis. I just don't think I'm that open minded...

[KarenBravo]

Wonder how many of you would be happy to have a son actually marry a katoey?

Nah......didn't think so........hypocrites!

[lukejames]

Anyone who posts here saying katoeys are all evil, not your cup of tea and you don't mind them serving drinks but wouldn't want them doing a serious job is without a doubt protesting way tooooooo much.

It's a proven fact that homophobia does not come from a fear or hate of the other but from a personal insecurity.

When politically correct, tolerant respectful middle class Western people who respect straight acting gay men turn in to ultra masculine aggressive fools around camp guys or attractive katoeys that for me is proof positive that it's your own sexuality that is in doubt. You people need a reality check lol

[lukejames]

Wonder how many of you would be happy to have a son actually marry a katoey?

Nah......didn't think so........hypocrites!

Would you not love and support your son no matter what his sexuality is? Gay straight or somewhere in between. If you fear what happens between your sons bedsheets I think that is rather creepy

Edited November 24, 2011 by lukejames

[KarenBravo]

My point is that it is easy to "say the politically correct thing" on an internet forum; they can "talk the talk", but I wager that very few of them can "walk the walk".

Edited November 24, 2011 by KarenBravo

[ajarnyai]

My point is that it is easy to "say the politically correct thing" on an internet forum; they can "talk the talk", but I wager that very few of them can "walk the walk".

Yeah, that's why I said I would like to think I could ignore the differences between women and katoeys.

I think gender is just some social ground rule for behavior. When people move outside that it throws my balance off. My Thai girlfriend thought it strange for me to be able to mend a pair of my pants, and couldn't belief I used to make clothes as a hobby. I guess that's not very manly here in Thailand. She accepted it, but it took a minute for her to understand it was possible.

I think it's the same way for us farang when dealing with the much fairer sex. It's so outside the norm where we come from that it can make some of us act like as&holes. Where here in Thailand, it's not that big a deal.

What did you politically correct guys do when you got the massage while standing at the urinal? I think most of us westerners would agree those guys deserve the ass whoopin they would get, but we should remember we are not home. Different rules. Some things should be universal though...