China Deploys Patrol Boats On Mekong: State Media

[webfact]

China deploys patrol boats on Mekong: state media

BEIJING, December 10, 2011 (AFP) - China has deployed more than 300 armed police to patrol the Mekong river in boats in collaboration with Myanmar, Thailand and Laos after a deadly attack in October, state-run media said on Saturday.

Two months ago, 13 Chinese sailors were killed on a section of the river south of China's border, raising concerns in Beijing for the safety of crews and cargoes sailing south through an area rife with drug warfare and smuggling.

Citing officials, the official China Daily newspaper said that Chinese police would escort 10 private cargo ships, including the boats that were attacked on October 5 by what is thought to have been a drug gang.

"The special force will serve as the first joint-patrol law enforcement team of the national border defense department, committed to safeguarding the international waterway," said public security deputy minister Meng Hongwei.

The Mekong flows through China's southwestern province of Yunnan into Southeast Asia, serving as a major trade route through several countries including Cambodia and Vietnam.

China reacted angrily to the October attack, sending patrol boats down the Mekong to retrieve 164 stranded Chinese sailors and 28 cargo ships and calling on diplomats from Thailand, Laos and Myanmar to speed up investigations.

Since then, police in Thailand have detained nine soldiers who are suspected of killing the Chinese sailors and are also thought to have links with a Myanmar drug kingpin.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-12-10

[Steely Dan]

This is completely different to the recent bout of handbags with Cambodia, the Chinese are obviously furious over the killings and as a result the Countries through which the Mekong flows have lost an element of their sovereignty by having armed Chinese police operating within their territory. Of course words such as 'collaboration' will be used, but imho this is a shotgun wedding style arrangement.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Steely Dan

[EyesWideOpen]

Looks like Thailand really screwed the pooch by the " rogue" Thai soldiers killing those Chinese boat crewmen. Now welcome to Chinese gun boats patrolling on the Mekong , with guns pointed towards the Thai border. Som nam na......

[NxaiPan]

Looks like Thailand really screwed the pooch by the " rogue" Thai soldiers killing those Chinese boat crewmen. Now welcome to Chinese gun boats patrolling on the Mekong , with guns pointed towards the Thai border. Som nam na......

And people wonder why SE Asian countries are becoming more receptive to and even seeking a US presence/influence in the region.

As is happening in many African countries, people in this part of the world are beginning to see that with China's economic muscle comes an increasing appetite to project political/military influence. Rather than playing off the Soviets & Americans we could well be heading towards a scenario where nations play off the Chinese & Americans.

We have already seen this in Myanmar with the government's apparent suspension of the Myitsone dam on the Irrawaddy, which is Chinese financed, due to be built by the Chinese, and the electricity generated was to be transmitted to China. This suspension was an apparent attempt to gain US and general western favour.

Looks like the Mekong, one way or another (Chinese patrols, drug trafficking, dams, resource exploitation), is going to be in the news for a long time yet, but that's hardly surprising when one of the major rivers of the region is shared by 6 nations, all with very different agendas.

Edited December 10, 2011 by NxaiPan

[EyesWideOpen]

Looks like Thailand really screwed the pooch by the " rogue" Thai soldiers killing those Chinese boat crewmen. Now welcome to Chinese gun boats patrolling on the Mekong , with guns pointed towards the Thai border. Som nam na......

And people wonder why SE Asian countries are becoming more receptive to and even seeking a US presence/influence in the region.

As is happening in many African countries, people in this part of the world are beginning to see that with China's economic muscle comes an increasing appetite to project political/military influence. Rather than playing off the Soviets & Americans we could well be heading towards a scenario where nations play off the Chinese & Americans.

We have already seen this in Myanmar with the government's apparent suspension of the Myitsone dam on the Irrawaddy, which is Chinese financed, due to be built by the Chinese, and the electricity generated was to be transmitted to China. This suspension was an apparent attempt to gain US and general western favour.

Looks like the Mekong, one way or another (Chinese patrols, drug trafficking, dams, resource exploitation), is going to be in the news for a long time yet, but that's hardly surprising when one of the major rivers of the region is shared by 6 nations, all with very different agendas.

I agree. China has an agenda when it gives " aid ", and that agenda is the well being of China. It is a bit like borrowing money from a mafia chieftain. In the end you will be paying back a hell of a lot more than you borrowed. I am amazed that any country would accept aid from China, when in the end it is nothing more than a Trojan horse. So this current strategy of running gun boats on the Mekong is simply to throw a bit more fear into Thailand and Laos. China may seem far away to Thais, but it will seem a lot closer when they see armed boats flying a red flag running up and down the Mekong.......

[Rider808]

Looks like Thailand really screwed the pooch by the " rogue" Thai soldiers killing those Chinese boat crewmen. Now welcome to Chinese gun boats patrolling on the Mekong , with guns pointed towards the Thai border. Som nam na......

I fail to see where it reads they were Thai soldiers. In that area its all mixed up, no one really knows who who up around there. KMT, Wa, Shan, etc...if they were related to a drug kingpin, more than likely its someone that grew up on both sides of the border.

[NxaiPan]

Looks like Thailand really screwed the pooch by the " rogue" Thai soldiers killing those Chinese boat crewmen. Now welcome to Chinese gun boats patrolling on the Mekong , with guns pointed towards the Thai border. Som nam na......

I fail to see where it reads they were Thai soldiers. In that area its all mixed up, no one really knows who who up around there. KMT, Wa, Shan, etc...if they were related to a drug kingpin, more than likely its someone that grew up on both sides of the border.

If you read any reliable report (see below) on this incident you will see the connection to the RTA's "elite" anti-narcotics squad. Quite what they were doing and who for, is a whole different question.

http://www.economist.com/node/21538789

[KKvampire]

I agree. China has an agenda when it gives " aid ", and that agenda is the well being of China. It is a bit like borrowing money from a mafia chieftain. In the end you will be paying back a hell of a lot more than you borrowed. I am amazed that any country would accept aid from China, when in the end it is nothing more than a Trojan horse. So this current strategy of running gun boats on the Mekong is simply to throw a bit more fear into Thailand and Laos. China may seem far away to Thais, but it will seem a lot closer when they see armed boats flying a red flag running up and down the Mekong.......

China has behaved with restraint since their sailors were killed. Lets remember Thailand accepted it was their soldiers who were the perpetrators, but acting alone and not under any orders (see news link).A bit different to how Thailand and Cambodia behaved over a temple on their borders.

As far as accusing China of acting as a "Mafia Chieftain", China doesn't interfere in foreign countries unless asked to, certainly not militarily, as many world powers do, and it gives aid when requested. Leave the Mafia style interference to other so called world powers.

http://twocircles.net/2011oct29/thai_soldiers_confess_killing_chinese_sailors.html

Edited December 10, 2011 by KKvampire

[anto909]

China flexing it's muscles gunboat diplomacy style. Don't mess with us or else.

[NxaiPan]

I agree. China has an agenda when it gives " aid ", and that agenda is the well being of China. It is a bit like borrowing money from a mafia chieftain. In the end you will be paying back a hell of a lot more than you borrowed. I am amazed that any country would accept aid from China, when in the end it is nothing more than a Trojan horse. So this current strategy of running gun boats on the Mekong is simply to throw a bit more fear into Thailand and Laos. China may seem far away to Thais, but it will seem a lot closer when they see armed boats flying a red flag running up and down the Mekong.......

China has behaved with restraint since their sailors were killed. Lets remember Thailand accepted it was their soldiers who were the perpetrators, but acting alone and not under any orders (see news link).A bit different to how Thailand and Cambodia behaved over a temple on their borders.

As far as accusing China of acting as a "Mafia Chieftain", China doesn't interfere in foreign countries unless asked to, certainly not militarily, as many world powers do, and it gives aid when requested. Leave the Mafia style interference to other so called world powers.

http://twocircles.ne...se_sailors.html

Quite who was doing what in that interesting little junction of China, Myanmar and Thailand will probably remain as murky as any of the activities there in the last 60 odd years. All sorts of very unpleasant players playing a brutal, high stakes game with little quarter expected or given.

"China does not interfere in foreign countries...." almost made me choke on my bottle of Tsingtao, and then the somewhat weasly "unless asked to". Many foreign interventions use the fig leaf of "being asked". The US went to Vietnam as "advisors" requested by S.Vietnam, the Soviets were "asked" to intervene in Afghanistan and so on.

China is little different.

It sent almost a million troops into N. Korea in late 1950, of course having been asked (begged) by the Great Leader.

Earlier that year 40,000 troops of the PLA invaded and crushed the Tibetans (not sure if they found someone to ask them in that time).

In October1962, taking advantage of the world's attention on the Cuban Missile Crisis, 80,000 PLA troops invaded 2 areas of India in the Aksai Chin and South Tibet, and they were certainly not invited by anyone that time.

China continues to claim ownership of the Indian province of Arunachal Pradesh and there were further border clashes in 1967 and 1987. In continuation of this and due to the fact that India gave sanctuary to the Dalai Lama, the "non-interventionist" PRC has been supporting the Maoist Naxalite insurgent movement in NE India for the last 50 years.

More recently and closer to home the PLA had another "school trip" into Vietnam in Feb 1979 with 200,000 troops and the subsequent fighting killed approximately 50,0000 on both sides (ie almost equal to total US deaths in Vietnam), in a month of hard fighting.

The unasked for aggression with Vietnam continued with more border skirmishes and culminating in a full blown naval battle off the Spratly islands in 1988 sinking 2 Vietnamese naval craft, killing 60 and capturing a further 40 (including a CIA agent). The PLA subsequently occupied (and still do) a chunk of the islands, and for good measure seized a Philippine island in the same chain (this time without any fighting as the Philippine military backed off).

From Mar-Nov 1969 the Communist brothers, China & the Soviet Union, fought a series of skirmishes with some 700 deaths on both sides over ownership of a river island.

Whoops almost forgot; the Chinese navy won their first battle in 300 years when they swatted the fading S.Vietnamese navy in Feb 1974, and occupied the Paracel islands (an illegal occupation which continues to this day).

So life isn't so simple and China is hardly a saint when it comes to flexing its military muscles. Its aggressive military build-up in recent years and its extraordinary claims to most of the South China Sea has helped make the US very popular in many capital cities of countries fearing a confrontation with a resurgent China.

Edited December 10, 2011 by NxaiPan

[KKvampire]

I agree. China has an agenda when it gives " aid ", and that agenda is the well being of China. It is a bit like borrowing money from a mafia chieftain. In the end you will be paying back a hell of a lot more than you borrowed. I am amazed that any country would accept aid from China, when in the end it is nothing more than a Trojan horse. So this current strategy of running gun boats on the Mekong is simply to throw a bit more fear into Thailand and Laos. China may seem far away to Thais, but it will seem a lot closer when they see armed boats flying a red flag running up and down the Mekong.......

China has behaved with restraint since their sailors were killed. Lets remember Thailand accepted it was their soldiers who were the perpetrators, but acting alone and not under any orders (see news link).A bit different to how Thailand and Cambodia behaved over a temple on their borders.

As far as accusing China of acting as a "Mafia Chieftain", China doesn't interfere in foreign countries unless asked to, certainly not militarily, as many world powers do, and it gives aid when requested. Leave the Mafia style interference to other so called world powers.

http://twocircles.ne...se_sailors.html

Quite who was doing what in that interesting little junction of China, Myanmar and Thailand will probably remain as murky as any of the activities there in the last 60 odd years. All sorts of very unpleasant players playing a brutal, high stakes game with little quarter expected or given.

"China does not interfere in foreign countries...." almost made me choke on my bottle of Tsingtao, and then the somewhat weasly "unless asked to". Many foreign interventions use the fig leaf of "being asked". The US went to Vietnam as "advisors" requested by S.Vietnam, the Soviets were "asked" to intervene in Afghanistan and so on.

China is little different.

It sent almost a million troops into N. Korea in late 1950, of course having been asked (begged) by the Great Leader.

Earlier that year 40,000 troops of the PLA invaded and crushed the Tibetans (not sure if they found someone to ask them in that time).

In October1962, taking advantage of the world's attention on the Cuban Missile Crisis, 80,000 PLA troops invaded 2 areas of India in the Aksai Chin and South Tibet, and they were certainly not invited by anyone that time.

China continues to claim ownership of the Indian province of Arunachal Pradesh and there were further border clashes in 1967 and 1987. In continuation of this and due to the fact that India gave sanctuary to the Dalai Lama, the "non-interventionist" PRC has been supporting the Maoist Naxalite insurgent movement in NE India for the last 50 years.

More recently and closer to home the PLA had another "school trip" into Vietnam in Feb 1979 with 200,000 troops and the subsequent fighting killed approximately 50,0000 on both sides (ie almost equal to total US deaths in Vietnam), in a month of hard fighting.

The unasked for aggression with Vietnam continued with more border skirmishes and culminating in a full blown naval battle off the Spratly islands in 1988 sinking 2 Vietnamese naval craft, killing 60 and capturing a further 40 (including a CIA agent). The PLA subsequently occupied (and still do) a chunk of the islands, and for good measure seized a Philippine island in the same chain (this time without any fighting as the Philippine military backed off).

From Mar-Nov 1969 the Communist brothers, China & the Soviet Union, fought a series of skirmishes with some 700 deaths on both sides over ownership of a river island.

Whoops almost forgot; the Chinese navy won their first battle in 300 years when they swatted the fading S.Vietnamese navy in Feb 1974, and occupied the Paracel islands (an illegal occupation which continues to this day).

So life isn't so simple and China is hardly a saint when it comes to flexing its military muscles. Its aggressive military build-up in recent years and its extraordinary claims to most of the South China Sea has helped make the US very popular in many capital cities of countries fearing a confrontation with a resurgent China.

Full of inacurracies and fantasy too many to mention.,And I suggest you research the history of Tibet, part of China

[elgato]

And people wonder why SE Asian countries are becoming more receptive to and even seeking a US presence/influence in the region.

Time to get those Swift boats back into service. "River Rats" to the rescue!

[NxaiPan]

I agree. China has an agenda when it gives " aid ", and that agenda is the well being of China. It is a bit like borrowing money from a mafia chieftain. In the end you will be paying back a hell of a lot more than you borrowed. I am amazed that any country would accept aid from China, when in the end it is nothing more than a Trojan horse. So this current strategy of running gun boats on the Mekong is simply to throw a bit more fear into Thailand and Laos. China may seem far away to Thais, but it will seem a lot closer when they see armed boats flying a red flag running up and down the Mekong.......

China has behaved with restraint since their sailors were killed. Lets remember Thailand accepted it was their soldiers who were the perpetrators, but acting alone and not under any orders (see news link).A bit different to how Thailand and Cambodia behaved over a temple on their borders.

As far as accusing China of acting as a "Mafia Chieftain", China doesn't interfere in foreign countries unless asked to, certainly not militarily, as many world powers do, and it gives aid when requested. Leave the Mafia style interference to other so called world powers.

http://twocircles.ne...se_sailors.html

Quite who was doing what in that interesting little junction of China, Myanmar and Thailand will probably remain as murky as any of the activities there in the last 60 odd years. All sorts of very unpleasant players playing a brutal, high stakes game with little quarter expected or given.

"China does not interfere in foreign countries...." almost made me choke on my bottle of Tsingtao, and then the somewhat weasly "unless asked to". Many foreign interventions use the fig leaf of "being asked". The US went to Vietnam as "advisors" requested by S.Vietnam, the Soviets were "asked" to intervene in Afghanistan and so on.

China is little different.

It sent almost a million troops into N. Korea in late 1950, of course having been asked (begged) by the Great Leader.

Earlier that year 40,000 troops of the PLA invaded and crushed the Tibetans (not sure if they found someone to ask them in that time).

In October1962, taking advantage of the world's attention on the Cuban Missile Crisis, 80,000 PLA troops invaded 2 areas of India in the Aksai Chin and South Tibet, and they were certainly not invited by anyone that time.

China continues to claim ownership of the Indian province of Arunachal Pradesh and there were further border clashes in 1967 and 1987. In continuation of this and due to the fact that India gave sanctuary to the Dalai Lama, the "non-interventionist" PRC has been supporting the Maoist Naxalite insurgent movement in NE India for the last 50 years.

More recently and closer to home the PLA had another "school trip" into Vietnam in Feb 1979 with 200,000 troops and the subsequent fighting killed approximately 50,0000 on both sides (ie almost equal to total US deaths in Vietnam), in a month of hard fighting.

The unasked for aggression with Vietnam continued with more border skirmishes and culminating in a full blown naval battle off the Spratly islands in 1988 sinking 2 Vietnamese naval craft, killing 60 and capturing a further 40 (including a CIA agent). The PLA subsequently occupied (and still do) a chunk of the islands, and for good measure seized a Philippine island in the same chain (this time without any fighting as the Philippine military backed off).

From Mar-Nov 1969 the Communist brothers, China & the Soviet Union, fought a series of skirmishes with some 700 deaths on both sides over ownership of a river island.

Whoops almost forgot; the Chinese navy won their first battle in 300 years when they swatted the fading S.Vietnamese navy in Feb 1974, and occupied the Paracel islands (an illegal occupation which continues to this day).

So life isn't so simple and China is hardly a saint when it comes to flexing its military muscles. Its aggressive military build-up in recent years and its extraordinary claims to most of the South China Sea has helped make the US very popular in many capital cities of countries fearing a confrontation with a resurgent China.

Full of inacurracies and fantasy too many to mention.,And I suggest you research the history of Tibet, part of China

Inaccuracies and fantasy? I'm intrigued, please enlighten me.

[folium]

I agree. China has an agenda when it gives " aid ", and that agenda is the well being of China. It is a bit like borrowing money from a mafia chieftain. In the end you will be paying back a hell of a lot more than you borrowed. I am amazed that any country would accept aid from China, when in the end it is nothing more than a Trojan horse. So this current strategy of running gun boats on the Mekong is simply to throw a bit more fear into Thailand and Laos. China may seem far away to Thais, but it will seem a lot closer when they see armed boats flying a red flag running up and down the Mekong.......

China has behaved with restraint since their sailors were killed. Lets remember Thailand accepted it was their soldiers who were the perpetrators, but acting alone and not under any orders (see news link).A bit different to how Thailand and Cambodia behaved over a temple on their borders.

As far as accusing China of acting as a "Mafia Chieftain", China doesn't interfere in foreign countries unless asked to, certainly not militarily, as many world powers do, and it gives aid when requested. Leave the Mafia style interference to other so called world powers.

http://twocircles.ne...se_sailors.html

Quite who was doing what in that interesting little junction of China, Myanmar and Thailand will probably remain as murky as any of the activities there in the last 60 odd years. All sorts of very unpleasant players playing a brutal, high stakes game with little quarter expected or given.

"China does not interfere in foreign countries...." almost made me choke on my bottle of Tsingtao, and then the somewhat weasly "unless asked to". Many foreign interventions use the fig leaf of "being asked". The US went to Vietnam as "advisors" requested by S.Vietnam, the Soviets were "asked" to intervene in Afghanistan and so on.

China is little different.

It sent almost a million troops into N. Korea in late 1950, of course having been asked (begged) by the Great Leader.

Earlier that year 40,000 troops of the PLA invaded and crushed the Tibetans (not sure if they found someone to ask them in that time).

In October1962, taking advantage of the world's attention on the Cuban Missile Crisis, 80,000 PLA troops invaded 2 areas of India in the Aksai Chin and South Tibet, and they were certainly not invited by anyone that time.

China continues to claim ownership of the Indian province of Arunachal Pradesh and there were further border clashes in 1967 and 1987. In continuation of this and due to the fact that India gave sanctuary to the Dalai Lama, the "non-interventionist" PRC has been supporting the Maoist Naxalite insurgent movement in NE India for the last 50 years.

More recently and closer to home the PLA had another "school trip" into Vietnam in Feb 1979 with 200,000 troops and the subsequent fighting killed approximately 50,0000 on both sides (ie almost equal to total US deaths in Vietnam), in a month of hard fighting.

The unasked for aggression with Vietnam continued with more border skirmishes and culminating in a full blown naval battle off the Spratly islands in 1988 sinking 2 Vietnamese naval craft, killing 60 and capturing a further 40 (including a CIA agent). The PLA subsequently occupied (and still do) a chunk of the islands, and for good measure seized a Philippine island in the same chain (this time without any fighting as the Philippine military backed off).

From Mar-Nov 1969 the Communist brothers, China & the Soviet Union, fought a series of skirmishes with some 700 deaths on both sides over ownership of a river island.

Whoops almost forgot; the Chinese navy won their first battle in 300 years when they swatted the fading S.Vietnamese navy in Feb 1974, and occupied the Paracel islands (an illegal occupation which continues to this day).

So life isn't so simple and China is hardly a saint when it comes to flexing its military muscles. Its aggressive military build-up in recent years and its extraordinary claims to most of the South China Sea has helped make the US very popular in many capital cities of countries fearing a confrontation with a resurgent China.

Full of inacurracies and fantasy too many to mention.,And I suggest you research the history of Tibet, part of China

I think Nai Pan has nailed your " China non-interventionist" argument fair and square.

Not wishing to kick someone while they are down but I can't resist taking issue with your claims that Chinese aid is only driven by good intentions. Let the Guardian (Britain's most left-wing intelligent newspaper) put your stance to the sword:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/08/development.topstories3

Sudan & Zimbabwe propped up by Chinese "aid", hard to think of two less deserving regimes in need of support.

To keep on topic and stay in the region, China's support for the military in Myanmar/Burma again highlights their ruthless, opportunistic approach to "aid".

Chinese gunboats on the Mekong? Fits the pattern and comes as no surprise if you actually look at what China is trying to achieve both regionally and possibly on a more global scale.

[KKvampire]

I think Nai Pan has nailed your " China non-interventionist" argument fair and square.

Not wishing to kick someone while they are down but I can't resist taking issue with your claims that Chinese aid is only driven by good intentions. Let the Guardian (Britain's most left-wing intelligent newspaper) put your stance to the sword:

http://www.guardian....ent.topstories3

Sudan & Zimbabwe propped up by Chinese "aid", hard to think of two less deserving regimes in need of support.

To keep on topic and stay in the region, China's support for the military in Myanmar/Burma again highlights their ruthless, opportunistic approach to "aid".

Chinese gunboats on the Mekong? Fits the pattern and comes as no surprise if you actually look at what China is trying to achieve both regionally and possibly on a more global scale.

Really? Don't think so,, The guardian article was Hilary Benn complaining that China was making Multi Million dollar deals with African countries and not demanding "democratic reforms" in return, in other words "interefering in another countrys affairs" .In Myanmar China gave Humanitarian aid and maybe it did have some influence as there are now major reforms with at last open free elections in the near future and the release of a major political figure. Having some presence on the Mekong only after some of its sailors were 'killed and maybe murdered is hardly extreme. I can think of some large countries who would have took tougher measures.

Edited December 10, 2011 by KKvampire

[folium]

I think Nai Pan has nailed your " China non-interventionist" argument fair and square.

Not wishing to kick someone while they are down but I can't resist taking issue with your claims that Chinese aid is only driven by good intentions. Let the Guardian (Britain's most left-wing intelligent newspaper) put your stance to the sword:

http://www.guardian....ent.topstories3

Sudan & Zimbabwe propped up by Chinese "aid", hard to think of two less deserving regimes in need of support.

To keep on topic and stay in the region, China's support for the military in Myanmar/Burma again highlights their ruthless, opportunistic approach to "aid".

Chinese gunboats on the Mekong? Fits the pattern and comes as no surprise if you actually look at what China is trying to achieve both regionally and possibly on a more global scale.

Really? Don't think so,, The guardian article was Hilary Benn complaining that China was making Multi Million dollar deals with Africa for both countries benefit while not demanding "democratic reforms" in return, in other words "interefering in another countrys affairs" .In Myanmar China gave Humanitarian aid and maybe it did have some influence as there are now major reforms with at last open free elections in the near future and the release of a major political figure. Having some presence on the Mekong only after some of its sailors were 'killed and maybe murdered is hardly extreme. I can think of some large countries who would have took tougher measures.

So according to you, China only gave "humanitarian aid" to Myanmar and you are also suggesting that thanks to the Chinese, not only were elections held in Myanmar but also that the Chinese enabled the release of Aung San Suu Kyi ?

That's almost as believable as your claim that the Chinese have never intervened militarily overseas which a previous post shot down in spectacular fashion. Care to address that claim? Looks like you are long on support for China and short on evidence.

[KKvampire]

So according to you, China only gave "humanitarian aid" to Myanmar and you are also suggesting that thanks to the Chinese, not only were elections held in Myanmar but also that the Chinese enabled the release of Aung San Suu Kyi ?

That's almost as believable as your claim that the Chinese have never intervened militarily overseas which a previous post shot down in spectacular fashion. Care to address that claim? Looks like you are long on support for China and short on evidence.

Maybe they did, maybe they didnt have influence on Myanmar. Fact is the Chinese have no military ambitions overseas and the Chinese "knockers" usually from Western countries are caught out when their own foreign military escapades have proved so disastrous in foreign policy terms , their own economies and humanitarian reasons. You need evidence for that? I wont waste my time adding hundreds of reliable links.

Edited December 10, 2011 by KKvampire

[NxaiPan]

So according to you, China only gave "humanitarian aid" to Myanmar and you are also suggesting that thanks to the Chinese, not only were elections held in Myanmar but also that the Chinese enabled the release of Aung San Suu Kyi ?

That's almost as believable as your claim that the Chinese have never intervened militarily overseas which a previous post shot down in spectacular fashion. Care to address that claim? Looks like you are long on support for China and short on evidence.

Maybe they did, maybe they didnt have influence on Myanmar. Fact is the Chinese have no military ambitions overseas and the Chinese "knockers" usually from Western countries are caught out when their own foreign military escapades have proved so disastrous in foreign policy terms , their own economies and humanitarian reasons. You need evidence for that? I wont waste my time adding hundreds of reliable links.

So apart from

their intervention in Korea in 1950

their "intervention" in Tibet in 1950

their war with India in 1962 over Aksai Chin & South Tibet

their border clashes with the Soviet Union in 1969

their illegal seizure of the Paracel islands and naval battle with S. Vietnam in 1974

their invasion of Vietnam in 1979

their naval battle and seizure of various Spratly islands from Vietnam & the Philippines in 1988

their continuing claims to Arunachal Pradesh and more recently the entire South China Sea

what has China ever done in terms of military intervention?

Please answer the question rather than bringing up other nations' chequered history. You claimed that China followed a different path and has never indulged in military adventures beyond its borders (apart from gunboats on the Mekong but that's different of course). If China is innocent of all of the above, what evidence do you have to support your claim?

Edited December 10, 2011 by NxaiPan

[Johpa]

Full of inacurracies and fantasy too many to mention.,And I suggest you research the history of Tibet, part of China

I suggest you stop drinking the Beijing Kool-Aid. Just because the Chinese were able to take control of Siam without firing a single shot or sending a single troop, thus creating the most southern Monthorn, does not eradicate the fact that they occupied Tibet via a military exercise. So we have this purportedly Theravada Buddhist nation, Thailand, kowtowing to its Confucian masters in Beijing, and not allowing the Dalai Lama to set foot in the Kingdom. Or more recently two weeks ago, at Payap University up north on the student's "International Day" the students from both Tibet and Taiwan were forced, at the last minute, to take down their food booths so as not to offend the oh so easily offended consulate officer from Beijing.

[folium]

So according to you, China only gave "humanitarian aid" to Myanmar and you are also suggesting that thanks to the Chinese, not only were elections held in Myanmar but also that the Chinese enabled the release of Aung San Suu Kyi ?

That's almost as believable as your claim that the Chinese have never intervened militarily overseas which a previous post shot down in spectacular fashion. Care to address that claim? Looks like you are long on support for China and short on evidence.

Maybe they did, maybe they didnt have influence on Myanmar. Fact is the Chinese have no military ambitions overseas and the Chinese "knockers" usually from Western countries are caught out when their own foreign military escapades have proved so disastrous in foreign policy terms , their own economies and humanitarian reasons. You need evidence for that? I wont waste my time adding hundreds of reliable links.

Having recently spent some time in China on business, I was chatting to some Chinese colleagues today, and I mentioned to them the issue of the Mekong river patrols to gauge their attitude.

Their response was that this was all a case of China regaining its correct position in the world and putting behind it the disgrace of the Opium wars, Unequal Treaties, European gunboat diplomacy, the Yangtze patrol etc, etc Which if you visit the National Museum in Beijing all makes sense, as almost the entire section devoted to modern history is about righting the wrongs of the past and how China has been held back by colonialism. Seems like this version of kool-aid has been drunk deep into the mind-set of China today. Makes one think.

Fascinating and hugely ironic as the chapters are now merely being replayed but now with China as the aggressor, and as a previous poster pointed out this all fits into the recent history of China flexing its muscles since 1949.

[KKvampire]

... "now with China as the aggressor " Aggressor ? Someone needs to get their dictionary out.

Thailand supports the "joint patrols" along with other nations.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=R4JHD3Bt1_k

Edited December 12, 2011 by KKvampire

[folium]

The long list of military interventions/invasions/clashes in the earlier post do show the aggressive nature of China's policy , or did they never happen?

Re the gunboat diplomacy on the Mekong and given Thailand's notoriously prickly defense of it's sovereignty, it is not difficult to assume that LOS was made an offer that could not be refused.

[KKvampire]

The long list of military interventions/invasions/clashes in the earlier post do show the aggressive nature of China's policy , or did they never happen?

Re the gunboat diplomacy on the Mekong and given Thailand's notoriously prickly defense of it's sovereignty, it is not difficult to assume that LOS was made an offer that could not be refused.

Ahh I see. So the agreeing to security of shipping on the Mekong because of deaths and illegal activity is because of a country's "prickly defense of sovereignty" Was that the case during the incidents about the temples on the Thai/Cambodian border?

The China haters always creating something in their minds to enforce their prejudices.

Edited December 12, 2011 by KKvampire

[folium]

No, Thailand's acceptance of Chinese naval patrols within it's boundaries is not "because of" but "despite Thailand's notoriously prickly line on it's sovereignty". Hence the border clashes with Cambodia.

The concept of sovereignty being almost sacred goes to the very heart of modern Thailand and how it sees itself.

Far from being a China hater I find the country and it's people fascinating and fun to spend time with.

All major powers be they China, USA or USSR/Russia, have their agendas and can and have been ruthless in their defense throughout history. Your view of China being innocent of military aggression and merely benevolent in it's allocation of aid is simply devoid of any evidence or credibility.

[KKvampire]

All major powers be they China, USA or USSR/Russia, have their agendas and can and have been ruthless in their defense throughout history. Your view of China being innocent of military aggression and merely benevolent in it's allocation of aid is simply devoid of any evidence or credibility.

Difference being , China doesn't get involved militarily way beyond its region, something the other major powers you quoted have found irresistible and you have failed to produce "evidence" that China was an "aggressor" by having patrols on the Mekong, something that stretches "credibility"

Edited December 12, 2011 by KKvampire

[lovelaos]

Isn't this a JOINT operation?? http://english.people.com.cn/90883/7672222.html

[NxaiPan]

Isn't this a JOINT operation?? http://english.peopl...83/7672222.html

aka 3rd Opium War, but nowadays more meth than poppy.

[NxaiPan]

All major powers be they China, USA or USSR/Russia, have their agendas and can and have been ruthless in their defense throughout history. Your view of China being innocent of military aggression and merely benevolent in it's allocation of aid is simply devoid of any evidence or credibility.

Difference being , China doesn't get involved militarily way beyond its region, something the other major powers you quoted have found irresistible and you have failed to produce "evidence" that China was an "aggressor" by having patrols on the Mekong, something that stretches "credibility"

Glad to see that at least you have now given up claiming that China has never intervened militarily across its borders, that its aid programme only has humanitarian objectives and that China was responsible for the recent reforms in Myanmar and the release of Aung San Suu Xyi for good measure.

But now you have moved the goalposts and while you excuse any regional interventions (why should invading India, Vietnam, Tibet or Russia really matter, or illegally occupying parts of the Paracel & Spratly islands be of any concern?), now you claim that military involvement by China is unheard of outside SE/E Asia.

Earlier this year to much fanfare the ex-Soviet aircraft carrier, Varyag, was relaunched and with a further 2 carriers under construction it looks like they will be somewhat more employed than Thailand's rather sad carrier, Chakri Naurubet, which seldom leaves port. China has made no bones about its intention to develop a blue water capability (naval force projection beyond a nation's immediate region) and carriers have no other genuine strategic function. Preparation for this role is a handy by-product of China's on-going participation in anti-piracy naval operations off Somalia.

While this naval activity is largely yet to come, more recently China has nudged into 4th in the world of arms exporters (and possibly higher as much of its arms trade is via 3rd parties or client governments such as Pakistan & N.Korea), and this has increased materially in the last 3 years. While the arms trade undertaken by the USA, Russia, France etc equips many of the world's grim governments China's clients are little to boast about, Myanmar, Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe amongst others. China even backed the wrong horse in Libya supplying weaponry to Qaddafi during the recent conflict. This needed some rapid backtracking and blustering once it became clear that Qaddafi was doomed and the significant Chinese investments in Libya's oil & gas industry were in jeopardy for making the wrong call.

China's nuclear policy is obviously somewhat opaque but there is credible evidence linking them to Iran, Algeria, Pakistan, N.Korea, Syria and even possibly S. Africa.

In a nutshell China is little different and becoming ever more like the other world powers in terms of its desired force projection, arms sales, willingness to intervene militarily and nuclear transfers. The era of China as the colonial victim is well and truly over and economic clout now marches in step with military/political objectives on a widening regional/world scale.

Global Times (the Chinese Communist Party's tabloid for international coverage) backs this up in the article below which underlines the importance of overseas bases for China's military. The CCPs own newspaper can hardly be dismissed as China haters.

http://opinion.globa...-05/658995.html

Edited December 12, 2011 by NxaiPan

[NxaiPan]

All major powers be they China, USA or USSR/Russia, have their agendas and can and have been ruthless in their defense throughout history. Your view of China being innocent of military aggression and merely benevolent in it's allocation of aid is simply devoid of any evidence or credibility.

Difference being , China doesn't get involved militarily way beyond its region, something the other major powers you quoted have found irresistible and you have failed to produce "evidence" that China was an "aggressor" by having patrols on the Mekong, something that stretches "credibility"

Looks like the Seychelles will be the Chinese navy's first stopping-off spot (cannot call it a base as the Chinese don't do overseas bases), for resupply and recreation, and what a great spot for R&R. See attached piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/china-says-mulling-offer-from-seychelles-to-act-as-naval-resupply-and-recreation-base/2011/12/12/gIQA5e5lqO_story.html

From the Mekong to the Seychelles force projection will be a growing activity for China as it takes up the mantle of a great power.

[Scott]

An off-topic, inflammatory troll post removed.