A Female Luk Kruengs Viewpoint

[cardholder]

As I said you have baggage - and issues.

We will have you burning whores at the stake next.

Tell me, what are views of the Thais who take mia noi's ?

[mataus101]

ok forget it, lets praise hookers then, they are wonderful angels.

let them be, they are fantastic, you can marry one if you wish.

I was wrong, prostitutes are amazing, all people should aspire to became hookers.

make our parents proud.

[cardholder]

Now you are only adding credence to my post #182

[mataus101]

ok cardholder, if believing that makes you feel good.

i will say again what i believe so we don't forget, bar girls are filthy.

[Ijustwannateach]

On the other hand, is this "denial" so bad?

I work here, and except for monthly VFW meeting, socialize mostly with Thais. I don't have the time nor inclination to go to the bars. (The last time I was in a bar was to take a visiting customer 2 or 3 years ago. ) So what follows is not based on personal predilections nor trying to justify my own lifestyle.

If a western man chooses to live out the remainder of his life playing the bar scene, "denying" his age, health, real relationship with Thais, etc., and if there are "mercenary" Thais, who support that lifestyle, who cares? What is wrong with the "delusion" that one is not at a given "age/stage of life.?" As I get older, I hope I never feel the need to act or conduct myself as others feel is appropriate for an older man.

Back in San Diego, I knew an Italian immigrant in his mid 80's. He lived in a tiny closet of an apartment and ate very frugally. His financial situation was dire. But he had some very sharp suits, and he spent most days sitting in the sun outside of various cafes (where he usually only ordered a coffee.) He would jump up to pull seats out for women, and every woman walking by would get a tip of his hat. His big thing was to go to the opera, which he could only do a few times a year. He had grand delusions that he was a sophisticated man who was loved by the opera crowd. Yet no one ever from that crowd ever visited him. In reality, the guy was desperate for company, and I would sometimes take him out for lunch. I think his delusions about his situation were merely coping measures with reality. And if that helped him so, so what?

So we have a guy in San Diego in denial, as you described, and guys in Pattaya in denial. And if you think about it, they are pretty much the same. One goes to the opera and one brings back a bargirl. Who is to say that this is wrong, that this is a problem?

I am no young buck, but I am fairly fit and active. But the pages of the calendar are flipping, and it won't be long until I fit that demographic. I am not sure how I will react. Will I deny my condition? Will I deny my faltering physical resources?

I hope so.

Hey, Bonobo.

I don't think you are in denial at all, nor do I think you are likely to become that way- mainly because you are too aware of yourself. For example, I don't think it's a big secret that you are heavily into fitness and take care of yourself very well. That's not a sign of denial; it's a sign of awareness. In terms of the example you mention, it isn't the practice of people dating much younger persons or hanging out in beer-bars that means someone is in denial: it's the awareness of what they are doing.

The problem with denial (in a blanket sense) is that it allows those who practice it to ignore their responsibilities towards others as well as themselves. At best, this leads to neglect; at worse, it becomes abusive.

For example: one common bit of denial seen on this very thread (not by you!) is that it is ok to routinely expect a different set of responsibilities and duties for women based on their being women, without consideration of their being equal first-class human beings as men. Clearly, the women who have stated their opinions are not very happy with this- this denial by some men is inconsiderate of their feelings and their rights to equal kinds of responsibilities as human beings.

Self-denial might seem only to affect the individuals in question, but when it becomes extreme it also inconveniences those around an individual. If someone we are friends with has neglected his health, or finances, or other important areas of his life- when problems resulting from this become critical and expensive, it is the group of friends who will have to ante up to cover the responsibility or provide extra support, or else abandon the friend. I'm not saying that this isn't one of the reasons to have friends, but- as an example- denial that one may need insurance, leading to one not having insurance, is very inconsiderate towards one's friends if one presumes that they should pay for one in an emergency.

Denial of the reality of one's state becomes self-deluding in a way that insults the intelligence of others. I do have one or two older friends, for example, whose dating lives are mainly based around bars with, um, 'commercial' women- but they are not in denial. They don't claim that these women are with them for any non-financial reasons, nor do they have any illusions about 'falling in love'. So when they talk about their dating lives, I don't feel tempted to roll my eyes. On the other hand, when I hear long tales of woe from men whose partners have 'let them down' and 'only care about money', only to discover that those partners were picked up somewhere in a gogo place and have been consistently financially rewarded from the beginning, I do not feel welcome to say the obvious: 'They haven't let you down emotionally; you are delusional!!!' I imagine that such persons wind up only feeling comfortable around others who will tell them what they want to hear- a delusional support group... this means it is unlikely they will develop real friendship networks for support.

It isn't the activity itself- in the dating realm you mention- which makes someone delusional- it's their awareness of what they are really doing and why. In that respect, Thailand's tourist scene is particularly accommodating to the delusional and those who remain stuck there are rarely doing themselves or any persons who might become their real friends any favours. I can't see someone with eyes as fully open to his own nature and behaviour as you ever being much in denial in this sense.

I can feel twinges of sympathy myself for the poor old man you describe in your message- and I understand why you feel this way for him. I'm glad you spent time with him, and probably no harm done (to you) by letting him have these beliefs. But what if it was his own denial about how things were that took him (from the past) into this state? What if he had had more realistic beliefs that had prepared him more sufficiently for his old age? The desperate old men of today were the delusional not-so-old men of yesterday, and that is the state in which one finds many disasters-in-the-making among foreigners here today. Just consider the classic tales of 'men-who-lost-everything-to-the-scheming-woman' that are so common here... if those men were not in some serious denial, would they have fallen on such hard times?

OK, that explains your point better. When denial has deleterious effects on your self and loved ones, then yes, it is a problem.

But then there is Thomas Gray's famous quote "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise." Unless the gents are already moaning about being taken for all their savings by their sweet, loving honey, if they can live in delusion and be happy about it, well, that is better than being miserable and just marking time until their earthly journeys end.

Being ex-military, I am very familiar with the Philippines and Filipina-American marriages. And as retired military often settle down around military bases, I knew many, many older gents with much younger Filipina wives. Being closer to the wives' ages, I often had conversations with the wives at various parties or functions. While one woman was well known for having secret assignations at every opportunity, the rest seemed to be devoted to taking care of their husbands. I don't think love entered into the equation, and two admitted to me that there was no love felt to their hubbies. But they felt both gratitude and a sense of duty to their husbands and would care for them until each passed away.

I am not asserting that their husbands were in denial over whether their wives truly loved them. Frankly, I don't know. But if they did think that they had found love, if they were happy, then so what? Better to be happy even if based on a house of straw than be miserable while fully aware of the truth.

If denial and delusions cause harm, then yes, this is an issue. But if our intrepid ex-pat really does think he is a "hansum man," or that while the bargirls might go with others as part of their job, they really like going with him above and beyond the money, well, what's the harm?

If someone is past the point of doing any better for himself, then I agree with you- why not? If someone in his dotage can make an acceptable arrangement with partners much, much younger and manages to fall for them a bit, without being taken advantage of beyond the original deal, I can't really fault them- what else would they have to look forward to? Who am I to say that people in that position should be forced to confront a harsher reality when they have the means to escape?

However, the sad truth is that many of the people in this kind of trap are nowhere near such dire straits, and could do much better. Someone above commented in a manner that seemed to assume it was 'common sense' that a 60 yo man would feel silly if he realised he could be with a 20yo. I would say that if the 60 yo man has his head on straight, he would rather be with a well-kept intelligent 50 yo, and it wouldn't be all that hard for him to find someone who would probably be loving and devoted (and most likely well-experienced in bed). Maybe this isn't true in every single case, but unless the 60 yo man is really in denial about what the relationship is about, I think he would find the 50yo much better suited emotionally and even physically.

And my message was not meant only to be addressing romantic life and its issues of denial. You see foreign men in horrible states here unable to relate to other people, unable to have functional connections with real people at work or in their personal lives because of issues related to denial of the consequences of their own words or behaviour. Even if they are likeable people- which they often are not- it is nearly impossible to help them, and their behaviour causes negative consequences to those foolish enough to stay near them.

Something I noticed quite some time ago in another country was that this type of misfit was common among expats, because frequently such persons have run away from home because they 'did not fit in', assuming it was home that was the problem. Unfortunately the percentage of such persons who manage to stay here for a longer time is much higher than in other countries. This leads me to be very cautious of meeting new foreigners here- especially men- until I can see if they are truly aware and responsible persons who aren't likely to suddenly betray my trust or cause me other problems because they are simply not capable of being responsible for their actions (due to their denial).

[cardholder]

An erudite post.

I didn't agree with the 60 year old man appraisal though. I agree that the 20 year old partner is a shallow and likely short-lived scenario. I would dispute about wanting to share life with a 50 year old. OK, where do we draw the line? Let's say a 20 year age gap - there is no doubt there is a greater physical attraction (at least on the part of the older partner ). Of course, there is more to life than sex.

I didn't choose my Thai partner for the cerebral challenge or to discuss the green pound or premiership soccer. If I want that I will go and see one of my chums. What I get out of a relationship with a Thai partner, 19 years my junior, is a totally different culture and outlook than I had experienced in my home country. I cannot put a price on the value of the shared experiences of seeing some beautiful parts of Thailand (and other nearby countries), learning what the bird is that has the voice of an angel, fumbling through language differences and the ensuing communication problems - even helping with the rice harvest.

[ludditeman]

Well if you cant see that i clearly pointed out i was talking about the ones that are being used, so be it, I also pointed out those that are fooling themselves are pathetic.

please read it again all.

now ludditeman, be realistic, everyone knows what a sex tourist is, don't make up your own definitions.

clearly it is someone touring for the purpose of mainly sex only, so please talk straight and don't bullS#$t.

I am judging, so what, after all when you have a real relationship it's the relationships mentioned above that make people look at all in a bad light, it's those farang and thai liars that make the visa laws harder for legit people.

no love for liars here, look deeper at the damage they cause, both the men and the woman.

how many western woman date old men, cannot talk true here because many of you may well be doing it.

if my daughter bought home an old man, i would not allow it, perhaps you should all look at it that way, it's filthy

and im entitled to that opinion, and i'm sticking to it, its absolutly disgusting, could you imaging banging a 75 yr old woman, same thing.

You and I believe we are having 'real' relationships.

All the other 'old fools' believe they are having real relationships.

What I am trying to point out to you is that nobody considers themselves an 'old fool', yet all of us are saying 'our girl is different'.

All the men are playing the one game, all the women are playing a different game.

But you are going on to despise old men with young women!, why?, Pattaya is full of young men buying girls their own age or older.

If you want to buy yourself a girl your own age, it's really no different to buying yourself a younger woman (or man). Whatever floats your boat.

[ludditeman]

the girl you sleep with is somebody's daughter.

What a shock. Whose plough and lao khao do you think the punter's paying for?

I'm fairly sure every girl I ever slept with was somebodies daughter.

(Unless I made a big mistake, in which case it might have been somebodies son)

if its a slave she cannot leave or date, you know that so don't play games.

only those of there own accord can leave, slaves cannot.

do you think the owner will let his prized slave leave with an old man.

it's the girls working by choice who can leave by choice.

Is your wife free to leave or date?

If not does that make her a slave?

Edited December 18, 2011 by ludditeman

[Scully]

I have not read stickman for years due to the picture it paints of Thai women. What a refreshing change to see a lady with the same views as myself, I have a friend who took a girl out of the bar and took her took her to the UK.

She has done very well for herself and makes some very good money in Soho .

[luckizuchinni]

thats the answer i expected cardholder, if i say i dont like something, its because i have baggage, i expected that.

i am happily married, have a wonderful daughter, another baby on the way.

my job is ok, not great but it pays well.

most important is our family are tight.

no baggage, but i can express an opinion still, if i express an opinion does that mean i have issues.

perhaps people are not happy with the sex tourist comments and the old men getting used comments because they see a little of themselves in there.

perhaps they have the baggage, i am highly spoken about certain moral issues.

i will say it all night, sleeping with bar girls is filthy, and sleeping with old people is filthy.

if that means i have baggage, then i want to keep that baggage.

I don't know you, so I can't say one way or the other about you specifically.

But what I can say is that when I hear people on a moral high horse about things like this is that I am immediately reminded of the Taliban, the people in Afghanistan who put a woman in prison because she was raped, the people in Nigeria who stone a woman to death because she was raped, the God Hates Fags group in the US, the Saudis stoning to death one of their princesses and beheading her French lover for having an affair, and so on.

If you personally don't like sleeping with bar girls, no problem. If you won't have sex with a younger woman, no problem. But when you make an effort to espouse your views so vehemently, taking the pulpit with such a supposedly high moral ground, well, that is why others think you have issues. I am not saying this is the case with you in particular, but this is typical of the Carrie Nation Syndrome.

Please rest assured that this post is not a flame. You are certainly welcome to your opinions. But I understand the reactions your posts have created, and I personally think it is sad when anyone is so judgmental on others when no harm is being done.

[luckizuchinni]

I should point out that if in the marriage between the young lady and her old old man he is aware of the fact he is being used, thats fine.

He is using her, she is using him, great,

however what I think is pathetic is when they cannot see it, and they are clearly being used but walk around with there head held high, thinking everyone is looking at them like some god, when really people are laughing at them and thinking ohhh you poor misguided fool.

Those that are aware that it is often just a business transaction, often but not always, fine, those that are not, take the blinkers off.

Why shouldn't he hold his head high, why shouldn't his girl hold her head high. You think he should cower and hide because he shouldn't have a right to be happy?

If he's happy and she is happy then who the hell is anyone else to pass judgment.

To me, he isn't the fool, he is happy and proud to be happy. You are the fool for trying to make yourself feel better at what you mistakenly see as misguided happiness.

You may feel better about yourself if you just take people as they are and enjoy in their happiness.

The problem is SHE ISNT HAPPY. A 20 year old girl with a 65 year old man is not happy. In virtually every single one of these relationships there is absolutely no chemistry. Hell, they can barely even communicate. Shes got broken, limited English and he often times cant speak a word of Thai.

And if the man is happy then I just feel sorry for him. To be happy with someone who is after your wallet and clearly doesnt love you is rather pathetic i'd say.

And how do you know she isn't happy? Are you judging things only on the Hollywood version of a passionate love affair?

Let's look at it from a different viewpoint. Do men and women work? Do all men and women love their jobs? Even if they don't love their jobs, would they be upset if they were fired?

They may not like the actual work each day, but they like the situation. They like the paycheck.

While I doubt that too many 20 year old women are in passionate, all-encompassing love with their 65 year old husbands, I dare say that many, if not most, are "happy" with their situation. Otherwise, they would walk.

And how many marriages in the west, where both parties are 65, are truly happy in the Hollywood sense? Or are many, if not most, merely comfortable in the relationship, or even unhappy but not willing to go through the effort and pain of a divorce?

[luckizuchinni]

look, the slave trade is alive and well, and there are more slaves now then ever in any point of time in our history believe it or not.

how do you know that the next girl you pay to sleep with is not a slave, and by doing so you are contributing to her pain and suffering, and funding her masters and abusers.

it's a real possibility and for that reason it should not be supported.

the girl you sleep with is somebody's daughter.

Please show some references for that outlandish claim.

The slave trade still exists, although many of the things outlined in CNN's rash of stories are not in fact slavery. Take last night. They highlighted some horrible things which happen to Africans trying to get to Israel, done by Bedouins. This includes murder and holding for ransom. But it is not slavery. Nor are cam girls in the Philippines or a rash of other jobs labeled a slavery.

In the past, when slavery was legal in most countries, there were far more slaves than now, and all this hyperbole just serves to numb people to the real problems which sill exist.

And as far as your last statement, so what? Your wife is someone's daughter as well.

[StreetCowboy]

well if it pleases you to have no morals just remember that kama could bring such actions on your children.

you may not believe that, but would the even slightest chance that its true about kama make you rethink.

forget the hookers, i will stick to my wife.

Me too.

EDIT: Least said, soonest mended

SC

Edited December 18, 2011 by StreetCowboy

[Ulysses G.]

how then would you describe a girl who has sex for money, with complete strangers.

people who are interested in nothing more then a quick bang.

A pleasant and convenient alternative to the ones that you have to marry.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[mataus101]

I am not catholic, I am Buddhists, Luckily because the pope has a lot to answer for.

I am not taking the moral high ground here, i am not on my high horse, it is what is and you guys refuse to admit it because you engage in it.

ludditeman, my wife is free to leave, we are in a union by choice, don't mix words you know what slavery is, if she was free to date she would not, you may not know girls like that.

What i consider to old and this is just my opinion, when someone is old enough to be your father, people will disagree here again because many are old enough to be the father.

thats why it bugs you guys so much.as for grammer, When I write a book I will worry about that, or have my editor do so.

this is the net, who cares about grammer.lol.

You engage in something long enough it soon becames normal, but deep down you all know it's wrong, otherwise you would not even defend it.

[sbk]

Please note forum etiquette when thinking about hijacking topics with off topic nitpicking

Posts deleted.

[mataus101]

I believe I am probably being misunderstood here.

My original words were aimed at men who are being used being foolish enough to get into that situation.

The reason I chose older men is because they are at a much greater risk, as it's rare but not impossible for a girl much younger to be with them for genuine reasons, please note I said still possible, however most are deluding themselves.

I did say if he is aware that he is being used, and likewise he is using her, fine.

As for prostitution, anyone who says no harm is done is ignorant of the facts of the lifestyle, many people are affected when a girl chooses this.

Back on topic, the girl who wrote this thing in stickman may not have been to Thailand, but she sure is not far off the mark.

You get what you pay for, thats why it's best to enter a relationship where money is not a driving factor, or better yet not a factor at all.

she is correct when she talks about laying down with dogs you will get up with fleas, although she did not use those words.

To many people became desensatised to there surrounding and accept it as the norm, mainly because they enjoy being a part of it.

Edited December 18, 2011 by mataus101

[ludditeman]

I am not catholic, I am Buddhists, Luckily because the pope has a lot to answer for.

I am not taking the moral high ground here, i am not on my high horse, it is what is and you guys refuse to admit it because you engage in it.

ludditeman, my wife is free to leave, we are in a union by choice, don't mix words you know what slavery is, if she was free to date she would not, you may not know girls like that.

What i consider to old and this is just my opinion, when someone is old enough to be your father, people will disagree here again because many are old enough to be the father.

thats why it bugs you guys so much.as for grammer, When I write a book I will worry about that, or have my editor do so.

this is the net, who cares about grammer.lol.

You engage in something long enough it soon becames normal, but deep down you all know it's wrong, otherwise you would not even defend it.

That's a bit strange because while Christianity tends to preach having sex is bad, Buddhism only says excess is bad.

So you have held on to a Christian morality, while claiming to move to Buddhism.

Having sex is normal, you might not have been having sex long enough (for whatever reason) to have got to that stage yet, but many adult men in Thailand have.

Not caring much about Christian morality, I don't see anything wrong with sex between consenting adults, of any age or gender combination.

So how do you feel about sex between two men?

(or between a man and a man dressed up as a woman)

Does age difference matter then?

[vpi78]

I believe I am probably being misunderstood here.

My original words were aimed at men who are being used being foolish enough to get into that situation.

The reason I chose older men is because they are at a much greater risk, as it's rare but not impossible for a girl much younger to be with them for genuine reasons, please note I said still possible, however most are deluding themselves.

I did say if he is aware that he is being used, and likewise he is using her, fine.

As for prostitution, anyone who says no harm is done is ignorant of the facts of the lifestyle, many people are affected when a girl chooses this.

Back on topic, the girl who wrote this thing in stickman may not have been to Thailand, but she sure is not far off the mark.

You get what you pay for, thats why it's best to enter a relationship where money is not a driving factor, or better yet not a factor at all.

she is correct when she talks about laying down with dogs you will get up with fleas, although she did not use those words.

To many people became desensatised to there surrounding and accept it as the norm, mainly because they enjoy being a part of it.

You're making more sense now. I do not agree with your opinions but at least you are better supporting your views now.

BTW, I do not think a woman wrote that "article"' and it has been floating around the Internet in various forms for a few years now. It is not a bad way to generate more traffic to a website which is of course how these bloggers make their nut.

[daoyai]

ok cardholder, if believing that makes you feel good.

i will say again what i believe so we don't forget, bar girls are filthy.

I agree !!! Bargirls are filthy .......... but in a good way.

[luckizuchinni]

I am not taking the moral high ground here, i am not on my high horse, it is what is and you guys refuse to admit it because you engage in it.

Actually, to be accurate, you are taking the high moral ground, and you use the word "morality" in previous posts.

And again, I have taken issue with your damning others not because I "engage" in it. To be frank, I do not partake of professional women. This is not for any moral reason, simple personal preference. (I do, however, do other things of which you probably would disapprove, so I am not claiming to be an angel.)

I just feel that people should be able to do what they want as long as they do not hurt others. That includes prostitution or marrying much younger women.

You don't have to partake to defend someones right to do so. I am not gay, nor have I ever had gay sex, but I will defend the right of anyone to do so. I don't smoke nor drink coffee, and I defend the right of anyone to do so (as long as I am not inhaling the smoke, that is.) I don't enjoy playing cards or gambling, but I see nothing wrong with others doing so (unless the gambling goes beyond entertainment and adversely effects their lives and the lives of their families.

My point is that your broad brushstrokes are unwarranted. I have no problem with bargirls as a job choice. If course, I would have problems with some and some of their customers, depending on otehr factors. BUt not on the fact that they work in adult entertainment. This is even though I don't hire them out myself. If is called "judge not lest ye be judged."

[Mrbiggus]

Is it cause I'm white that I get tarred with the same brush and stereotyped to the extent that I'm a pervert before I even get of the plane.

I'm a decent bloke who has never been with a prostitute and never will. Yet I was scammed by a Thai Lady who also was not a BG.

So this supposedly educated American/Thai lady is coming out with the same stereotyped rubbish as most people who post on the internet.

White men in LOS have not a leg to stand on regarding a level playing field when involved with anything to do with LOS.

[ludditeman]

no ludditeman I have not held on to a christian view, hard to hold onto a practice when you never practiced it.

you should never assume things, I have been buddhists since I was 12.

Morality is taught to children way before age 12, often through fairy tales and other children's stories.

Very few are strong enough to overcome their early indoctrination.

You may claim you are a Buddhist but your posts betray your true morality.

PS

Please don't say 'good-hearted person' as it's 'buffalo speak' (usually picked up from bar girls)

Edited December 18, 2011 by ludditeman

[pxlgirl]

It's all a matter of demand (farungs) and supply (bargirls). It's all driven by self-interests on both sides. There is an ugly side of the story (human trafficking), but normally, it just takes two. Everyone can live the life they chose, but as long as it doesn't harm others. In this case, it does harm the reputation of Thailand as a country, its women and those westerners who do not have the intentions described earlier.

[chonabot]

why go to them anyway, just as easy to pick up a girl at an market, mall or club for free for a night.

Sounds like you have respect issues with women full stop ?

Edited December 18, 2011 by chonabot

[bonobo]

Let's keep this calm and away from the personal flames.

[mataus101]

i totally respect woman, who do things that dont harm others.

i respect all woman who respect themselves, i respect woman totally and commit to one only.

[Johnniey]

It's all a matter of demand (farungs) and supply (bargirls). It's all driven by self-interests on both sides. There is an ugly side of the story (human trafficking), but normally, it just takes two. Everyone can live the life they chose, but as long as it doesn't harm others. In this case, it does harm the reputation of Thailand as a country, its women and those westerners who do not have the intentions described earlier.

(farungs) as you say is a Thai word for white foreigners, not whore-mongers.

Granted, may are sexpats, many of which are in denial, many of which post on the internet or befriend others to justify that it is quite normal to marry a prostitute in this country, hiding the fact that they are the laughing stock of normal faraung and Thai alike.

[pxlgirl]

(farungs) as you say is a Thai word for white foreigners, not whore-mongers.

Thanks for the clarification, I know that the word "farung" is used for western (mainly white) foreigners in general, but I'm not familiar with the vocabulary used for "whore-mongers", is there any thai word for them at all?

[chonabot]

(farungs) as you say is a Thai word for white foreigners, not whore-mongers.

Thanks for the clarification, I know that the word "farung" is used for western (mainly white) foreigners in general, but I'm not familiar with the vocabulary used for "whore-mongers", is there any thai word for them at all?

Yes I would also benefit from an elucidite definition of that classification/nomenclature - preferably in Thai script

:jap: