Ministers Targeted Over Press Freedom: Thailand

[webfact]

Ministers targeted over press freedom

The Nation

The Democrats are accusing Finance Minister Thirachai Phuvanatnara-nubala and PM's Office Minister Kritsana Seehalak of meddling in the freedom of press.

In addition, PM Yingluck Shinawatra and Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul have been put on the shortlist for impeachment should they refuse to cancel former PM Thaksin Shinawatra's passport within a week.

In a motion sponsored by 145 Democrats and filed yesterday, Thirachai and Kritsana are accused of violating constitutional provisions on the freedom of the press by interfering with board appointments for MCOT, a listed media outlet in which the Finance Ministry holds a majority stake.

Kritsana, in her capacity as minister in charge of state-run media, and Thirachai, who oversees his ministry's equity stakes, made concerted efforts to push out the board, the motion said, adding that MCOT board chairman Surapon Nitikraipot had stepped down under suspicious circumstances.

Upon acknowledging the impeachment motion, Senate Speaker Teeradej Meepien said he would verify the motion by January 28 before forwarding it to the National Anti-Corruption Commission for an inquiry. Should the NACC find cause to suspect foul play, the Senate will then convene an impeachment trial.

Meanwhile, Democrat MP Wiratana Kalayasiri said he wanted Yingluck and Surapong to recall Thaksin's passport within a week, otherwise they would have to face the consequences.

He added that Yingluck could not turn a blind eye to the legal problems faced by Thaksin.

-- The Nation 2011-12-31

[Bakseedaa]

If only it were so easy....!

[Pib]

I think all Thai opposition parties do is file or threaten to file impreachment motions whether the motions have any validity or not.

Guess it's a good way to keep the opposition parties in the public view since the parties in power get most of the press time. Plus, the opposition parties have no real power other than what the get from public support....being out of power sucks.

[DoctorG]

If I get totally bored one day I might consider trying to work out how the thai parliamentry process actually works.

Nah, never going to be that bored.

[hellodolly]

If I get totally bored one day I might consider trying to work out how the thai parliamentry process actually works.

Nah, never going to be that bored.

I think if you would say dosen't work you would be closer to the facts. What a Joke.

I was willing to give Yingluck a chance to be a responsible PM. She never even tried.

Then I was hoping the Democrats would function as a opposition party and try to improve conditions in Thailand.

Wrong again.

[hellodolly]

If I get totally bored one day I might consider trying to work out how the thai parliamentry process actually works.

Nah, never going to be that bored.

Did you mean dosen't work

I was hopeful that Yingluck would at least try to act as a responsible PM.

My mistake

I was hopeful that the Democrats would try to act as opposition and work toward improving things in Thailand.

Wrong again.

[geriatrickid]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history.”

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

[geriatrickid]

If I get totally bored one day I might consider trying to work out how the thai parliamentry process actually works.

Nah, never going to be that bored.

I think if you would say dosen't work you would be closer to the facts. What a Joke.

I was willing to give Yingluck a chance to be a responsible PM. She never even tried.

Then I was hoping the Democrats would function as a opposition party and try to improve conditions in Thailand.

Wrong again.

How does someone with no education or expertise in this area pass judgement as to whether or not the parliamentary system works? Who are you to judge? If you do not understand the Thai language and do not follow the debates and process how would you know what was happening.

There are some skilled parliamentarians in the PTP and Democrat parties, and yet you dismiss them. Good show.

[khunken]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history.”

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

I'm afraid your total bias is showing when the opposition are only doing their job. If you want to mention real curtailment of freedom of the media you should go back to the Thaksin regime where even journalists were prosecuted for reporting on what that crowd didn't like. All Thai governments seek to appoint their cronies to QUANGOs but this doesn't make it right. Also it is even worse when nepotism creeps in with far too many Shinawatra extended family members given jobs far beyond their level of competence.

[anterian]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history.”

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

I'm afraid your total bias is showing when the opposition are only doing their job. If you want to mention real curtailment of freedom of the media you should go back to the Thaksin regime where even journalists were prosecuted for reporting on what that crowd didn't like. All Thai governments seek to appoint their cronies to QUANGOs but this doesn't make it right. Also it is even worse when nepotism creeps in with far too many Shinawatra extended family members given jobs far beyond their level of competence.

I think your total bias is also showing, why drag

Thaksin into this discussion?

[OzMick]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history.”

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

I'm afraid your total bias is showing when the opposition are only doing their job. If you want to mention real curtailment of freedom of the media you should go back to the Thaksin regime where even journalists were prosecuted for reporting on what that crowd didn't like. All Thai governments seek to appoint their cronies to QUANGOs but this doesn't make it right. Also it is even worse when nepotism creeps in with far too many Shinawatra extended family members given jobs far beyond their level of competence.

I think your total bias is also showing, why drag

Thaksin into this discussion?

Right! it's not like Thaksin has any influence in this administration with his sister (my clone) as PM, and a party policy of Thaksin thinks, PTP acts (stinks would have rhymed better), and a BIL appointed CoP. Just ignore the 2000lb gorilla in the corner.

[DP25]

Just take a look at the weekly rabid articles pumped out by the red propaganda press during Abhisit's time as PM. They are archived over at 2bangkok if your memory of them is faulty. No way in hell would those kind of articles would have been allowed under the Thaksin regime, to say otherwise is ignorant or deliberately deceitful. They would have been banned, prosecuted, or sued in to oblivion. Much of what was published under Abhisit would have been illegal even in the west, in most countries you can not publish threats towards the judiciary before a court verdict and expect to get away with either. Red shirt publications constantly made threats of violence against various individuals, courts, and the state in general and then whined about press freedom when called on it. And of course once in power factions of the red shirts began making threats of violence against journalists who didn't fall in line

[patjem]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history.”

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

The important part of the conditions was when "a threat to National Security": the reds at Ratchaprasong, M79's being lobbed around Bangkok, red realpolitik being spoonfed to village folk, Arisman calling for the burning of Bangkok, HIV-infected blood being poured at the country's leader's front gates: all are risks to National security in my eyes... Sorry if you can't see that.

[TAWP]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms

By a few biased people, yes. But to claim they are 'the most blatant and extremist curtailers[sic] of press freedoms' and by that clearly ignore others that was before is to be highly selective.

Anyway, not that it matters, now PTP is in power and now all will be good. 112 is no more and we will not see any prosecutions over LM for minor posts. Right?

[SomTumTiger]

No need to respond to GK. Every word of every post he writes is dripping with Pro Thaksin rhetoric. Just let him go.

[phiphidon]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms

By a few biased people, yes. But to claim they are 'the most blatant and extremist curtailers[sic] of press freedoms' and by that clearly ignore others that was before is to be highly selective.

Anyway, not that it matters, now PTP is in power and now all will be good. 112 is no more and we will not see any prosecutions over LM for minor posts. Right?

Article 112 is still on the books but have you seen any prosecutions over LM for minor posts under the PTP governance, truly, have you?

[whybother]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms

By a few biased people, yes. But to claim they are 'the most blatant and extremist curtailers[sic] of press freedoms' and by that clearly ignore others that was before is to be highly selective.

Anyway, not that it matters, now PTP is in power and now all will be good. 112 is no more and we will not see any prosecutions over LM for minor posts. Right?

Article 112 is still on the books but have you seen any prosecutions over LM for minor posts under the PTP governance, truly, have you?

Do you mean that Chalerm is spending 400 million baht on doing nothing?

What minor prosecutions did you see under the Democrat government? I don't agree with 112, but the 2 publicised prosecutions (SMS and translation of the book) weren't minor. What else was there?

Edited January 1, 2012 by whybother

[sparebox2]

Press freedom must be limited because sometruth are better not to be disclosed to the general public.This is for the common good. White lies are OK too. Just like the government PR work in North Koea, Cuba and Thailand.

Some truth has better left unknown

Some dreams will never die

Two hearts will be facing the truth

Beating to survive

A secret to keep

[geriatrickid]

No need to respond to GK. Every word of every post he writes is dripping with Pro Thaksin rhetoric. Just let him go.

This is not about Thaksin. it is about Abhisit and his party making an as yet unsubstantiated allegation. The Abhisit government closed down more media outlets than any other government at the time. The Abhisit government also wielded the LM law whenever it could. Hence, the Abhisit group should not be giving lectures on freedom of the press.

One thing is consistent with some people in this forum; When in doubt and unable to provide a sentient argument, blame Thaksin.

[geriatrickid]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. "This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history."

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

The important part of the conditions was when "a threat to National Security": the reds at Ratchaprasong, M79's being lobbed around Bangkok, red realpolitik being spoonfed to village folk, Arisman calling for the burning of Bangkok, HIV-infected blood being poured at the country's leader's front gates: all are risks to National security in my eyes... Sorry if you can't see that.

The AAbhisit regime was quick to label any perceived political oppoennts as "national threats". there was no due process, no debate, and no oversight of the labeling.

As an aside, I was aware of the symbolic pouring of the pigs blood, but please tell me where I can learn of this HIV infected blood? Was a special collection taken from the Pattaya and bangkok entertainment sector employees and their clientele?

[Buchholz]

I was aware of the symbolic pouring of the pigs blood, but please tell me where I can learn of this HIV infected blood? Was a special collection taken from the Pattaya and bangkok entertainment sector employees and their clientele?

although she's a little bit heavy, I wouldn't call this Red Shirt a pig.

http://newley.com/20...-blood-protest/

Also...

BBC - March 16, 2010

Thailand's red-shirt demonstrators have splashed blood under the gates of Government House in a protest against a leadership they say is illegitimate. Earlier the protesters lined up to donate their blood, as the anti-government rallies entered a third day.

In Bangkok, red-shirt leader Veera Musikapong was the first to donate blood for the protest. "This blood is a sacrificial offering. To show our love for the nation, to show our sincerity," he said.

"We have three tents for blood donations. All people who conduct the blood drawing will be doctors, nurses or other qualified people who came here voluntarily," said senior red shirt leader, Dr Weng Tojilakarn, who normally runs his own medical practice.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8569483.stm

=================================================================

Xinhua - March 16, 2010

The anti-government red-shirted protestors Tuesday morning began to donate blood, which will be scattered around the Government House later the day in a bid to pressure the government to bent to the movement's demand. The TV channel reported that the blood donation process kicked off as the red-shirted people were registering to volunteer to give 10 cc blood each.

Nattawut Saikua, one of the red-shirts leaders, announced Monday afternoon that the blood will be taken from 100,000 protesters, including the red-shirts leaders, and will be scattered around the Government House as a measure to step up pressure on the government during their mass rally.

http://www.china.org...nt_19617182.htm

As for HIV...

BMA confirms some redshirt blood had HIV, hepatatis viruses

http://www.nationmul...s-30126234.html

.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms

By a few biased people, yes. But to claim they are 'the most blatant and extremist curtailers[sic] of press freedoms' and by that clearly ignore others that was before is to be highly selective.

Anyway, not that it matters, now PTP is in power and now all will be good. 112 is no more and we will not see any prosecutions over LM for minor posts. Right?

Article 112 is still on the books but have you seen any prosecutions over LM for minor posts under the PTP governance, truly, have you?

Do you mean that Chalerm is spending 400 million baht on doing nothing?

What minor prosecutions did you see under the Democrat government? I don't agree with 112, but the 2 publicised prosecutions (SMS and translation of the book) weren't minor. What else was there?

Every single day, the government is spending almost Bt1.5 million to block undesirable websites and close down web content.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Cyber-surveillance-vulnerable-to-abuse-30172137.html

[hellodolly]

If I get totally bored one day I might consider trying to work out how the thai parliamentry process actually works.

Nah, never going to be that bored.

I think if you would say dosen't work you would be closer to the facts. What a Joke.

I was willing to give Yingluck a chance to be a responsible PM. She never even tried.

Then I was hoping the Democrats would function as a opposition party and try to improve conditions in Thailand.

Wrong again.

How does someone with no education or expertise in this area pass judgement as to whether or not the parliamentary system works? Who are you to judge? If you do not understand the Thai language and do not follow the debates and process how would you know what was happening.

There are some skilled parliamentarians in the PTP and Democrat parties, and yet you dismiss them. Good show.

Piece of cake just look at the results and pay attention to what is happening. How do you know about my level of understanding?

As usual you ramble on about some thing you know nothing about.

[hellodolly]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history.”

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

Well yes they did restrict certain things from being said.

What you conveniently forget is it was lies and hate mongering. You red shirts are all the same accuse every one else of being wrong and deny any culpability for your part.

[phiphidon]

Every single day, the government is spending almost Bt1.5 million to block undesirable websites and close down web content.

http://www.nationmul...e-30172137.html

So what are you saying Buchholz, you don't believe that the PTP should not be acting on closing down sites offensive to the Monarchy?

This money is not being spent on closing down websites belonging to the opposition. Article 112 is not being used by the PTP as a political tool.

When questioned as to whether she wished to change the Article 112 Yingluck replied;

”No, for me, I don’t have any idea to change the 112. I would not reform it, because it is not my policy and also this is an issue which is quite sensitive so we have to leave it to the people who have expertise to comment on that. I don’t want to see the misuse of this law regarding his majesty.”

“If you look at the numbers of lèse majesté cases, from 1990 to 2005, there were an average of five or six cases going into the lower Court per year. After that, there was… between 2006 and 2009 – those four years – there were 397 cases that went into the lower Court,” Professor Streckfuss explained. “About a 1,500% increase, depending on how you do the math.”.........................

...................Both Prof. Streckfuss and Dr. Nirand of Thailand’s National Human Rights Commission spoke to a growing perception that lèse majesté has since developed as a means to arbitrarily remove, or discourage, political expression that differs from official narrative.

“It has become the political tool for those who hold power in the society to get rid of political dissidents,” Dr. Nirand argued. “Superficially, (article 112) may look like it’s for protecting the monarchy,” he stated. “But if you look into details… It has caused many human rights violations.”

http://asiancorrespo...the-wind-blows/

If the PTP were to try and ammend Article 112 they would be damned by the opposition for being anti-monarchists.

The one group that has proposed change to Article 112, The Nitirat Group, have been damned by the democrats, their deputy spokesman even going as far to say that the members of the group should have their citizenship taken away from them - no old school thinking there then.

As far as the LI "tool" is concerned Chalerm had this to say;

On 12 Dec, before a meeting of his recently appointed committee to suppress inappropriate internet content at the Royal Thai Police, Chalerm said that previous governments had tried to deal with inappropriate content but had failed. Some people claimed that because some websites were located abroad, it was difficult to take legal action against them, but for websites in the country they could not make any arrest. So they just lied. Websites abroad cannot be banned, but can be blocked, he said.

He said that an expert, a Deputy Commander of the police Technology Crime Suppression Division, had told him that there was technology which can ‘cut the signal’ of websites from abroad and requires a budget of 400 million baht. So he had told the Prime Minister’s Secretary to have the Ministry of Information and Communication Technology prepare the budget and procurement......................

.......................When reporters raised the point that some anti-monarchy groups were associated with red shirts, Chalerm said that whoever broke the law must be arrested, no matter what colour.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/2947

edit source added Edited January 2, 2012 by phiphidon

[scorecard]

How odd that the Democrats are claiming an infringement of freedom of the press, over an as yet unsubstantiated allegation regarding the state controlled MCOT. The Democrats when they were in power were considered to be the most blatant and extremist of curtailers of press freedoms ;

Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “This(Democrat) government came into office saying it was committed to protecting rights, but it has become the most prolific censor in recent Thai history.”

A reputable news source in Bangkok (which I am not allowed to mention) on July 30, 2010 described the Democrat government as ready to pounce on anybody it considered to be a threat to national security and lambasted the Abihist Democrats as restricting basic freedom of speech.

Under the Democrats, in 2011 the non aligned, politically neutral Freedom House, a leading US human rights organisation revised Thailand's press freedom status from "partly free" to "not free".

As such, I don't think anyone that has any semblance of fairness will take the Democrats seriously on this issue. The oversight of MCOT is to be expected, particularly since the previous board directors were Democrat or military junta appointees. It is not uncommon for the governments that fund public broadcasters either directly or indirectly to oversee their expenditures. Similar allegations have been raised about the CBC and BBC boards in Canada and the UK.

Well yes they did restrict certain things from being said.

What you conveniently forget is it was lies and hate mongering. You red shirts are all the same accuse every one else of being wrong and deny any culpability for your part.

Again g'kid, just your opinion (which you are entitled to), but written so that it looks like fact.

Naughty g'kid.

Edited January 2, 2012 by scorecard