Actually, Is There A National Park Regulation Or Not?

[khun_j]

Sorry, I´m sure this has been chewed over again and again - but I´d still really like to have some facts (and not start a 245th discussion .

As work-permit holder foreigners permanently living in LOS - are we allowed to "raka khon Thai" or is it just goodwill? If latter, then it´s ok - but if otherwise, it´s not very nice having these discussions, in spite of Thai language skills.

Thanks,

j.

[beano2274]

It is at the discretion of the person taking your money as far as I have seen, I always flash my driving license at them, and my wife does the talking.

[lonewolf99]

Apartheid was a political process that gave priority to people of European origin. Segregation of coloureds in America was a way of life for a hundred years in the U.S.A.

If any Government in Europe or North America charged Asians or Africans 10 times more there would an outcry and debates at the U.N.

council. But for some bizzare reason Thailand gets away with it then thinks it can attract more Tourists.

I was recently down South in Ao Nang where there is a "National Park" that has fossils snails on a beach. It is 20 Baht for locals to walk onto the beach and 200 for foreigners. And Clearly states that on a wooden notice board. I voted with my feet and walked the other way. Strangely so did all the South East Asian Tourist who had turned up. Malays and Indians they were not prepared to pay these prices. Thais did not pay either as the vast majority of them could care less about fossil snails let alone walk 1.5 Km along a hot sandy beach to see them. So for over an hour that I was there no one ventured near the Kiosk to pay or even contemplate looking at fossil snails.

It is the same for Water falls. I know of several "water falls" south of Chanta buri that are fake. I reported this before on Thai Visa. I walked through the jungle paths up the hill side where the 6" blue plastic pipe takes the water up to the top of a steep cliff from a large holding tank at the entrance to the park. I ignored old broken rusty barbed wire fences and signs to locate the point where the water was fed into a dry river bed.

80 feet below the steep cliff with signs saying do not climb, hundreds of tourists frollicked in a cool clear "shower".

What I cannot understand is that there will be ex-pats coming onto Thai Visa and now say it is perfectly OK for this double standard ??? Because Thai people are "poor" and foreigners are "rich". <deleted> I say, I live in Jomtien and you only have to look at the cars on the roads these days driven by Thais to realise there is big money about. I have seen numerous large Mercs, Hummers, a brand new Bentley, Ferraris and a Lamborghini in the last few weeks. All driven by locals. Houses are are also an indicator to the possible wealth of people.

Thailand is and always will be a land of haves and have nots. These days there are more and more haves that can easlily afford to pay to see fake waterfalls.

But TIT, nothing will change. No matter how much we whinge and type on T.V.

Of course, we could made a video of fake water falls and show the double pricing on You Tube globally so the Thais would deal with it like they dealt with Jet Ski scams...i.e. just keep doing it.

But, would I live any where else ? no.

[samran]

To the OP - interesting question, and I've not seen any rule - doesn't mean that there isn't. I've worked for the Thai government for a while, and as with most things government there is always a rule for something, in this case probably some sort of ministerial or cabinet resolution passed back in the day - otherwise there would simply not be the signs that you see.

Apartheid was a political process that gave priority to people of European origin. Segregation of coloureds in America was a way of life for a hundred years in the U.S.A.

If any Government in Europe or North America charged Asians or Africans 10 times more there would an outcry and debates at the U.N.

council. But for some bizzare reason Thailand gets away with it then thinks it can attract more Tourists.

You'd have a point there lonewolf, except for the fact that every country does, and will always, place their citizens before all others and give them all sorts of prioritisation and benefits not available to foreigners, whether it be the right to own land, certain companies, voting, access to cheap medical care or education (while foreigners pay a the full price).

The true test of discrimination is whether it is done on the basis of race, creed, culture, colour or religion (there are probably a few more there which I've missed out on. If there was any of these then you'd be in Apartheid territory.

But you can't compare access to Thai government sites to this, as the pricing to access is only done on the basis of nationality. In my family's case, we all have Thai passports bar my wife. I at best look Spanish and my kids have blond hair, blue eyes and are white as the Irish but have Thai passports. We always have paid the Thai price for things, and always will - as is their right.

Do I think the rule is a good one? Not necessarily, but until I have the Thai government discriminate against me or my kids based on their skin colour or religion (think Malaysia and the bumiputra policy), then I don't think it is a massive stretch to put Thailand in the same boat as Apartheid era South Africa.

[samran]

Just found this link:

http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/e-book/new_entrance_fee.pdf

a notice from about 5 years ago outlining the price. At first glance there isn't a line in their which given an exemption for work permit holders, but am still searching...

[Tropicalevo]

Just found this link:

http://www.dnp.go.th...ntrance_fee.pdf

a notice from about 5 years ago outlining the price. At first glance there isn't a line in their which given an exemption for work permit holders, but am still searching...

but.....

as the work permit has to stay at our place of work, how do we convince the cash collector that we are genuine?

As someone said before - I too show my driving licence.

Now, if you do not drive....???

[khun_j]

Thanks for your answers - and yes, we did have the original Thai driver´s licenses with us as well...no help, just a veryyyy arrogant response at Morakot (Emerald Pool) yesterday. We´ll then leave Shell Cemetary out this time...

A shame how the mood can be spoiled in this lovely country

j.

[lonewolf99]

Dear SAMRAN,

I know I was using the extreme end of the racial spectrum.

I personally qualify to have an Asian passport (not Thai) but since I am fair skinned and have blue eyes I think I would probably be accused of stealing it first...!!! Then met with disbelief since it is from one of the, lets say darker skinned ethnic group countries.

I do wonder how some "jobsworth" in a ticket kiosk at one of the Thai attractions would behave when a light skinned 50/50 Thai national turned up and tried to pay "local prices" without producing any form of I.D. first ?

How are Thai nationals going to look when a 50/50 Thai meets another 50/50 and has children and the darker colour is diluted even more.

So without I.D. cards, passports etc., they will fall into the category I am in and no one will believe there actual nationality based purely on skin colour.

It is only human nature. No one would believe a blond haired white man if he said he was Nigerian. But it is perfectly possible if he was born of European parents working there at the time.

The less travelled of the world might be surprised to know the largest community of ethnic Japanese outside of Japan live in Brazil.

But I digress. The fact of the matter is if you live in Europe or America and you want to go into a national museum, park, building or even Disney World. Every one pays the same price.

[impulse]

The fact of the matter is if you live in Europe or America and you want to go into a national museum, park, building or even Disney World. Every one pays the same price.

Just a little light aside. If you have a driver's license from Southern California, you can get significant discounts on season tickets at Disneyland. At least that's the way it was when I lived there in the late '90's.

If you are old enough, you get a reduced price at US National Parks and many museums.

If you have a student ID, you get discounts at tons of venues in the USA.

Discrimination? Yes. Wrong? It depends on your cultural background and what side of the benefit you're on.

It doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand, but there are also some legitimate business reasons for pricing one "group" different than others. What does it cost to market to them? Are there additional costs for providing bilingual services? What is the likelihood of repeat business from them? Do they need special facilities that you wouldn't have to pay for if they didn't come? (How many times do you think they'll go back to the buffet?)

Edited January 2, 2012 by impulse

[samran]

I do wonder how some "jobsworth" in a ticket kiosk at one of the Thai attractions would behave when a light skinned 50/50 Thai national turned up and tried to pay "local prices" without producing any form of I.D. first ?

How are Thai nationals going to look when a 50/50 Thai meets another 50/50 and has children and the darker colour is diluted even more.

So without I.D. cards, passports etc., they will fall into the category I am in and no one will believe there actual nationality based purely on skin colour.

Well wonder no longer.

It usually works like this - based on 20 odd years of doing it myself and 6 with children and 8 with my wife. I turn up to the national park or museum, temple etc. I get to the entrance and ask in Thai "Two adult and a one child ticket please". He jobsworth answers 100 baht (40+40+20 all Thai prices), the child ticket being for my Thai national daughter, the one in the middle pictured below.

I and my daughter have never been questioned. I think I was asked if my wife lived in Thailand to which I responded, well, yes, she is my wife.

Profuse apologies and off we go. I've never once been asked for ID to prove my bonafides, although my ID is in my pocket at all times.

[samran]

I do wonder how some "jobsworth" in a ticket kiosk at one of the Thai attractions would behave when a light skinned 50/50 Thai national turned up and tried to pay "local prices" without producing any form of I.D. first ?

How are Thai nationals going to look when a 50/50 Thai meets another 50/50 and has children and the darker colour is diluted even more.

So without I.D. cards, passports etc., they will fall into the category I am in and no one will believe there actual nationality based purely on skin colour.

Well wonder no longer.

It usually works like this - based on 20 odd years of doing it myself and 6 with children and 8 with my wife. I turn up to the national park or museum, temple etc. I get to the entrance and ask in Thai "Two adult and a one child ticket please". He jobsworth answers 100 baht (40+40+20 all Thai prices), the child ticket being for my Thai national daughter, the one in the middle pictured below.

I and my daughter have never been questioned. I think I was asked if my wife lived in Thailand to which I responded, well, yes, she is my wife.

Profuse apologies and off we go. I've never once been asked for ID to prove my bonafides, although my ID is in my pocket at all times.

[lonewolf99]

Thanks Samran,

Nice photo. Cute kids. They look like a basket full of fun / trouble ?

Just to drag this issue out more.... the response about Students / State Residents / OAP discounts in America and Europe...well none of this happens in Thailand it is just local and foreigner. Cut and dried. In the U.K if you are over 60 you get a free bus pass. If you were a Thai national with valid I.D. (Passport) in the U.K to show you were over 60 you get on the bus for....guess what ? FREE...

Some things here will never change but if the ethnic background gets more dilluted (with the efforts made by Samran ) there is always a glimmer of hope....

[impulse]

"(Fishing) License fees in Alberta are based on where an angler resides. Anglers are classified as either Residents or Non-residents. A Resident is a person whose primary residence is in Canada, and is a Canadian citizen, a Landed Immigrant, or has lived in Canada for the immediately preceding 12 months. A Non-resident is a person who does not reside in Canada."

Fee for resident: $25.66

Fee for foreigner: $70.90

Source: http://www.thebowriv...ing_license.htm

Go to a state park in Wyoming and you'll pay a different price with a Wyoming driver's license. Buy a hunting or fishing license in just about any state and they'll "discriminate" based on where you're from.

Check out college tuition at just about any state owned school in the USA and compare the in-state tuition with out-of-state tuition and you'll see real "discrimination"- based solely on where you're from.

You can complain all you want that they don't do things here like "back home". They don't. They do it the way they want to do it. Just like Alberta in Canada (and pretty much all the other provinces and all 50 United States) do it the way they want to do it.

They all discriminate, they just choose different discrimination criteria based on their culture and their beliefs. Is any of it fair? Nobody really gives a rat what I think and that's the way it ought to be...

To contend that any one is more or less fair than the other sounds like racism elitism to me. ("Racism" was a little too strong)

Edited January 2, 2012 by impulse

[Jingthing]

You'd have a point there lonewolf, except for the fact that every country does, and will always, place their citizens before all others and give them all sorts of prioritisation and benefits not available to foreigners, whether it be the right to own land, certain companies, voting, access to cheap medical care or education (while foreigners pay a the full price).

Just to inform you on all of those points for "every" country, you are not correct.

[ludditeman]

I always have my Thai driving licence, nobody has ever tried to charge me the foreigner price.

I often suspect those kiosk operators with a 'jobsworth' mentality are too stupid to tell the difference between an ID card and a driving licence.

Or alternatively, I have only ever encountered nice Thai kiosk staff.

[samran]

You'd have a point there lonewolf, except for the fact that every country does, and will always, place their citizens before all others and give them all sorts of prioritisation and benefits not available to foreigners, whether it be the right to own land, certain companies, voting, access to cheap medical care or education (while foreigners pay a the full price).

Just to inform you on all of those points for "every" country, you are not correct.

Every country prioritises it's own citizens. How this is done, well that differs.

[Jingthing]

In the west, it isn't part of the culture of the general public to cheat and overcharge non-citizens. Yes, it is that way in Thailand and don't even try to deny it.

[samran]

In the west, it isn't part of the culture of the general public to cheat and overcharge non-citizens. Yes, it is that way in Thailand and don't even try to deny it.

Two things, we are talking about government policy at national parks.

You are talking about a massive generalisation which has no basis in fact, only your sweeping statement for which you provide no evidence.

Ed.. And what if I 'deny' your statement, does this make me a 'Thailand aplogist' (god forbid of wanting to be tarred with that brush) or am I just calling out your statement for the steaming heap of poo that it is....??

Edited January 2, 2012 by samran

[Jingthing]

...

You are talking about a massive generalisation which has no basis in fact, only your sweeping statement for which you provide no evidence.

...

Yes, it is a generalization. I think it could be proven with an academic scientific study but who would want to pay for that? The tourism authority perhaps? Obviously, these things are RELATIVE and we do know about public opinion surveys over the years that modern Thai people have a very different attitude about the acceptability of CORRUPTION than western populations. I see these things as related.

Poo, you say? That's a smelly, real thing too in the world.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Jingthing

[samran]

...

You are talking about a massive generalisation which has no basis in fact, only your sweeping statement for which you provide no evidence.

...

Yes, it is a generalization. I think it could be proven with an academic scientific study but who would want to pay for that? The tourism authority perhaps? Obviously, these things are RELATIVE and we do know about public opinion surveys over the years that modern Thai people have a very different attitude about the acceptability of CORRUPTION than western populations. I see these things as related.

Poo, you say? That's a smelly, real thing too in the world.

Are, subtly changing the topic I see. Sure though, while you are putting together your 'study', let's confirm the obvious 'fact' that all Americans are fat and stupid. The ones who move to Thailand especially.

And a I guess you are right about the corruption. Western attitudes allow corruption to be a lot better hidden. Again, your survey should prove that Americans are best at this.

Who'd pay for it? Dunno, why don't you run a poll and see?

[MRToMRT]

To get back to the OPs question - Thai price if you show a residents permit OR an official Thai ID card, otherwise full Farang price. Some parks have internal policies to allow "local farangs" (i.e. who live here but don't have a residents card) the local price. These are unofficial rates done at a local level and change depending on who is in charge. As there was a big movement of park chiefs in December they could all change again depending on the new chiefs view.

[keestha]

Speaking Thai, and having a Thai drivers licence and also a work permit I take with me just in case, I always got in at the Thai price, with just one exception: a very small national park in Trang, where I ran into a brick wall arguing with the lady issuing the entry tickets.