Jingthing Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Which one is the he and which one is the she? Are they called Mr. and Mrs.? Who actually cares apart from role obsessed breeders? Let's not be disingenuous. Many gays from more traditional cultures like Thailand and the Philippines are very much into parroting heterosexual role models.In this couple it is fair to say that Khun Chumwit winner of the Miss Krabi Fairies 2011 title for feminine beauty is playing a womanly role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 ???? This is news because _____ Good question. Human interest? Novelty item? Slow news day? an estimated 20% of married couples now meet online (http://wiki.answers....on_the_internet) and we know there are a lot of homosexuals (no reliable percentage) ... It would seem this article is nothing but bait to start an argument for and against gay rights, either that or as you say an incredibly slow news day and we can expect to see a headline tomorrow saying a motorbike taxi driver was seen not wearing a helmet. You would have to take that survey with a grain of salt. Done by eHarmony, a dating agency no doubt. It was the first link when I searched Google but would guess it is not that far off in today's times of young people combined with all the dating sites. Meeting somebody through Facebook now a days is like meeting somebody through a friend back in the day or meeting at a social event/group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Which one is the he and which one is the she? Are they called Mr. and Mrs.? Who actually cares apart from role obsessed breeders? Let's not be disingenuous. Many gays from more traditional cultures like Thailand and the Philippines are very much into parroting heterosexual role models. And that's their choice isn't it? Or do you expect everyone to conform to your view of the homosexual realm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Which one is the he and which one is the she? Are they called Mr. and Mrs.? Who actually cares apart from role obsessed breeders? Let's not be disingenuous. Many gays from more traditional cultures like Thailand and the Philippines are very much into parroting heterosexual role models. And that's their choice isn't it? Or do you expect everyone to conform to your view of the homosexual realm? I totally agree it is their choice. Did I say differently? But it is you who rather obnoxiously asserted that only the b-der word (which is an anti-heterosexual slur and you know it) care about roles. These are two homosexuals in the news story who also care. Edited January 8, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Whenever I hear the disease excuse, I am reminded of the fact that in the US and I reckon other Anglo countries not so long ago, masturbation was labeled the main cause of mental illness. It is funny. Now. The leading cause of insanity among the male patients was masturbation, according to the annual report of 1876. People were very ignorant back then. At least now we know masturbation doesn't lead to insanity and simply can cause blindness if done excessively and of course hairy palms but that was even known back in the 1800s.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 These are two homosexuals who've probably had the roles that thy're expected to play forced upon them by the press. Jeez - they're happy - they think they're married - their relatives and friends think they'r married. Can't you just be happy for them rather than making a major song and dance about the dubious use of a word in a language that's not theirs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yes, and so many people are very ignorant now about sexuality issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Whenever I hear the disease excuse, I am reminded of the fact that in the US and I reckon other Anglo countries not so long ago, masturbation was labeled the main cause of mental illness. It is funny. Now. The leading cause of insanity among the male patients was masturbation, according to the annual report of 1876. People were very ignorant back then. At least now we know masturbation doesn't lead to insanity and simply can cause blindness if done excessively and of course hairy palms but that was even known back in the 1800s.. Can you pass me the razor please. My sight's not as good as it used to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Which one is the he and which one is the she? Are they called Mr. and Mrs.? Who actually cares apart from role obsessed breeders? Jinda said her family sought no money or assets from the "groom" - as she described Thongchai; the families speak of Chumwit as the "bride" - beyond the gold-and-diamond wedding ring, because love and understanding were more important than money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) These are two homosexuals who've probably had the roles that thy're expected to play forced upon them by the press. Jeez - they're happy - they think they're married - their relatives and friends think they'r married. Can't you just be happy for them rather than making a major song and dance about the dubious use of a word in a language that's not theirs? Actually, I don't really care about them personally. Just strangers to me. I hope they are happy in an abstract way like all of the mass of humanity of any nationality or sexuality. No more, no less, than any stranger. I have already posted that I have no problem with people saying they're married even when not married. Not even sure what you are on about really. Edited January 8, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Which one is the he and which one is the she? Are they called Mr. and Mrs.? Who actually cares apart from role obsessed breeders? Jinda said her family sought no money or assets from the "groom" - as she described Thongchai; the families speak of Chumwit as the "bride" - beyond the gold-and-diamond wedding ring, because love and understanding were more important than money. Agreed, but another poster thinks the press made this all up. But as they are strangers to everyone posting, that's all we have to go on, the one news story, isn't it? Edited January 9, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softgeorge Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Which one is the he and which one is the she? Are they called Mr. and Mrs.? Read the story and all will become clear, very short story so it will be painless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Which one is the he and which one is the she? Are they called Mr. and Mrs.? Who actually cares apart from role obsessed breeders? Jinda said her family sought no money or assets from the "groom" - as she described Thongchai; the families speak of Chumwit as the "bride" - beyond the gold-and-diamond wedding ring, because love and understanding were more important than money. Agreed, but another poster think the press made this all up. But as they are strangers to everyone posting, that's all we have to go on, the one news story, isn't it? I certainly don't think it is a fabricated story but something is missing from the story such as, why is it news worthy? Did somebody from the family call the press to exploit the marriage? Was the reporter friends with the family? I find it odd the story talks about them being married but fails to mention it legally cannot be a real marriage in Thailand. The Nation put this news story in "National News" and when I did a quick Google search of the author, this is the only story I saw from her. Makes me wonder if it was simply a friend who wrote this up and sent it to The Nation. Edit: It also casually mentions one of them was in the Navy when they started dating (relevance?). I thought gays cannot serve in the military in Thailand? If I am not wrong on this, then is this some subtle dig at the military? Again, just seems like an odd story as people meet on Facebook all the time now a days and gays have marriage ceremonies all the time now a days. Why is this story different? Edited January 9, 2012 by Nisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Gay men most certainly CAN serve in the military of Thailand! Being gay also doesn't get you out of the draft here. There have been some issues over the years with ladyboys. It's complicated, but many do serve depending on their specific case. Ladyboys are not the same thing as gay men. I am not sure if the Fairie contest winner in this news story is self identified as a ladyboy or not. Normally, that would be his private business, but they clearly were happy with the publicity, so they are out there, literally. Anyway, the story has sparked discussion here, so maybe the editors were right that this story was a newsworthy human interest story. Edited January 9, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BookMan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) no doubt. It was the first link when I searched Google but would guess it is not that far off in today's times of young people combined with all the dating sites. Meeting somebody through Facebook now a days is like meeting somebody through a friend back in the day or meeting at a social event/group. That's true. It has become a normal way to meet people. I've met many friends myself online..and when I think about it, my last couple of GFs in Thailand and Australia. . Edited January 9, 2012 by BookMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I miss the good old days when gay men met their husbands at bathhouses and backrooms! Kids today, they don't know how to live. Facebook, Schmacebook ... (We didn't know from friending, but boy oh boy we knew bending.) When I was young, we walked fifty miles in deep snow to get to Ramrods, and we liked it! Now just turn on your smart phoney thingie ... twitter your tatter, it's too dam_n easy. Grumpity-grump. Edited January 9, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Gay men most certainly CAN serve in the military of Thailand! I guess (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service#Thailand) they changed this in 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Gay men most certainly CAN serve in the military of Thailand! I guess (according to http://en.wikipedia....ervice#Thailand) they changed this in 2005. That is a VERY misleading assumption because the people excluded and labeled as mentally ill were generally what we would popularly call ladyboys, not homosexuals per se. Of course socially stigmatizing labeling is always messy and that labeling surely included some effeminate gay men and effeminate straight men as well.So the issue was appearance (such as sporting women's breasts) and overt feminine behavior, NOT sexual orientation! So yes of course many Thai gays served openly with no problem before 2005. http://www.utopia-as...8_18_223432.htm Previously, young men who were overtly feminine or living as women have been officially labeled as having a "severe psychological disorder," even though modern Thai psychiatrists do not consider homosexuality to be a mental illness. Edited January 9, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmac Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 These are two homosexuals who've probably had the roles that thy're expected to play forced upon them by the press. Jeez - they're happy - they think they're married - their relatives and friends think they'r married. Can't you just be happy for them rather than making a major song and dance about the dubious use of a word in a language that's not theirs? No of course he can't. Dear old JT just cannot pass up an oportunity to ram his own agenda down our throats, and though i"m sure he means well, sometimes his rather abrasive style can get on peoples' nerves. Live and let live, I say, and if these two guys are happy with the relationship that they and their families have made, then best of luck to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) These are two homosexuals who've probably had the roles that thy're expected to play forced upon them by the press. Jeez - they're happy - they think they're married - their relatives and friends think they'r married. Can't you just be happy for them rather than making a major song and dance about the dubious use of a word in a language that's not theirs? Dear old JT just cannot pass up an oportunity to ram his own agenda down our throats, and though i"m sure he means well, sometimes his rather abrasive style can get on peoples' nerves. How dare you accuse me of having good intentions! Expect to hear from my lawyer, as soon as I get a lawyer ... I wonder if Bobby Amsterdam is available. Seriously, I thought this story brought up some interesting BIGGER issues than the soap opera of this gaudy unreal marriage. If you ain't interested, is it really necessary to launch personal commentaries about posters? I realize many people are happy with just posting pablum, congratulations, blah blah about total strangers who they don't really care about any more than I do as specific persons if they would be honest. If that can be tolerated, why not something a little more meaty? Edited January 9, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 These are two homosexuals who've probably had the roles that thy're expected to play forced upon them by the press. Jeez - they're happy - they think they're married - their relatives and friends think they'r married. Can't you just be happy for them rather than making a major song and dance about the dubious use of a word in a language that's not theirs? Dear old JT just cannot pass up an oportunity to ram his own agenda down our throats, and though i"m sure he means well, sometimes his rather abrasive style can get on peoples' nerves. How dare you accuse me of having good intentions! Expect to hear from my lawyer, as soon as I get a lawyer ... I wonder if Bobby Amsterdam is available. Seriously, I thought this story brought up some interesting BIGGER issues than the soap opera of this gaudy unreal marriage. If you ain't interested, is it really necessary to launch personal commentaries about posters? I realize many people are happy with just posting pablum, congratulations, blah blah about total strangers who they don't really care about any more than I do as specific persons if they would be honest. If that can be tolerated, why not something a little more meaty? Because you're trying to impose your western assumptions about civil rights and marriage onto a culture that doesn't look at them the same way we in the west do. You're a cultural imperialist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Because you're trying to impose your western assumptions about civil rights and marriage onto a culture that doesn't look at them the same way we in the west do. You're a cultural imperialist! Thais don't want civil rights? That's kind of arrogant, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Because you're trying to impose your western assumptions about civil rights and marriage onto a culture that doesn't look at them the same way we in the west do. You're a cultural imperialist! Thais don't want civil rights? That's kind of arrogant, I think. And I think you ought to read what I said rather than what you think I said. Edited January 9, 2012 by endure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Because you're trying to impose your western assumptions about civil rights and marriage onto a culture that doesn't look at them the same way we in the west do. You're a cultural imperialist! Thais don't want civil rights? That's kind of arrogant, I think. And I think you ought to read what I said rather than what you think I said. I read it. Recognition of same-sex couples and family law Thai law currently does not recognize same-sex marriages, civil unions or domestic partnerships and it is unclear if a same-sex couple or an individual LGBT Thai would be permitted to adopt or have custody of children. The news of Elton John's civil partnership brought about criticism of the government from the Thai LGBT community, for the lack of such legal recognition in Thai law. Despite the lack of formal legal recognition, Thai same-sex couples tend to be publicly tolerated, especially in the more urban or westernized areas such as Phuket and Pattaya. In September 2011, the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand (a government body) and the Sexual Diversity Network (an NGO) proposed draft legisation on same-sex marriage and were seeking the Thai government's support for the law. wikiI reckon from your point of view the actions of the American government to try to help Africans in Nigeria and Sudan, etc. from being murdered for being gay is cultural imperialism too. As Hillary Clinton said, gay rights are human rights, and this is a totally INTERNATIONAL issue, and yes, Thailand is part of the world too. There is an objective, universal right and wrong in human ethics for some issues, and equal civil rights for gay people in all countries is included in that. Edited January 9, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I reckon from your point of view the actions of the American government to try to help Africans in Nigeria and Sudan, etc. from being murdered for being gay is cultural imperialism too. Sorry - now you're just being absurd and rather insulting too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I reckon from your point of view the actions of the American government to try to help Africans in Nigeria and Sudan, etc. from being murdered for being gay is cultural imperialism too. Sorry - now you're just being absurd and rather insulting too. Absurdity is something I cherish, so thank you. My point was backed up with evidence -- Thai LGBT people want civil rights too. Your quaint romantization of their "pure" culture has little to do with the struggles of everyday modern Thais. Such as the ladyboy who dreams of being a flight attendant who felt her job roles are limited by social oppression but now at least has ONE Thai airline who won't reject her just because of her sexual minority status. As far as "insulting", careful there -- kettle/black: http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4965311 Edited January 9, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I reckon from your point of view the actions of the American government to try to help Africans in Nigeria and Sudan, etc. from being murdered for being gay is cultural imperialism too. Sorry - now you're just being absurd and rather insulting too. Absurdity is something I cherish, so thank you. My point was backed up with evidence -- Thai LGBT people want civil rights too. Your quaint romantization of their "pure" culture has little to do with the struggles of everyday modern Thais. Such as the ladyboy who dreams of being a flight attendant who felt her job roles are limited by social oppression but now at least has ONE Thai airline who won't reject her just because of her sexual minority status. As far as "insulting", careful there -- kettle/black: http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4965311 There you go again - importing your US version of 'civil rights' into a country that's about as different as it's possible to be from the USA. Which particular set of 'Thai LGBT' people want 'civil rights' as assumed by you? I suspect that none of them constitute the majority of the Thai population who happen to be gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I hear you endure. You've had your say. We see things differently and that ain't gonna change. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ijustwannateach Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 1. I have deleted a borderline homophobic post and reply. 2. JT, when someone disagrees with you, it's not a duel to the death. Treating such occasions in such a manner isn't going to get you votes for 'member of the year'. Personally speaking, I am aware of many versions of 'homosexuality' in various countries, and I agree with Endure that there is no need for the way homosexuality and its politics operates simply to mirror what has happened in the US. There is a greater emphasis in many Asian countries on the option for cross-gender roles enacted and lived out- not merely played- by gay/transsexual men and women. This does not necessarily have the same cultural context or require the same legal approach as in the US. If the partners of the news article really feel more comfortable viewing themselves in some analog of a 'male/female' partnership, then so be it- I think it demeans them and shows really limited sociological understanding to say that either of them is 'only' 'playing' a role. To some extent, we all are. I 'play a role' as a teacher towards my students when I go to work, and in fact, I am a teacher- though this is not the role I mostly put on for my friends and loved ones. The fact that I am getting very good at this role doesn't mean that I am not actually functional in it. To suggest that I will never in fact be a teacher (in my own eyes or those of others) simply because it is a role that I put on when I go to work, is as absurd as to say that the roles these two young men have adopted are as meaningless in their own eyes or those of their families simply because it is something that they have socially adopted. Of course they don't need those roles to be gay - that's a much more basic element of their selves- but these roles are the way they have adapted to positioning their sexuality in Thai culture, and a very socially supported adaptation it seems to be! I think they are lucky to have this kind of support. Of course, that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING in Thailand is perfect for gays or transgenders, and it doesn't need to mean that to still seem sweet. We don't have to have a discussion of EVERY perceived improvement in another country compared to Thailand, and EVERY way in which there might still be inequality and discrimination in Thailand, to appreciate this specific couple or other specific couples for comparison and contrast- which his what I would like to see more posts about on this thread, if anyone's still interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Believe me, Sir Teacher, I would much rather express my (albeit quite often unpopular and unwelcome) truth than win some no cash value award. Now if you were talking some serious cash, I would certainly be happy to put on a real phony show for y'all. Anyway, no intention of spoiling the featured couples parade. But I honestly as said before don't feel anything about them as individuals. Is that really normal to feel about total strangers just because they got a picture in the paper? Do people read the obituaries and go into mourning everyday about all the newly dead in the world? Of course not, we filter that stuff out and deal with people we actually know. This isn't about Thailand adopting US values. It's about Thais seeking equal civil rights, as I did document, Thais are seeking legal civil rights. I think over time they have a good chance of winning many of these legal rights, yes in the Thai way, not the US way or the UK way. I recently saw a documentary about the 100,000 transgender people in Pakistan. Guess what? They are allowed to exist but are barred to certain professions, singing, dancing, begging, and prostituting. But they are fighting back and organizing, as yes, some Thai LGBT are doing so as well. Not by mass rallies in the streets, but some brave LEADERS have emerged and these leaders are working on it. The government promised them ID cards but never delivered on the promise. The government encouraged government agencies to hire some of them so that they all wouldn't be doomed to those limited professions, and at least one agency took them up on it. Tax debt collectors. Turns out they are brilliant at that as they show up all dressed up and freak out the deadbeats, so they pay up to make them go away. Its easy to look at the non-western treatment and reality of sexual minorities as quaint and it's their culture so don't mess with it. But you don't have to look far under the surface to see massive, institutionalized oppression. Edited January 10, 2012 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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