webfact Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Open Letter to PM Yingluck Re: Updating Laws Affecting Foreigners from Drew Noyes DREW NOYES, PAPPA CO., LTD. LAW OFFICE PATTAYA TIMES NEWSPAPER AND WEBSITE Dear Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, Happy New Year 2555 (2012). Since in 2012 there are many outdated regulations affecting foreigners in Thailand, and, by extension, the Thai citizens in their families, I would like to ask you to consider having your Ministry of the Interior to start the New Year looking into four major issues. We understand dealing with the flood crisis is the top priority of your administration. When there is time, please consider these reasons outlined herein for your administration to update Thai laws regarding condominium purchases, the inequality of the law not granting Thai citizenship to foreign men married to Thai women, but allowing foreign women married to Thai men to be citizens, and most urgently reducing financial requirements down from 800,000 baht per year for long stay retirees who own their homes in Thailand and also reducing the investment visa requirements so foreigners under 50-years-old can live here year-by-year instead of month-by-month. Please accept this letter as a request on behalf of many foreigners living in Thailand like myself. We met at the American Independence Day Celebration you attended as US Ambassador H.E. Kristie A. Kenney’s most honored guest immediately following your election and we spoke for a few minutes. Your kindness and the sincerity you expressed towards foreigners living in Thailand were refreshing. We feel that we now have the best opportunity to update laws that affect the lives of millions of people living in Thailand, with your help. Four areas of Thai law that need to be updated in 2012 for fairness relate to: 1) Foreign ownership of condominiums; 2) Foreign men married to Thai women; 3) Foreigners who own their home, but cannot meet the annual financial requirements set by Immigration to stay legally in Thailand; 4) Foreigners under 50 years of age who are still working outside of Thailand, but want to be based in Thailand and qualified for a stable visa by investing 3 million baht or more buying property, or investing in Thai stocks or depositing into Thai bank savings accounts formerly received a yearly, renewable non-immigrant visa, but now they no longer qualify for an investor's visa under current visa regulations. Please look into the possibility of repealing certain provisions of the Condominium Act of 2542 (1999) relating to percentage of foreign ownership. From my understanding of the Act, the intention was two-fold: Firstly, to make sure foreigners who had a financial advantage over Thais following the 1997/98 Asian Financial Crisis would not hold an unfair advantage over Thais causing the prices of condominiums to go up in a free, unrestricted market to the point Thais could not afford ownership. Secondly, to assure foreigners could not violate the restriction of owning land by having a majority interest in the Condominium Association allowing for the possibility of controlling the use of the land. At PAPPA Co., Ltd. Law Office which I manage we deal with this issue regularly. The first intent of the Act no longer is relevant now that Thais are financially solvent and western currencies are substantially discounted against the Thai Baht from the highs of the 1998 Thai Baht devaluation. Now the Condominium Act is unfair to Thai people. Why? If I buy a penthouse in a new condo by the beach in Naklua and you buy the penthouse opposite mine on the same floor we both pay the same amount. I get the chanote in my name as an American and you get yours in your name as a Thai. Two years later we both want to sell. Assuming the condos are identical, are they worth the same upon sale? The short answer is “no.” If the foreign allotment of 49% of the saleable area is taken, as it would be, then you can only sell your condo to a Thai or a Thai company limited. I, on the other hand, can sell my condo to anyone: To another foreign buyer, to a Thai or to a Thai company. In Pattaya the difference in value is 10-20% higher for like units in a foreigner’s name versus in Thai ownership. This is unfair to you. You paid the same price I did but you are restricted as to who your buyer can be. This was NOT the intent of the Act. Now I have the financial advantage over you, but the Act was meant to benefit Thais. As to the second intent of the Act, it is easily remedied. Foreign buyers of the first 49% of ownership could get voting rights, but all other foreign buyers after the 49% was reached would not have voting rights and their votes would by proxy be issued to the majority of the Thai vote on all issues before the Condominium Association at the Annual General Meeting (AGM). In this way, the foreigners could never control the use of the land. This solution still protects the intent of the Act. The next issue is sensitive in that it really is sexual discrimination against Thai women. Foreign women married to Thai men can apply for Thai citizenship based on their marriage to a Thai man, however, foreign men married to Thai women cannot become Thai citizens and must re-qualify every year for a one-year visa to stay in Thailand, thus causing undue stress and uncertainty in the relationship because the man is not accepted into Thai society like a women from his country married to a Thai would be. This should be equalized. Either both or neither should have the same advantage or disadvantage. Preferably both men and women should be allowed to qualify for Thai citizenship if married to a Thai national. The final issue would greatly reduce visa overstays and increase the number of foreign retirees in Thailand and increase sales of condominiums and houses in Thailand. Up until five years ago, a foreigner could transfer three million baht into Thailand and get an investor’s visa. If he or she bought a home and did not sell it and did not repatriate the inbound funds, then he or she could renew the visa indefinitely. But now at least 30 million baht inbound funds is required for an investor’s visa. Many foreigners over 50-years-old hold non-immigrant “A” long stay or retirement one-year renewable visas, own their own Thai home, have health insurance and get enough of a pension or other income from their home country sent to Thailand each year to live comfortably here based on the exchange rate when they moved to Thailand. However, with the appreciation of the Thai Baht over the years many foreigners no longer qualify to stay in Thailand because they don’t have the Thai Baht equivalent of 65,000 baht a month or 800,000 baht a year since their fixed income is paid in foreign exchange and converted to the continuously appreciating Thai baht versus their pension’s currency. For example, a man from England who decided to retire in Thailand at anytime from 2002 to mid-2008 would have calculated the value he would receive monthly from his British pension of his pounds sterling amount into Thai baht at an exchange rate of 60 – 70 baht to each pound. At 60 baht to the pound if his monthly pension is 13,500 pounds per month (1,112 pounds per month) he qualified easily for a one year visa for 6 straight years. He would see that he could live well in this beautiful country that welcomes foreigners, so he would change his future and move to Thailand to enjoy his Golden Years in peace. However, today, unfortunately, his pounds are worth less than 50 baht. At 60 baht to the pound he qualified for a one year visa for 6 years, but now at current exchange rates he can no longer live in Thailand (which he now calls home) even though he may own his own home here he bought with his life savings or from the sale of his home in his country. Assuming he sold his home and only owns a home in Thailand, where will he live? His friends are now Thais and expats in Thailand. His life is in Thailand. But he is forced out of Thailand just because of the foreign currency exchange rates over which he has no control. His life has been adversely affected in an extreme way and so have the lives of all of the Thais who have come to care about him and may even depend on him for advice, comfort and support. So if the fine Prime Minister could see your way to ask your capable Minister of the Interior to adjust the Immigration Bureau’s financial requirement to qualify for a one-year non-immigrant “A” visa by taking home ownership into consideration. If the qualification was adjusted so foreigners who invested in Thailand property market and bought their Thai residence could have the amount needed to stay in Thailand reduced because they do not pay rent so they need less than a foreigner who pays rent, then this would help tens of thousands of foreigners and their Thai families and friends. Since rent is usually 30% of expenses then the requirement of cash in the bank and monthly income for retired foreign home owners could be adjusted downwardly accordingly from 800,000 baht to 560,000 baht yearly or from 65,000 baht to 47,000 baht per month for retirees. Even more Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) would pour into Thailand if the requirement for a one-year, renewable, investment visa was reduced from 30 million baht back to 3 million baht. This way foreigners under 50-years-old could qualify to live in Thailand year-to-year, also, as long as they kept the money invested in Thailand by buying condominiums, houses, or investing in Thai stocks or depositing money into Thai bank savings accounts or interest-paying funds like Property Management and Development Co., Ltd. Thank you for all you do for Thailand, for our Thai families and for us foreigners in Thailand. You know how it is to be a foreigner in a country you love and want to stay in because you were educated and lived in America. Please let us know your thoughts on these issues and what can be done to update these laws and regulations affecting foreigners living peacefully in Thailand and, by association, the Thai citizens who are their friends and families. With respect, Drew Noyes Managing Director, PAPPA Co., Ltd. Law Office Managing Director, Pattaya Times Media Corporation Co., Ltd. AMCHAM member Siam Society member Source: http://pattaya-times.com/a7601-open-letter-to-pm-yingluck-requesting-changing-restrictions-on-foreigners -- Pattaya Times 2012-01-09 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushdepth Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lothda Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Are you serious? Better correct the mistakes first... "his monthly pension is 13,500 pounds per month (1,112 pounds per month))" etc. Better yet, work on something that would benefit a larger number of expats than the ones covered by your suggestions. Edited January 9, 2012 by lothda 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post EvilDrSomkid Posted January 9, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I fear that this letter will go straight to the grey file. It would have been good to have proofread the letter at least one more time before sending it. I can see several instances of inconsistencies and spelling mistakes. -"not accepted into Thai society like a women" -"At 60 baht to the pound if his monthly pension is 13,500 pounds per month (1,112 pounds per month)" -"foreign men married to Thai women cannot become Thai citizens and must re-qualify every year for a one-year visa to stay in Thailand," Not quite true. It is easier for foreign women married to Thai men to become citizens, but foreign men can become Thai citizens if married to a Thai woman, but the requirements are much stricter. Such things matter if you are going to send an open letter to a Prime Minister. Edited January 9, 2012 by EvilDrSomkid 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Suradit69 Posted January 9, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2012 Wow. A whole lot of (presumably) self-serving, poorly written verbal diarrhoea. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cigar7 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I think the letter deals with four important issues affecting thousands of foreigners. I fully support all 4 motions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phuketrichard Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Chok dee on getting a reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hurricane51 Posted January 9, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2012 I guess it's symptomatic of the general inattention to detail that an attorney submitted a document to the government with so many errors. Troubling beyond the content. Makes you think twice about trusting attorneys (like you need yet another reason). 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctira Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Good for you Drew, and I'm sure she will "overcome" this letter. Oops. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginjag Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 This letter is pretty lengthy and although some of the points made were fine, for certain individuals, Higher class ex pats, it may well be binned as it is too lengthy too answer. I would have had the main point of request -re visa runs No.1 No.2 the 800,000 be dropped to 400,000 retirement. No.3 leave the 30 day auto visa airport entry, but allow 20 day land entry, condo's penthouses not so important. If a ex pat cannot make the retirement criteria-and cannot return to his own country, his 90 day visa run fills his 10 year in less than 3 years with stamps. Stick to what the majority of ex pats want for a start, then bang at them later all this epic -saga of a letter. as in England-government letters, we were taught short and simple. Things may well happen otherwise letters get left in =in trays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blabla1 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Can i sum this up with fewer words? Please PM,can you treat foreigners fairly?? thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PingManDan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Good bloody luck mate, my guess it'll go staright to the ash can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alant Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I agree with the comments that a certain degree of proof reading would have been appropriate. However, I feel some of the criticism is harsh. It may well be that the author has the ear of the Prime Minister and as such some good may come of the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryp Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 This has to be the most idiotic thing ever, I take it the person responsible for this naive idea has just arrived in Thailand as anyone who has spent time here knows quite defiantly that NON Thais are viewed as buffalo dung by any Thai elite or Hi-So More like an advertising campaign that has also not been thought about........oh and good luck on renewing your work Permit and company registry as you will be well and truly placed on the watch list Take it from me over 40 years here ...NOTHING will ever change for the good of Foreigners here especially the 4 points raised Just look how a Thai woman gives up here rights when marrying a non Thai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanDobsky Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 If you expect her to understand it, you should have written it in Thai. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technologybytes Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 There are other issues of the condominium act that need to be cleared up. I seem to recall that there are two percentages, 49% and 40%. One being the percentage of units, and one being the percentage by area within the condominium bulilding. The 40% limit by area was increased to 49% as temporary measure, this quitely expired a couple of years ago leaving a number of people with condos that were within the foreign allocation (by area) when they bought but may not be when they come to sell. Mostly though I feel this letter will be filed in the cylindrical filing cabinet in the corner of Yingluck's office.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post theanimaster Posted January 9, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2012 A couple reasons this letter will be ignored: A.) it's in English B.) it's written by a farang C.) it's more than a few sentences long D.) she's going to wonder why you are talking about her penthouse when she has none -- she lives in a house XD (no really, she IS that daft)! Worse she might think you're referring to Penthouse the magazine XD What about the "professional teacher tests" business? Think she'll do anything about that? Granted, it only flourished during the time of the democrats... Rule #1 in Thailand: it won't happen unless someone can corrupt it and make more money from it. Silly farang... You no understand this no home you. We overcome you, not welcome you 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10wota Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Well whatever is written on the letter seems to be benefiting the foreigners in Thailand. But is it fine to ask for a government to change its laws so suit someone who is a "Foreigner"? Its like going to someone's house and then asking them to serve the breakfast at 5 am because its better for you? I believe that, if we are choosing to live in Thailand we should accept its rules and not ask a change in its laws. Ever imagined what would happen if all these "requests" are granted ? I mean from a Thai's point of view. Edited January 9, 2012 by R10wota 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon43 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 ... , I take it the person responsible for this naive idea has just arrived in Thailand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaywardWind Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I guess it's symptomatic of the general inattention to detail that an attorney submitted a document to the government with so many errors. Troubling beyond the content. Makes you think twice about trusting attorneys (like you need yet another reason). I don't think the author is an attorney. Manages a law office, but not an attorney himself IIRC. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregb Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 If you wanted someone to actually read this with the power to act on it, you should have addressed it to Chalerm. Even if Yingluck wanted to help out, by her own admission she has no idea what her cabinet is doing. Kind of a waste of time to ask her for anything. Hope it made the writer feel better though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post huahinjoe Posted January 9, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2012 Wish this would be so easy, but in the reality we may have to wait lightyears for things like this to happened... The reality is Thais are pretty much protect their nation from any foreign "intervention" (yes they think if they grant rights for us it will lead to intervention), they welcome tourists (sextourists too) but dont want any foreigner to live here long time, unless pay super extra high fees for visas, investments, etc. They really not fair if we look this special laws and compare to other nations, even a muslim Malaysia have better rules about marry to a malay girl and just look at Hong Kong, Singapore, Macau, etc. why they Prosper? Why they so advanced? Why they supercharged with the investments? Why they not 3rd world country? Why? because they let that so called dangerous, hated farang to come, settle down, invest, show the way of doing things... This country need a big shock to wake up, or who know, maybe this shocks are not enough (like tsunami, flooding, unrests, financial crisis), this mentality too deep in the nationailst society to open up, I think everybody must be happy at least can stay here somehow... For how long, nobody know and this is why most foreigners dont want to invest here because everything is so uncertain is better to pay that yearly visa and live day by day, month by month, year by year... Rent some cheap house, dont invest into anything, dont marry, dont spend big monies. If Europe/USA busted and people will dont have chance to come and visit thailand in big numbers every year, they might wake up and see the continously beleived magic tourist income will fall down, maybe-maybe will give some free tourist visas, haha... Complete nonsense whats going on here, and what we see? We see only super rich show-offs with hiso cars and houses and super poor thais struggle in the country without any protection, this is capitalism in a nationalist way, i think even communist China doing better because at least they welcome the businessman, not trying to put obsticles in front of them. But of course nobody want to live in a place like china, thats a jail country too, not talking about their disgusting behaviours, etc... Good luck for the letter, maybe would be better to sign an online petition those how many hundred thousand or million farang who live here, but nothing will happened, just matter or laugh for those riches who control the country and really dont care old papa with young poor wife bought his "land", wife will loose.... We are investment for them in a controlled manner, but its not investment for us how you expect from a normal foreign country... Wake up, adopt, accept or go away, they think new walking ATM will come always... 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post pepi2005 Posted January 9, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2012 I note a typical 'Thailand expat' attitude here: as soon as someone tries to engage himself for the community, he is ridiculed, criticized and spelling errors are fingerpointed at (usually not without spelling and grammatical errors). It's pitiable and pathetic, and shows how little self esteem there exists in many of us. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PattayaParent Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 "From my understanding of the Act, the intention was two-fold: Firstly, to make sure foreigners who had a financial advantage over Thais following the 1997/98 Asian Financial Crisis would not hold an unfair advantage over Thais causing the prices of condominiums to go up in a free, unrestricted market to the point Thais could not afford ownership." Not true, the 49% foreign ownersip restriction was in place before 1997/98 and due to the Asian Financial Crisis at the time the law was temporarily changed to allow foreign ownership of 100% of qualifying condo buildings because Thais did not have the money to be able to buy and the condo market risked failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post leebeeUK Posted January 9, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2012 How about an amendment to allow teacher's wh have been teaching English in Thailand for a few years now, but don't have a piece of paper that says Bachelor's degree on it, but do have lots of experience, in both their teaching and Thai culture, the educational system.. as well as other teaching quals, both gained in UK and here.. but now have to 'ship out' for someone with a bit a paper and whatever experience (if any?)??.. Yes I'm including and talking about myself in all this, at 48 years of age, I've been here 5 years and worked as an English teacher for all but 3 months of that time (including the first 3 months as a volunteer at a large orphanage and school).. I've actually been at the same Government school for over 4 years now.. but WILL NOT get my contract renewed end of March, as my UK (Huddersfield) University qualification says 'Certificate in Education' not 'Bachelor Degree or Masters in Education'!!.. Yes I'm pretty down about it, as I have a decent life here, despite my hardly spectacular 20k baht P.M. salary (couldn't do it back in England!!) and have never had anything but thanks - until now!!! - from my school... I'm sure there must be many similar farang folks, teaching (but not for much longer!!) under similar circumstances... and I think this insistence on bits of paper rather than 'Can you do the job well' is just b******s!!! Rant over!... all those in agreement (or similarly hassled!) please undersign and pass on... All the best in the New Year, all, regardless, LBUK ;-> (: 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcool Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 foreign men can become Thai citizens if married to a Thai woman, but the requirements are much stricter... Any link or advise to get Thai citizenship??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joetys Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Drew, if you are reading this I just like you to know whether you succeed or not a big thank you to you for standing up to the many thousands of foreigners here. Nice try and good luck I wish you success as it is also a success to us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Wow. A whole lot of (presumably) self-serving, poorly written verbal diarrhoea. It his his usual ways. A couple reasons this letter will be ignored: A.) it's in English B.) it's written by a farang C.) it's more than a few sentences long D.) she's going to wonder why you are talking about her penthouse when she has none -- she lives in a house XD (no really, she IS that daft)! Worse she might think you're referring to Penthouse the magazine XD What about the "professional teacher tests" business? Think she'll do anything about that? Granted, it only flourished during the time of the democrats... Rule #1 in Thailand: it won't happen unless someone can corrupt it and make more money from it. Silly farang... You no understand this no home you. We overcome you, not welcome you E) ** DELETED *** Edited January 9, 2012 by george Potentially defamation removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CockneyGit Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Is this some kind of veiled "rallying cry" to the expat community here to rise up..?? Absolute nonsense and a complete waste of time. The Thai laws will be changed when THEY decide and when THEY can benefit! If you don't like the rules here........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunPer Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks for speaking the case for many expats and foreigners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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