Open Letter To PM Yingluck Re: Updating Laws Affecting Foreigners From Drew Noyes

[Seekingasylum]

Irrespective of the OP's personal merits he in posting this open letter perhaps is guilty of making some good points rather badly.

The issue of farang migration to Thailand is a simple one. Is the government prepared to reconsider its strategy from one based on the perception farang are something to be feared or will they modernise and adopt the principle practised in the west whereby foreign spouses of citizens are granted indefinite residence with equal rights once a probationary period is served?

I suspect the answer will always be no, certainly for as long as the Thai - Chinese cabal that control the country continue to remain in power.

[pomchop]

Horrible letter...way too long and very poorly written. As a past ceo of several companies i can assure you that this letter will quickly go into the trash can. Hell as an interested farang even I couldn't get through the entire rambling mess.

Be succint, be brief, if you want a busy person to read it.

[CraigGarrison]

I have the house...and the farm...live off of 20l baht retirement a month...and have a guy who runs my passport to the border or bangkok each month...and comes back with a visa....whats the problem?

Edited January 9, 2012 by metisdead
Font reset, use default forum font when posting.

[bigbamboo]

I note a typical 'Thailand expat' attitude here: as soon as someone tries to engage himself for the community, he is ridiculed, criticized and spelling errors are fingerpointed at (usually not without spelling and grammatical errors).

It's pitiable and pathetic, and shows how little self esteem there exists in many of us.

+1

Wrong. IF this individual was 'engaging himself' for the ex pat community he would receive it's full support. I doubt in this instance if this is the case.

Edited January 9, 2012 by bigbamboo

[bigbamboo]

I have the house...and the farm...live off of 20l baht retirement a month...and have a guy who runs my passport to the border or bangkok each month...and comes back with a visa....whats the problem?

Craig, you sound as happy as a pig in sh*t.....!

[DickFarang]

What an idiot !

Let sleeping dogs lie.

[Debothai]

The letter to the PM is not going to be taken seriously, but at least it will get the Thai Government thinking that the immigration laws are maybe due for some reform. There is a large number of foreigners living already in the Kingdom. IMHO there should be some form of differentiation enabling those with a proper education and proper work experience to be able to live with more relaxed visa regulations, while at the same time limited the undesirable foreigners, as the authorities deem is appropriate.

The request for citizenship for foreign husband is a highly desirable idea, however although I don't think they will grant it, at least they should make a legal route so that interested foreingners can eventually attain citizenship, or at least permanent resident status. Even though the permanent resident status exsits, the quota must be increased for each country and the achievements of the foreigner's contribution to the Kingdom should be considered.

Immigrations law reforms can only take place if there is a will from the Government and I believe that there is not enogh interest at the present time. Certainly, if other nations are involved and a reciprocate aggreement is arranged for Thais who wish to reside abroad, it would be much more probable to expect reform in this law. But consider how hard it is, for a example for a Thai citizen to obtain US or UK residency.

The important thing is to remember that regardless of the visa laws, the Kingdom does want to have elite foreigners. All that is needed is to have some reform. What they do not want, is foreigners, doing nothing good for the society.

[elshaheen]

Wishful thinking. But highly unlikely with the way this government is heading.

Much easier to buy a condo in Arizona with a view of the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco, California.

[DickFarang]

Well whatever is written on the letter seems to be benefiting the foreigners in Thailand. But is it fine to ask for a government to change its laws so suit someone who is a "Foreigner"? Its like going to someone's house and then asking them to serve the breakfast at 5 am because its better for you? I believe that, if we are choosing to live in Thailand we should accept its rules and not ask a change in its laws. Ever imagined what would happen if all these "requests" are granted ? I mean from a Thai's point of view.

Well Said

I try to fit in some times not at all but I try. I have noticed many people are unhappy because they don't want to fit in they want to change every thing. I may never fit in completely but I can still enjoy the people and the country. It drives me crazy when I hear retirees complaining that they have to check in every 90 days. They can mail it i. But what are they doing that they can not spend the little time involved to check in every 90 days. Here in Chiang Mai the longest I have ever waited was 2 hours and that was because I got there a hour before it opened. Last time I waited ten minutes. I had gotten there two and a half hours after it opened.

Yes I know other visa are not that easy.

In Pattaya-Jomtien the 90 days notification takes only 5 minutes (if you go in the afternoon).

[badmedicine]

If anything this letter is likely to have the reverse effect than the one intended.

First, the PM (whether you like her or not, and I'm not a fan myself), is well-educated and intelligent. If she even reads 'open letters' (HIGHLY unlikely), she will not fail to notice:

i. the poor English

ii. the clearly self-serving nature of it

iii. the patronising logic

iv. the cheap sycophantism

Moreover, this letter represents everything that Thais don't like about foreigners - old men coming to look for young wives, buy their way into a country, father a few luuk-kreungs and water down the local gene pool. The foreigners that are liked here are rich, business investors, with their own wives and children, and who can help develop the business interests of the Thai elite.

The silly notion that the Yingluck (or any other) gov't would care two hoots to change laws to benefit foreigners on the argument that a tiny portion of poor Thai women will get some slight comfort out of it (and that's an assumption that's by no means a given) is facile when neither this nor the last gov't care much to waste time with policies to benefit the welfare of their own poor who are married to Thais. How, do you think, would it go down with the electorate if the Thai gov't spent valuable time debating policies like this when so many urgent problems affecting Thais need addressing? I couldn't think of a faster way for a red-shirt government to alienate its voter base.

Also, the silly appeal to Western values of sexual equality will also be scoffed at. Did the author of this letter think WHY the law is that way around? Farang women can get citizenship because they 'belong' to Thai men. Thai women lose rights (and farang men don't get citizenship) because they now belong to a foreigner. Failing to notice this basic cultural reality just shows that here we have another foreigner who lives in Thailand and has learned nothing about his host country. Wouldn't be surprised if he has trouble passing the Thai language test for his next visa (a law that is more than likely to come to pass if silly people like this keep popping their heads up and causing trouble).

I'm a foreigner and this letter fills me with disgust at the kind of foreigner that writes such things. I can only imagine how much more magnified that must be in the eyes of a Thai, which I'm sure would go something along the lines of

"Please stop imagining that you have some 'claim' or 'right' to change or influence things here. You're a guest, barely tolerated; you clearly understand little about our people, language, history and culture. You should concern yourself with keeping out of harms way and not have the temerity to write letters to the Thai gov't. Pra-jao! The cheek of it!!"

Edited January 9, 2012 by badmedicine

[RichardinBKK]

I note a typical 'Thailand expat' attitude here: as soon as someone tries to engage himself for the community, he is ridiculed, criticized and spelling errors are fingerpointed at (usually not without spelling and grammatical errors).

It's pitiable and pathetic, and shows how little self esteem there exists in many of us.

I do agree that there is the typical knee-jerk Expat Thai Visa negative spin applied to this, which I now accept as a foreseeable outcome and recognize is why the "forum" exists. The disconnect for me here is your "Thai Sensitive" approach, which I applaud, and your completely offensive image of Lord Buddha. There are Thai images that should never be used in a negative way...and you have chosen one of them. Might I suggest either something respectful, or funny without being offensive?

[prefabs]

For all of those who are supporting Mr Noyes in his efforts, may I enquire how many of you live in the Pattaya area. This man has a well documented chequered past and is the subject of numerous allegations against him. I am sue no one in this area gives one hoot about his letter to the PM, he has just come up with another way to sensationalise his newspaper

[bigbamboo]

For all of those who are supporting Mr Noyes in his efforts, may I enquire how many of you live in the Pattaya area. This man has a well documented chequered past and is the subject of numerous allegations against him. I am sue no one in this area gives one hoot about his letter to the PM, he has just come up with another way to sensationalise his newspaper

That is Pattaya, soon to be the 'hub of ASEAN'!

[Pib]

We would have better luck by blocking a road somewhere and demanding to speak to the chief of immigration.

[pontius]

I note a typical 'Thailand expat' attitude here: as soon as someone tries to engage himself for the community, he is ridiculed, criticized and spelling errors are fingerpointed at (usually not without spelling and grammatical errors).

It's pitiable and pathetic, and shows how little self esteem there exists in many of us.

+1

Wrong. IF this individual was 'engaging himself' for the ex pat community he would receive it's full support. I doubt this is the case. Check him out first and see why some of us are sceptical.

Wrong indeed. I feel statistically abused here . This "self-engagement" is not addressing my major concerns (co-ownership of house with wife, over 49% business ownership), so please Pattaya man who stated these misspelled requests initially, do not count me in your group of mortified falangs.

[ballpoint]

If you expect her to understand it, you should have written it in Thai.

Or better yet, drawn as a comic strip with appropriate captions:

"Farang he buy room in heap big house, tall same as bird in sky...

Other farang, he want room too. Can not, too many farang already live heap big house...

Thai, he want sell room to farang. Can not, room for Thai people only...

Farang, he want sell room. Can sell Thai, can sell farang,,,"

[pontius]

For "foreigners", many posters erroneously on this forum read "farangs".

They seem to forget that most inward migration, particularly economic migration, comes from surrounding Asian countries with large populations and lower per capita income, particularly China and Burma.

The laws are designed primarily with these people in mind.

They need to meet those 400K/800k requirements, etc? Oh really?

Let me rephrase that, even though it's a silly sentence: Oh really?

Edited January 9, 2012 by pontius

[BradWalker]

For reasons that I cannot say, without Mr. Noyes consent, I am sure that the letter will get to Ms. Yingluck and will get her attention. I am also sure that she, or anyone else concerned will not even be aware of the small grammatical errors in it. What I am also sure of is the absolute vitality of the contents. Most of the issues mentioned concern me directly. I am married to a Thai national; I paid for a house (do not, as many will know, actually 'own' it) and live here on an income somewhere in the range of the visa requirement. When i first came to live here, the baht was 42 to the dollar; now it is 31. As such my "income" has shrank by 25%-not really my fault. I support three Thai nationals, as well as myself, with this money. Supposing there is another US disaster-say the election of Michele Bachman as president-and the dollar shrinks further. Maybe I no longer qualify for my Visa-do I just dump my house, wife, mother-in-law and step-daughter and leave? And go where? I live here and have for seven years. I do not like the thought that my future, and that of those dear to me, is to be decided by the world's currency traders, or, for that matter, the Thai Immigration Department.

Ms. Yingluck, please listen to Khun Drew; your brother did and it helped Thailand emerge from the '97 Asian financial cataclysm.

[randomchase]

Good luck.

! scuse me ? when was it possible for a foreigner to buy a home or land, i paid 5 mill for home, its in my wife's name?? had to be, had to say the money was from Thailand, had to pay for a lease, so i can live it and not get thrown out by the owner!!! i think this letter writer should get clued up please don't tell me about companies etc try the real world [we are trash] however much we help or support our Host, we bring in good income to Thailand monthly yearly support extended families etc . still its warm here R

[Insight]

Ms. Yingluck, please listen to Khun Drew; your brother did and it helped Thailand emerge from the '97 Asian financial cataclysm.

[pepi2005]

your completely offensive image of Lord Buddha. There are Thai images that should never be used in a negative way...and you have chosen one of them.

neither is Buddha a "Thai Image" (but a person not 'owned' by any country),

nor is he a 'lord' if you are using this term referring to god. Buddha was a

spiritual leader. http://en.wikipedia....God_in_Buddhism

Anyhow, as I certainly don't want to offend anyone (even if it is due to a misunderstanding),

I have changed my Avatar already.

p.s. i don't see it updated though, maybe it is still stuck in the cache. Will check back later.

Edited January 9, 2012 by pepi2005

[willwildy]

From my experience the upper class Thais really don't want us here unless they can make some money off it. I have associated with a few and they pretty much could give a <deleted> less about some farmer or his family or the farang that supports them. As for the upper class guys they figure we just run the prices up for their shot at the farmers daughter.

On the fair side of the coin it is pretty much the same in our home countries. Talk to a Brit about some Indian or Pakistani who resides there. Try an American out on the subject of Mexicans staying in the USA.

We are fairly lucky they let us come here at all on a 30 day tourist visa on arrival. Try getting a tourist visa for your Thai girl to visit your country. See how that works out for you.

From experience I would say come here, rent something, make sure your assets are portable at the drop of a hat (or at least cheap enough that you can abandon them without being butt hurt) and enjoy your life. If you marry one as with any woman don't expect it to last a lifetime. Also as with any women don't expect them to stay with you once you stop providing for them or fall ill. It's not just thai's it's all women.

I love it here but see the reality in the situation.

Bill

[AzarovDmitriy]

I think she will hear us. At least he is trying to change our live for the better.

[Derifo]

Missing is foreign ownership of land...Why can't I own the small 208 square meter piece of land I live on in Thailand while a Thai can go to my country and buy as much as she/he likes. What on earth do the Thais think I am going to do with my small plot? Build a nuclear missile! Dig it up and ship it to UK. Come on if the Thais really think it is BAD for somebody to own land in a country that is not their own (nationality) then a law should be passed forbidding ALL THAIS FROM OWNING LAND OVERSEAS. See how they like that.

Honestly a reasonable change would be One Rai per foreigner family.

It's designed to benefit the women foreigners marry here.

[FrankBE]

I note a typical 'Thailand expat' attitude here: as soon as someone tries to engage himself for the community, he is ridiculed, criticized and spelling errors are fingerpointed at (usually not without spelling and grammatical errors).

It's pitiable and pathetic, and shows how little self esteem there exists in many of us.

Yep , totally correct...

A pity.

[sungod]

For reasons that I cannot say, without Mr. Noyes consent, I am sure that the letter will get to Ms. Yingluck and will get her attention. I am also sure that she, or anyone else concerned will not even be aware of the small grammatical errors in it. What I am also sure of is the absolute vitality of the contents. Most of the issues mentioned concern me directly. I am married to a Thai national; I paid for a house (do not, as many will know, actually 'own' it) and live here on an income somewhere in the range of the visa requirement. When i first came to live here, the baht was 42 to the dollar; now it is 31. As such my "income" has shrank by 25%-not really my fault. I support three Thai nationals, as well as myself, with this money. Supposing there is another US disaster-say the election of Michele Bachman as president-and the dollar shrinks further. Maybe I no longer qualify for my Visa-do I just dump my house, wife, mother-in-law and step-daughter and leave? And go where? I live here and have for seven years. I do not like the thought that my future, and that of those dear to me, is to be decided by the world's currency traders, or, for that matter, the Thai Immigration Department.

Ms. Yingluck, please listen to Khun Drew; your brother did and it helped Thailand emerge from the '97 Asian financial cataclysm.

Interesting first post from a new member today, you sure that's not you there Drew? (I 'm sorry, I mean BradWalker)

[stailmanki]

I note a typical 'Thailand expat' attitude here: as soon as someone tries to engage himself for the community, he is ridiculed, criticized and spelling errors are fingerpointed at (usually not without spelling and grammatical errors).

It's pitiable and pathetic, and shows how little self esteem there exists in many of us.

+1

The poor composition and lack of diligence by the O.P. is a bad reflection on us all.

Spelling and grammar check is so easy on the computer.

Nearly all six pages of replies to this post have spelling and grammatical errors , this is especially amusing in replies criticising the errors in the O.P.

[TomTao]

It would have been good if the letter covere all farangs who live here, we all bring money into this country, some more, some less, we all put money from our countries and/or jobs into the economy, all of us should have been included, not just a narrow spectrum.

[Morgo]

Some points from a report by Gavin Jones (ANU). 1/ Thailands fertility rates are now 30% below replacement levels. 2/ Thailands population will begin to decline after 10yrs unless fertility rates are increased or net immigration is increased. 3/ Better educated Thais are moving abroad at increasing rates. 4/ Thailands aged (above 60) will increase from its present rate of 13% to 24% by 2030.

Why then are we being subjected to this monthly charade by the Thailand Immigration department, would have been a better question. Educated westerners who want to immigrate to Thailand are being discouraged.

[ingvar]

Never mind, nobody reads it anyhow. And dont forget the tea money that turns the wheels of Thai Government.