UN's Ban seeks Israel-Palestine peace talks during upcoming Middle East visit

[gopnarak]

^

That argument looks like that Israel needs some Palestinian "hardliner" more than anyone else.

[Jingthing]

The Palestinians decided to diss Israel and seek "recognition" abroad. I don't blame them for trying but it doesn't change one thing on the ground. Personally, I am against the west bank settlements. I'm not prepared to get technical about exactly what lands Israel would need to satisfy security concerns but I am sure only 1967 doesn't cut it. I am thinking more about buffer lands in strategic places. Then there is Jerusalem. If they ever get that far in the negotiation, which I predict they won't.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't believe the continued building of settlements on occupied territory is land taken as a result of war.

No one cared when Jordan occupied that land and they made no attempt to give it to the Palestinian Arabs.

[Jingthing]

I have a 30 year plan for the Palestinians. Start teaching their children that Israel has a right to exist and stop teaching them it is glorious to God to murder Jews. Then in 30 years, a miracle can happen. Not an easy thing to happen considering the father of the Palestinian nationalist movement was an active Nazi collaborator living in Berlin who totally bought into Hitler's Jewish solution.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Jingthing

[flying]

I have a 30 year plan for the Palestinians. Start teaching their children that Israel has a right to exist

Only if an equal plan is taught to the Israelis...

[Ulysses G.]

It already has been. That is why they keep trying make peace - only to be rejected once again. The Israelis are the ones that accepted the deal offered by the UN more than 60 years ago and that is why they have their own country and the Palestinian Arabs - who refused it repeatedly - do not.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[flying]

It already has been. That is why they keep trying make peace - only to be rejected once again. The Israelis are the ones that accepted the deal offered by the UN more than 60 years ago and that is why they have their own country and the Palestinian Arabs - who refused it repeatedly - do not.

I am not sure building on lands that is not theirs & then killing anyone who comes near it is a form of making peace.

As for the 51st State getting their name up in lights & the Palestinians not......Well I think association had more to do with it.

aka:having friends in high places......But Palestine seems to be getting their own recognition these days too.

In the end it would be nice to see it all end peacefully but as always it takes two....Two actually stopping what the problems are.

The problems they themselves instigate.

Edited January 31, 2012 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

The Palestinian Arabs refused the land when the UN offered it to them and refuse to make peace now. It is not their land until they sign a treaty and that seems a long way off.

[Scott]

A series of inflammatory, baiting and off-topic posts as well as replies have been deleted.

Continued circular arguments and nasty personal comments and inferences are going to result in warnings.

[Morch]

I'm sure that there are Palestinians who would prefer the ways of peace.

My point was that you don't actually here them speak up much.

There can be many explanations and reasons, but fact stands that on the whole, you don't hear a lot of criticism when it comes to acts of terror. In some cases quite the opposite. I find it sad.

If you don't hear them you should start to listen.

I would be glad to. Links?

I still haven't figured out what is considered off topic here or will get labeled and deleted as conspiracy theory or nonsense and for what posters get penalised.

I don't want test that out with a trial and error method as there are also punishments for doing it wrong and also a waste of time on my side when my posts get deleted.

But judging by other comments i have read from you, i think you have the ears to hear and are also aware how distorted the images we get trough the media can sometimes be.

Your post is still here, so guess no problems with that.

If media distort things so badly, please enlighten me on the subject of Palestinian public desent with the ways of terror.

[Steely Dan]

If media distort things so badly, please enlighten me on the subject of Palestinian public desent with the ways of terror.

Well they certainly seem to have no trouble with the fact many of their streets are named after terrorists and suicide bombers. Indeed I read recently that the cold blooded murderers of the Fogel settler family were recently praised on Palestinian TV

!

As Danny Ayalon stated "Is it possible to make peace when cold-blooded child murderers are venerated as heroes and legends?" Of course it isn't, generation after poisoned generation of Jew hatred has been the way of things in the Arab world hence the total lack of Palestinian condemnation of terror attacks.

P.S Incidentally I would love to have posted the link from where I discovered the Youtube video which showed graphic pictures of the murdered, though I know for sure I would be suspended, I would invite anyone to search for these themselves if only to juxtaposition these against the backdrop of Palestinian glorification for the acts, which were termed 'heroic' by a PA spokesman in the immediate aftermath.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

Denying the Right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument their return would be a demographic treat is a racist argument.

Denying the right of return for the Palestinian Arab refugees based on the argument that Jewish refugees cannot go back to Egypt, Morocco, Yemen is a form of collective punishment of the Palestinian Arabs.

It would be wrong to assume that two wrongs make it right or If you think that is okay that Jewish refugees are not allowed to return back or that they have no right to get a compensation - you are wrong too.

But that is an issue you have to discuss with Libya, Iraq or whatever but not with the Palestinian refugees.

The demographic and economical conditions won't change by ignoring them.

So once again....where are all of those people supposed to live? How are they going to make a living? Or is just having them return and letting it sort out itself good enough?

Would Arab Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank be forthcoming to return properties they held on to for such a long time? Are they willing to share limited living space with refugees?

This isn't just about Israeli or Jewish views. A whole lot more complex.

I wasn't denying any right of anyone. just pointing out that while the Palestinians and the Arab world in general call for a Right of Return, it seems they apply it one way only.

I just pointed out the racist nature of some simplistic arguments.

Of course such migration process will not come without any problems, but is that a reason to deny the right of return?

Who said that they will come in masses and every Arab around the world who has some distant relative in the greater grand parents generation with a connection to Palestine will now send all his children and grandchildren, wives, aunts, uncles cousins and their children and grand children to beat the Israeli Jews in the demographic match.

So what to do with those people in these refugee ghettos. Ignoring them? Denying that the exist? Waiting longer till all of the original and first generation of refugees have died because of old age and their grand children are now the grandparents themselves so that because they don't know anyone who was once really there their hope to "return" becomes totally abstract and any right to return doesn't become valid before a 2000 years waiting period in the diaspora?

And again don't lump all Arabs from all these different countries together just because you can call them all Arabs.

But okay, you were not the only one who mentioned that so lets look at that argument.

Assumed that

1. In the Arab world in general Jews were forced to flee and leave their homes. If these Jewish refugees would now ask for a right of return to their grandparents homes it would be denied by the Arab world.

Assumed that

2. Somehow it happened that the Palestinian Arabs left their homes in a hurry and became refugees. These Palestinian Arabs demand a right of return to their homeland but that is denied by Israel.

3. And now?

So what you're interested in here is to create a new humanitarian/political problem by introducing a simplified solution to another. Let them return, see how it pans out later. Doesn't sound like a well thought out notion.

I don't think the issue is ever ignored. Just that the gaps between the positions of both sides are too far apart. It is not realistic to envision a mass return of Palestinian refugees to Israel, with all property given back. It is also not realistic to think that 4 million people can live forever as stateless refugees without citizenship.So long as no side is ready to make some concessions, there is no viable solution.

You miss the point raised regarding Jews being refugees from Arab states. The Palestinians do not bear responsibility to that, at least not in any direct way. It was used to show that (1) most Arab nations got double standards when it comes to this issue, and (2) that in general, refugees Right of Return (which, by the way, has quite a few interpretations) isn't an obvious thing (another good example would be people dislocated after India's partition).

Edited January 31, 2012 by Morch

[Wallaby]

I don't believe the continued building of settlements on occupied territory is land taken as a result of war.

No one cared when Jordan occupied that land and they made no attempt to give it to the Palestinian Arabs.

Well that should be pretty much self explanatory then shouldn't it. Israel is obviously doing something wrong and perhaps it is time they changed their ways.

[Steely Dan]

I don't believe the continued building of settlements on occupied territory is land taken as a result of war.

No one cared when Jordan occupied that land and they made no attempt to give it to the Palestinian Arabs.

Well that should be pretty much self explanatory then shouldn't it. Israel is obviously doing something wrong and perhaps it is time they changed their ways.

The answer to that should be clear unless you are willfully blind - Jordan is a Muslim state, Israel is a Jewish state, that's the difference in a nutshell.

[Morch]

I have a 30 year plan for the Palestinians. Start teaching their children that Israel has a right to exist

Only if an equal plan is taught to the Israelis...

Not quite on the same level there.

Palestinian education system and media do, on many instances, convey messages of hate, aggression and racism when it comes to Israel and/or Jews. Not limited to Hamas. by any means.

Same goes for many Arab and Muslim countries.

Israel's mainstream education and media do not. Yes, the basic reference point may not be all friendly like, but generally, the underlying notion is much milder. Things may be different when you consider extreme right wing media, and religious oriented education. Then again, Israel got a large Arab minority, so guess it balances somehow :-).

This relates to something I mentioned earlier - it is easier for the majority (or "stronger group") to allow milder and more diverse opinions within itself.

[Ulysses G.]

Well that should be pretty much self explanatory then shouldn't it. Israel is obviously doing something wrong and perhaps it is time they changed their ways.

Like become Muslims.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Rusty2009]

Well that should be pretty much self explanatory then shouldn't it. Israel is obviously doing something wrong and perhaps it is time they changed their ways.

Like become Muslims.

a very good and intelligent answer

fact since 1967 500.000 settlers have occcupied the west Bank and East Jerusalem. There are extrmists on both sides, Mr Gideon Saar the Education Minister condemned the "price tag" policy conducted by extremist settlers and referred to them as a Cancerous growth, the palestinans go back to the Arab council on Feb 4th, i guess then we will learn more, if they want a settled peacefull outcome to the problems

[Pakboong]

Well that should be pretty much self explanatory then shouldn't it. Israel is obviously doing something wrong and perhaps it is time they changed their ways.

Like become Muslims.

a very good and intelligent answer

fact since 1967 500.000 settlers have occcupied the west Bank and East Jerusalem. There are extrmists on both sides, Mr Gideon Saar the Education Minister condemned the "price tag" policy conducted by extremist settlers and referred to them as a Cancerous growth, the palestinans go back to the Arab council on Feb 4th, i guess then we will learn more, if they want a settled peacefull outcome to the problems

Unfortunately, there can be no lasting peace as long as the predisposed notion of the the current home team is that if when the treaty is broken, regardless of the facts and circumstances, only the Palestinians can be held responsible. Palestine in all their mediocrity would be totally stupid to sign a treaty under these conditions. I do wonder from time to time whether or not I have underestimated them.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Pakboong

[nurofiend]

None of them - other than Mandella - purposely targeted innocent civilians for mass murder -, so what is your point?

What i am trying to say those without sin should cast the first stone, Benjamin Netanyahu himself is a decorated soldier gaining the rank of Captain with the special forces, and i am sure also a member of Mossad, who we all know are squeaky clean.

Rusty, both sides are not pure and both sides have legitimate issues they have every right to pursue. What bugs me are the people who try to paint this conflict as pure black and white, either way. Sure Palestinians deserve their own state. A fair reading of history shows they could have had that DECADES ago, and to only blame Israel for their failure is simply unfair.

Thank you sir, i agree 100% with you, and i truly hope they can find away to stop the killing.do we all not kneel to pray?,

no... it's a pity some of us do!

tho i know there are plenty of other baseless reasons other than religion to hate eachother for.

[Steely Dan]

Looks like Ban received the order of the shoe from Palestinians unhappy over UN bias.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/152367#.TyqpgFYorTo

An angry crowd hurled shoes and stones at United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's convoy as it entered Hamas-run Gaza on Thursday.

[Rusty2009]

Looks like Ban received the order of the shoe from Palestinians unhappy over UN bias.

http://www.israelnat...67#.TyqpgFYorTo

An angry crowd hurled shoes and stones at United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's convoy as it entered Hamas-run Gaza on Thursday.

you can turn and spin the news any way you want this taken from the BBC

Forty or 50 protesters gathered on the Gaza side of the Erez crossing as Mr Ban's armoured vehicle passed into Gaza, reports said.

Many were relatives of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, who are currently said to number about 4,000.

The protesters formed a human chain in an attempt to hold up his convoy, reported AP news agency, but Hamas security forces moved them away.

[nurofiend]

Looks like Ban received the order of the shoe from Palestinians unhappy over UN bias.

http://www.israelnat...67#.TyqpgFYorTo

An angry crowd hurled shoes and stones at United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's convoy as it entered Hamas-run Gaza on Thursday.

you can turn and spin the news any way you want this taken from the BBC

Forty or 50 protesters gathered on the Gaza side of the Erez crossing as Mr Ban's armoured vehicle passed into Gaza, reports said.

Many were relatives of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, who are currently said to number about 4,000.

The protesters formed a human chain in an attempt to hold up his convoy, reported AP news agency, but Hamas security forces moved them away.

but don't you realize that an israeli newspaper is a more reliable and neutral source for this story?

[Steely Dan]

but don't you realize that an israeli newspaper is a more reliable and neutral source for this story?

How right you are, the BBC instigated an external inquiry into it's alleged anti-Israel bias (Balen report). On completion the BBC then refused to publish the report and then spent a fortune in the high court blocking attempts to publish it under the freedom of information act.

Here is another BBC tearjerker about a poor Palestinian mass murderer exiled in Qatar.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16638652

Shammasina was sentenced to 23 years in jail for his role in the 1990 murder of three Israelis and a further 20 years for planning a kidnapping. Despite spending almost half his life in prison, he does not regret his actions.

His 'role' as it turns out was as follows, needless to say totally missing from the BBC article.

But it doesn't say a word about his victims.

Who did Shammasina kill?

Lior Tubul and Ronen Karmani, were both seventeen years old (some reports say Ronen was 18.) On a summer day in 1990, they went to visit their girlfriends north of Jerusalem.

Shammasina abducted them, bound their hands behind their backs, gagged them and then stabbed them dozens of times, so that their faces were unrecognizable. They were dumped in a ravine nearby.

This subhuman scum was also involved in murdering a taxi driver, Rafi Doron, as well as abducting and killing a hitchhiking soldier, Yehoshua Friedberg.

This is the monster - and child-killer - that the BBC is asking its readers to sympathize with.

P.S The BBC has a lucrative Arab language service.

[Rusty2009]

but don't you realize that an israeli newspaper is a more reliable and neutral source for this story?

How right you are, the BBC instigated an external inquiry into it's alleged anti-Israel bias (Balen report). On completion the BBC then refused to publish the report and then spent a fortune in the high court blocking attempts to publish it under the freedom of information act.

Here is another BBC tearjerker about a poor Palestinian mass murderer exiled in Qatar.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-16638652

Shammasina was sentenced to 23 years in jail for his role in the 1990 murder of three Israelis and a further 20 years for planning a kidnapping. Despite spending almost half his life in prison, he does not regret his actions.

His 'role' as it turns out was as follows, needless to say totally missing from the BBC article.

But it doesn't say a word about his victims.

Who did Shammasina kill?

Lior Tubul and Ronen Karmani, were both seventeen years old (some reports say Ronen was 18.) On a summer day in 1990, they went to visit their girlfriends north of Jerusalem.

Shammasina abducted them, bound their hands behind their backs, gagged them and then stabbed them dozens of times, so that their faces were unrecognizable. They were dumped in a ravine nearby.

This subhuman scum was also involved in murdering a taxi driver, Rafi Doron, as well as abducting and killing a hitchhiking soldier, Yehoshua Friedberg.

This is the monster - and child-killer - that the BBC is asking its readers to sympathize with.

P.S The BBC has a lucrative Arab language service.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/4/newsid_2514000/2514437.stm

i know there is no way to forget the past, but i just hope for an end to the blood shed on both sides

[GentlemanJim]

If media distort things so badly, please enlighten me on the subject of Palestinian public desent with the ways of terror.

Well they certainly seem to have no trouble with the fact many of their streets are named after terrorists and suicide bombers. Indeed I read recently that the cold blooded murderers of the Fogel settler family were recently praised on Palestinian TV

!

As Danny Ayalon stated "Is it possible to make peace when cold-blooded child murderers are venerated as heroes and legends?" Of course it isn't, generation after poisoned generation of Jew hatred has been the way of things in the Arab world hence the total lack of Palestinian condemnation of terror attacks.

P.S Incidentally I would love to have posted the link from where I discovered the Youtube video which showed graphic pictures of the murdered, though I know for sure I would be suspended, I would invite anyone to search for these themselves if only to juxtaposition these against the backdrop of Palestinian glorification for the acts, which were termed 'heroic' by a PA spokesman in the immediate aftermath.

Steely

If you take a bunch of men and imprison them for endless years and deny them basic human rights (as happens in many of our prisons) , they will form a very strong team that will exude a hatred towards any form of authority. they will take any opportunity to hurt, maim or kill the prison staff, regardless of the consequences on the additional length of their incarceration. Apply the same lessons to Palestine, where the people are kept prisoner in a very small area of land, with an ever increasing population. No hope, no access to construction materials etc etc etc. They hate Us! We have created the hatred and we have given birth to countless young men and women who now want to do us harm. the situation can only get worse if strategies remain unchanged.

[Jingthing]

Who created the hatred? You've got to look back a bit. The Great Mufti of Jerusalem, the notorious Nazi collaborator who was the father of the Palestinian nationalist movement already had the hatred long ago.

[Pedzie]

Who created the hatred? You've got to look back a bit. The Great Mufti of Jerusalem, the notorious Nazi collaborator who was the father of the Palestinian nationalist movement already had the hatred long ago.

Who is creating the hatred now!

Edited February 3, 2012 by Pedzie

[Jingthing]

Who created the hatred? You've got to look back a bit. The Great Mufti of Jerusalem, the notorious Nazi collaborator who was the father of the Palestinian nationalist movement already had the hatred long ago.

Who is creating the hatred now!

Not me. It helps to understand why the peoples there don't truth each other. To understand better, it is important that people know the father of Palestinian nationalism was a vicious Jew hater who worked hard to help Hitler send Jews to death camps. That is a fact. Just to know recent events isn't enough to know the bigger picture. The hatred a Gaza youth today has towards Jews, something they are taught all their life, is not something that historically started during the Gaza blockade by Israel. When Israel became a state in the late 1940s the Arab world attacked, repeatedly, and it is a bit of a miracle that Israel even survived from that.

(BTW, it was understandable that the Mufti didn't want Europe to let their Jews escape to Palestine. What was collaboration was promoting that the Jews be sent on transports to Eastern Europe when he had the full insider knowledge of the mechanics of the death camps. Also he tried to persuade Hitler to bring his genocide of the Jews to Palestine but the Nazis were too bogged in other theaters to ever carry that out.)

Also, keep in mind I was directly responding to the above totally outrageous assertion:

We have created the hatred and we have given birth to countless young men and women who now want to do us harm.

No, it isn't in any way that simple or one sided.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Jingthing

[Pedzie]

I agree with most of what you've written above JT...

It's 2012 now...Who are the aggressors ??

[Jingthing]

I agree with most of what you've written above JT...

It's 2012 now...Who are the aggressors ??

That's a loaded question. You seem to like to play simple minded black and white games over this massively complex situation. The Palestinians STILL won't accept the existence of the Jewish state. How does work negotiating peace with a people that don't accept your existence?