Pushing, Shoving And Line Jumping

[pumpum]

Is it appropriate to point it out when it happens...or to make an effort to "reclaim" your space?

This has happened to me constantly in all manners and forms since I arrived in Thailand several months ago. Sometimes I can let it go and it is silliness...other times, it is not so silly.

For example, on a long bus trip, I was located in the front bus seat and had trouble exiting the bus when it stopped - the line of people in the aisle literally wouldn't let me out of my seat and kept pushing forward, very close to one another. I had to wait until the bus cleared out entirely. Would the appropriate thing have been to push back? Is that expected, even?

Then, I exited the bus and went to the restroom where I waited in line for about 15 or so minutes before being first in line. Immediately after becoming first in line, a woman cruised from the back of the line to the front of the line and planted herself in front of me, not looking at me or acknowledging me at all. I was in desperate need to use the restroom after the long bus trip so this was a huge inconvenience for me, in fact...should I have 'reclaimed' my space by stepping right back in front of her? There was a long line, snaking out the door of the building so she knew very well what was going on...she did it on purpose.

On a day-to-day basis, I wait patiently in line for the MRT, sometimes not making the first train. Oftentimes this puts me at the front of the line for the next train. However, undoubtedly, a "third" line begins to form, or sometimes a single person, that pushes in front of me to get on the train. The funny thing is, the uniformed MRT official that is sometimes present at these times has never said anything about these people, yet has reprimanded me for having my toes over the edge of the yellow line and watched me suspiciously to make sure I didn't do it again. My question here is, why even have a line?

[pumpum]

This has also happened to me at the supermarket, where someone tried to push in front of me and put their items on the conveyor belt when my items were already on there and beginning to be scanned by the checker.

Another version of this same phenomena occurs when someone walks straight into me instead of sharing a sidewalk space or when exiting a storefront or office whilst I am walking straight.

[LuckyLew]

It is just the Thai way

They think nothing of doing what you have mentioned

They think nothing of cutting in line

They do not think it is necessaryto say thank you if you help them or hold the door open for them.

They do not think theyshould hold the elevator for you, in fact they are more likely to press the close door button

What many cultures would see as being polite is common practice here, you just have to get used to it .... or ...

In my case, I have adapted, I purposely make usre the door closes behind me if there is a person behind me

I smile at them as I press "close door"

If they cut in front of me, I accidently step on thir ankles .... with a smile

[pumpum]

So is it acceptable to try and take measures to prevent this from happening, ie block someone from doing it or not let them by?

[dddave]

I often find it is fellow westerners who tend to cluster in groups at the doorways of the Skytrain; and they are most frequently, the loudest.

I find line pushing and cutting to be just as bad in other parts of Asia, except for China which is ten times worse. When I visited Germany last year, the line cutting at Immigration...well, actually no line at all, a shoving cluster better describes it, was my introduction to what seemed a national obsession with pushing ahead; at train stops, beergardens, restaurants....the Thais could learn a thing or two there.

[pumpum]

Maybe it is a worldwide trend then, I don't know. Has never happened to me here with a farang though. The MRT thing is the best example I can provide...I have numerous times waited for a second or even third train and moved to a front place in the queue...but people quietly sneak ahead from behind me...quiet demeanor but sharp elbows

[CharlieH]

Typical Thai behavior, do as they do, as the saying goes "when in Rome...etc "

[Sateev]

The only thing I find more reprehensible than this behavior in (mostly young) Thais, is the behavior of those whose moral compass is relative and easily converted to Thai behavior. The guy who makes sure to press the 'Close' button is a perfect example. First to complain about it, but first to act the same way, as if he didn't know better. Life, by the common denominator.

I find that older Thais, perhaps of somewhat higher class, usually do hold the elevator, usually do say "Thank you", when I hold a door open for them, and generally have MUCH better manners than most of the Westerners I see here.

If I had to account for it, I'd say the trend is worldwide, particularly among the young, even in the upper classes. Maybe ESPECIALLY in the upper classes. Poor folks often have better manners than the more privileged among us.

So, yeah, go ahead, adopt the slovenly and coarse manners of those around you. See what kind of world we are headed for...

Or, set an example, and be part of the solution...nah.

[TomTao]

I have come across a mix, some rude queue jumpers, others polite who say thank you and also hold the door, it is not just the young, I have seen the older ones push in, especially in the bank, sometimes at the shopping center, I just remark loudly to my wife about how lacking in manners they are, that gets the wife started, not too long before they go to the back of the line saying sorry with a red faced smile, but then there are the thick skinned ones who simply will not move. The phenomonen is not just here, it is world wide, and increasingly so among the young.

[orchidlady]

I used to have this problem as I mostly use the MRT. I would have Thais walking,stepping on my toes- especially with stilettos trying to fit in the 6 inches in front of me so they could now be first in line. I admit i have big feet(but short of holding my foot perpendicular to the floor, exposing my sole to them(cultural no-no) they have to be out in front of me.

I wear doc marten's most of the time to support my back and protect my toes from the jarring of the never level sidewalks. I now try to get to the left or right of the person when I anticipate this movement or after it has happened.. on occasion I have stepped on their toes when they are too busy looking at their cell phones. I give them a big smile. I weigh more than them and with steel tip toes --you get the idea. When we end up standing on the train if there aren't enough seats...they don't stand on my toes like they do to someone else.

On occasion in line at cash register, I have asked the person what's the rush why do you need to get in front of us? The problem is the culture. The clerks would never say they were in front of you.

It is just like one sales clerk at Carrefour-(now big c express). She would wai me at almost waist level(before i knew the difference). One time I went with Thai friend who explained the meaning to me outside. Next time it happened I wai'd her back at same or lower level. Stopped the behavior and now she wais same as other customers.

Sometimes you need to call them out on this rude behavior. I would never do it in a drinking situation--don't need a fight.

I agree China is the worst. They are used to elbowing their way to get in front. I just did it back and no reaction.

[Gone]

Been here for 11 years now and when someone puts there crap on the counter in front of me I leave it there and push them out of the way and tell them "hen q dai mai" and if the cashier starts taking them first i raise hell and tell him that I am the next. I do speak Thai so that helps when insulting them but if not I would still push anyone who has stepped in front of me out of the way. They're rude to me, I'm rude back.

I don't put up with this "Thai Culture" crap any more. That went out in the 80's. I have as much right to be here as they do as I am a person.

Who cares what they think if you get rude back to them. Get over it and get on the dam_n train son.

No need to do rude things like pointing your feet, throwing money etc. of course but the pushing, shoving, serve me first thing can kiss my ass_istant.

[BookMan]

It's a rapidly changing world. Endless Advertisements and Movies and TV shows espousing and encouraging individuality and personal freedom and 'put yourself first' and 'you are number 1'! Facebook and Texting where every trivial action and event in life is commented on. These are part of the reasons why youth are increasingly narcissistic (as studies have shown).

However I don't think the line jumping issue is just the younger Thais. I don't even think it is just the Thais. Plenty of foreigners here also do it, queue jump or are rude in general. (Airports also seems to bring out the worst in all nationalities).

The social etiquette rules are certainly different here than in Australia, but I think you have to adapt a little. Rude people do exist everywhere.

As for the toilet. If it was urgent I would have stepped back in front.

[pumpum]

I am not referring to the normal type of "queue jumping" I have encountered in the west...what i usually see there is more along the lines of perhaps being ballsy enough to move into a space in an unorganized queue or taking advantage of some confusion in a crowd to claim someone else's spot. However, in the US, Europe - hell, even Latin America - I have possibly NEVER seen someone waltz to the front of an established long line and just plant themselves there as if it were their god-given right. In all my years I have NEVER seen someone confidently stride ahead of another in a grocery line when the groceries were already on the conveyer. I have even been to India...where lines were never even but it seemed like more of a function of the chaos and confusion, and there was usually quite good will towards other people. I have honestly never seen this particularly brazenly rude behavior until now in Thailand...so none of these comparisons stand, in my book.

[pumpum]

Correction - I have seen this type of brazenly rude queue jumping in the US - but done exclusively by thuggy teenagers.

[retiredaamt]

Their thinking is "Me First, Screw You".

[pumpum]

I did once smile, put my arm out and politey say, "Excuse me" and the young woman grimaced like I had farted in her face. That is why I wondered if it was indeed improper to stand up for yourself in these situations.

[Pseudolus]

On the MRT I just stand my ground, and if they cut in I cut back in front straight away.

On the train though I do have a little chuckle though at the ladies, usually 30+ who with head down push and force their way past you. One this morning made me laugh out loud because, being mid journey and knowing the Lad Prao to Ratchada 90 degree turn was coming up I didn't want to move too much lest I fell over. Her actions completely reminded me of my Labrador when I am hiding her ball from her, and she is wriggling and squiming about trying to get the ball from me. I stood my ground acting oblivious to her attempts at getting past me and then started laughing. The thing is, a little word even in Thai would be enough for me to move out of the way, but no. A week ago had a similar occasion with a lady who must have been 50; she actually tried to push me out of the way with her hand which did not move me an inch. She then pushed harder (busy train, she was trying to get deeper into the train, not out of it). i did not move again. The last time she was winding up for a really big push and just as she struck me, I leaned in towards her a little and she went bouncing back the other way almost ended up sitting on someone's lap; I guess the train must have turned at that point, and I said sorry with a smile.

It doesn't really annoy me as I find it funny. Lucky I do not get on the train much in a bad mood though.

[Pseudolus]

@Pumpum Never go to China if you are appalled by this.

[Nisa]

On the MRT I just stand my ground, and if they cut in I cut back in front straight away.

On the train though I do have a little chuckle though at the ladies, usually 30+ who with head down push and force their way past you. One this morning made me laugh out loud because, being mid journey and knowing the Lad Prao to Ratchada 90 degree turn was coming up I didn't want to move too much lest I fell over. Her actions completely reminded me of my Labrador when I am hiding her ball from her, and she is wriggling and squiming about trying to get the ball from me. I stood my ground acting oblivious to her attempts at getting past me and then started laughing. The thing is, a little word even in Thai would be enough for me to move out of the way, but no. A week ago had a similar occasion with a lady who must have been 50; she actually tried to push me out of the way with her hand which did not move me an inch. She then pushed harder (busy train, she was trying to get deeper into the train, not out of it). i did not move again. The last time she was winding up for a really big push and just as she struck me, I leaned in towards her a little and she went bouncing back the other way almost ended up sitting on someone's lap; I guess the train must have turned at that point, and I said sorry with a smile.

It doesn't really annoy me as I find it funny. Lucky I do not get on the train much in a bad mood though.

nice guy

[somo]

It is not just queing but navigating down a pavement people are constantly stepping out in front of walkers then just standing there. It seems like deliberate obstruction but isn't. It is a total disregard for others and thus very rude. This disregard also manifests itself on the road amongst drivers and results in a lot of accidents and deaths. There is nothing cultural about it just a lack of good manners or even awareness of others.

[MAN2SIN2BKK]

Odd, I've been here 11 years and haven't experienced the bad manners people are complaining about here; the only issue I have is the daily stock car race

[impulse]

@Pumpum Never go to China if you are appalled by this.

X 10. Try a few weeks in China and you'll long for the politeness of Thai society, even Thai drivers.

In China, I've actually left the groceries on the conveyor and walked out of the store when cashiers allow people to barge to the front and then ring them up first. Sadly, I've always later regretted being the richardhead.

Edited February 21, 2012 by impulse

[Nisa]

This has also happened to me at the supermarket, where someone tried to push in front of me and put their items on the conveyor belt when my items were already on there and beginning to be scanned by the checker.

Another version of this same phenomena occurs when someone walks straight into me instead of sharing a sidewalk space or when exiting a storefront or office whilst I am walking straight.

There are some people who seem oblivious to lines but there really isn't that many ... they are just hard to forget. There is nothing wrong with discreetly tapping the person on the shoulder and smiling to let them know what they just did and remind them you and others are there. In most circumstances they are just in their own world and will be a bit embarrassed over what they just did. What you shouldn't do is make a big deal out of it. The other Thais in line already view the line cutter as having a problem but you will be perceived as having the bigger problem if you let something minor like this get to you but again, nothing wrong with discreetly letting the person know with a smile ... think of trying to do it with the least way of letting the person know they made a mistake. If possible act like it was your fault for allowing them room to get ahead of you. Of course their are punks and druggies who you might be better off just ignoring regardless of what country you are.

On the MRT or BTS that is full, remember that people are trying to get more towards the middle of the train to allow more passengers to come on. This is proper procedure but I notice most farangs stand near the door or don't move towards the center of the trains. There is limited room to get around people and bumping is expected.

Walking on the sidewalk is a challenge because so many Thais tend to be in their own world and really don't pay attention to much beyond their own space. Most of the time you will see that people don't move aside until the very last minute. What makes things worse is their is no convention here in terms of what side of the side walk you should walk. The general rule of walk to the right or left depending on your countries traffic laws doesn't apply.

There are other factors involved too when entering/exiting the MRT, BTS, elevators or escalators. One is that a great many people did not grow up using these conveniences or fully understand the proper procedures or what may seem like common sense to us such as waiting for people to get off before boarding. Next time you are in the subway, stand and watch people go onto the escalator. Within a minute you will see some people come to a complete stop and wait to time their step before getting on as if they have little experience with such a device.

As for getting off the bus type situation you described, just get somebody's attention with a smile and eye contact and 9 times out of 10 they will let you in. You can get their attention by simply starting to move towards the isle. But there is nothing wrong with pushing your way into the line. Body contact is expected and taken as cues but there is absolutely no reason to shove. Remember too that they probably have people pushing them from the rear to keep moving forward.

Bottom line is don't take any of this personal as it is not an attack against you or is it anyone trying to show disrespect towards you. It is a combination of things that run from Thais not worrying about the little stuff to simply them being in their own world. You need not worry about bumping people or apologizing if you do unless you make eye contact and then a simple bow of the head and smile is more than enough because nobody is going to believe you bumped them on purpose. People expect you to do what is needed to take care of yourself in getting on and off public transportation.

Thais are some of the most generous people on the planet but some of these basic things that we believe are either common sense or basic politeness is not viewed the same by many. Thais don't generally express a lot of Thank You's or Excuse Me's as it is presumed nobody is trying to shove you but simply get around you. There is also an embarrassment/shy factor involved with this behavior too.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Nisa

[sbk]

Most the people standing in the middle of the BTS doors when i go to Bangkok are foreigners, but I dont' live there so my anecdotal evidence is only that every time I have seen it its been 90% foreigners.

As for staking your claim, sure but no need to be rude. A very friendly smile and a polite "gao queue" said loudly enough to embarrass the person usually works better than proving yourself to be as rude as that person is.

And Nisa, good explanation, its what I learned in Taiwan many years ago. Its certainly not personal, its just the way it is and if you take it personally then you are the only one who is getting the headache and blood pressure issues from walking around in a constant state of fury over perceived minor slights.

[Pseudolus]

On the MRT I just stand my ground, and if they cut in I cut back in front straight away.

On the train though I do have a little chuckle though at the ladies, usually 30+ who with head down push and force their way past you. One this morning made me laugh out loud because, being mid journey and knowing the Lad Prao to Ratchada 90 degree turn was coming up I didn't want to move too much lest I fell over. Her actions completely reminded me of my Labrador when I am hiding her ball from her, and she is wriggling and squiming about trying to get the ball from me. I stood my ground acting oblivious to her attempts at getting past me and then started laughing. The thing is, a little word even in Thai would be enough for me to move out of the way, but no. A week ago had a similar occasion with a lady who must have been 50; she actually tried to push me out of the way with her hand which did not move me an inch. She then pushed harder (busy train, she was trying to get deeper into the train, not out of it). i did not move again. The last time she was winding up for a really big push and just as she struck me, I leaned in towards her a little and she went bouncing back the other way almost ended up sitting on someone's lap; I guess the train must have turned at that point, and I said sorry with a smile.

It doesn't really annoy me as I find it funny. Lucky I do not get on the train much in a bad mood though.

nice guy

Thanks - I always knew it and you've perked me up in validating my Gandhi style approach to the assaults that occur on a regular basis.

[Pib]

Little courtesy in Thailand when it comes to anything that requires forming a line. It's pretty much like their driving...gaining that extra meter, gaining that second in time to get a ahead in the line on the road seems to be part of their up-bringing. Maybe the up-bringing taught them to always push toward the front of the line otherwise whatever is being handed-out will run-out if they are too far back in the line. The Land of Smiles does not mean everyone is always courteous; quite the contrary. Some degree of line jumping happens in all countries I expect, but Thais have it down to an art and science while being able to text at the same time.

[Gonsalviz]

Never been to Japan, have you? By comparison, Thais are nice.

[BigRick]

I am tall and sturdy most of the time I just don't let them move me and use my size back without being aggressive. Want to walk into me then you get a lesson in Physics 124kg vs 60kg <For some odd reason they always walk into my shoulder> Trust me they understand you just have to let them know you don't care because you understand they are the ones with a poor upbringing. But on a side note I also live in Thailand and I see Europeans especially Russians pulling this crap all the time. My favorite is the Thai idiots who stand in front of the escalator and talk I just walk through them and laugh. I had to give some Indian woman the stiff arm for knocking into my girlfriend like she was not there. People react when they realize they get a taste of their own medicine. Most of the Thais in my neighborhood do not tolerate line cutting especially if its me because I am always so nice and friendly. In fact nothing puts a smile on my face like someone pulling a "Invisible farang" routine and the stall owner pulling the "invisible Thai" routine. The look on their face is priceless like "what do you mean he was in line but I am Thai!" It pays to be nice where you live because I found the Thais where I live will go out of their way to reciprocate a smile and a kind gesture. As far as the grocery store goes I take no prisoners. They cut I just move their stuff into a basket if the cashier does nothing then I touch everything then leave it in a basket on the ground in front of the line. They take losing face so much different than us.

Edited February 22, 2012 by BigRick

[Nisa]

I am tall and sturdy most of the time I just don't let them move me and use my size back without being aggressive. Want to walk into me then you get a lesson in Physics 124kg vs 60kg <For some odd reason they always walk into my shoulder> Trust me they understand you just have to let them know you don't care because you understand they are the ones with a poor upbringing. But on a side note I also live in Thailand and I see Europeans especially Russians pulling this crap all the time. My favorite is the Thai idiots who stand in front of the escalator and talk I just walk through them and laugh. I had to give some Indian woman the stiff arm for knocking into my girlfriend like she was not there. People react when they realize they get a taste of their own medicine. Most of the Thais in my neighborhood do not tolerate line cutting especially if its me because I am always so nice and friendly. In fact nothing puts a smile on my face like someone pulling a "Invisible farang" routine and the stall owner pulling the "invisible Thai" routine. The look on their face is priceless like "what do you mean he was in line but I am Thai!" It pays to be nice where you live because I found the Thais where I live will go out of their way to reciprocate a smile and a kind gesture. As far as the grocery store goes I take no prisoners. They cut I just move their stuff into a basket if the cashier does nothing then I touch everything then leave it in a basket on the ground in front of the line. They take losing face so much different than us.

Yea, they certainly do (regarding losing face) because they don't make up issues in their own mind where they need to feel the need to get violent because somebody bumped their girlfriend in a crowded or high traffic area and they certainly don't feel they have been personally disrespected if somebody cuts in line and believe it is their duty to humiliate them or do they take personal offense to letting somebody try to squeeze pass and decide they simply will use their strength (if they are bigger) to refuse to allow the person room to pass. They certainly do take losing face much differently.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Nisa

[ExpatJ]

Classic grumpy old white farang man thread! I love these!

I say when it comes to people who push in queues- flog them! flog them all! OR even better, force them to open a small restaurant with dual pricing for farangs and have them deal with a daily stream of grumpy old farang men who get apoplectic trying to save 5 baht on their bowl of noodles.

Edited February 22, 2012 by ExpatJ