Thai Military Draft And Exemptions

[connda]

Both my wife and step-son have been on edge because he is eligible to be drafted into the Thai military this year.

I have my step-son enrolled in a IT technical program through the local technical school. Suddenly out of the blue, my wife tells me she wants to send her kid to University. The kid doesn't have the grades or the motivation to succeed in University. And neither one of them have any idea what he's going to study, or what sort of job he is preparing himself for. If he makes it though the technical school program, he's pretty well guaranteed a job in the IT industry. If he goes to Uni, I think he and his mother are setting him up for failure.

Then I started to think: Does the Thai government "waive" military service for 20 year old men who enter University? If the answer is "yes", this all makes sense. Does anyone know???

[stoneyboy]

Sounds like it would do him good,failing that flash the cash to guarantee the loosing colour.

[wana]

hes not bright enough or motivated to attend university ?

then he will more than likely be a candidate for a government position

welcome to thailand

[connda]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

[connda]

hes not bright enough or motivated to attend university ?

then he will more than likely be a candidate for a government position

welcome to thailand

Actually, if he can muddle his way thought to graduation, he could be a MP!

[arthurwait]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

Isn't the same in most countries ? The lower rungs for the poor/poorer people ?

[DP25]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

No it's not just a hi-so option. Anyone can avoid the draft by doing a cadet program, that can be done in high school or college, but that of course requires planning and commitment. He could have gotten out of it in high school if he was willing to do the work. University graduates can also volunteer and they only serve for 6 months, instead of taking a chance on the lottery which would give them 2 years.

[wana]

hes not bright enough or motivated to attend university ?

then he will more than likely be a candidate for a government position

welcome to thailand

Actually, if he can muddle his way thought to graduation, he could be a MP!

thats what i meant by government ,he could be a superstar there !

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't want to increase your stress level, but to make you aware, a lot of the guys inducted by draft into the army are getting sent to the meatgrinder in the South now. Someone I know was just mildly injured (ear damage) in the recent bombing of Narathiwat (4 guys died and others were more seriously injured). So it's not a good time to be an army cadet in Thailand, especially a draftee.

[connda]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

No it's not just a hi-so option. Anyone can avoid the draft by doing a cadet program, that can be done in high school or college, but that of course requires planning and commitment. He could have gotten out of it in high school if he was willing to do the work. University graduates can also volunteer and they only serve for 6 months, instead of taking a chance on the lottery which would give them 2 years.

Yeah, that really does explain it. I just found out about the cadet programs. If he and my wife have been so worried about this, why didn't he just go into the Cadet Program in Matayom? We're back to lack of motivation and planning. She won't talk to me directly about it -- I don't feel much in the way of responsibility either -- not my son, and quickly becoming not my problem.

In the five years I've know the kid, he hasn't said a full sentence to me. Even offered to tutor him in English. Wife says, "He so shy." But mom's been over protecting this kid all his life. He doesn't do chores, can't get him to take his own trash out to the trash can, I refuse so wife does it. Kid's never worked a day in his life. The kid's never been required to take any responsibility for his life or his actions. I don't support this "hands off" way of bringing up a kid. Heck, I worked from the time I could wash a car or push a mower. I worked from the time I was an adolescent: I wanted things my parents wouldn't buy, so I earned my own money. I've never seen her kid do anything but play on the computer and talk on the phone. Life's gonna give them a big wake-up call pretty soon. I'll pay the kid's tuition through tech school, but not university. And if he get's selected for the Army, he should go. If he didn't want to go, he should have gone into the Cadet Program while he was still in Matayom. Poor kid, maybe he gets lucky and doesn't pull the "you're drafted" number. Too bad, two years in the Army would make a man out of him -- something he is not right now.

[connda]

I don't want to increase your stress level, but to make you aware, a lot of the guys inducted by draft into the army are getting sent to the meatgrinder in the South now. Someone I know was just mildly injured (ear damage) in the recent bombing of Narathiwat (4 guys died and others were more seriously injured). So it's not a good time to be an army cadet in Thailand, especially a draftee.

If it was me, and I was that worried -- Thai Navy or Thai Air Force. Less likely to be put into harms way in those two services.

[connda]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

Isn't the same in most countries ? The lower rungs for the poor/poorer people ?

Yeah probably. I went into the military when the local economy crashed in my State. Otherwise I'd probably still be logging in the US North West. I've got no regrets.

[vtjforyou]

In countries like Thailand national service means cleaning toilets for free for 2 years, so who is stupid enough to go except crazy toilet cleaners or sons of soldiers...

[kennkate]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

Isn't the same in most countries ? The lower rungs for the poor/poorer people ?

My wifes son got drafted last year at the tender age of 21 Home every 2 weeks for somthing like 10 days and is ringing his mother crying because he does not want to go back.

I cannot see that it has in any way made him grow up.

I tell her at his age I was in the Middle East for almost 3 years No Mobile Phones then. I wrote home maybee once a month. was able to see another culture and looking back to that time it was the best thing I ever did. And 21 days leave per Year. She just says "You Farang no same Thai people"

"Yeah probably. I went into the military when the local economy crashed in my State. Otherwise I'd probably still be logging in the US North West. I've got no regrets."

Edited March 12, 2012 by kennkate

[Mossfinn]

Go into the search option.

Search question 'Draft'

Author samran

you will get the best answers there.

[samran]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

Sounds like you may have come across my advice on this forum on the ins and out of military service in Thailand.

Dunno though where your get the idea that "hi-so's" want to get out of the service. Do you even know what a hi-so is? Plenty of well off families see the military as an important thing and many kids from that service do go into it being commissioned officers etc.

To be honest, sounds like you have issues with your step son and wife more than anything else?

I also don't understand your hypocrisy. Presumably as an 'anti-liberal' you are all for individual choice, yet you go all socialistic by supporting compulsory military service. Bit of a contradiction there, no?

[Bakeman]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

No it's not just a hi-so option. Anyone can avoid the draft by doing a cadet program, that can be done in high school or college, but that of course requires planning and commitment. He could have gotten out of it in high school if he was willing to do the work. University graduates can also volunteer and they only serve for 6 months, instead of taking a chance on the lottery which would give them 2 years.

Yeah, that really does explain it. I just found out about the cadet programs. If he and my wife have been so worried about this, why didn't he just go into the Cadet Program in Matayom? We're back to lack of motivation and planning. She won't talk to me directly about it -- I don't feel much in the way of responsibility either -- not my son, and quickly becoming not my problem.

In the five years I've know the kid, he hasn't said a full sentence to me. Even offered to tutor him in English. Wife says, "He so shy." But mom's been over protecting this kid all his life. He doesn't do chores, can't get him to take his own trash out to the trash can, I refuse so wife does it. Kid's never worked a day in his life. The kid's never been required to take any responsibility for his life or his actions. I don't support this "hands off" way of bringing up a kid. Heck, I worked from the time I could wash a car or push a mower. I worked from the time I was an adolescent: I wanted things my parents wouldn't buy, so I earned my own money. I've never seen her kid do anything but play on the computer and talk on the phone. Life's gonna give them a big wake-up call pretty soon. I'll pay the kid's tuition through tech school, but not university. And if he get's selected for the Army, he should go. If he didn't want to go, he should have gone into the Cadet Program while he was still in Matayom. Poor kid, maybe he gets lucky and doesn't pull the "you're drafted" number. Too bad, two years in the Army would make a man out of him -- something he is not right now.

Not to be negative but just wait until you learn not only that he is unmotivated and pampered but that he will live with you the rest of his life. I mean the rest of your life.

[regine]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

No it's not just a hi-so option. Anyone can avoid the draft by doing a cadet program, that can be done in high school or college, but that of course requires planning and commitment. He could have gotten out of it in high school if he was willing to do the work. University graduates can also volunteer and they only serve for 6 months, instead of taking a chance on the lottery which would give them 2 years.

Lesson learned. Be prepared. IMO send your kid to lor dor to avoid future headaches.

OP's wife and step-son had 20+ years to prepare for this (both knew it was coming) but chose not to.

[Berkshire]

The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor.

Well that's how it is in the west, in America for sure.

[highchol]

If I may extend the debate to ask about kids that although born in Thailand, have not been through the Thai education system, Thai being only a second language. How would they fit in if conscripted?

[Soutpeel]

If I may extend the debate to ask about kids that although born in Thailand, have not been through the Thai education system, Thai being only a second language. How would they fit in if conscripted?

Assuming their Thai of course ?......they would have to cope, I speak of this from personal experience, I did 2 years national service, and the languge spoken in thearmy was my second language (not Thailand) and I wasnt much good at it to start with, but certainly after two years my language skills were much improved LOL

[dean999]

Yeah, that really does explain it. I just found out about the cadet programs. If he and my wife have been so worried about this, why didn't he just go into the Cadet Program in Matayom? We're back to lack of motivation and planning. She won't talk to me directly about it -- I don't feel much in the way of responsibility either -- not my son, and quickly becoming not my problem.

In the five years I've know the kid, he hasn't said a full sentence to me. Even offered to tutor him in English. Wife says, "He so shy." But mom's been over protecting this kid all his life. He doesn't do chores, can't get him to take his own trash out to the trash can, I refuse so wife does it. Kid's never worked a day in his life. The kid's never been required to take any responsibility for his life or his actions. I don't support this "hands off" way of bringing up a kid. Heck, I worked from the time I could wash a car or push a mower. I worked from the time I was an adolescent: I wanted things my parents wouldn't buy, so I earned my own money. I've never seen her kid do anything but play on the computer and talk on the phone. Life's gonna give them a big wake-up call pretty soon. I'll pay the kid's tuition through tech school, but not university. And if he get's selected for the Army, he should go. If he didn't want to go, he should have gone into the Cadet Program while he was still in Matayom. Poor kid, maybe he gets lucky and doesn't pull the "you're drafted" number. Too bad, two years in the Army would make a man out of him -- something he is not right now.

Sounds like you need to grow a pair and tell him to get his ass in the services. I think you'll find he loves it. You're stressing about nothing.

[katana]

Interesting video about the Thai Army/Navy lottery process as it happens in Muslim South Thailand which was posted up here before.

[4evermaat]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

No it's not just a hi-so option. Anyone can avoid the draft by doing a cadet program, that can be done in high school or college, but that of course requires planning and commitment. He could have gotten out of it in high school if he was willing to do the work. University graduates can also volunteer and they only serve for 6 months, instead of taking a chance on the lottery which would give them 2 years.

Yeah, that really does explain it. I just found out about the cadet programs. If he and my wife have been so worried about this, why didn't he just go into the Cadet Program in Matayom? We're back to lack of motivation and planning. She won't talk to me directly about it -- I don't feel much in the way of responsibility either -- not my son, and quickly becoming not my problem.

In the five years I've know the kid, he hasn't said a full sentence to me. Even offered to tutor him in English. Wife says, "He so shy." But mom's been over protecting this kid all his life. He doesn't do chores, can't get him to take his own trash out to the trash can, I refuse so wife does it. Kid's never worked a day in his life. The kid's never been required to take any responsibility for his life or his actions. I don't support this "hands off" way of bringing up a kid. Heck, I worked from the time I could wash a car or push a mower. I worked from the time I was an adolescent: I wanted things my parents wouldn't buy, so I earned my own money. I've never seen her kid do anything but play on the computer and talk on the phone. Life's gonna give them a big wake-up call pretty soon. I'll pay the kid's tuition through tech school, but not university. And if he get's selected for the Army, he should go. If he didn't want to go, he should have gone into the Cadet Program while he was still in Matayom. Poor kid, maybe he gets lucky and doesn't pull the "you're drafted" number. Too bad, two years in the Army would make a man out of him -- something he is not right now.

Not to be negative but just wait until you learn not only that he is unmotivated and pampered but that he will live with you the rest of his life. I mean the rest of your life.

Yes, you should make it clear to the wife where you stand. that son may manipulate the mother, but you dont have to join in if you dont want to.

They learn to play "mom and pop" real fast and will always turn to the person most likely to say yes.

One of my gf's brother drinks a lot, talks strong to his father, and avoided military service when he was called. He now fears moving away from home because of this. I said the best thing to do is come clean (and stop being so lazy)

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from TV android app.

[David48]

Interesting video about the Thai Army/Navy lottery process as it happens in Muslim South Thailand which was posted up here before.

Thanks for sharing that, interesting to watch.

[scorecard]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

No it's not just a hi-so option. Anyone can avoid the draft by doing a cadet program, that can be done in high school or college, but that of course requires planning and commitment. He could have gotten out of it in high school if he was willing to do the work. University graduates can also volunteer and they only serve for 6 months, instead of taking a chance on the lottery which would give them 2 years.

Yeah, that really does explain it. I just found out about the cadet programs. If he and my wife have been so worried about this, why didn't he just go into the Cadet Program in Matayom? We're back to lack of motivation and planning. She won't talk to me directly about it -- I don't feel much in the way of responsibility either -- not my son, and quickly becoming not my problem.

In the five years I've know the kid, he hasn't said a full sentence to me. Even offered to tutor him in English. Wife says, "He so shy." But mom's been over protecting this kid all his life. He doesn't do chores, can't get him to take his own trash out to the trash can, I refuse so wife does it. Kid's never worked a day in his life. The kid's never been required to take any responsibility for his life or his actions. I don't support this "hands off" way of bringing up a kid. Heck, I worked from the time I could wash a car or push a mower. I worked from the time I was an adolescent: I wanted things my parents wouldn't buy, so I earned my own money. I've never seen her kid do anything but play on the computer and talk on the phone. Life's gonna give them a big wake-up call pretty soon. I'll pay the kid's tuition through tech school, but not university. And if he get's selected for the Army, he should go. If he didn't want to go, he should have gone into the Cadet Program while he was still in Matayom. Poor kid, maybe he gets lucky and doesn't pull the "you're drafted" number. Too bad, two years in the Army would make a man out of him -- something he is not right now.

,

Not intending to criticize what you just said, but perhaps worth some thought - Is the kid totally to blame for his laziness, etc?

I equate this, to some extent, with an extended part of my Thai family.

Parents had a daughter, and spoiled her rotten, (as did grandparents both sided, every aunt and uncle, etc.) At 8.5 years old she is still fed spoon by spoon by her mother, can't go to sleep without someone else in the bed, mother takes her to school and mother carries her bag and deposits it at her desk in the class room / same to go home, has never been tasked to do anything in the house.

Then, at 8.5 years old there's a second baby. The first one almost ignored by all who are doting over the new baby. First one now just dumped at the school gate and yelled at continuously to do chores etc., and she is reacting by being stubborn, plus she's developed a nervous eye twitch.

Mother, grandparents, aunts & uncles how very vocal that first one is a very naughty girl. Father trying (pretty much in vain) to make all concerned realize that the spoiled (first) child didn't spoil herself, she is to a major extent a result of the actions of the adults in the family.

(Note: I'm not suggesting this scenario is specific / exclusive to Thailand. It happens again and again in all countries.)

Edited March 14, 2012 by scorecard

[samran]

Many thanks to David48 who PM'ed me and asked me to relink an old post where I showed moments of lucid thought:

From: http://www.thaivisa....y-conscription/

Ways of getting out of military duty:

If living in Thailand:

- Cadets can be done in high school or university too avoid going into the draft. Three years must be done to avoid the draft entirely.

- University education can also be done to defer the draft.

- Those with a university education can volunteer on drafting day, and only have to serve out six months. This is a common way for many families who either don't want to pay the money, or want their sons to have some sort of exposure to the army (this option is fairly common in some hi-so circles)

- You can take your chances with the picking a ball out of the hat. Wrong coloured ball, and you are in for 2 years. Odds for getting chosen depend on how many people have actually volunteered in that disctrict. If the intake is filled by volunteers, no people will be conscripted

For those who move back to Thailand after 30, then then you are in the clear. The army rejects all applicants over 30, as my army papers here show clearly.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a50475-...letter.JPG.html

Edited March 14, 2012 by samran

[softgeorge]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

As an ex soldier I agree with you, military service never harms anyone and an ex service person has no problems finding employment outside. If Australia had compulsory military service it would get a lot of these lazy dole budging, tree hugging baffoons out of bed every morning. Instead of whinning about thier government handouts they may just contribute to the community that is supporting them.

[samran]

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

As an ex soldier I agree with you, military service never harms anyone and an ex service person has no problems finding employment outside. If Australia had compulsory military service it would get a lot of these lazy dole budging, tree hugging baffoons out of bed every morning. Instead of whinning about thier government handouts they may just contribute to the community that is supporting them.

Indeed, spending two years at Puckapunyal shaving 20% off my IQ and subjecting myself to regular military hazing something I sure could have done with. I mean, who needs university?

And as we know, Dept of Defence are the last to the table when needing government hand outs. Not a closed shop at all. No sir-ee

Oh, the hypocrisy! Or is it superior military logic we have here?

Edited March 14, 2012 by samran

[Kwasaki]

If it was me, and I was that worried -- Thai Navy or Thai Air Force. Less likely to be put into harms way in those two services.

I don't think that choice would be possible for your wife's son.

Never mind. Just answered my own question. University students are exempted from the draft, or more correctly, deferred. After graduation, they can volunteer for a six month program that looks something like a reserve program. It's the Hi-So option.

It makes sense now. The security of this country rests on the backs of the sons of the poor. Hi-Sos buy there way out, or send their kids to University.

Yeah, I think I'd be wearing a red shirt too if I was a poor Thai.

But with that said, I'm also ex-military too. I personally think every kid between 18 to 25 should be required to put two year into the military of the country that they are a citizen of. It builds character. Every country has the right to a strong defensive military.

OK, now flame away. I sure I'm going to hear from every liberal, anti-gun, anti-military, tree-hugging liberal on the forum. Fine! Enjoy.

My wifes son got drafted last year at the tender age of 21 Home every 2 weeks for somthing like 10 days and is ringing his mother crying because he does not want to go back.

I cannot see that it has in any way made him grow up.

I tell her at his age I was in the Middle East for almost 3 years No Mobile Phones then. I wrote home maybee once a month. was able to see another culture and looking back to that time it was the best thing I ever did. And 21 days leave per Year. She just says "You Farang no same Thai people"

"Yeah probably. I went into the military when the local economy crashed in my State. Otherwise I'd probably still be logging in the US North West. I've got no regrets."

now I'm confused, what all this. ??