UK pensions

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

The overwhelming message from discussions with the consortium this week is that we (Brits in Thailand/Rest of the World, inc those not yet old enough to draw state pensions) should join the Canadian and/or Australian groups and keep an eye on their FB, Twitter etc for details of current developments.

 

Contrary to the negativity that often appears here there is in fact a fair amount going on but they need support as outlined in their publications & it's in all of our interests to do whatever we can to assist instead of sitting back and letting the same few people who aren't getting any younger get on with it.

 

 

I don't know which of these groups is the most active but  geography would suggest that we join the Australian group.

I certainly commend the course of action suggested in this and your previous post. Doom and gloom comments contribute nothing to the objective of unfreezing overseas pensions and simply serve to discourage those who might add their support.

 

I see from the latest news updates that the Tories are proposing to means test the Winter Fuel Allowance thereby restricting its payment to wealthier pensioners but in Scotland  their will be no means testing. What a shambles of a policy ? Why don't they award a free beer allowance to OAP's in Scotland.

 

[rockingrobin]

15 minutes ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

I don't know which of these groups is the most active but  geography would suggest that we join the Australian group.

I certainly commend the course of action suggested in this and your previous post. Doom and gloom comments contribute nothing to the objective of unfreezing overseas pensions and simply serve to discourage those who might add their support.

 

I see from the latest news updates that the Tories are proposing to means test the Winter Fuel Allowance thereby restricting its payment to wealthier pensioners but in Scotland  their will be no means testing. What a shambles of a policy ? Why don't they award a free beer allowance to OAP's in Scotland.

 

I suspect the reason for the shambolic winter fuel payment between Scotland/England is due to benefits being a devolved issue due to come in effect 2019. 

[evadgib]

@Rajab Al Zarahni

Quote

I don't know which of these groups is the most active but  geography would suggest that we join the Australian group.

TBH I'm in both. I want this sorted before I reach state pension age & that won't happen without support from these born 1955-85 who can see what's happening to the 550k currently caught up in it.

 

I'm 56.

Edited May 20, 2017 by evadgib

[evadgib]

On 5/17/2017 at 8:56 PM, rockingrobin said:

This is just a rehash of the fake e-mail doing the rounds a number of years ago. .

 

As is the 'Bloke-in-a-pub' nonsense in the letters section of the Nation seen this evening. Instead of scaremongering or recycling info that has long since been superseded the people peddling it should sign up and offer their support to the people that are actually getting on with it.

 

https://www.facebook.com/pensionjustice/

Edited May 20, 2017 by evadgib

[nontabury]

19 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

I suspect the reason for the shambolic winter fuel payment between Scotland/England is due to benefits being a devolved issue due to come in effect 2019. 

I think it's more to do with the Scots being offered this freebie, and understandably accepting it. While the people who will mostly finance this policy, the people of England,Northern Ireland and Wales are stupid enough to go along with it.

[evadgib]

The 'Winter Fuel' lottery is blown out of the water by the revelation that there are places in England, Wales & Northern Ireland that are every bit as cold as any they hope to appease living north of Hadrians wall; furthermore I see no difference between pensioner A trying to keep warm in Brecon to pensioner B trying to keep cool in LoS on the very same day on a dramatically reduced income.

Edited May 21, 2017 by evadgib

[Flustered]

The problem with the winter fuel allowance is that it started off as a Gordon Brown bribe and was only intended for one year. But having been given, it was then political suicide to stop it.Also we have the OAP bus pass, another bribe.

 

The country managed for thousands of years without a winter fuel allowance or free bus pass so the fairest thing to do would be to scrap them and that will never happen. 

 

My opinion which will probably upset some is that the winter fuel allowance should only be given to UK resident lower tax bracket and the bus pass have an annual charge of £25.

 

 

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

5 hours ago, Flustered said:

The problem with the winter fuel allowance is that it started off as a Gordon Brown bribe and was only intended for one year. But having been given, it was then political suicide to stop it.Also we have the OAP bus pass, another bribe.

 

The country managed for thousands of years without a winter fuel allowance or free bus pass so the fairest thing to do would be to scrap them and that will never happen. 

 

My opinion which will probably upset some is that the winter fuel allowance should only be given to UK resident lower tax bracket and the bus pass have an annual charge of £25.

 

 

I am fascinated  as to why someone with your distinctive and thought provoking views has found comfort on this forum.

How do you feel about pensions generally and the index linking of pensions ? In particular, do you believe that the freezing of pensions for those who chose to retire to certain countries is an injustice ? After all, as your comment correctly suggests, these are things the country managed without for thousands of years.

Additionally, it would be most helpful to know your view about prescription charges for pensioners. Can I take that you would like to see pensioners paying the going rate like everyone else ? 

And what of the free TV licence for the over 75's. What you like this to be withdrawn ? 

[Eff1n2ret]

5 hours ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

I am fascinated  as to why someone with your distinctive and thought provoking views has found comfort on this forum.

How do you feel about pensions generally and the index linking of pensions ? In particular, do you believe that the freezing of pensions for those who chose to retire to certain countries is an injustice ? After all, as your comment correctly suggests, these are things the country managed without for thousands of years.

Additionally, it would be most helpful to know your view about prescription charges for pensioners. Can I take that you would like to see pensioners paying the going rate like everyone else ? 

And what of the free TV licence for the over 75's. What you like this to be withdrawn ? 

I'd say you are justified in picking on Flustered's argument, because one can't really select a point in the past and say "let's reset to that." But F is correct in saying that benefits like the winter fuel allowance and bus pass were indiscriminately dished out by Gordon Brown to overcome hostility and derision when the proposed increase one year on the old age pension turned out to be about 85pence/week.

 

So they raid a contingency fund to get over a temporary political difficulty, and in a few short years a "perk" becomes an entitlement. I would agree with F that £25 a year would be an extremely modest charge for a bus pass for those who wanted one. The proposal to means-test the winter fuel allowance is probably less efficient than making it taxable. Although they would only collect a proportion of the total paid, at least it wouldn't incur the cost of means-testing.

[i claudius]

The truth of the matter is ,that if the British pension gave you a decent living ,you would not need the winter fuel allowance etc ,but it doesnt despite them going on how rich pensioners are , yes some are ,that is if you were in say the police ,or like a relative of mine in the education system and now retire on 4/5ths of their last wage ,but most of us were not so, linked with the fact us here in Thailand get our pension frozen ,we do not get a decent living wage ,

Also to those of you who hope that by sending in petitions etc to get our pensions unfrozen ,well pigs will fly first , they are looking for ways to cut pensions ,not upgrade them ,also i am a Tory ,but as May has no competition she can do as she pleases ,even if she loses ,lots of pensioner votes her lead is so great and the opposition so bad she can do as she pleases .

Myself ,i was lucky i had a house to sell and a wife with a good job , so life is not so hard ,but for those in the future who do not have that God help them ,because the state wont .

[evadgib]

....all the more reason why the younger, healthier, computer savvy group in the 40-60 age bracket should be actively encouraged to get involved then Claud! HMG will eventually settle for a 'one size fits all' but only if the pressure intensifies.

 

   RE Bus passes; If pensioners are made to pay for them HMG can reasonably be expected to lift any 'off peak' restrictions that currently apply.

[Flustered]

23 hours ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

I am fascinated  as to why someone with your distinctive and thought provoking views has found comfort on this forum.

How do you feel about pensions generally and the index linking of pensions ? In particular, do you believe that the freezing of pensions for those who chose to retire to certain countries is an injustice ? After all, as your comment correctly suggests, these are things the country managed without for thousands of years.

Additionally, it would be most helpful to know your view about prescription charges for pensioners. Can I take that you would like to see pensioners paying the going rate like everyone else ? 

And what of the free TV licence for the over 75's. What you like this to be withdrawn ? 

Yes, I think that if people can afford to pay they should. There are far too many handouts to those who do not need them.

 

Prescriptions: That is an area that needs totally overhauling. Any item that can be purchased over the counter should not be on prescription. Items like paracetamol cost almost 10 times as much on prescription as they do over the counter. It is the way the NHS do their purchasing. Aspirin is cheaper over the counter as are many other items. I see no problem with anyone who is on higher tax bracket having to pay, pensioner or not. Our widowed neighbour who we look in on and help out has more unused prescription medicines in her drawers than Boots have in their warehouse. She is reasonably well off but this is a classic example of "it's free so I ask for them".

 

Pensions: A double lock is more than sufficient. Pensions should be on a simple inflation linked rise. And as pensioners, we have different purchasing/living requirements to families so a pensioners cost of living index should be set up. Freezing of pensions when living in other countries can be looked at in different ways. there is an argument that says that as you are spending your money in another country the UK do not get the benefit of it. However, the majority of pension annuities pay UK tax so there is a trade off. Obviously I would be better off if the State pension were to rise in line with the UK but I have factored in the fact that it will be frozen. I am not complaining as I know what to expect and have made a qualified decision. Do I think it should be frozen? a hesitant yes.

 

TV licenses: I think that the BBC should be commercial and there not be any TV license. It is outdated and not fit for purpose. Let the BBC compete on equal terms. But all being equal, I think that over 75s should pay the license fee as well as full council tax.

 

As you can see, I do not believe in a free dinner for anyone and that the individual should take responsibility for themselves. This way, there would be more money in the pot to help those who do need it. I don't need the winter fuel allowance or free travel on the buses and did not ask for them. They were given out as a universal credit by Gordon Brown as a bribe for votes and no party has the courage to rescind them.

 

Finally, it's not comfort in this forum I seek but the other points of view. What purpose would a forum have if different points of view could not be put forward and discussed. Too many good FMs are bullied off from threads because groups gang up on them for having a different view. The more views the better informed we all become.

 

Nothing to do with this thread but you asked in a courteous way and I hope I have replied in one.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Flustered

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

15 hours ago, Flustered said:

Yes, I think that if people can afford to pay they should. There are far too many handouts to those who do not need them.

 

Prescriptions: That is an area that needs totally overhauling. Any item that can be purchased over the counter should not be on prescription. Items like paracetamol cost almost 10 times as much on prescription as they do over the counter. It is the way the NHS do their purchasing. Aspirin is cheaper over the counter as are many other items. I see no problem with anyone who is on higher tax bracket having to pay, pensioner or not. Our widowed neighbour who we look in on and help out has more unused prescription medicines in her drawers than Boots have in their warehouse. She is reasonably well off but this is a classic example of "it's free so I ask for them".

 

Pensions: A double lock is more than sufficient. Pensions should be on a simple inflation linked rise. And as pensioners, we have different purchasing/living requirements to families so a pensioners cost of living index should be set up. Freezing of pensions when living in other countries can be looked at in different ways. there is an argument that says that as you are spending your money in another country the UK do not get the benefit of it. However, the majority of pension annuities pay UK tax so there is a trade off. Obviously I would be better off if the State pension were to rise in line with the UK but I have factored in the fact that it will be frozen. I am not complaining as I know what to expect and have made a qualified decision. Do I think it should be frozen? a hesitant yes.

 

TV licenses: I think that the BBC should be commercial and there not be any TV license. It is outdated and not fit for purpose. Let the BBC compete on equal terms. But all being equal, I think that over 75s should pay the license fee as well as full council tax.

 

As you can see, I do not believe in a free dinner for anyone and that the individual should take responsibility for themselves. This way, there would be more money in the pot to help those who do need it. I don't need the winter fuel allowance or free travel on the buses and did not ask for them. They were given out as a universal credit by Gordon Brown as a bribe for votes and no party has the courage to rescind them.

 

Finally, it's not comfort in this forum I seek but the other points of view. What purpose would a forum have if different points of view could not be put forward and discussed. Too many good FMs are bullied off from threads because groups gang up on them for having a different view. The more views the better informed we all become.

 

Nothing to do with this thread but you asked in a courteous way and I hope I have replied in one.

 

 

I would always support someone like yourself who wishes to exchange comments in a civilized and courteous manner, however I see you in the same way as someone who joined the Catholic church to become a christian because he didn't believe in god.

What I think we share is a common view that it would be better to abolish all allowances and additions to the State pension in favor of a higher pension payment.

If the State pension was frozen at its rate of instigation for all pensioners then although harsh, I feel it would be equitable. Everyone, after all, would be treated equally badly as against the present system of only applying detriment to some.

My grievance is not with the freezing of pensions in principle, rather it is with the government for failing to communicate this policy to those affected at the relevant time and to apply the policy, arbitrarily and in defiance of logic, only to people who reside in certain countries.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[Flustered]

2 hours ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

 

My grievance is not with the freezing of pensions in principle, rather it is with the government for failing to communicate this policy to those affected at the relevant time and to apply the policy, arbitrarily and in defiance of logic, only to people who reside in certain countries.

My understanding of this and going by my own pension details is that everything is explained in the accompanying "blurb".

 

When you write to the DWP telling them you are becoming a non resident and asking for a pension statement, they tell you that the pension will be frozen in certain countries.

 

Onus is on the individual to check their pension status.

 

i am not actually saying what the pension should or should not be. My problem is that I am a pragmatist and only work on what the current rules and regulations are. This way, I am not liable to be disappointed or ecstatic over what will or will not be. Boring I know but it keeps my blood pressure low.

[nontabury]

15 minutes ago, Flustered said:

My understanding of this and going by my own pension details is that everything is explained in the accompanying "blurb".

 

When you write to the DWP telling them you are becoming a non resident and asking for a pension statement, they tell you that the pension will be frozen in certain countries.

 

Onus is on the individual to check their pension status.

 

i am not actually saying what the pension should or should not be. My problem is that I am a pragmatist and only work on what the current rules and regulations are. This way, I am not liable to be disappointed or ecstatic over what will or will not be. Boring I know but it keeps my blood pressure low.

That's not correct. When I moved here permanently, I had no idea of this unfair policy. How the hell was I supposed to know. What I did after living here for a couple of years, I contacted DWP telling them where I now live. They just suggested that I pay two more years extra contributions, so giving me 44yrs.Again no mention of this unfair policy.

  Do you think that if a private insurance company such as Standard Life, had hidden such a clause in their policy, there would't have been an uproar. They'd have been taken to the court by the government itself, accused of mis-selling.

 I did have a pension policy with Commercial Union, they were forced to pay me and thousands of others a fairly large amount, not due to them keeping something quite/secret. But due to the way the policy had been written. Nobody picked it up,until the DWP noticed it.

[Flustered]

Just to understand. At the time you moved overseas, you were not eligible for a state pension. When but they suggested you make two years more payments to make up the  you were of age, you informed them that you were a non resident and asked for a pension statement but they asked you for two years more payments to make up the full pension. At no time did they actually give you a detailed pension statement as they are required to do by law?

 

When I asked for and received my pension statement, it was accompanied by a booklet explaining all about payments and overseas area where it would continue to be paid in full (thus by omission those countries where it would not be).

 

Government departments will often only answer asked questions and not unasked ones. If you did not ask for a pension statement for a non resident living in Thailand, the DWP may not have understood your needs.

 

Doesn't help you of course but it would explain your situation.

[evadgib]

How can someone 10-15 years short of pension age know for certain where they'll be when they reach it? 

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

How can someone 10-15 years short of pension age know for certain where they'll be when they reach it? 

There's the rub. we do not know how old people are and assume that anyone commenting on pensions is a pensioner or will soon be one.

 

I would not expect anyone who is 50 to be complaining they did not know that the UK state pension was frozen for those in Thailand. They obviously know now and as you say, in 15 years who knows where they will be?

[nontabury]

12 hours ago, Flustered said:

Just to understand. At the time you moved overseas, you were not eligible for a state pension. When but they suggested you make two years more payments to make up the  you were of age, you informed them that you were a non resident and asked for a pension statement but they asked you for two years more payments to make up the full pension. At no time did they actually give you a detailed pension statement as they are required to do by law?

 

When I asked for and received my pension statement, it was accompanied by a booklet explaining all about payments and overseas area where it would continue to be paid in full (thus by omission those countries where it would not be).

 

Government departments will often only answer asked questions and not unasked ones. If you did not ask for a pension statement for a non resident living in Thailand, the DWP may not have understood your needs.

 

Doesn't help you of course but it would explain your situation.

But I did ask for a pension statement. Again I never received any booklet from them. Was I treated differently from other pensioners, I don't think so,certainly not from other pensioners who where,or were about to live in certain countries.

 

[dick dasterdly]

On 5/21/2017 at 9:48 PM, Flustered said:

The problem with the winter fuel allowance is that it started off as a Gordon Brown bribe and was only intended for one year. But having been given, it was then political suicide to stop it.Also we have the OAP bus pass, another bribe.

 

The country managed for thousands of years without a winter fuel allowance or free bus pass so the fairest thing to do would be to scrap them and that will never happen. 

 

My opinion which will probably upset some is that the winter fuel allowance should only be given to UK resident lower tax bracket and the bus pass have an annual charge of £25.

 

 

I agree with everything except an annual charge of 25 sterling for the bus pass.

 

The wealthy don't use buses, and so it is only likely to affect the poor?

[dick dasterdly]

On 5/22/2017 at 3:46 AM, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

I am fascinated  as to why someone with your distinctive and thought provoking views has found comfort on this forum.

How do you feel about pensions generally and the index linking of pensions ? In particular, do you believe that the freezing of pensions for those who chose to retire to certain countries is an injustice ? After all, as your comment correctly suggests, these are things the country managed without for thousands of years.

Additionally, it would be most helpful to know your view about prescription charges for pensioners. Can I take that you would like to see pensioners paying the going rate like everyone else ? 

And what of the free TV licence for the over 75's. What you like this to be withdrawn ? 

Restrict all the additional benefits (e.g. bus pass/winter allowance/free prescriptions/free TV licence) to those falling within (or below) the lowest tax rate?

[dick dasterdly]

On 5/22/2017 at 10:18 AM, i claudius said:

The truth of the matter is ,that if the British pension gave you a decent living ,you would not need the winter fuel allowance etc ,but it doesnt despite them going on how rich pensioners are , yes some are ,that is if you were in say the police ,or like a relative of mine in the education system and now retire on 4/5ths of their last wage ,but most of us were not so, linked with the fact us here in Thailand get our pension frozen ,we do not get a decent living wage ,

Also to those of you who hope that by sending in petitions etc to get our pensions unfrozen ,well pigs will fly first , they are looking for ways to cut pensions ,not upgrade them ,also i am a Tory ,but as May has no competition she can do as she pleases ,even if she loses ,lots of pensioner votes her lead is so great and the opposition so bad she can do as she pleases .

Myself ,i was lucky i had a house to sell and a wife with a good job , so life is not so hard ,but for those in the future who do not have that God help them ,because the state wont .

Agree entirely that if the state pension was sufficient, there would be no need for winter fuel allowance etc.  But, its not - hence the 'add on' benefits.

 

Retired police receive a very good 'government' pension and, of course, can claim the state pension once they are old enough - and perhaps the police pension is 4/5ths - but I doubt it.

 

Its certainly not for 'ordinary' education staff!  IIRC, my hubbies teacher pension was 50% after 40 years service (although it could have been 2/3rds)?  I gather its changed nowadays and based on 'average earnings'?

 

I'm one of the lucky generation that is able to enjoy 2/3rds non-contributory final company salary pension schemes (for one period of employment in my case).  First time I've heard of 4/5ths for ordinary employees!

 

In short, I'm very tired of the exaggerated beliefs about government pensions for ordinary employees.....

[Flustered]

23 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree with everything except an annual charge of 25 sterling for the bus pass.

 

The wealthy don't use buses, and so it is only likely to affect the poor?

Use a bus in our area in the summer and you cannot get on for wealthy pensioners who are taking full advantage of the service.

 

Those living in Hull spend the day travelling the coast to Scarborough, having lunch then returning. People living in Scarborough take the bus to Leeds and people in Leeds to Scarborough.  People living on the coast travel to Hull and Beverley for the day so the buses are full of wealthy pensioners on their coach trip around the country/seaside.

 

I hate the bus but my wife loves it and we can afford to drive by car anywhere.

 

Do what they did before, limit the bus pass to local areas rather than across country.

 

I think you underestimate how much money pensioners have. It costs an average of £20+/person to visit the Spa theatre at Bridlington (paid for out of council tax)  but the audience is mainly made up of pensioners.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Flustered said:

Use a bus in our area in the summer and you cannot get on for wealthy pensioners who are taking full advantage of the service.

 

Those living in Hull spend the day travelling the coast to Scarborough, having lunch then returning. People living in Scarborough take the bus to Leeds and people in Leeds to Scarborough.  People living on the coast travel to Hull and Beverley for the day so the buses are full of wealthy pensioners on their coach trip around the country/seaside.

 

I hate the bus but my wife loves it and we can afford to drive by car anywhere.

 

Do what they did before, limit the bus pass to local areas rather than across country.

 

I think you underestimate how much money pensioners have. It costs an average of £20+/person to visit the Spa theatre at Bridlington (paid for out of council tax)  but the audience is mainly made up of pensioners.

Fair enough.  I grew up and lived in Southern England (in or around London), and the demographics are obviously entirely different.

[Flustered]

Don't forget Dick, pensioners are great actors, they love to plead poverty while looking at how well the stocks and shares are doing.

 

Just going out to the food bank...(now that's another story).

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

9 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Use a bus in our area in the summer and you cannot get on for wealthy pensioners who are taking full advantage of the service.

 

Those living in Hull spend the day travelling the coast to Scarborough, having lunch then returning. People living in Scarborough take the bus to Leeds and people in Leeds to Scarborough.  People living on the coast travel to Hull and Beverley for the day so the buses are full of wealthy pensioners on their coach trip around the country/seaside.

 

I hate the bus but my wife loves it and we can afford to drive by car anywhere.

 

Do what they did before, limit the bus pass to local areas rather than across country.

 

I think you underestimate how much money pensioners have. It costs an average of £20+/person to visit the Spa theatre at Bridlington (paid for out of council tax)  but the audience is mainly made up of pensioners.

Out of genuine interest, what income, in your view, constitutes a wealthy pensioner ? 

[Flustered]

5 minutes ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

Out of genuine interest, what income, in your view, constitutes a wealthy pensioner ? 

Easy question, easy answer and to quote someone far greater than I.

 

Mr  Micawber's famous, and oft-quoted, recipe for happiness: "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

 

Anyone who has surplus after spending on essentials is wealthy. Wealth is relative.

 

 

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

3 hours ago, Flustered said:

Easy question, easy answer and to quote someone far greater than I.

 

Mr  Micawber's famous, and oft-quoted, recipe for happiness: "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

 

Anyone who has surplus after spending on essentials is wealthy. Wealth is relative.

 

 

 

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

An article I read today described those with pension income greater than £38000 a year  as "Platinum pensioners". At what level of income would members describe a pensioner as wealthy ?

If we argue that there should be a reduced entitled to pensioner perks for wealthy pensioners then we need to agree some common figure for who is wealthy ?

 

 

http://www.aol.co.uk/money/2017/05/22/platinum-pensioners-splashing-out-on-rock-star-lifestyle/

Edited May 24, 2017 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[Flustered]

54 minutes ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

An article I read today described those with pension income greater than £38000 a year  as "Platinum pensioners". At what level of income would members describe a pensioner as wealthy ?

If we argue that there should be a reduced entitled to pensioner perks for wealthy pensioners then we need to agree some common figure for who is wealthy ?

 

 

http://www.aol.co.uk/money/2017/05/22/platinum-pensioners-splashing-out-on-rock-star-lifestyle/

You cannot put a figure on wealth or income.

 

What is wealthy to you may be poverty to someone else. What is wealthy in the Yemen is poverty in America. 

 

Wealth is happiness in not having debt and living within your means. If you have surplus, you are wealthy.