UK pensions

[sandyf]

11 minutes ago, pastprime said:

The whole exercise of paying pensions,especially frozen/up rated one is buried under a mound of gobbledygook,what could be simpler than doing away with it all,and just paying it. agree Pension credit needs monitoring,but then they have not paid into the kitty,just do away with it all, a level playing field

  One thing does stand out,Brexit is def on the cards and a hard one, it will happen,but those UK citizens living in the EU will still be unfrozen at days end

"is buried under a mound of gobbledygook"

About as good a description as I have seen but you need to remember that the state pension is a minor item in the spaghetti surrounding social security benefits. No dispute it is financially significant but fairly simplistic in administration compared to the other benefits on offer and unfortunately they have all been historically intertwined.

[evadgib]

 

[evadgib]

John Duffy, the chairman of the Consortium of International British Pensioners, who lives in Antigua, said: “The next step of the campaign is to take this to the High Court.

“We are in discussions with leading legal experts and getting advice on a challenge.”

He said a previous legal challenge had failed because it focussed on Article 15 of the Human Rights Act which focuses on depriving people of their nationality.

The new challenge is set to focus on the right to family life in Article 8 with many pensioners moving abroad to be close to family members.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1040563/pension-scandal-victim-work-and-pension?fbclid=IwAR1snUZYebzkn4lyXfc_HLy_nZBQRDcCG1cKueVCyPPUcCLCrVHeMcD6FN8

Edited November 12, 2018 by evadgib

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

John Duffy, the chairman of the Consortium of International British Pensioners, who lives in Antigua, said: “The next step of the campaign is to take this to the High Court.

“We are in discussions with leading legal experts and getting advice on a challenge.”

He said a previous legal challenge had failed because it focussed on Article 15 of the Human Rights Act which focuses on depriving people of their nationality.

The new challenge is set to focus on the right to family life in Article 8 with many pensioners moving abroad to be close to family members.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1040563/pension-scandal-victim-work-and-pension?fbclid=IwAR1snUZYebzkn4lyXfc_HLy_nZBQRDcCG1cKueVCyPPUcCLCrVHeMcD6FN8

The Carson case was under Article ,1 , 14 and 8 , not 15.

Article 8 was inadmissible due to it not being raised in the domestic courts prior to the Grand Chamber.

 

[evadgib]

...all the more reason to try again ????

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

 

A DSS Memorandum to the Social Security Committee in 1996 explained the role of reciprocal social security agreements:

 

16. Reciprocal social security agreements are not entered into solely with a view to paying annual up-rating increases to UK pensioners living abroad. They are not strictly necessary for that purpose as up-rating can be achieved through UK domestic legislation…

 

The following has been extracted from the House of Commons Library: Briefing paper: CBP-01497: Frozen Pensions Overseas: 07.08.2018: Item: 1:2  Reciprocal Agreements:

 

In 2013, the Government said it had received requests for reciprocal agreements or representations on up-rating from a number of countries: In recent times, there have been requests from Columbia (2008), Mongolia (2007), Thailand (2010), Uruguay (2011) and Brazil (2011). In recent months the Government has received representations from both Australia and Canada in which they raised the issue of up-rating the UK State Pension. Those two countries represent by far the largest proportion of recipients in countries where the UK state pension is not index-linked and indexation would present a considerable cost to the Exchequer, particularly considering the wide disparity in the number of pensioners involved. The Government has therefore informed the Australian and Canadian governments that it will not be opening formal discussions on this policy.

 

Please note that in the case of Thailand it is not the Thai government that won't agree, rather it is the UK government  who  are failing to accede to a reasonable request for up-rating. Hopefully this now dispels the ridiculous notion that the UK government cannot up-rate because of the failure of others to cooperate. 

[cleopatra2]

25 minutes ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

 

 

A DSS Memorandum to the Social Security Committee in 1996 explained the role of reciprocal social security agreements:

 

16. Reciprocal social security agreements are not entered into solely with a view to paying annual up-rating increases to UK pensioners living abroad. They are not strictly necessary for that purpose as up-rating can be achieved through UK domestic legislation…

 

The following has been extracted from the House of Commons Library: Briefing paper: CBP-01497: Frozen Pensions Overseas: 07.08.2018: Item: 1:2  Reciprocal Agreements:

 

In 2013, the Government said it had received requests for reciprocal agreements or representations on up-rating from a number of countries: In recent times, there have been requests from Columbia (2008), Mongolia (2007), Thailand (2010), Uruguay (2011) and Brazil (2011). In recent months the Government has received representations from both Australia and Canada in which they raised the issue of up-rating the UK State Pension. Those two countries represent by far the largest proportion of recipients in countries where the UK state pension is not index-linked and indexation would present a considerable cost to the Exchequer, particularly considering the wide disparity in the number of pensioners involved. The Government has therefore informed the Australian and Canadian governments that it will not be opening formal discussions on this policy.

 

Please note that in the case of Thailand it is not the Thai government that won't agree, rather it is the UK government  who  are failing to accede to a reasonable request for up-rating. Hopefully this now dispels the ridiculous notion that the UK government cannot up-rate because of the failure of others to cooperate. 

The UK government had never claimed that it cannot uprate due to not having agreements.

The government position is it only uprates oversees where an agreement exist. If an agreement does not exist it does not uprate.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, evadgib said:

John Duffy, the chairman of the Consortium of International British Pensioners, who lives in Antigua, said: “The next step of the campaign is to take this to the High Court.

“We are in discussions with leading legal experts and getting advice on a challenge.”

He said a previous legal challenge had failed because it focussed on Article 15 of the Human Rights Act which focuses on depriving people of their nationality.

The new challenge is set to focus on the right to family life in Article 8 with many pensioners moving abroad to be close to family members.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1040563/pension-scandal-victim-work-and-pension?fbclid=IwAR1snUZYebzkn4lyXfc_HLy_nZBQRDcCG1cKueVCyPPUcCLCrVHeMcD6FN8

Personally I think that any approach around some form of "human right" will be like pxxxing in the wind. The fundamental injustice is the lack of equal returns for equal contributions.

The government would be very quick to stamp on a private scheme that had a similar policy.

[pastprime]

Makes me wonder if a new challenge is made against the govt refusal to upgrade pensions, and fails,would this be the final nail in the coffin for Brits staying in Thailand?

 

      Any position the UK govt. takes re pensions  has the potential eventually to reduce oneself to a pauper,if the pension is one of the main sources of income   It is fundamentally a human rights issue,the right not to be forced into a totally degrading position,see those poor sods in Chiang Mai,stayed too long,hardly a pension,get slung out of the country eventually,(no hope of that as no money for medivac)

 

  Plans in the making? my dogs PTS,only renting thank God,Spain or France beckons perhaps ,have to see in the not too distant future ,but yes,mail forwarding in the intermediate future seems to be the answer,every country hosts dozens of mail forwarding options via the web,cheap too,even the UK  'Hang onto the UK driving licence,use me"   

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by pastprime
dup

[nong38]

The continual reduction what your money will provide is a worry, there must come a time to make a decision before its too late about moving on. I am not sure if France and Spain are alternatives, the prices have gone up there as well, the last I was in Lille 3 years ago a small beer was 3GBP and a bowl of moules was 7. Last time I was in Spain probably 8 years ago the fuel was the same price as the UK when 15 years before it was half the price, the Phillipines might solve all the problems, up rated pensions and a nice warm climate but do seem to have some weather issues.

One would hope the HMG would not put to many resources into the persecution of expats pensioners who reduced the burden on the NHS, elderly care and local services.

[nong38]

The continual reduction what your money will provide is a worry, there must come a time to make a decision before its too late about moving on. I am not sure if France and Spain are alternatives, the prices have gone up there as well, the last I was in Lille 3 years ago a small beer was 3GBP and a bowl of moules was 7. Last time I was in Spain probably 8 years ago the fuel was the same price as the UK when 15 years before it was half the price, the Phillipines might solve all the problems, up rated pensions and a nice warm climate but do seem to have some other weather issues from time to time and the big question "do they have affordable bar girls if required?"

One would hope the HMG would not put to many resources into the persecution of expats pensioners who reduced the burden on the NHS, elderly care and local services. 

[topt]

54 minutes ago, nong38 said:

and the big question "do they have affordable bar girls if required?"

They certainly used to and still do according to people I know who go regularly to AC or Subic. Golf however used to be much more expensive but it has been a while since I was there...........

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, pastprime said:

Makes me wonder if a new challenge is made against the govt refusal to upgrade pensions, and fails,would this be the final nail in the coffin for Brits staying in Thailand?

HMG's only option is to sort this out sooner rather than later and that is exactly what they will do. The only thing I cannot be sure of is WHEN.

[billzant]

"HMG's only option is to sort this out sooner rather than later and that is exactly what they will do. The only thing I cannot be sure of is WHEN." Evadgib, I'd like to agree with you but I have to ask you "why will they sort it out?"

 

They have been taken to all kinds of courts, and, whilst they have won every judgement because they make the law and they are not breaking it, internationally HMG have been shown to have an immoral and uncaring approach. But it doesn't matter to them - it saves them money. With all the other stuff going on in the country why are they going to worry about 500000 living outside the UK?

 

In my view we have to keep pushing more and more to embarrass them about their heartlessness and immorality, but caring about being heartless is not a virtue of HMG.

 

I hope you are right but ....

 

 

[evadgib]

19 minutes ago, billzant said:

Evadgib, I'd like to agree with you but I have to ask you "why will they sort it out?"

Suffragettes?

Alan Turing?

Post-War kids to Australia?

Capital Punishment (abolition)?

Good Friday Agreement (after decades of 'not talking to terrorists')?

Windrush?

 

HMG has done more U turns than spaghetti jct over the years. The question isn't why it's a much simpler how and when.

 

[ivor bigun]

Suffragettes?
Alan Turing?
Post-War kids to Australia?
Capital Punishment (abolition)?
Good Friday Agreement (after decades of 'not talking to terrorists')?
Windrush?
 
HMG has done more U turns than spaghetti jct over the years. The question isn't why it's a much simpler how and when.
 

I dont know about how ,but when well when pigs fly. :(

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[pastprime]

Out of sight,out of mind,..just about sums up HMG approach to frozen pensions,and HMG have other fish to fry lately,I do not believe it will ever change.

  It is the decision making that baffles,how can they willingly let their citizens suffer? when giving away 12 billion to tin pot regimes but not upgrade for half a bil to their own subjects.

  anyway its up to the individual who suffers to go his own way,,accept it,or do something about it

[billzant]

"HMG has done more U turns than spaghetti jct over the years. The question isn't why it's a much simpler how and when."

Evadgid:-

 

How? Every year there is the social security order in which "normal" pensions are uprated, they could add our names to this. 

 

When as early as next Feb/march if they chose to.

The question is why would they do it. I would argue that two factors cause change - public pressure or political expediency. Anne has created some pressure but is it enough? Northern Ireland helped Blair's career, how would solving our problem help anyone? The issue is small

I would like to be proved wrong but I don't believe HMG changes policy based on injustice, but rather that the public pressure about the injustice causes issues. With the level of injustice that exists in the UK at the moment I am not hopeful. 

Despite this assessment I welcome any actions organisations take to raise the profile of the issue but in Thailand it is in our interest to support the APPG solution http://frozenbritishpensions.org/a-solution/ rather than a possible Commonwealth solution only.

[billzant]

"It is the decision making that baffles,how can they willingly let their citizens suffer? when giving away 12 billion to tin pot regimes but not upgrade for half a bil to their own subjects."

pastprime - we are not the citizens who matter as we don't pay into party coffers.

[ivor bigun]

The other problem is people in Britain either see us as rich oap's living the high life ,old guys chasing young girls here in Thailand or old farts who had it all and deserve nothing.we are rarely seen as family men just living a normal life

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[DILLIGAD]

The other problem is people in Britain either see us as rich oap's living the high life ,old guys chasing young girls here in Thailand or old farts who had it all and deserve nothing.we are rarely seen as family men just living a normal life

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Very true!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pastprime]

• 5086

 

Unless backed up by other pensions, healthy bank balance the frozen pension will send people elsewhere,its got to,strangulation by stealth,no good banging on about injustice,it would have been overturned years ago.

   There is one contributor I'm sorry about,the return to UK with kids,the pension here makes sure you cannot build an amount on to carry on with life there without difficulty(yes you spelt it out),housing itself in UK is virtually impossible,especially local authority,that is why Spain is an option for me,tons of the stuff.

  you just have to seek measures to escape the trap,I do not believe and never have the DWP come looking,not resourced or bothered,just the proof of life is necessary,UK address you will not get notice,elsewhere you will,but it is only a paper exercise ,its return is proof of life,not officially signed too.

 I'm sick to death of life here anyway,but for the mutts Id be long gone,jealousy rules the day,just get on with it all,no death and destruction notices please,it just don't happen..sorry

    Aussie,Canada frozen pensioners are not actually frozen,their own SS system takes up slack from UK pension

Edited November 15, 2018 by pastprime
dup

[nong38]

So what you are saying is that the DWP rely on people being honest and telling them where they live or on informers, you might very well be right. The " I am still alive" card comes out at random every 5-10 years is their other card but with the march of technology one does wonder what the future holds with newish auto barriers at Immigration able to track your whereabouts at any given time.

Spain is not a bad idea, just make sure you understand the rules of "foreigners" and their property, always thought the Canaries was very nice, not in the EU as a full member though, its an associate like the Channel Islands.

[pastprime]

16 minutes ago, nong38 said:

So what you are saying is that the DWP rely on people being honest and telling them where they live or on informers, you might very well be right. The " I am still alive" card comes out at random every 5-10 years is their other card but with the march of technology one does wonder what the future holds with newish auto barriers at Immigration able to track your whereabouts at any given time.

Spain is not a bad idea, just make sure you understand the rules of "foreigners" and their property, always thought the Canaries was very nice, not in the EU as a full member though, its an associate like the Channel Islands.

'technology' Nong can be as simple as this ...where journey starts..OK  Man... where it ends  Barc/Ams  then onward.   If you read this thread from years ago ,you realise there is nothing to be done,nothing,even if they do track,they will not share information at the level you suggest,on the scheme of things you do not exist...but OK some think its up there with theft of crown jewels...complete and utter farce

 

Canaries I always thought of being trapped on an island,but yes an option

[pastprime]

29 minutes ago, nong38 said:

 

This web page sure does some hopping

Edited November 15, 2018 by pastprime
dup

[denby45]

2 hours ago, nong38 said:

So what you are saying is that the DWP rely on people being honest and telling them where they live or on informers, you might very well be right. The " I am still alive" card comes out at random every 5-10 years is their other card but with the march of technology one does wonder what the future holds with newish auto barriers at Immigration able to track your whereabouts at any given time.

Spain is not a bad idea, just make sure you understand the rules of "foreigners" and their property, always thought the Canaries was very nice, not in the EU as a full member though, its an associate like the Channel Islands.

I believe the Canaries are a full member as one of the OMR (Outer Most Regions). They are slightly different because they have some dispensations due to their location. I too like the Canaries because the weather is better than Spain.

 

Den

Edited November 15, 2018 by denby45

[billzant]

If you want to stay in Asia with a full pension go to the Philippines - reciprocal agreement ie full pension there.

 

"The other problem is people in Britain either see us as rich oap's living the high life ,old guys chasing young girls here in Thailand or old farts who had it all and deserve nothing.we are rarely seen as family men just living a normal life"

 

Ivor, I don't think the number of Thai frozen pensioners crosses their mind.

 

14 years ago i returned to the UK for a year for personal reasons after having been abroad 10 years. Everywhere I went I met people who were jealous. They didn't ask whether i was happy, the money I had, etc. there was just jealousy. Since then there has been a long period of austerity so I doubt if that jealousy has gone.

I therefore think that it is unlikely that the interest that Anne built can be expanded on through a popular movement of UK citizens.

 

I personally think that the only hope is a government who tries to rectify unjust situations. Corbyn might well help with that especially as he is on APPG - and i mean Corbyn and not Labour because Blair didn't help. 

 

But for many on this forum Corbyn is the last thing they want so ....

 

I am not very hopeful about the "breaking up family" thing that IGBP want to try. But I do wish them luck as it is in my interest.. 

[billzant]

If you want to stay in Asia with a full pension go to the Philippines - reciprocal agreement ie full pension there.

 

"The other problem is people in Britain either see us as rich oap's living the high life ,old guys chasing young girls here in Thailand or old farts who had it all and deserve nothing.we are rarely seen as family men just living a normal life"

 

Ivor, I don't think the number of Thai frozen pensioners crosses their mind.

 

14 years ago i returned to the UK for a year for personal reasons after having been abroad 10 years. Everywhere I went I met people who were jealous. They didn't ask whether i was happy, the money I had, etc. there was just jealousy. Since then there has been a long period of austerity so I doubt if that jealousy has gone.

I therefore think that it is unlikely that the interest that Anne built can be expanded on through a popular movement of UK citizens.

 

I personally think that the only hope is a government who tries to rectify unjust situations. Corbyn might well help with that especially as he is on APPG - and i mean Corbyn and not Labour because Blair didn't help. 

 

But for many on this forum Corbyn is the last thing they want so ....

 

I am not very hopeful about the "breaking up family" thing that IGBP want to try. But I do wish them luck as it is in my interest.. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by billzant
apologies for triple post!!

[billzant]

If you want to stay in Asia with a full pension go to the Philippines - reciprocal agreement ie full pension there.

 

"The other problem is people in Britain either see us as rich oap's living the high life ,old guys chasing young girls here in Thailand or old farts who had it all and deserve nothing.we are rarely seen as family men just living a normal life"

 

Ivor, I don't think the number of Thai frozen pensioners crosses their mind.

 

14 years ago i returned to the UK for a year for personal reasons after having been abroad 10 years. Everywhere I went I met people who were jealous. They didn't ask whether i was happy, the money I had, etc. there was just jealousy. Since then there has been a long period of austerity so I doubt if that jealousy has gone.

I therefore think that it is unlikely that the interest that Anne built can be expanded on through a popular movement of UK citizens.

 

I personally think that the only hope is a government who tries to rectify unjust situations. Corbyn might well help with that especially as he is on APPG - and i mean Corbyn and not Labour because Blair didn't help. 

 

But for many on this forum Corbyn is the last thing they want so ....

 

I am not very hopeful about the "breaking up family" thing that IGBP want to try. But I do wish them luck as it is in my interest.. 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, billzant said:

If you want to stay in Asia with a full pension go to the Philippines - reciprocal agreement ie full pension there.

 

"The other problem is people in Britain either see us as rich oap's living the high life ,old guys chasing young girls here in Thailand or old farts who had it all and deserve nothing.we are rarely seen as family men just living a normal life"

 

Ivor, I don't think the number of Thai frozen pensioners crosses their mind.

 

14 years ago i returned to the UK for a year for personal reasons after having been abroad 10 years. Everywhere I went I met people who were jealous. They didn't ask whether i was happy, the money I had, etc. there was just jealousy. Since then there has been a long period of austerity so I doubt if that jealousy has gone.

I therefore think that it is unlikely that the interest that Anne built can be expanded on through a popular movement of UK citizens.

 

I personally think that the only hope is a government who tries to rectify unjust situations. Corbyn might well help with that especially as he is on APPG - and i mean Corbyn and not Labour because Blair didn't help. 

 

But for many on this forum Corbyn is the last thing they want so ....

 

I am not very hopeful about the "breaking up family" thing that IGBP want to try. But I do wish them luck as it is in my interest.. 

 

If you want to stay in Asia with a full pension go to the Philippines - reciprocal agreement ie full pension there.

<snip>

 

What do I do with my Thai wife and son?