UK pensions

[theoldgit]

^^^^^^

They sent me the forms automatically, they had my address as I previously requested an estimate, so I sent the claim by mail, they didn't ask for any proof.

They don't acknowledge the forms when you send them, despite the fact there is a tick box to request an acknowledgement of receipt.

I did't claim by the Gateway as I'm not registered, but when I have phoned them in Newcastle, I found them to be very helpful.

[Kwasaki]

^^^^^^

They sent me the forms automatically, they had my address as I previously requested an estimate, so I sent the claim by mail, they didn't ask for any proof.

They don't acknowledge the forms when you send them, despite the fact there is a tick box to request an acknowledgement of receipt.

I did't claim by the Gateway as I'm not registered, but when I have phoned them in Newcastle, I found them to be very helpful.

Just to clarify did you phone them in Newcastle from Thailand.?

Sounds like I'd should do the same thing these forms are dam confusing, I have no intension of going back to UK..

I downloaded IPC BR1 form that wants birth certificate as well as marriage certificate but looks like from the questions asked, it will be the form for my Thai wife to fill out when she is due for her UK pension.

BR form only wants marriage certificate but is the form for someone living in the UK, it asked if you have worked abroad and what dates, which is something I did but was paid in England, buggered if I can remember the date's, another question is did you receive child benefit before 1978, that's weird.

I think I will send a letter first and go from there.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Kwasaki

[theoldgit]

Just to clarify did you phone them in Newcastle from Thailand.?

Sounds like I'd should do the same thing these forms are dam confusing, I have no intension of going back to UK..

I downloaded IPC BR1 form that wants birth certificate as well as marriage certificate but looks like from the questions asked, it will be the form for my Thai wife to fill out when she is due for her UK pension.

BR form only wants marriage certificate but is the form for someone living in the UK, it asked if you have worked abroad and what dates, which is something I did but was paid in England, buggered if I can remember the date's, another question is did you receive child benefit before 1978, that's weird.

I think I will send a letter first and go from there.

I did phone them from Thailand, but that was to request an estimate.

I then received the claim form in December, it says they are sent out automatically about four months before you reach 65, I think the fact I called Newcastle was coincidental, though they obviously need to know where you are living.

With my claim form was a covering letter saying they didn't require any supporting evidence, it's a personalised letter, I don't know if that's because I worked for the Home Office or that's pretty standard, I suspect that it's the latter, as they seem to know everything about you, including your Nectar Card details.

I think they only want all the supporting evidence if they don't send you a claim form and you have to download one.

A couple of weeks back I got a letter reminding me of my 65th birthday and also reminding me that my State Pension is liable for UK tax.

[mikecwm]

1) That's exactly what they are "reciprocal" agreements where believe it or not Europeans from over the channel come to the UK and not just pensioners. Also part of much wider (European) agreements with reciprocal and and often mutual benefits which are sometimes 2 way direct and sometimes indirect

Simply untrue.

Brit citizens who live in the USA get their state pension uprated, but US citizens cannot just decide to go and live in the UK.

As a Brit / Canadian citizen my UK state pension will not be uprated in Canada (or Thailand when I move there), yet my Canadian pensions will be increased annually in the UK / Thailand.

So much for Reciprocal arrangements.

I will receive 100% of the Brit pension - and watch it slowly disappear away with inflation.

At least the 50% of the Canadian pensions (only 20 years here) will keep up with inflation.

[mikecwm]

To get the most from your Brit State Pension:-

http://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/state-pensions/living-overseas

Defer it as long as you can (assume you are going to live to 100):-

"I am now resident abroad. Can I take the option to defer my State Pension?"

"Yes you can defer your state pension once you get to pension age, even if you are non-resident. You can read our overview on state pension deferral here.

In these circumstances the DWP Pension Service will continue to add annual increases to your pension even if you do not live in one of the reciprocal agreements countries referred to earlier. For those who live in a country where annual increases are not normally awarded their pension will be flat rated from the point that they start to collect it. This may seem a strange approach but the DWP Pension Service has confirmed that those not normally entitled to annual increases will receive them if their pension is in deferment for the period of that deferment".

Leave it until you are 70 and you will receive at least 5 years of Uprating.

Maybe by that time the UK economy (without Scotland it may well do better) may have improved enough for the government to do the right and fair thing. If not, at least you will have had an extra 5 years inflation proofing out of it plus an extra 52% (an extra 1% for each 5 weeks of deferral)on top of the amount at age 65.

And how about less of the bickering between some of you on this topic. You know who you are - like bloody kids at each other's throats. Grow up.

Edited April 24, 2012 by mikecwm

[exeter]

Gentlemen the site is for us share information not to attack each other! We all have points, up to each to decide which is relevant to the reader, depends upon circumstances and point of view, we are all individuals and we don't have to agree but please can we keep positions civilised, either you agree or disagree will suffice.

[fletchsmile]

I have to say when it comes to pensions my key philosophies are:

1) Try and put yourself in a position where you don't need to rely on them, and seek out better alternatives, where the money is always yours
2) Remember the government has the power to (and indeed increasingly does) change the rules - usually in their favour not yours
3) A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush

I'll be taking all my pensions at the first available opportunity. I watched my father use pensions as a key vehicle for the future. Some of the drawbacks:

1) He died age 69 so arguably didn't get what he put into the system for over 40 years. Deferring would have mean he simply lost 4 years of money which he could have used while alive. to have a better life. Loss being over GBP 20,000 if he'd gone the deferral route mentioned

2) On private pensions, he was a victim of Equitable Life. Anyone saying the government providing guarantees as to security on private pensions is just plain wrong. He received compensation over 10 years after the event - in which the governments performed miserably - by which time he had already passed away. They proceeded to calculate his loss and then gave him something like 25% of what they calculated! (BTW I'm still waiting for my own compensation)

3) On private pensions, the majority of average folk buy an annuity. I believe he got something like 6% per annum and on some of them guaranteed for 5 years, and on some half pension for spouse. So on the best cases my mum continues to get 3 pounds on every hundred each year (3% still poor), and on the worst he got 4/5 years of 6 pounds on every hundred. In all cases a very poor return given the capital is surrendered. Even on the best cases my mum would have to live over 33 years to get the capital back, excluding inflation

Deferral schemes and annuities might sound good but bear in mind they make money out of people dying earlier than expected. You have to think:
1) Do you really think they would lose out by this scheme?
2) You could be that person and die early

I'd say if you can afford to defer, in many cases that probably means you could also afford to take it early and either spend and enjoy it, or keep it on one side, without harming your financial status too much, whereas someone who needs the money can't afford to defer.

Edited October 29, 2013 by astral

[astral]

Interesting calculations on the effect of delaying the pension.

When the details for my small private pension came through, there was an option for a lump sum

and reduced annual pension. I calculated I had to live at least 15 years for it to matter,

so I took the lump sum to have a little extra luxury now!!

[Kwasaki]

Just a little change of subject got my UK pension claim filled out and submitted on-line doing it from Thailand through the Gateway web-site was easy really except getting timed out when answering to slowly sent my Birth cert and marriage cert off at the post office with EMS, 950 bht phew !!.

Got the paper from my private pension too and filling out the 2 policy forms, but telephoned them in the Uk and told them they have to wait till I get my birth cert back from Newcastle.

Nothing spoke of about any freezes .

[Kwasaki]

Just a little change of subject got my UK pension claim filled out and submitted on-line doing it from Thailand through the Gateway web-site was easy really except getting timed out when answering to slowly sent my Birth cert and marriage cert off at the post office with EMS, 950 bht phew !!.

Got the paper from my private pension too and filling out the 2 policy forms, but telephoned them in the Uk and told them they have to wait till I get my birth cert back from Newcastle.

Nothing spoke of about any freezes .

I have just claimed mine over the phone and no paperwork had to be seen or sent, if anyone is in Thailand I would get a International phone card (300 bts from TOT) and do it over the phone, cheaper and safer.

You can claim by phone in England I know but I telephoned the the pension centre first from Thailand and the guy said I have to claim through the International Pension Centre.

That's why I write here to inform people wanting to claim in Thailand what happens, I telephoned the International Pension Centre on my Thai tot house phone using 008 and the lady said I cannot claim over the phone from abroard, you can do it on-line using UK Government Gateway ( easy to join up and it good if you have to deal with tax issues as well later ) or they will post the forms to your address in Thailand but original birth certificates & marriage certificate are required to be sent with the last page printed from the on-line claim or posted back with the forms they have sent you.

My daughter is sending me tax forms already received at my UK postal address, don't waste any time at all do they.

[prodriver]

When I applied for my UK State Pension last year, I noticed that there were two claim forms available but the claim form "IPC BR1" for Brits living abroad required you, amongst other things, to send your birth certificate with your application. It also asked you to tell them about anytime you spent in the UK and required you to give them a full work history including dates. Having worked for many employers in the UK from the time I left school at 16, I had great difficulty in fulfilling that request datewise. But I noticed that the 'other' form "BR1" did not require you to send in your birth certificate nor did it require you to give a work history so that was the form I sent in to the International Pensions people in Newcastle. The form was accepted and the claim went through successfully.

In other words the "BR1" form seemed to be more appropriate for someone who had spent the majority of their working life in the UK and the "IPCBR1" form for those that had spent little time in the UK.
Maybe worth noting?

[nong38]

With regard to Govt Gateway, I have recently joined this, I have a reference number and password but I know await something through the post to activate the account which is a bot difficult for anyone living abroad, it suppossed to take about 7 working days, still well still waiting and when I tried the last time I was in the UK it never arrived. Until it arrives and I can activate it I dont know all the services that become available, HMRC is one that I am interested in as I have written to them and have yet to recieve a reply as well, perhaps next time I should send them a picture of a letter box

[Eff1n2ret]

With regard to Govt Gateway, I have recently joined this, I have a reference number and password but I know await something through the post to activate the account which is a bot difficult for anyone living abroad, it suppossed to take about 7 working days, still well still waiting and when I tried the last time I was in the UK it never arrived. Until it arrives and I can activate it I dont know all the services that become available, HMRC is one that I am interested in as I have written to them and have yet to recieve a reply as well, perhaps next time I should send them a picture of a letter box

You have 28 days from opening the account to activate the PIN number which they post to you. The trouble is that for overseas addresses they use a courier and it gets sent via a depot in Holland, then is put in the post at this end. I fell foul of this the first time I applied, and it arrived too late. The second time it arrived with about 6 days to spare. Hope you have better luck this time. At least when the PIN arrives the completion of the registration process is quick and easy.

It's only the Gateway registration that uses the courier. HMRC's letters come direct through the mail, and they seem to answer queries quite quickly.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Eff1n2ret

[astral]

Being Non Resident and Not Ordinarily Resident does not exempt you from

tax on income arising in the UK.

e.g. The OAP

Private Pensions etc

[GuestHouse]

Thanks Kawasaki ! I will be able to claim one of my company pensions late next year and had been thinking of not taking all the lump sum - as I've a nasty habit of spending money like water... I now know that taking the lump sum in full is definitely the way to go.

Careful, if you have more than one pension (and particularly if you have a mix of private and company pensions) then you should examine the other benefits you loose when you take a tax free lump sum.

To explain:

Your tax free lump sum is a maximum of 25% of your total pension pot.

So if you had a gold plated all bells and whistles company final salary pension + a defined contribution company pension + an private pension/AVC then you would need to examine the benefits in each scheme to decide where to draw your 25% tax free lump sum from.

Typically - Draw from private pensions/AVCs first, then from Defined Benefit Schemes and last of all from that Gold Plated all bells and whistle final salary pension scheme.

[4.real]

I imagine there are many ,like me, who retired early [age 48] and decided to find a new home after the mess the governments had made of what was once the United Kingdom.

What with .P.C and giving top local government positions to people based on colour rather than ability.

Petty laws and an almost absence of police on the beat plus the high cost of living made me decide to settle here in Thailand.

As I had earned my pension It did not occur to me that I could not take my pension to wherever I decided to live.I knew I would be giving up health benerfts and winter allowance and accepted that.

I am not prepared to accept that the pension I paid dearly for, app 25 % of salary for 44 years, should be decreed a 'government benefit' which they can even decide to refuse me any payment on.

Did you really start work at age 4 and then pay Insurance for 44 years?You have my respect.

Apologies.I paid 25% of my salary throughout my working career.I paid the remaining years as voluntary payments.

I started work at age 15....33 years at 25% N.I.S

[Eff1n2ret]

Where did you get the imformation about having to declare the country you are residing in? I have never seen this or been asked the question.

It's all there for those who can be bothered to find out:-

http://www.direct.go...nsion/DG_180156

See the paragraph saying you should inform the International Pension Centre if you move abroad.

From memory I think the letter informing you of the pension you will receive also states this. I wrote to them when I retired and moved.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Eff1n2ret

[cockerdoodledo]

Post 1133. I know of people who have ben tracked and have had their benefits frozen, they did not contact DWP. Someone did, so is there anyone around who might like to get even with you or take retribution? Its a chance you take, if you feel comfortable about evading and sleep well, then go with it. The last thing you want is no pension turning up until you contact the servive with all that that would entail.

To the best of my knowledge HMRC and DWP dont seem to talk to each other, HMRC just want as much as they can legally get and it pays not to lie to them, if they decide to investigate you, they will make life very difficult for you and you are not in the UK to deal with things.

Seems you and you alone ,among with a "like" are with frozen pensions.

Yes I sleep very well,too well in fact. I would be kicking myself if I stabbed myself in the back though

[Eff1n2ret]

Maybe slightly off topic but is it possible to have your UK State Pension paid to you in Thailand under the double taxation rules, so you pay no UK income tax on your State Pension only Thai income tax if you can obtain a Thai tax reference number that is. I do have a private pension from my former UK employer and I must pay UK income tax on that I'm informed, but I'm coming up to 65 and looking at the double taxation regulations wondered if this was possible.

Any advice welcome,

Peter

Virtually all UK-generated pension income is subject to UK taxation, so the simple answer to your question is "no", you don't have the option to pay in Thailand. Your State Pension will become part of your taxable income, but in practice it will probably be paid to you gross and the tax due on your total income (less the tax-free allowance) will be collected from your other pension provider by an adjustment to your coding notice.

[theblether]

I've heard from my BBC contact, she has read a few hundred of the posts and she can see some value in what has been posted, however I must say I am deeply embarrassed.

My contact is second generation Indian, she is appalled at the latent racism in this thread. I've been ridiculed today because of this. Thanks for that

My father has been invited onto a BBC Radio panel show, it will be broadcast relatively soon. I will be meeting my contact at that show and we will discuss the issue further. Once again I promise you nothing, but I can promise you that I'm hard pressed to remember the last time I was humiliated like this.

[true blue]

yes you will get your serps,in your company pension,as you were propaly contracted out,manage to get additional allowance for spouse 2/3 year ago,its only for 10 years though,lose nearly 25% of pension,get divorced then,lol.

[lungbing]

The widow is entitled to two death benefits.

One is called "Bereavement Payment" and is upto 2,000 pounds depending on her late husband's NI payment record. That one is a one-off, tax-free, lump-sum payment. I think there may be a time limit to claim it.

The other payment is called "Bereavement Allowance" and is a taxable amount paid weekly for 52 weeks following the death. The amount payable depends on the widow's age at the time of her husband's death, but may be about 100 quid a week.

In addition to death certificate, copy of marriage certificate, copy of husband's passport I think she will need a copy of her birth certificate.

She will need an NI number as well, but Newcastle should deal with that.

When she reaches UK pension age I believe she'll also get a UK single person's state pension.

This is all dependent on the fact that they were legally married.

Good luck, lots of paperwork, but worth it for her.

As an aside, as a smug git I have written my wife a 30 page folder detailing everything she will need when I snuff it.

Details range from my parents' names birth/death. My previous addresses in UK and dates, NI number, tax reference number,

bank details, draft letters to UK embassy, banks, tax office, pension company etc friends and contacts phone numers and email addresses

and a host of other trivia. And I keep it updated.

[rgs2001uk]

Many thanks to the three posters above, JohnC, evadgib and lungbing, at least I have something to go on.

The woman told me her husband was in his eighties had been a train driver, so may well have a British Rail pension, but I didnt press her on it, its doubtful if she would even know.

As menetioned by lungbing and pertinent to re-emphasise, gents, please get you shit together, God alone knows who this lady would have turned to, she told me she went to the UK embassy and they fobbed her off.

Looks like it will be a call to Newcastle on Wed, thanks again to the posters for providing the info I sought.

[JohnC]

International pensions department should also have a record of any other pensions her late husband had, they certainly had details of two of mine!

[evadgib]

Agreed, but 100k signatures from the 5.4 million Brits living abroad would render their thoughts redundant:)

Tongue-in-cheek of course, but the lack of motivation evident in this thread is the main reason why progress is taking so long.

Edited August 25, 2012 by evadgib

[Eff1n2ret]

I've asked before and I'll ask again in hope....

The HM Govt must have had a winning case at the European Court.

What was that case?

(I have suggested that expats generally don't spend in the UK so the government does not benefit from secondary levels of taxation on it.....no idea if that's their case).

Thanks

Cheeryble

Sorry, I've been trying to cut and paste the link to the European Court judgement, but it doesn't work. I guess if you Google 'Case of Carson and others v. United Kingdom (Application no. 42184/05)' you should be able to find it.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Eff1n2ret

[mikecwm]

I've asked before and I'll ask again in hope....

The HM Govt must have had a winning case at the European Court.

What was that case?

(I have suggested that expats generally don't spend in the UK so the government does not benefit from secondary levels of taxation on it.....no idea if that's their case).

Thanks

Cheeryble

Sorry, I've been trying to cut and paste the link to the European Court judgement, but it doesn't work. I guess if you Google 'Case of Carson and others v. United Kingdom (Application no. 42184/05)' you should be able to find it.

Try this link. http://www.carp.ca/2012/06/15/british-overseas-pensioners-update/

It will at least give you a good over-view of the case.

Basically what the Brit government is saying, and the ECHR agrees, is that all pensioners are not equal in value. Some are disposable and to be ignored as deserving of less of a fair deal.

No there's no logic or reason on their side. The government knows it is in the wrong, but if you have 500,000 pensioners living outside the UK, you might as well ignore them as they have no political value.

If I was a Brit MP I would be ashamed.

[Eff1n2ret]

In fact, the guts of the Government's argument is this, which I lift direct from the actual judgement:-

2. The parties' submissions

b. The Government

79. The Government adopted the reasoning and conclusions of the domestic courts and the Chamber. The applicants could not claim to be in an analogous situation to United Kingdom residents. Most national systems of social security and taxation were tailored to the particular country and intended to be national in character, as was recognised by international law. In the United Kingdom, social security benefits, including the State pension, were part of an interlocking system of taxation and social welfare intended to ensure minimum standards of living for those who lived in the country. It was no doubt in recognition of the national character of social security schemes that Ms Carson's counsel agreed in the course of the domestic proceedings that she could have no complaint if the Government had paid no pensions whatever to people who had gone to live abroad (see paragraph 35 above).

80. Moreover, even if it could be assumed that inflation was common to all States, it would be artificial to isolate the single factor of inflation from other factors, such as different rates of growth and fluctuations in exchange rates. It would be practically impossible, or at least extraordinarily onerous, to require the State authorities to conduct a cost of living/value based comparison between people living in the United Kingdom and those living in different foreign countries and if a decision were made to pay something to those living abroad, it could not be a finely calibrated amount based on analysis of the cost of living and value of sterling in each country.

81. Focussing simply on the National Insurance contributions paid by the applicants involved a misleading oversimplification. Contributions required to be made by earners, employers and others to the National Insurance Fund could not properly be equated with or compared to contributions made to a private pension scheme. The National Insurance scheme was a social insurance scheme, based on a universal pooling of resources. Contribution liability was related to a person's ability to pay rather than to expectation of future entitlement. Not all contributory benefits were payable to non-residents.

82. The Government further contended that the applicants were not in a position analogous to pensioners living in States with which the United Kingdom had entered into reciprocal arrangements. The differences with this comparator group were founded, as the domestic courts at each level recognised, on the fact of reciprocal arrangements either being or not being in place with the relevant foreign State. Those arrangements were concluded in each case on the basis of judgments as to whether the proposed package of arrangements represented an acceptable, advantageous position for the United Kingdom. The applicants' argument necessarily involved the proposition that if a bilateral treaty in the social security sphere were entered into and conferred advantages on some people in relation to one or more aspects of social security, those advantages would necessarily have to be conferred on all others, living in all countries. The result would effectively negate the power to enter into bilateral treaties of this kind.

The real killer, IMHO, is Para82 and the sentences I have highlighted in bold. Despite the explanation below, I still don't really understand why a UK pensioner in the Philippines gets increases and we in Thailand don't. It seems to me a bit of an anachronism, given that no such bilateral treaties have been concluded in the last 20 years. Further back in the judgement, there are these intructive paragraphs:-

45. Of the bilateral agreements entered into by the United Kingdom which cover more than liability for contributions, nearly all cover retirement pension and widows'/bereavement benefits. The majority also cover sickness, incapacity and maternity benefits. Some cover unemployment and child benefit. Where access to a benefit covered by the agreement is dependent on contributions, the agreement generally provides for aggregation of the contributions paid in each country. Each country then calculates a pro-rata pension based on contributions made in that country. Where access to a benefit depends on a period of residence, the agreement is likely to provide for residence in one country to count as residence in the other. Where benefit is paid in one country taking account of residence/contributions in the other, there is usually a provision for reimbursement of the former by the latter. Not all reciprocal agreements to which the United Kingdom is a party, therefore, involve the payment of pension up-rating to United Kingdom expatriates.

46. The United Kingdom has reciprocal social security agreements providing for pension up-rating with all European Economic Area States and with Barbados, Bermuda, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Israel, Jamaica, Japan, Jersey and Guernsey, Korea, Mauritius, New Zealand, Philippines, Turkey, and the United States of America. Residents of the EEA countries and the countries listed above who qualify for a United Kingdom State Pension receive the same level of up-rating as United Kingdom residents; the up-rating is based on the rate of inflation in the United Kingdom and no regard is paid to inflation in the country of residence.

47. All the above agreements were concluded between 1948 and 1992, and from 1979 onwards the agreements were to fulfil earlier commitments made by the United Kingdom Government. Since June 1996, the Government's policy has been that future reciprocal agreements should normally be limited to resolving questions of liability for social security contributions. Agreements with Australia, New Zealand and Canada came into force in 1953, 1956 and 1959 respectively, but these did not require payment of up-rated pensions. The agreement with Australia was terminated by Australia as from 1 March 2001, because of the refusal of the United Kingdom to pay up-rated pensions to its pensioners living in Australia.

48. During the passage of the Pensions Bill through Parliament in 1995, amendments tabled in both Houses, calling for up-rating to be paid to all expatriate pensioners, were defeated by large majorities. According to the Government, it would cost approximately GBP 4 billion (4 thousand million) to pay the back-dated claims to up-rating of all United Kingdom pensioners resident abroad in “frozen” countries together with an ongoing annual bill of over GBP 500 million (0.79 % of the GBP 62.7 billion spent in total by the United Kingdom in 2008/2009 on pensions).

I think Para 48 explains why a now-bankrupt UK Government is never going to cough up.

[nong38]

If you return to the UK, even for a few weeks, you can simply telephone the pensions office and

give your NI number and they will adjust your pension accordingly, BUT

only until the date you leave again. Then it reverts to the old rate.

You are correct but at how many years to you have to be back before you recognized as a UK pensioner now residing in the UK?

[nontabury]

If you where to stay in the UK for two yrs or more,during which period you would have received the up to date rate,then you returned to Thailand, the rate would then freeze at that new up dated rate.

Edited October 2, 2012 by astral
No need for long quote pls use Reply button