2012 Formula One Season

[F1fanatic]

Don't forget that Massa beat Kimi in '08 and had performed a lot better than Kimi in his pre-accident final season. Few think Kimi is a below average driver. But I agree that he was almost gifted '08 by McLaren/Hamilton.

That is true, but Kimi, for whatever reason, really seemed to have "checked-out" in those seasons you mention. He just didn't seem to care about F1 back then.

Possibly, but he seemed to care again for the remainder of the season after Massa's accident!

Although I admit, it was Kimi's sudden improvement after Massa's accident that made me think that the car had suddenly improved - not Kimi.

[Sophon]

Why has Hamilton left Mclaren when Button is so inferior to him, I think Hamilton is fed up with a top team not giving him the car to win often, he has a gorgeous gf so all is not lost!! I hope he can turn Mercedes around and stick 2 fingers up to McLaren!!

If Button is so inferior to Hamilton, then why has Hamilton only managed to outscore him by a total of 5 points over the three seasons they have been in the same car?

Granted, Hamilton has more raw speed than Button especially if the car is not perfectly balanced, but he also makes lots of stupid and immature decisions. Racing is about more than just speed, you have to finish the race to score points.

Sophon

You are right, in terms of mistakes, Lewis does make a few more than Button, but mistakes are things you can work on and eliminate. Raw speed on the other hand, is something you either have or you don't have. Qualifying tells you all you need to know on that score. In a way, it's a much purer test of a driver's ability than the actual race, because quite a lot of the time, a driver's race isn't determined by how well they drive, but by factors often outside of their control, like whether the car has a mechanical failure, how well the team make tactical decisions, how well the team perform pit stops, or.whether they get driven into by another driver on the track. Over the course of a season, obviously these things should balance themselves out, but they don't always. Sometimes drivers are just downright unlucky. Not saying that Lewis has been. Just saying that simply comparing points scored doesn't always give you the full picture with regards how good a driver is.

Just two points:

One: This is not over the course of a season but over the course of almost three. I don't buy that drivers are more unlucky than others over that sort of timespan (other than the luck/bad luck they bring on themselves). With the same car and over almost three seasons a "so inferior" driver (which is how dogpoo put it) cannot score basically the same number of points as the supposedly superior driver.

Two: Yes, for some drivers "rookie" mistakes can be eliminated over time. But Hamilton is no longer a new driver in F1, this is actually his sixth season and you could argue that he never made as many mistakes as he did in the last season. But I wll admit he has been better this season, so maybe he is maturing.

I would also argue that Button can be as quick as Hamilton, but only when he has a perfectly set up car (case in point; his championship season). When the car is working for McLaren it's not that unusual for Button to outpace Hamilton. Hamilton does shine when the driver has to wring the best out of a poorly performing car, in that category he is probably only second to Alonso (who, however, makes far fewer mistakes).

And contrary to some, I don't find it exiting when drivers make bonehead passing attempt that lead to accidents and the pace car coming out making the race a lottery. I want to see races where the best driver/car combo wins, and don't mind if that means what people refer to as "boring races".

Sophon

[F1fanatic]

I agree with all of that, except the comment 'Alonso the 'best' when the driver has to wring the best out of a poorly performing car'.

You may be right, but I haven't seen enough evidence yet to whole-heartedly agree. The Ferrari was not one of the best cars at the beginning of the season, but comparing him to Massa to get an idea of the car's pace during this period is pointless - Massa was v bad indeed.

Fortunately for Alonso, the other top teams performed badly for various reasons - resulting in him leading the WDC. I honestly can't remember a single Alonso drive this season that made me think 'Wow', rather than 'well done Alonso for doing a good job'.

During the 'wilderness' years back at Renault ('08 - '10), I can't remember him doing anything special. But perhaps that is just my memory.

[rixalex]

One: This is not over the course of a season but over the course of almost three. I don't buy that drivers are more unlucky than others over that sort of timespan (other than the luck/bad luck they bring on themselves). With the same car and over almost three seasons a "so inferior" driver (which is how dogpoo put it) cannot score basically the same number of points as the supposedly superior driver.

Hamilton had a complete mare of a season last year. Mainly his own fault. I think this accounts for why their points tally is quite similar between the two drivers. I think if they continued racing together for the next couple of years, the points gap would stretch. Obviously no way of knowing now that Hamilton is moving. Just my opinion...

[dogpoo]

Why has Hamilton left Mclaren when Button is so inferior to him, I think Hamilton is fed up with a top team not giving him the car to win often, he has a gorgeous gf so all is not lost!! I hope he can turn Mercedes around and stick 2 fingers up to McLaren!!

If Button is so inferior to Hamilton, then why has Hamilton only managed to outscore him by a total of 5 points over the three seasons they have been in the same car?

Granted, Hamilton has more raw speed than Button especially if the car is not perfectly balanced, but he also makes lots of stupid and immature decisions. Racing is about more than just speed, you have to finish the race to score points.

Sophon

You are right, in terms of mistakes, Lewis does make a few more than Button, but mistakes are things you can work on and eliminate. Raw speed on the other hand, is something you either have or you don't have. Qualifying tells you all you need to know on that score. In a way, it's a much purer test of a driver's ability than the actual race, because quite a lot of the time, a driver's race isn't determined by how well they drive, but by factors often outside of their control, like whether the car has a mechanical failure, how well the team make tactical decisions, how well the team perform pit stops, or.whether they get driven into by another driver on the track. Over the course of a season, obviously these things should balance themselves out, but they don't always. Sometimes drivers are just downright unlucky. Not saying that Lewis has been. Just saying that simply comparing points scored doesn't always give you the full picture with regards how good a driver is.

Just two points:

One: This is not over the course of a season but over the course of almost three. I don't buy that drivers are more unlucky than others over that sort of timespan (other than the luck/bad luck they bring on themselves). With the same car and over almost three seasons a "so inferior" driver (which is how dogpoo put it) cannot score basically the same number of points as the supposedly superior driver.

Two: Yes, for some drivers "rookie" mistakes can be eliminated over time. But Hamilton is no longer a new driver in F1, this is actually his sixth season and you could argue that he never made as many mistakes as he did in the last season. But I wll admit he has been better this season, so maybe he is maturing.

I would also argue that Button can be as quick as Hamilton, but only when he has a perfectly set up car (case in point; his championship season). When the car is working for McLaren it's not that unusual for Button to outpace Hamilton. Hamilton does shine when the driver has to wring the best out of a poorly performing car, in that category he is probably only second to Alonso (who, however, makes far fewer mistakes).

And contrary to some, I don't find it exiting when drivers make bonehead passing attempt that lead to accidents and the pace car coming out making the race a lottery. I want to see races where the best driver/car combo wins, and don't mind if that means what people refer to as "boring races".

Sophon

In my opinion Hamilton is the sort of driver that keeps me interested in F1 whereas Button does nothing for my interest, every race you have something to talk about with Hamilton whether that is good or bad, with Button there is nothing to say other than he had a good race or did not have a good race!! I am not interested in the points scored between them, I just want an exciting race something that gets me on the edge of my seat, how boring would F1 be(and it is quite boring most of the time, if no one made so called bonehead passing attempts and causing a stir, most of the time F1 is a procession with the pole sitter winning, lets have some excitement, hopefully Hamilton being with a lesser team next year will fuel his desire to win even more leading to many exciting racing incidents!! Bring it on!!

Edited October 17, 2012 by dogpoo

[rixalex]

I would also argue that Button can be as quick as Hamilton, but only when he has a perfectly set up car (case in point; his championship season). When the car is working for McLaren it's not that unusual for Button to outpace Hamilton.

Not that unusual? I would say it is fairly unusual. How many races can you remember when both drivers have finished the race and Button has finished ahead of Hamilton purely on pace? I can think of maybe three or four times.

I agree with you though about Button being a driver who can perform well once he gets the car the way he wants it. A bit like Webber, although i think Button edges Webber.

[rixalex]

In my opinion Hamilton is the sort of driver that keeps me interested in F1 whereas Button does nothing for my interest, every race you have something to talk about with Hamilton whether that is good or bad, with Button there is nothing to say other than he had a good race or did not have a good race!! I am not interested in the points scored between them, I just want an exciting race something that gets me on the edge of my seat, how boring would F1 be(and it is quite boring most of the time, if no one made so called bonehead passing attempts and causing a stir, most of the time F1 is a procession with the pole sitter winning, lets have some excitement, hopefully Hamilton being with a lesser team next year will fuel his desire to win even more leading to many exciting racing incidents!! Bring it on!!

I agree with you to a point, although i think it's important to make the distinction between doing something audacious and daring, and doing something downright reckless and stupid.

I have always been excited, not by the drivers, like Prost, who play the percentages game, are very smooth, and are happy enough finishing fourth when they need to (although i appreciate in terms of the championship that is sometimes the sensible thing to do), but by the drivers who always fight to win and never give up, and can do that something amazing that other drivers either daren't or can't. Take those sorts of drivers out of F1 and we might have fewer accidents, but man, it would be boring.

[Mosha]

How about Vettel to Ferrari for 2015?

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/7832958/-Vettel-will-join-Ferrari-but-when-

[rixalex]

Don't know what the story is, but just noticed that F1fanatic is no longer with us, so to speak. Sorry about that. Always enjoyed her participation on the F1 threads. Will be missed...

[carmine]

How about Vettel to Ferrari for 2015?

http://www1.skysport...rrari-but-when-

I'd love to see the best two, imv, Vettel/Alonso together racing in the same equipment but i'm not sure that it could ever happen at Ferrari. they like building a team around a no1 and using the other as support. Neither of these two would have that and Alonso has already proven he doesn't like someone who's too close to his speed in the same team as with Hamilton when they were at McLaren.

mclaren made it work years ago no Senna/Prost and no team orders but the atmosphere was poisonous. Mindyou they still won 16 out of 17 races, the one they didn't saw Senna shunted off by a back marker!

[Mosha]

Practising for BKK?. BBC reports that the Indian GP organisers have employed a team of dog catchers, after a dog was seen on the track. 555

[rixalex]

Practising for BKK?. BBC reports that the Indian GP organisers have employed a team of dog catchers, after a dog was seen on the track. 555

Apparently they have considered using some sort of sonic device to keep the dogs and the cows off the track!

Reminds me of a small local concert i once went to in India in the main town square. Me and my mate sat expecting to be entertained by what was on the stage, but ended up being entertained by this poor Indian chap who was wearing a beret and had a long stick, and spent the whole evening running around the perimeter of the event, beating his stick at dogs who tried to do all they could to breach his best security efforts. Hilarious. Was like one of those games with a mallet where heads keep popping up from opposite corners.

[ignis]

Practising for BKK?. BBC reports that the Indian GP organisers have employed a team of dog catchers, after a dog was seen on the track. 555

So this year is dodge the dogs and look out for the catchers which maybe just behind them ? Did not see either in Practrice 1 and 2

[Guest]

I noted that I always go to formula1.com to check the times of the qualifications and races. As this is sometimes time consuming, decided to check if there is better alternatives.

Found this site: http://www.f1calendar.com/

You can get the F1 times (practices, qualifications, races) to be part of Google calendar or Outlook etc. I thought it might be worth of sharing.

[rixalex]

Anyone think Alonso is still in with a chance? The Red Bull has come strong just at the crucial time in the season. Barring some sort of a catastrophe, looks like WDC number three will be coming the way of Vettel quite soon. Alonso desperately needs a game changer this weekend.

[Mosha]

Anyone think Alonso is still in with a chance? The Red Bull has come strong just at the crucial time in the season. Barring some sort of a catastrophe, looks like WDC number three will be coming the way of Vettel quite soon. Alonso desperately needs a game changer this weekend.

Given Vettel is starting on the last row, you never know.

[rixalex]

Alonso desperately needs a game changer this weekend.

Ask and thou shalt receive!

Vettel starting at the back....should make things nice and interesting!

[Guest]

Alonso desperately needs a game changer this weekend.

Ask and thou shalt receive!

Vettel starting at the back....should make things nice and interesting!

Although not fair for Vettel, but I agree with you.. Vettel starting from the pit is going to be interesting

Ferrari and Alonso seems to constantly talk how great driver Alonso is. This is naturally part of the psychological game, but is Alonso actually so great driver? Now when Massa seems to be back in the game, he seems to have the same speed as Alonso as we saw in the past few races.

Or am I just being negative as I feel that Alonso "stole" Kimi's seat few years back?

[jpinx]

Alonso desperately needs a game changer this weekend.

Ask and thou shalt receive!

Vettel starting at the back....should make things nice and interesting!

Although not fair for Vettel, but I agree with you.. Vettel starting from the pit is going to be interesting

Ferrari and Alonso seems to constantly talk how great driver Alonso is. This is naturally part of the psychological game, but is Alonso actually so great driver? Now when Massa seems to be back in the game, he seems to have the same speed as Alonso as we saw in the past few races.

Or am I just being negative as I feel that Alonso "stole" Kimi's seat few years back?

Fair enough on Vettel seeing as Hamilton got the same treatment earlier this year. I see they're going to start him from the pitlane 'cos they're "investigating" the "problem" of not having enough fuel while they tried to get pole.

Meantime - back at the ranch - Kimi has a good chance of showing his worth compared to the other come-back kid who's now jacked it in for good this time. Hope they all avoid tangling with Maldonaldo at the start. Frustration levels will be super high if anyone gets taken out

Edited November 4, 2012 by jpinx

[rixalex]

Alonso desperately needs a game changer this weekend.

Ask and thou shalt receive!

Vettel starting at the back....should make things nice and interesting!

Although not fair for Vettel, but I agree with you.. Vettel starting from the pit is going to be interesting

Ferrari and Alonso seems to constantly talk how great driver Alonso is. This is naturally part of the psychological game, but is Alonso actually so great driver? Now when Massa seems to be back in the game, he seems to have the same speed as Alonso as we saw in the past few races.

Or am I just being negative as I feel that Alonso "stole" Kimi's seat few years back?

I think Alonso is a great driver but just how great is difficult to gauge, all the time he drives along side a team mate that offers him very little competition, or helps give us any idea how much extra Alonso is getting out of the car because of his driving.

[Mosha]

Alonso desperately needs a game changer this weekend.

Ask and thou shalt receive!

Vettel starting at the back....should make things nice and interesting!

Although not fair for Vettel, but I agree with you.. Vettel starting from the pit is going to be interesting

Ferrari and Alonso seems to constantly talk how great driver Alonso is. This is naturally part of the psychological game, but is Alonso actually so great driver? Now when Massa seems to be back in the game, he seems to have the same speed as Alonso as we saw in the past few races.

Or am I just being negative as I feel that Alonso "stole" Kimi's seat few years back?

Fair enough on Vettel seeing as Hamilton got the same treatment earlier this year. I see they're going to start him from the pitlane 'cos they're "investigating" the "problem" of not having enough fuel while they tried to get pole.

Meantime - back at the ranch - Kimi has a good chance of showing his worth compared to the other come-back kid who's now jacked it in for good this time. Hope they all avoid tangling with Maldonaldo at the start. Frustration levels will be super high if anyone gets taken out

Wasn't there also an "irregularity" with the fuel mixture?

[Guest]

Abu Dhabi was one heck of a race. Lot's of action from the start to the end.

Vettel starting from the pitlane, getting to 14th positon and then dropped back to the end of the pack after nose and tire changes, behind the safety car.. then again getting momentarily to second place.. and after tire another pit stop getting to 3rd. He is a great driver.

Sorry for Hamilton as he was driving a good race before his car broke down. What was the final reason? Gearbox failure?

The of course Kimi's first victory since he came back to F1. Great start for Kimi and great race overall. This victory will drop the rest of comeback pressure fom him.

Iceman was simply hilarious on the radio: "Yes yes yes yes, I'm doing all of that, stop telling me." and "Leave me alone. I know what I'm doing"

On podium.. well some Finnish expressions just does not translate so well to English. Then again I'm pretty sure he did smile up there, but can not be 100% sure..

[tinfoilhat]

I noted that I always go to formula1.com to check the times of the qualifications and races. As this is sometimes time consuming, decided to check if there is better alternatives.

Found this site: http://www.f1calendar.com/

You can get the F1 times (practices, qualifications, races) to be part of Google calendar or Outlook etc. I thought it might be worth of sharing.

time consuming? takes about the same amount of time, in fact it is more characters to type.

the race tonight was brilliant, Webber turned goat, Hamilton explodes, Vettel charges, raikonnen wins, button also ran.

Edited November 4, 2012 by tinfoilhat

[Mosha]

Best comment of the race was from Kimi. "Just leave me alone, I know what I'm doing!"

[lomatopo]

Not that I like him much but what Sebastian Vettel did in yesterday's Abu Dhabi GP was simply amazing.

Congrats to Kimi and Lotus-Renault.

[Mosha]

Expect to see a new t-shirt in the Lotus garage, courtesy of Kimi's retort.

[rixalex]

Not that I like him much but what Sebastian Vettel did in yesterday's Abu Dhabi GP was simply amazing.

Congrats to Kimi and Lotus-Renault.

Yep it was amazing drive and one that Ferrari and Alonso must have been quite shocked and disheartened to see. I really did think, as they must of done, that Vettel's grid penalty was just the opportunity they needed to open up a bit of a points gap. To have only clawed a few points back must really have hurt. Vettel looks unassailable now. One thing you do have to say about his drive however, was that the safety cars were completely instrumental in how he finished. I think without them he would have just got into the top ten, and that would have been it. But those safety cars allowed him to claw back so much time. Of course he still had to take the chance, and drive well, and he did. He could have blown it at the end with the pass on Button. I think a lot of other drivers would have been a bit more aggressive and there could have been a coming together. The fact that Button didn't is what makes him both a strong driver and a weak driver. Strong in that there is a good chance of him consistently bringing the car home, weak in that he lacks a bit of that killer instinct and ruthlessness that winners tend to need.

Anyway, looking forward to the last few races and hope at the very least, it remains all to play for up until the last corner of the last race.

[dominique355]

I noted that I always go to formula1.com to check the times of the qualifications and races. As this is sometimes time consuming, decided to check if there is better alternatives.

Found this site: http://www.f1calendar.com/

You can get the F1 times (practices, qualifications, races) to be part of Google calendar or Outlook etc. I thought it might be worth of sharing.

Thanks for the tip, although I miss a conversion of the session times to my local time.

As an alternative may I suggest an app (for Android) named "F1 Timing 2012" , which shows just about everything you need.

[lomatopo]

Any comments on the new F1 track at Austin, TX? I've been watching some of the practice sessions - on HD no less - and it looks interesting, with some changes in elevation.

And the Ron Howard film, "Rush" - which retells the 1976 title duel between James Hunt and Niki Lauda - due next year looks to be a great F1 film? I still like the 1966 John Frankenheimer film, "Grand Prix".

[rixalex]

Any comments on the new F1 track at Austin, TX? I've been watching some of the practice sessions - on HD no less - and it looks interesting, with some changes in elevation.

And the Ron Howard film, "Rush" - which retells the 1976 title duel between James Hunt and Niki Lauda - due next year looks to be a great F1 film? I still like the 1966 John Frankenheimer film, "Grand Prix".

Track looks great.

Best F1 movie is "Senna". Ron Howard's new movie will have to go some way to beat it. Looking forward to seeing it though.