Converting To Thai Citizenship

[tamvine]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

[Maestro]

TheChiefJustice was the latest one I have seen mentioned in this forum. See his topic here:

[Arkady]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

The most recent batch of final approvals a couple of months ago was around six people. One of them took five years. No idea how long the others took. The fastest I know of in recent years was some one known personally to me who got it in 18 months but that seems to be exceptional. Three years is generally considered quite fast and five years not unusual. I have come across cases that took 8 and 11 years respectively (in the case of the 11 year application I saw the physical naturalization certificate and the date of application). Unfortunately there is no transparency is the process, which is not subject to judicial review, and once applications get to the Interior Ministry for consideration there are in a black hole where very few people can influence matters, although many try to claim they can. At least there are approvals every year, unlike the permanent residence process which has been effectively in lock down mode since 2006, despite encouraging noises made this year.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Arkady

[scorecard]

Well here's another slight twist.

I've had PR for around 16 years, and I always thought (didn't check) that I would never qualify for full Thai citizenship.

But a few years back I met a guy just 32 years old, lived and worked in Thailand -since his early 20s, started his own quite successful export business, married to a Thai professional lady (not from a hi-so or influential family), and he showed me his Thai passport.

So I asked my lawyer to check. Lawyers answer was based on the points system and how you accumulate points. I had a good score on all factors except the 'age on application' factor, which basically put me well out of the needed total score. From memory I was about 59 years old at the time.

Does anybody know if the scoring on the 'age on application' factor has changed?

Thanks.

[samran]

Well here's another slight twist.

I've had PR for around 16 years, and I always thought (didn't check) that I would never qualify for full Thai citizenship.

But a few years back I met a guy just 32 years old, lived and worked in Thailand -since his early 20s, started his own quite successful export business, married to a Thai professional lady (not from a hi-so or influential family), and he showed me his Thai passport.

So I asked my lawyer to check. Lawyers answer was based on the points system and how you accumulate points. I had a good score on all factors except the 'age on application' factor, which basically put me well out of the needed total score. From memory I was about 59 years old at the time.

Does anybody know if the scoring on the 'age on application' factor has changed?

Thanks.

are you still filing tax returns?

[NewlyMintedThai]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

Got mine a year and a half years ago. Process took three years.

[TheChiefJustice]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

Arkady is correct. The most recent bunch of approvals were published in the Government Gazette on May 30th 2012. There were 12 approvals - four of whom, including me, are farang (two Americans, one Australian and one Brit).

I got my Thai ID card and passport at the end of July. The entire process took exactly five years.

Edited August 19, 2012 by TheChiefJustice

[scorecard]

Well here's another slight twist.

I've had PR for around 16 years, and I always thought (didn't check) that I would never qualify for full Thai citizenship.

But a few years back I met a guy just 32 years old, lived and worked in Thailand -since his early 20s, started his own quite successful export business, married to a Thai professional lady (not from a hi-so or influential family), and he showed me his Thai passport.

So I asked my lawyer to check. Lawyers answer was based on the points system and how you accumulate points. I had a good score on all factors except the 'age on application' factor, which basically put me well out of the needed total score. From memory I was about 59 years old at the time.

Does anybody know if the scoring on the 'age on application' factor has changed?

Thanks.

are you still filing tax returns?

Maybe.

[scorecard]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

Arkady is correct. The most recent bunch of approvals were published in the Government Gazette on May 30th 2012. There were 12 approvals - four of whom, including me, are farang (two Americans, one Australian and one Brit).

I got my Thai ID card and passport at the end of July. The entire process took exactly five years.

Would you please share some details about 'age on application, either yourself or others that you encountered in this 'journey'.

If the question is sentitive, they please ignore it.

And congratulations!

Edited August 19, 2012 by scorecard

[NewlyMintedThai]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

Arkady is correct. The most recent bunch of approvals were published in the Government Gazette on May 30th 2012. There were 12 approvals - four of whom, including me, are farang (two Americans, one Australian and one Brit).

I got my Thai ID card and passport at the end of July. The entire process took exactly five years.

Would you please share some details about 'age on application, either yourself or others that you encountered in this 'journey'.

If the question is sentitive, they please ignore it.

And congratulations!

I was in my early 40's when I applied. I have no idea how the point system works.

[Arkady]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

Arkady is correct. The most recent bunch of approvals were published in the Government Gazette on May 30th 2012. There were 12 approvals - four of whom, including me, are farang (two Americans, one Australian and one Brit).

I got my Thai ID card and passport at the end of July. The entire process took exactly five years.

Would you please share some details about 'age on application, either yourself or others that you encountered in this 'journey'.

If the question is sentitive, they please ignore it.

And congratulations!

I was in my early 40's when I applied. I have no idea how the point system works.

I have attached my own translation of the blueprint on points allocation that was introduced in 2010 which I believe is unchanged today. The Interior Ministry used not to publish these details but started to do so via Special Branch not long before the points system was slightly overhauled in 2010. I also have details of the previous points system. Basically it seems to have been adjusted to take into account the 2008 amendments to the Act which allowed males with Thai wives a waiver from the requirement to have permanent residence and (theoretically) a knowledge of Thai. Thus points for merely having a Thai wife (now a given for most applicants) and child were axed and points for having permanent residence (no longer a given) were increased. Tests of reading and writing were introduced for the first time for an additional 5 points, although these are optional, as is singing the Royal and National Anthems for those with Thai wives. There is also now a multiple choice "Knowledge of Thailand" test. You can get full points in the language part with a decent intermediate knowledge of Thai and ability to sing the two songs and the "knowledge" test is not too difficult either. However, those with very poor Thai will not be able to handle the interviews, even if they can pick up enough points elsewhere and risk being rejected at the next stage which is the interview at the Ministry. The move to introduce greater transparency by publishing the points system is to be applauded, although it is a pity that nothing has been done to make the process at the Ministry less opaque.

As you will see, Ministry appears to regard applicants in their 40s with most favour.

Points Allocation 2010 EN.doc

Edited August 20, 2012 by Arkady

[TheChiefJustice]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

Arkady is correct. The most recent bunch of approvals were published in the Government Gazette on May 30th 2012. There were 12 approvals - four of whom, including me, are farang (two Americans, one Australian and one Brit).

I got my Thai ID card and passport at the end of July. The entire process took exactly five years.

Would you please share some details about 'age on application, either yourself or others that you encountered in this 'journey'.

If the question is sentitive, they please ignore it.

And congratulations!

I was 40 when I applied.

[tamvine]

when was the last time someone foreigner got the thai nationality and how long did it take?

Arkady is correct. The most recent bunch of approvals were published in the Government Gazette on May 30th 2012. There were 12 approvals - four of whom, including me, are farang (two Americans, one Australian and one Brit).

I got my Thai ID card and passport at the end of July. The entire process took exactly five years.

Congratulations, Just wondering if I may get more guidance from you as applying for the nationality this month. Possible to communicate on email my email is ((removed)) Also could you advice if you ever needed any influence other than normal procedure? Thanks for advice. Edited August 30, 2012 by lopburi3
email removed per rules

[Tomtomtom69]

I think that if you are eligible and plan to spend a significant amount of time in Thailand, possibly with little or no intention of leaving the country ever, then obtaining citizenship is the way to go. We could go on and on about how much discrimination still exists in Thailand towards people who don't "fit the Thai look" but with citizenship, you can at least prove that you have rights that non-citizens don't have. Although on the language issue, I find it hard to consider anyone in any country a "citizen" if they don't hold fluent or near native command of the host language, speaking and reading/writing included. This is particularly important in Thailand where it's hard enough to "prove" you are Thai if you don't "fit the Thai look" as I mentioned before; but it's a lot easier if you at least speak the local lingo. I am fluent in Thai, yet I have only spent a relatively short 1.5 years working here and at other times just come for travel, business or visiting friends/my girlfriend (soon to be wife) etc. It's not that hard...if I can learn Thai, so too can most other people given some effort, I'd say.

I don't see the difference between obtaining citizenship of a western country and Thai citizenship. If you live in a country long enough, you should not only have the right to seek it (and as this thread has proven, quite a few people here have obtained Thai citizenship) but also, you should assert this right. Most western countries and an increasing number of other countries worldwide are allowing dual citizenship. Consequently, Thai citizenship will come in extremely handy in terms of both living inside Thailand without restrictions, but also travel to certain countries without a visa (think all ASEAN countries except Myanmar? and even Russia!) the latter requiring a visa for nationals of most western countries! Then you can use your western passport for travel to other countries for which a visa is required on a Thai passport.

[tamvine]

I applied for the Nationality last week. Police dept. Can someone help me with suggestions on below:

1. When I go to embassy of my present nationality to confirm that I am ready to surrender my nationality, will the embassy send a letter to the police directly or they will give me letter to submit. whatever information you may give on this will be helpful.

2. Is it a MUST to have a THAI name in case you get Thai Nationality? Can you still maintain your existing name?

[NewlyMintedThai]

I applied for the Nationality last week. Police dept. Can someone help me with suggestions on below:

1. When I go to embassy of my present nationality to confirm that I am ready to surrender my nationality, will the embassy send a letter to the police directly or they will give me letter to submit. whatever information you may give on this will be helpful.

2. Is it a MUST to have a THAI name in case you get Thai Nationality? Can you still maintain your existing name?

The answer to the second question is definitely "no".

[moe666]

The physicist is correct in his assertion that males who are not working in Thailand are ineligible to apply for Thai citizenship, even if they are married to Thai women and have massive incomes from outside the country. The 1965 Nationality Act clearly states that candidates for naturalization must have a profession in Thailand. So this is not a new requirement designed to discriminate against the large communities of foreigners who came to Thailand to retire after spending their careers working somewhere else.

There is no longer any legal requirement to speak and understand Thai for those married to Thais, since that required was waived in the 2008 amendments to the Act, and there has never been a requirement to read and write and Thai. Nevertheless, since it is Thai citizenship we are talking about here, all the interviews are conducted in Thai and the assessors are likely to conclude not unreasonably that some one who cannot communicate effectively in Thai is unlikely to blend well into Thai society and reject the application.

Whilst earning a large salary seems to be viewed favorably as evidence of ability to support oneself and dependents and paying a lot of Thai tax is viewed as making a significant financial contribution to Thai society rather than looking to gain benefits from universal healthcare etc, money is certainly not the be all and end all. The assessors look at the applicant as a total package ("paap ruam" - big picture - is how it was described to me) based on attitude, outlook and ability to become assimilated into Thai society as well as contributions made to it, financial or otherwise.

It is noteworthy that some lecturers at government universities on modest salaries have been granted Thai citizenship, while some extremely wealthy individuals with poor Thai who thought their money could buy anything have been officially rejected (not just left waiting for years without any news.)

It is regrettable that the process lacks transparency and is extremely slow but it is not totally discriminatory. Whether foreign retirees who have never worked in Thailand and settle in the country late in life should be made eligible is debatable. Since their ability to assimilate into Thai society is limited by the their age and the fact that they can't interact with Thais through the workforce, I personally don't think so. The law is nearly 50 years old and it will be take many more years before this relatively new foreign community comes onto its radar screen. Personally I think it would be much more suitable to allow foreign retirees a special scheme for permanent residence or 10 year renewable visas for those that can demonstrate the financial resources to stay long-term and pay for their own healthcare etc, without having to know Thai or prove ability to assimilate into Thai society which is unrealistic for over 60s. However, when this does come, it will probably be accompanied by a significant tightening of the conditions for one year retirement visas and marriage visas.

Well, the news about retirees not working in Thailand being ineligible for citizenship is sad to hear! I have lived in Thailand nearly five years and have been considering applying for citizenship. My wife is Thai/USA dual, as is my daughter who was born in the USA when we all lived there. My wife received her USA citizenship after 3 years of residency because she was married to me (it is five years for a single person).

As a retiree, I am happy to live in my adopted country. I pay taxes every day (VAT) and contribute to the support of my wife's family. I live on Phuket but in a small village where my neighbors are Thai. I am disappointed to learn that I cannot even apply successfully for Thai citizenship! I do live the life of a good Thai citizen contributing to society.

I would ask how your wife did it in 3 years, as a friend of mine married to a Philippino tonight said it is 4 more years and she has already been in the country nearly 3. When she arrived had all the paper work green card and SS number. Also a friend married to a Thai lady calculated it would take his wife 5 years and that is after being in the country 2 years, they now live in Bangkok

[tamvine]

Is it required for the person who applied for nationality to have work permit all times? Do they check if he is holding work permit at time of issuing the nationality?

[Arkady]

I applied for the Nationality last week. Police dept. Can someone help me with suggestions on below:

1. When I go to embassy of my present nationality to confirm that I am ready to surrender my nationality, will the embassy send a letter to the police directly or they will give me letter to submit. whatever information you may give on this will be helpful.

2. Is it a MUST to have a THAI name in case you get Thai Nationality? Can you still maintain your existing name?

Special Branch will give you a formal letter in Thai addressed to your embassy explaining this new regulation and referencing various sections of the Nationality Act. Of course your embassy has better things to do than read this and you will have to explain to them what you want which is unclear in the letter anyway. This is a brief declaration you will make that will be signed by a consular officer as having been made before him or her. You will have this translated into Thai but I don't think they require it notarized by the Foreign Ministry (check this with SB). If you want a sample wording, you may PM me.

You are required to submit a Thai name that has been approved by your district office but this is an anachronism because they no longer inscribe this name on your naturalization certificate. In fact you have to continue to use your foreign name, although you are free to change your name any time you wish and can change it to the name you have reserved, if you like. My take is that this requirement is retained by the MoI so that they can ask applicants why they chose that particular name at the MoI interview, knowing that no one chooses the name for themselves. Hint: "I have no idea what it means" or "I can't remember what name my wife chose for me" is the wrong answer. I am not sure if the MoI expect applicants to voluntarily use these names after they have been naturalized. Taking a Thai name increases chances of assimilation but should also be viewed by them as a national security concern, since letting people have two names should worry them more than letting them have two nationalities.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Arkady

[Arkady]

Is it required for the person who applied for nationality to have work permit all times? Do they check if he is holding work permit at time of issuing the nationality?

This is a very good question that is dealt with in the big thread, "Story of my Thai nationality". You definitely need a work permit to show them when you go for the interview at the MoI. You will not necessarily be asked for one when you finally go to get your naturalization certificate but, if you are asked for one and don't have one, they could legally refuse to issue your naturalization certificate. This is because the Nationality Act specifies that having a profession in Thailand is a requirement for naturalization. This seems rather harsh now that they are taking many years to process applications but certainly no one at the MOI cares about this. PR is different, since the law is not as specific about a profession and you can retire after applying for PR without this affecting your application.

[tamvine]

Is it required for the person who applied for nationality to have work permit all times? Do they check if he is holding work permit at time of issuing the nationality?

This is a very good question that is dealt with in the big thread, "Story of my Thai nationality". You definitely need a work permit to show them when you go for the interview at the MoI. You will not necessarily be asked for one when you finally go to get your naturalization certificate but, if you are asked for one and don't have one, they could legally refuse to issue your naturalization certificate. This is because the Nationality Act specifies that having a profession in Thailand is a requirement for naturalization. This seems rather harsh now that they are taking many years to process applications but certainly no one at the MOI cares about this. PR is different, since the law is not as specific about a profession and you can retire after applying for PR without this affecting your application.

Arkady, Thank you for the reply and now going thru the Topic which is really helpful. I have further question. I was just approved for PR and had applied for the Thai nationality prior to the same. In general guidelines it is said you can apply for Thai Nationality after 5 years as PR. Will it affect my case?

[Arkady]

Is it required for the person who applied for nationality to have work permit all times? Do they check if he is holding work permit at time of issuing the nationality?

This is a very good question that is dealt with in the big thread, "Story of my Thai nationality". You definitely need a work permit to show them when you go for the interview at the MoI. You will not necessarily be asked for one when you finally go to get your naturalization certificate but, if you are asked for one and don't have one, they could legally refuse to issue your naturalization certificate. This is because the Nationality Act specifies that having a profession in Thailand is a requirement for naturalization. This seems rather harsh now that they are taking many years to process applications but certainly no one at the MOI cares about this. PR is different, since the law is not as specific about a profession and you can retire after applying for PR without this affecting your application.

Arkady, Thank you for the reply and now going thru the Topic which is really helpful. I have further question. I was just approved for PR and had applied for the Thai nationality prior to the same. In general guidelines it is said you can apply for Thai Nationality after 5 years as PR. Will it affect my case?

I didn't know you could apply for nationality while waiting for PR. I heard about someone who withdrew their PR application in order to apply for nationality. On the other hand they might have been badly advised. I did not meet this person personally and anyway there is nothing specific in the regulations against it. Since the the application has been accepted by Special Branch it should be OK. I think it just means that you apply on the grounds of having a Thai wife. Since you didn't have PR at the time of application, it will not be taken into consideration at all and it doesn't matter that you haven't had it for 5 years. Even if you applied after receiving PR, you would have applied on the basis of being married to a Thai only, if your PR is less than 5 years old. With a Thai wife you get exemption from singing the two anthems and a new Thai test that has just been introduced. I am the other way round from you. I applied on the basis of more than 5 years' PR and had been married to a Thai for less than 3 years (no chidren) which doesn't count. So I don't get exemption from the singing.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Arkady

[sas_cars]

Is it required for the person who applied for nationality to have work permit all times? Do they check if he is holding work permit at time of issuing the nationality?

This is a very good question that is dealt with in the big thread, "Story of my Thai nationality". You definitely need a work permit to show them when you go for the interview at the MoI. You will not necessarily be asked for one when you finally go to get your naturalization certificate but, if you are asked for one and don't have one, they could legally refuse to issue your naturalization certificate. This is because the Nationality Act specifies that having a profession in Thailand is a requirement for naturalization. This seems rather harsh now that they are taking many years to process applications but certainly no one at the MOI cares about this. PR is different, since the law is not as specific about a profession and you can retire after applying for PR without this affecting your application.

Arkady, Thank you for the reply and now going thru the Topic which is really helpful. I have further question. I was just approved for PR and had applied for the Thai nationality prior to the same. In general guidelines it is said you can apply for Thai Nationality after 5 years as PR. Will it affect my case?

I didn't know you could apply for nationality while waiting for PR. I heard about someone who withdrew their PR application in order to apply for nationality. On the other hand they might have been badly advised. I did not meet this person personally and anyway there is nothing specific in the regulations against it. Since the the application has been accepted by Special Branch it should be OK. I think it just means that you apply on the grounds of having a Thai wife. Since you didn't have PR at the time of application, it will not be taken into consideration at all and it doesn't matter that you haven't had it for 5 years. Even if you applied after receiving PR, you would have applied on the basis of being married to a Thai only, if your PR is less than 5 years old. With a Thai wife you get exemption from singing the two anthems and a new Thai test that has just been introduced. I am the other way round from you. I applied on the basis of more than 5 years' PR and had been married to a Thai for less than 3 years (no chidren) which doesn't count. So I don't get exemption from the singing.

What kind of new thai test?

[Arkady]

What kind of new thai test?

It is very similar to the General Knowledge of Thailand test that was introduced in 2010 in line with the new points system. Multiple choice questions on issues to do with Thailand's basic constitutional structure, applying for naturalisation and things like that, You won't have to do it, if you qualify as married to a Thai. If you do need to do it, Special Branch can provide details.

[RegularReader]

Is it required for the person who applied for nationality to have work permit all times? Do they check if he is holding work permit at time of issuing the nationality?

This is a very good question that is dealt with in the big thread, "Story of my Thai nationality". You definitely need a work permit to show them when you go for the interview at the MoI. You will not necessarily be asked for one when you finally go to get your naturalization certificate but, if you are asked for one and don't have one, they could legally refuse to issue your naturalization certificate. This is because the Nationality Act specifies that having a profession in Thailand is a requirement for naturalization. This seems rather harsh now that they are taking many years to process applications but certainly no one at the MOI cares about this. PR is different, since the law is not as specific about a profession and you can retire after applying for PR without this affecting your application.

Arkady, Thank you for the reply and now going thru the Topic which is really helpful. I have further question. I was just approved for PR and had applied for the Thai nationality prior to the same. In general guidelines it is said you can apply for Thai Nationality after 5 years as PR. Will it affect my case?

I am 65 years old Type "O" visa with yearly extensions since 2000, and had a work permit for 8 years - meaning I paid taxes throughout that time. Earlier this year I finished working for the company and handed back my Work Permit. For this year's extension I used the THB400k married to a Thai. I may start a new job/work permit in the new year. My question is to ask if 1. not currently having a work permit and 2. being over 65, will these prevent me from applying for PR ?

[Mario2008]

Nor working makes it impossible to get PR, great weight is being laid to you being an asset to Thai society in which your work and income pays an important role. Being 65+ is will give you less point.

Being married to a Thai you could skip PR and apply for Thai nationality in the future.

[Arkady]

Nor working makes it impossible to get PR, great weight is being laid to you being an asset to Thai society in which your work and income pays an important role. Being 65+ is will give you less point.

Being married to a Thai you could skip PR and apply for Thai nationality in the future.

You need to be working for this too. Whereas for PR, you only need to be working at the time of application, for citizenship you need to continue working throughout the process which could take many years. You need notarised salaries tax receipts for three complete tax years for both.

[RegularReader]

Nor working makes it impossible to get PR, great weight is being laid to you being an asset to Thai society in which your work and income pays an important role. Being 65+ is will give you less point.

Being married to a Thai you could skip PR and apply for Thai nationality in the future.

Understand that, but need to let go my Australian passport.

More as Arkady pointed out earlier you need to have a work permit at the start of the process.

[Mario2008]

You do not have to give up your current nationality, although they will try to push you in that direction. You only have to sign an intention, not actualy go ahead with it.

[Arkady]

You do not have to give up your current nationality, although they will try to push you in that direction. You only have to sign an intention, not actualy go ahead with it.

I also note that, if you search online in Thai, you can find comments from MoI officials urging Thais who have acquired another nationality to give up their Thai nationality and to make sure their children give up their Thai nationality at age 20, if they decide to retain their foreign nationality. However, there is no mention of the benefits to them of renouncing their Thai nationality and it's funny that the MoI has remained silent on this topic in respect of Thaksin's multiple foreign nationalities.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Arkady