First Extension Based On Retirement - Am I Prepared?

[maesai]

American turning 50 later this month. I have an appointment with Chiang Mai Immigration shortly after my birthday to apply for an extension of stay based on retirement.

I'm currently here on a tourist visa. Wanted to check that I will have all the necessary documents when I go.

This is what I plan to bring...

An income affidavit from the US Consulate stating that I have a monthly income in excess of the required 65,000 baht a month.

A completed tm86 application for change of visa form to convert my tourist visa to a non-immigrant O visa.

A partially completed tm7 application for extension of stay based on retirement.

Three months statements for my US checking account showing monthly deposits and ATM withdrawals (into Thailand) in excess of 65,000 baht a month.

My Thai bankbook (and copies) showing funds coming in and going out.

Copies of utility bills showing my name and address in Thailand.

Photos and copies of all used pages of my passport.

Extra copies of everything.

Cash.

Am I forgetting anything here?

Thanks for any input.

[Jingthing]

Three months statements for my US checking account showing monthly deposits and ATM withdrawals (into Thailand) in excess of 65,000 baht a month.

That's kind of overkill as there is no requirement at all to transfer the 65K per month into Thailand. My advice is absolutely DO NOT offer that unless you are asked, which you won't be.

Also, as you're an American, there is always the chance they will ask you about the source of income, as they know the U.S. consulate takes your word. It might be prudent to have some documentation (again DO NOT offer unless asked) showing proof of the source of the income.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[maesai]

What about a medical certificate? Is that no longer necessary? I saw an old post the mentioned getting one of those.

[Jingthing]

What about a medical certificate? Is that no longer necessary? I saw an old post the mentioned getting one of those.

You absolutely do NOT need that. Nor do you need a police report from your home country. Those are required for O-A visas done in home countries, NOT needed for retirement extensions.

[maesai]

My income comes from my investments. My bank statements show the monthly deposits coming from my brokerage account. Will that suffice as "source of income"?

[Jingthing]

My income comes from my investments. My bank statements show the monthly deposits coming from my brokerage account. Will that suffice as "source of income"?

No. If you really want to prepared if they ask for documentation, which they probably will not, you should consider bringing the evidence of the investment income from the source, which you say is from brokerage accounts. If you are considering gross stock sales as income, no, I don't think that is considered income by Thai immigration standards and/or embassies that do require proof of income from their nationals for the letter. Dividends, interest, annuity payouts, etc. yes.

How would just deposit streams be proof of anything? Think about it.

I am not suggesting you worry about this much. However, if you are playing games such as claiming gross stock sales as income, personally, I would be at least a little worried (if they ask, not good).

You seem to be under the impression that Thai immigration is mostly concerned about flows into accounts, abroad and into Thailand, for those claiming income. I am suggesting, no, the emphasis is that they want to be convinced you actually have that income. The embassy letter should technically be good enough, but really, it is no secret to anyone that the U.S. doesn't require proof of the income to get the letter. Anyone can play games with money flows.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[maesai]

The income is from a combination of dividend paying stocks, REITS, and mutual funds (held with my broker) and capital gains from stock trades. All of this is transferred monthly into my checking account (the same firm as my broker) and then pulled from ATMs here. I suppose I can bring brokerage statements, but I can't imagine they would understand them. The bank statement is much simpler. Yes, I was under the impression that they were most concerned with evidence of funds coming from abroad. Bank statements, ATM receipts, etc...

Thanks for your help.

[Jingthing]

The income is from a combination of dividend paying stocks, REITS, and mutual funds (held with my broker) and capital gains from stock trades. All of this is transferred monthly into my checking account (the same firm as my broker) and then pulled from ATMs here. I suppose I can bring brokerage statements, but I can't imagine they would understand them. The bank statement is much simpler. Yes, I was under the impression that they were most concerned with evidence of funds coming from abroad. Bank statements, ATM receipts, etc...

Thanks for your help.

OK, we're getting into some interesting, grey area topics that haven't really been discussed in a while here.

It's going to be difficult to get firm final answers on some of these, so I'll just present some food for thought and opinions.

For the bank account method, obviously the proof needed is money in a Thai bank. Flows are not the proof. Money in the bank is.

So you're fully using the income method.

Ask yourself this, would an embassy that DOES require proof consider capital gains on stock sales to be income qualifying for their letter? I think -- NO. I know on your IRS form your annual capital gains on stock sales are considered income, but I don't think that is income that Thai immigration would generally consider income.

Dividends and interest income, personally, I would consider that income that probably Thai immigration would accept and probably some embassies for letters as well.

Of course, dividend and interest income is messy and variable. It changes every year or even every day. You lose it if you sell the underlying assets. It is nothing like set income from rents, FIXED annuity payouts, or pensions, etc. So even dividends and interest could be a grey area.

Income from rents from properties abroad. These can probably usually be legitimately used and proven. I know not your situation but another example of qualifying income.

Will they ask for anything other than the embassy letter? Nobody can tell you the answer. Odds are probably not in any given year, but they have the right to at any time. Over the years, there is some anecdotal evidence that Americans are targeted more for proof, for obvious reasons.

Will your attempt to just show income FLOW satisfy their question? Sure, it is possible. Nobody can tell you for sure. But MUCH BETTER, would be proof of the income source, with hopefully an ACCEPTED source for income purposes.

You're right, they aren't certified accountants, but I think most of them get the concept IF they ask for documentation to back up your INCOME claims, that the gold standard would be proof of the income source as opposed to just showing flows without explanation of the source.

Another question. You planned to show the 65K income flows as proof (if needed). Just curious, were you ACTUALLY going to sell enough equity assets annually to meet the 65K monthly requirement ANNUALIZED? In case you weren't, isn't this a kind of fraud? After all, if it happens that most of your claimed income is stock capital gains rather than the gross amount of stock sales, that could represent very large sales to make 65K per month. (Sorry, just asking.)

Consider the most typically claimed income -- pensions. Most people can easily get a document proving an annual pension payment (private of government). There is little grey area there. Capital gains profits, not only is that a grey area, my own opinion is that you will be trying to do something that is not fully Kosher. Sorry, others may disagree though!

Sounds like you are probably going to take a chance with this tactic. Good luck and if there is a problem, maybe you can just try the bank account method as it sounds like you have assets.

Of course, your first extension they might take the letter without question and you might assume you are in the clear. You will be, for one year. The next year, and the next, etc. if you are using the same method, you will still be in the situation of having a potentially questionable qualification.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[TerryLH]

Jingthing, are you actually accusing the OP of fraud?

OP, you'll be okay with what you listed in the original post.

Don't show them the checking account info unless they specifically ask for it.

They might want to see the bankbook, but again, show it only if they want to see it. They won't be looking for 65k coming and going, just that you have money to live on.

It's really an easy process.

Good luck.

Terry

[maesai]

Umm, I don't think it is spelled clearly anywhere exactly what an "ACCEPTED" income source is - as far as I can tell.

I said the income, actually more than 65,000, is a combination of dividend paying stocks, REITS (real-estate), and profits from stock trades. There are also some limited partnerships that pay me income. I also have business interests abroad that earn income, but wasn't going to include that income in the affidavit.

I wonder if it might be good to have a copy of my most recent 1040 tax return in the file as well.

[moe666]

I use the income method with letter from the embassy. The amount I claim on the letter is the amount that is deposited in my credit union account each month. I print out 3 months of statements and highlite the deposits these deposits are from social security, navy retirement, and another retirement fund. I have never been asked for proof of income from immigration other than the letter. Nor have I been asked for proof of address although I have it covered. I donot volunteer anything but I have supporting documentation just in case.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, are you actually accusing the OP of fraud?

OP, you'll be okay with what you listed in the original post.

Don't show them the checking account info unless they specifically ask for it.

They might want to see the bankbook, but again, show it only if they want to see it. They won't be looking for 65k coming and going, just that you have money to live on.

It's really an easy process.

Good luck.

Terry

It's easy unless you get unlucky and they ask for proof of the income source beyond the embassy letter if there happens to be something possibly questionable about your claimed income. Yes. I am suggesting capital gains from random stock sales MAY be seen as questionable if they get that deep in the questioning. I also question if embassies that do require documented proof of income would generally accept capital gains from stock sales.

On your question about fraud, you ask a loaded question out of context. I'm happy to let what I wrote stand ... in context.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I use the income method with letter from the embassy. The amount I claim on the letter is the amount that is deposited in my credit union account each month. I print out 3 months of statements and highlite the deposits these deposits are from social security, navy retirement, and another retirement fund. I have never been asked for proof of income from immigration other than the letter. Nor have I been asked for proof of address although I have it covered. I donot volunteer anything but I have supporting documentation just in case.

Just because you have never been asked to back up your embassy letter, doesn't mean it doesn't happen sometimes to others or that it won't happen to the OP. I do agree NEVER offer any documentation above the explicitly required until/unless requested/demanded. BTW, there is nothing grey area about your income sources. I am suggesting (prove me wrong, I am welcome to hear it) there may be something grey area about the OP's income sources. Edited April 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Umm, I don't think it is spelled clearly anywhere exactly what an "ACCEPTED" income source is - as far as I can tell.

I said the income, actually more than 65,000, is a combination of dividend paying stocks, REITS (real-estate), and profits from stock trades. There are also some limited partnerships that pay me income. I also have business interests abroad that earn income, but wasn't going to include that income in the affidavit.

I wonder if it might be good to have a copy of my most recent 1040 tax return in the file as well.

I can tell you this. Qualifying income DOES go beyond just pensions. My question is does immigration (and embassies that do require proof for the letter) consider capital gains from stock sales (not to mention dividends, interest, etc.) as qualifying income.

As far as tax returns, that certainly isn't a normal thing Thai immigration would ask for (or understand ... as if most of us understand them so well). Couldn't hurt to bring it but never offer it unless the questioning gets hardcore. The thing about stock trades is you can sell as much or as little as you want annually. It's hardly the kind of stable income most countries including Thailand have in mind when enforcing predictable continuing income stream requirements for expat retirees. I still maintain this is a grey area. Happy to be proven wrong but just saying it as I see it.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[w11guy]

If your income is from multiple sources, variable and a bit messy then it may be better to just put 800,000 baht in a bank account and use that method instead of the income method.

[NancyL]

Maesai, Hubby and I have retirement extensions thru CM Immigration and the chances of being asked to demonstrate your sources of income are very, very slim. Jingthing, however, is doing you a favor by bringing up these issues, so you have a chance to think about them and some up with a one sentence reply, the simplier the better, if you're asked.

For example, Hubby has presented his US consulate income letter and been asked "What are your sources of income?" His answer, "Social Security benefit and private pension from a previous employer. Would you like to see some statements (as he reaches into a small portfolio as if to draw out paperwork)?" Answer, "no, that's OK."

Another example, I use 800,000 baht savings in Thailand method. Deposited the money years ago and never touched the account. Question "there is no activity with this account. How do you support yourself here?" Answer, "husband has pension income big enough to support both of us. Would you like to see? (As reach into my handbag and pull out a Bangkok Bank blue passbook for our joint account.) Answer: a wave of the hand for me to put the passbook back in my handbag, as the Immigration officer goes back to checking things on the forms.

Moral of the story is to dress nicely, be polite, bring back-up documents but don't overanswer questions or hand them paperwork not required unless they specifically ask for it.

They are mainly concerned that you have sufficient financial resources to take care of yourself, especially if you have a medical emergency and that you're not working in Thailand.

Oh yeah, I think you left out one key item in your OP. You'll need to bring your passport, of course. Be sure it doesn't expire during the life of your retirement extension and that you have enough pages in it.

Edited April 17, 2012 by NancyL

[hgma]

I just finished (15 min ago) my extension of stay based on retirement,and 3 dependents extensions of stay.

New in NK

embassy letter was enough......didnt need copy of bankbook or statement.

The whole procedure is computerized now, 90 day reporting day included.

New is the photography of all family members including me.

Rest as usual.....very cooperative and no hick-ups.

hgma

[TerryLH]

"I wonder if it might be good to have a copy of my most recent 1040 tax return in the file as well."

You're starting to overthink what is a simple process.

US Embassy might ask for info, you could use a 1040 for that, I suppose. Not immigration.

"Be sure it doesn't expire during the life of your retirement extension and that you have enough pages in it."

Why? And how many pages are enough?

Expiring passports are normal. Immigration has a simple, free procedure for dealing with it.

Terry

[Jingthing]

"I wonder if it might be good to have a copy of my most recent 1040 tax return in the file as well."

You're starting to overthink what is a simple process.

US Embassy might ask for info, you could use a 1040 for that, I suppose. Not immigration.

"Be sure it doesn't expire during the life of your retirement extension and that you have enough pages in it."

Why? And how many pages are enough?

Expiring passports are normal. Immigration has a simple, free procedure for dealing with it.

Terry

Why would the U.S. consulate ask for a tax form? Never heard of that! We have heard reports that SOMETIMES immigration does ask applicants holding embassy letters to explain the source of their income. NancyL provided an example and she had a clear, non-grey area answer. What will the OP's answer be? Income from investments? OK. So what if then asked what kind of investments. Then, what if he doesn't like or understand the answer? Like I said, he's in a grey area unlike the typical PENSION income applicants. In my view, as NancyL said, he's better off being fully aware of the nature of his specific application and to be as prepared as possible. Edited April 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[moe666]

If your cap. gains are deposited directly in your bank account from brokerage account I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you deposits are equivalent to the 65,000 baht you should be good too go. This subject was talked to death a while back with the same back and forth happening now the bottom line was no consensus because as far as anyone knows immigration has never denied cap. gains. Having said that immigration and I mean each office can be a kingdom unto themselves.

Yes immigration can ask for proof of income to back up the letter, they can ask for information to back up address, they can throw curve balls out of left field. Do they do it? yes on ocassion, could you be the next guy? yes. Go with what is required and backup of your income and address just encase. Someone reported here a while back they asked if he had confirmation of his income and he starts digging in brief case and the officer said thats ok. If you feel better taking half your office then do it but donot offer anything unless asked for

[Jingthing]

If your cap. gains are deposited directly in your bank account from brokerage account I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you deposits are equivalent to the 65,000 baht you should be good too go. This subject was talked to death a while back with the same back and forth happening now the bottom line was no consensus because as far as anyone knows immigration has never denied cap. gains. Having said that immigration and I mean each office can be a kingdom unto themselves.

Yes immigration can ask for proof of income to back up the letter, they can ask for information to back up address, they can throw curve balls out of left field. Do they do it? yes on ocassion, could you be the next guy? yes. Go with what is required and backup of your income and address just encase. Someone reported here a while back they asked if he had confirmation of his income and he starts digging in brief case and the officer said thats ok. If you feel better taking half your office then do it but donot offer anything unless asked for

I agree with that largely. I just wanted the OP to be aware that at least some of the income he is claiming is potentially grey area. He seemed to think before that showing money moving around was the gold standard, when actually for income requirements, the gold standard is proof of the source of the income. At embassies requiring proof of income for the letter, they certainly wouldn't be convinced by just showing money moving around.

BTW, when people sell stocks they get the GROSS sale amount. The capital gain is only the profit portion. In other words, for example, sell 50K USD stocks. Now have access to 50K. 10K reported as capital gain profit on tax return. You could argue the 10K is "income" but you couldn't argue the 50K is.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[moe666]

If your cap. gains are deposited directly in your bank account from brokerage account I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you deposits are equivalent to the 65,000 baht you should be good too go. This subject was talked to death a while back with the same back and forth happening now the bottom line was no consensus because as far as anyone knows immigration has never denied cap. gains. Having said that immigration and I mean each office can be a kingdom unto themselves.

Yes immigration can ask for proof of income to back up the letter, they can ask for information to back up address, they can throw curve balls out of left field. Do they do it? yes on ocassion, could you be the next guy? yes. Go with what is required and backup of your income and address just encase. Someone reported here a while back they asked if he had confirmation of his income and he starts digging in brief case and the officer said thats ok. If you feel better taking half your office then do it but donot offer anything unless asked for

I agree with that largely. I just wanted the OP to be aware that at least some of the income he is claiming is potentially grey area.

BTW, when people sell stocks they get the GROSS sale amount. The capital gain is only the profit portion. In other words, for example, sell 50K USD stocks. Now have access to 50K. 10K reported as capital gain profit on tax return. You could argue the 10K is "income" but you couldn't argue the 50K is.

Yea wrong use of words there

[maesai]

I never said anything about "gross sales".

Hypothetically, suppose you are a retired person that was self employed. You have a Simplified Employee Pension (SEP) plan that you have purchased stocks with. At age 59 1/2 you begin to sell those stocks and pull money out of the plan. The money you take out, you report as income on your tax return whether the stock sales have capital gains or not. Does this "income" qualify as such, as far as Thai Immigration is concerned? On paper, it will just look like you are moving funds from your SEP brokerage account to your checking account.

[Jingthing]

I never said anything about "gross sales".

Hypothetically, suppose you are a retired person that was self employed. You have a Simplified Employee Pension (SEP) plan that you have purchased stocks with. At age 59 1/2 you begin to sell those stocks and pull money out of the plan. The money you take out, you report as income on your tax return whether the stock sales have capital gains or not. Does this "income" qualify as such, as far as Thai Immigration is concerned? On paper, it will just look like you are moving funds from your SEP brokerage account to your checking account.

Another grey area. Based on my understanding of what you are asking, that is the same thing really as people withdrawing from their IRA accounts. I have an IRA. If I took 10K USD out of it this year, personally, no way would I consider that qualifying "income" for Thai immigration. That is my opinion only. Its not the same as a defined benefit pension, public or private. Let's be clear here. There is no written rule saying that only pensions are acceptable. But we do know pensions are acceptable and considered typical. Edited April 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Here is another twist on the discretionary withdrawal from a retirement savings account scenario. Let's say this year I have 30K so called "income" from that withdrawal. Then next year I only withdraw 5K for whatever reason. Consider offices have your records from before. What happened to your so called income? Again, the general standard idea of retirement INCOME is steady, predictable, and for LIFE. Yes, because Thai law doesn't apparently spell this out explicitly (as most other countries with similar programs do) people are certainly free to try out more liberal interpretations of what can be defined as income. Though those needing to prove at embassies will be subject to the rules at their national embassies.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[TerryLH]

"...the general standard idea of retirement INCOME is steady, predictable, and for LIFE."

For immigration purposes, that's not the case. They look at it one year at a time.

The one thing I will agree with you on, is be prepared.

Over and out,

Terry

[Jingthing]

"...the general standard idea of retirement INCOME is steady, predictable, and for LIFE."

For immigration purposes, that's not the case. They look at it one year at a time.

The one thing I will agree with you on, is be prepared.

Over and out,

Terry

I have nothing against using snippets of quotes, but the way you just quoted me out of the context of the post (and the flow of thread) implies I think those kinds of income definition restrictions are actually written into Thai immigration law. I don't think they are. If I thought they were, I would have EXPLICITLY stated that. The fact that the rules of what types of income are not strictly defined in Thai law means people are free to try to call things income that MIGHT be questionable. Meaning

(1) For people needed to show proof to embassies, the types of income and proof would need to be accepted by those embassies

(2) For nationals with non-checking embassies, applicants using potentially grey area income sources MAY be subject to questioning

Edited April 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[maesai]

Just an update... Had my appointment. They converted my tourist to to a non-imm. I have to go back in the last 30 days of the non-imm to apply for the extension. They kept my original income affidavit, and said I have to get a new one for the extension application. No request for additional documentation.

[Mario2008]

1 post deleted as it was already posted in another thread. Please stick to posting in 1 thread only.