plopmeister Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Got my first wage yesterday...counted out in nice clean notes straight from the bank...12,000 Baht...10,000 + expenses (for attempts at getting a work permit etc...) I am used to getting USD 12,000 a month in a bank transfer...This, however, seemed to give me more pleasure.....GOD! What is happening to me????!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian1950 Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Let me tell of my own experience seeking teaching work with OBEC. I'm a native English speaker with a B.A. in Communications and Advanced TESOL with specializations in Tutoring and Teaching Children, which I attended college to achieve and graduating with Distinction. I've lived and taught English, both as private tutor and in the classroom in Thailand for most of the past 18 years. I have a good reputation, and am liked by students and Thai teachers alike. I was recommended to 3 local schools, went for an interview and the they were all happy to have me help them, and the children were eager for me to start. I was very happy and thought I would surely be hired and patiently waited over a month for feedback from the OBEC office in Bangkok. Today I got word back that everything was fine, except for one small detail; namely, that I had recently passed 60 years of age. (I'm in good health and quite active). Naturally I am very disappointed, but should have expected as much. It seems self-contradictory to me, that on the one hand, many Thai public schools cannot find teachers, while at the same time the government can't contain its prejudices and let the students and schools decide who they want to help them. I've been told by those in the know, that they seek teachers less than 50, but In my view, younger teachers won't settle for a job paying only 10,000 Baht per month. I find it sad that many Thai children will now wind up doing without an English assistant simply because certain elements in the Thai government are narrow-minded bigots. In fact, it makes me angry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plopmeister Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I've been told by those in the know, that they seek teachers less than 50, but In my view, younger teachers won't settle for a job paying only 10,000 Baht per month. I find it sad that many Thai children will now wind up doing without an English assistant simply because certain elements in the Thai government are narrow-minded bigots. In fact, it makes me angry. I am 55....56 soon...Um could it be more about um where we each live?? I am in Central Thailand and you are in BKK......If you see what I am alluding to.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) @Christian1950 - yes, that's very rough, indeed! I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty in understanding whether you applied for a position as a teacher - or one of the new ASEAN NES positions (assisting). If you applied for a NES position, then I'm indeed very surprised if you've been turned down, for as you say, many places just can't get anybody at all to assist...... If being 60 or over is grounds for rejection, then I'll certainly be out of the running, as well, which would strike me as being extremely weird - especially as we were informed before signing up that up to 65 would be considered acceptable (and even up to 70 in a few special cases!). However - if you live in an area with many applicants, then I can only guess that OBEC would rather choose younger people, for their own reasons. See, what you can do, is to contact the schools you'd earlier been "accepted" at - and presuming they haven't yet been allocated a different NES person, then get one of the people from your interview to get one of the higher-ups in the school to contact and "complain" about the decision to OBEC. That could quite easily change the tide, so to speak - as the rules and regulations are often not properly followed due to ignorance at OBEC - or maybe it was just a bad day for that particular clerk...... Aah..in the meantime the wife has found the official government document relating to hiring of NES speakers..... I've cut and pasted the part relating to "Age" when hiring - which you'll have to translate from Thai. As you can see, there is already a reference to "more than 65 years", in the first line. You can of course take this attachment with you to the school - maybe they also have the relevant document. Lastly, if you applied for a teacher position, then I'm afraid that (probably) none of the above is relevant for your situation. I can only suggest that you pressure your schools to help to get you employed - you'd be surprised how much "influence" some of the top people at many schools have..... Whatever - I can only agree with you that it's all completely ridiculous - and rather stupid! Hope some of this is of help to you - and any comments are welcome Cheers - and good luck Splod Oops! Sorry - the wife was a bit confused - the Age attachment relates to teachers !! That ought to improve your situation even more.... AgeLimits.doc Edited June 1, 2012 by CaptainSplod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 A nice one, Plopmeister! A month's gone by, already? That was quick! - and that means it's now around 6 weeks since I signed up for this programme....... and still haven't heard a sausage..... Ah, well - back to planting the peanuts, kale and onions - it's a busy time every day! Cheers - and lend us a quid Splod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plopmeister Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) A nice one, Plopmeister! A month's gone by, already? That was quick! - and that means it's now around 6 weeks since I signed up for this programme....... and still haven't heard a sausage..... Ah, well - back to planting the peanuts, kale and onions - it's a busy time every day! Cheers - and lend us a quid Splod Well I have only done one complete week. Last week was interrupted by visits to immigration and the previous week I only did one trial day.....but in true contractor tradition I filled in a complete month on their " timesheet" and got paid for the month.......and next Monday is a holiday!! I just asked Mrs Ploppy if she feels like a weekend away in our apartment in Naklua but she has a loooooong list of jobs for me to do on the farm.. Edited June 2, 2012 by Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevjohn Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 A nice one, Plopmeister! A month's gone by, already? That was quick! - and that means it's now around 6 weeks since I signed up for this programme....... and still haven't heard a sausage..... Ah, well - back to planting the peanuts, kale and onions - it's a busy time every day! Cheers - and lend us a quid Splod Well I have only done one complete week. Last week was interrupted by visits to immigration and the previous week I only did one trial day.....but in true contractor tradition I filled in a complete month on their " timesheet" and got paid for the month.......and next Monday is a holiday!! I just asked Mrs Ploppy if she feels like a weekend away in our apartment in Naklua but she has a loooooong list of jobs for me to do on the farm.. Mrs Ploppy and Mrs kevjohn have a lot in common.... Anyway, great to hear all is working out well with the teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plopmeister Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 A nice one, Plopmeister! A month's gone by, already? That was quick! - and that means it's now around 6 weeks since I signed up for this programme....... and still haven't heard a sausage..... Ah, well - back to planting the peanuts, kale and onions - it's a busy time every day! Cheers - and lend us a quid Splod Well I have only done one complete week. Last week was interrupted by visits to immigration and the previous week I only did one trial day.....but in true contractor tradition I filled in a complete month on their " timesheet" and got paid for the month.......and next Monday is a holiday!! I just asked Mrs Ploppy if she feels like a weekend away in our apartment in Naklua but she has a loooooong list of jobs for me to do on the farm.. Mrs Ploppy and Mrs kevjohn have a lot in common.... Anyway, great to hear all is working out well with the teaching. Just finished sweeping around the 6 mushroom huts and various working areas...will have to do the same around the house after the recent storms....Can't wait for school to start again on Tuesday.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwasaki Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I can work on a NON O visa as I obtained it by being married to a Thai ( written response from TAK Immigration). I would need everything mentioned in all previous posts if I worked more than 15 hours a week so I am currently doing 3 hours each morning and have a contract directly with the school ( Written response from the education authority in BKK that issues the certificate to teach and by Kamphaengphet Uni). The original initiative was, of course, set up to improve Thailand's current standing within ASEAN but today they mentioned that the school may wish to prolong my contract beyond September due to the response of the students.. That is strange because when at Tak immigration renewing 1 year extension in May'55, told them about me working for 6hrs per and they said any work what ever hours you need a work-permit. Edited June 2, 2012 by Kwasaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plopmeister Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I can work on a NON O visa as I obtained it by being married to a Thai ( written response from TAK Immigration). I would need everything mentioned in all previous posts if I worked more than 15 hours a week so I am currently doing 3 hours each morning and have a contract directly with the school ( Written response from the education authority in BKK that issues the certificate to teach and by Kamphaengphet Uni). The original initiative was, of course, set up to improve Thailand's current standing within ASEAN but today they mentioned that the school may wish to prolong my contract beyond September due to the response of the students.. That is strange because when at Tak immigration renewing 1 year extension in May'55, told them about me working for 6hrs per and they said any work what ever hours you need a work-permit. Strange yes...Surprising no.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian1950 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 @Christian1950 - yes, that's very rough, indeed! I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty in understanding whether you applied for a position as a teacher - or one of the new ASEAN NES positions (assisting). If you applied for a NES position, then I'm indeed very surprised if you've been turned down, for as you say, many places just can't get anybody at all to assist...... Thanks for your reply. I was applying for an NES position as an assistant at 3 small schools which work together in cooperation. The total hours would have been 20 hours among them. As mentioned, the teachers, staff and students all looked forward to my starting, but the problem arose from Bangkok (or so I was told). Perhaps I could call OBEC in BKK on Monday to request clarification? I live in a rather large population center (not BKK), and they settled on a young Filipino woman in the end. I'll end off saying that once the borders open up for the ASEAN union, Filipinos will be the rule as teachers, and western native speakers will be looking elsewhere for work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 To be honest, I don't really know if calling OBEC would help your case any. It's just one of the many places in Thailand that reject people, just because they can. Too, there's a chance that they'll "remember" you, should you apply again for a different position... I still think you'd stand a better chance of success by going through one (or more) of your schools. Maybe another poster has more experience of this sort of thing and can advise you much better than I can. ".....population center (not BKK), and they settled on a young Filipino woman in the end. " Are "they", in this case - OBEC or the school(s)? If "they" are OBEC, then I'd imagine that you're still in a good position to talk to your school(s) to try and get them to persuade OBEC to accept your original application. Let's face it, most schools would much prefer to have a NES assist with teaching, rather than a non-NES. It adds a certain "status" to the school - something Thais love. Naturally, if "they" is a reference to your school(s), then there's probably not a lot you can do... Your obvious disadvantage is in the fact that you live in a very populous area - and that non-NES guys are "cheaper" than NES guys. If you should accept the verdict from OBEC or have no success with your school(s), then the only thing left to do is to try other schools in less-populated areas. As has already been stated - there are many schools in the country that are crying out for a NES (even a non-NES) - but can't get anyone, as there are none available at all in their area. If you know where your Area Education Office (AEO) is, then try asking there - as they serve many schools in the area - sometimes in areas a bit further away, too. Also, the AEO communicate with other AEOs, so they may know of another area, close by, that is looking for a teacher/NES. You'd probably have to take along a Thai, as they often don't speak a lot of English at the AEOs. Take a look at the ajarn website, too - there are plenty of teaching/NES jobs available in the more remote areas. Good luck with whatever you choose - and do please keep us informed Cheers Splod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thequietman Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 To be honest, I don't really know if calling OBEC would help your case any. It's just one of the many places in Thailand that reject people, just because they can. Too, there's a chance that they'll "remember" you, should you apply again for a different position... I still think you'd stand a better chance of success by going through one (or more) of your schools. Maybe another poster has more experience of this sort of thing and can advise you much better than I can. ".....population center (not BKK), and they settled on a young Filipino woman in the end. " Are "they", in this case - OBEC or the school(s)? If "they" are OBEC, then I'd imagine that you're still in a good position to talk to your school(s) to try and get them to persuade OBEC to accept your original application. Let's face it, most schools would much prefer to have a NES assist with teaching, rather than a non-NES. It adds a certain "status" to the school - something Thais love. Naturally, if "they" is a reference to your school(s), then there's probably not a lot you can do... Your obvious disadvantage is in the fact that you live in a very populous area - and that non-NES guys are "cheaper" than NES guys. If you should accept the verdict from OBEC or have no success with your school(s), then the only thing left to do is to try other schools in less-populated areas. As has already been stated - there are many schools in the country that are crying out for a NES (even a non-NES) - but can't get anyone, as there are none available at all in their area. If you know where your Area Education Office (AEO) is, then try asking there - as they serve many schools in the area - sometimes in areas a bit further away, too. Also, the AEO communicate with other AEOs, so they may know of another area, close by, that is looking for a teacher/NES. You'd probably have to take along a Thai, as they often don't speak a lot of English at the AEOs. Take a look at the ajarn website, too - there are plenty of teaching/NES jobs available in the more remote areas. Good luck with whatever you choose - and do please keep us informed Cheers Splod remember, non- NES 5000 baht NES - 10,000 baht. thats 5000 baht just ready for corruption. Lets say, they forward your details as the applicant. applicant approved. then move in the non - NES and theres 5000 baht there for the taking. Paranoid........ maybe............ possible.............. very much so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) Well, this thread seems to have gone very quiet lately, so I guess I'll try and liven it up again and see if there are any updates. Here, we still haven't had a word or a whisper from anybody as to whether there'll be any "assisting" or not - and it'll soon be two months ago that we first asked about applying. Our information sources (for what they're worth) seem to have disappeared into oblivion along the way and we're hearing next to nothing. Mind you, there's probably very little happening - so not much info to pass on. In fact, just about everybody we have contact with seems to have lost interest in this project, which isn't at all surprising, is it...... It appears that some schools have NES guys working, but there's no information available (to us) as to whether these guys are part of the new(ish) government subsidy scheme, or not. We've so far heard of 2 people on this forum have have their applications rejected. Hopefully, they're pursuing other ways of "assisting" at schools. I wonder - has anybody actually received an official "accept" of their application, yet? Or, indeed - does anybody know of someone that has had their application approved? Just wondering, like, as the September finishing line is ever approaching.............. Cheers Splod Edited June 9, 2012 by CaptainSplod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwasaki Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I still haven't heard anything and wouldn't be surprised if I never do. I will be back on if anything happens, so bye for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thequietman Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 well I have been declined a position at my local village school as the government have said that I am working at another school and they are receiving the grant there. the fact that I have time to do both schools doesn't seem to matter. So it boils down to the fact that they would rather let my village school have nothing rather than give the additional salary to me. thai governent mentality at its best. what a shower of wan2ers. well I tried and thats all I can do. I suspect this is just the usual BS government incentive that will come and go with no success but lots of good 'face.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) Agreed - and personally I don't really see what difference it makes just who gets the job, as long as a school is supplied with a NES person - and that the NES is available and willing to work. It's more than ridiculous to let schools have nobody at all, rather than subsidize a person that already works at another school. If that's the general rule, then many schools way out in the sticks will never see a NES person - there just aren't any/enough people to fill the positions. Like yourself, I could quite easily work at 2 or more schools in my area without too much bother - but maybe it'll have to be only one school in the end. All the other schools will then presumably be left out in the cold. Makes you wonder who actually thinks these things out - as there has never been any apparent and well organised plan when this (ahem) "project" was originally started.... Many of the applications wouldn't have been made at all if the rules were beforehand known - for who wants to waste their own - and others' - time applying for a position that quite obviously won't be filled. A BS government incentive ? Absolutely! Cheers Edited June 12, 2012 by CaptainSplod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) Hi Guys! We're getting a trickle of news, here, that may or may not be of interest to you. Please take the following info with a (big) pinch of salt, as this is Thailand and info changes on an almost daily basis. Here's what we've been informed of - 1. The application forms for "most" areas have now been accepted by OBEC - unless you have already been disqualified, obviously. 2. Schools and Area Education Centres have until 20th of June to check that their forms are correct and that the farang is still available. 3. OBEc (Office of Basic Education) stipulates that all school follow the exact same principles : - A NES person can only work at one school, working at multiple schools is not allowed. - If you already work as a teacher, then you are not allowed to be a NES person in this OBEC project. - The NES person is required to work exactly 50 hours a month, no more, no less. - Forms will be supplied to the school to check the NES in- and out times. - The responsible Area Education Centre will be required to occasionally visit the school to ascertain the standard of NES teaching. At present, there is still no information regarding visa, work permit, possible tax payments - or anything else concerning the farang NES. Cheers Splod Edited June 15, 2012 by CaptainSplod 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 That is concrete and helpful information. If you get more news, please keep us updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwasaki Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 That is concrete and helpful information. If you get more news, please keep us updated. Back on but still no news. Splod Yes indeed update !! but you posted " The NES person is required to work exactly 50 hours a month, no more, no less." ??????? So what I was asked to work for i.e. 6 hours a week isn't NES then. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Yep - I and the wife checked and double-checked the wording - as this affects me, too. These are the current requirements (as per 13th June) from OBEC - and I can only assume this decision will create a lot of confusion among the schools and NES people. Many schools have already "pre-arranged" the working hours with their prospective NES people - to get them to apply for the position - and I'm not at all sure it'll go down well that the hours have now suddenly been substantially increased - and in many cases, doubled. As is becoming ever more frequent - "if we'd known about this right from the start, then we'd never have bothered to apply". Personally, if these are the final requirements for NES assistants, then I can't see too many people wanting to sign on the dotted line. I thought it best to share the news, now, to avoid any sudden shock when NES people are finally contacted about their applications - and also to avoid any school work contracts being signed without people knowing that they'd be working for many hours more than they'd originally agreed to. However, there is still some time before things will (perhaps) be set in motion - and maybe OBEC will issue a new decision, or a new set of rules, before then....... Cheers Splod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrgrims Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Can someone link me to a webpage from the thai government that explains this asean project in thai? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Here's the said document - enjoy! NES-Thai.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrgrims Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 thanks a lot, Captain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Yes, thanks a lot. I assist several of our schools in recruitment, which has been a major headache this year. Recruitment has been a bigger problem than usual, although I must admit it, it seems to have impacted the number of applicants who are non-native speakers the most. Perhaps there has been a knock-on effect all along the employment chain. In the past, we have usually been able to find native speakers who are 'semi-qualified'. They either have a degree or a TEFL qualification and experience, although only a handful have an education degree. Among the non-native speakers, they are usually fully qualified and have a teaching license in their home country. Most are Filipinos. This year we have had to hire non-native speakers who have degrees other than education. The positive side to the lack of qualified teachers has been a verbal directive to the administrative and supervisory staff to 'be nice' to new teachers. It is proving difficult for them not to treat them like they were illegal Burmese fishermen! Hopefully, the smaller, poorer up-country students will benefit in terms of learning and all teachers in terms of treatment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Some more things concerning the hiring of NES speakers. Not at all sure if these are the final documents to be used for the successful applications, as we don't see any contract-like document that has actually to be signed by the applicant. There is no accompanying explanation of the documents - possibly not necessary for the schools, that are used to dealing with such documents. We're rather guessing as to the intended purpose of the documents! Too, there are two blank documents in the batch we've accessed - maybe these blanks are reserved for other, perhaps important, documents (contract?, WP waiver?, "get out of jail free" card?). Here we go - Invit 1 - Thai version of "Invitation Letter to Work at XXX School" - presumably used by the school. Invit 2 - English version of "Invitation Letter to Work at XXX School" - presumably sent to the applicant. Invit 3 - Thai version of "Classroom Timetable" - presumably used by the school. Invit 4 - English version of "Classroom Timetable" - presumably sent to the applicant. Invit 5 - Monthly? payment of work, to be signed by the applicant (only in Thai) Invit 6 - Applicant's In- and Out times at the school, Control Sheet used by the school/government Maybe more stuff will turn up - and maybe these documents will be changed or replaced along the way - it's a "maybe" country we're living in. Cheers Splod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connda Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 As usual, small rural schools will be left in the dust. Thailand isn't going to lose their competitiveness in the ASEAN group do to a lack of English speakers; they are going to lose their competitiveness due to their inability to function outside of a counter-intuitive, self-defeating net of bureaucracies that are inflexible and counter-productive to the goals of high quality, productive, seamless global trade. If it's easier to trade with The Philippians, the Philippians with get the contracts. If it's easier to deal with Myanmar, then Myanmar will get the contracts. Thailand will be left with scabbed over, bloody holes in each foot where they have successively shot themselves with their short-sighted, politically motivated (and opportunistically corrupt) policies . Good luck keeping up with the other emerging societies who can actually embrace change. Like the tablet computer for 1st graders fiasco, this is just going to be another poorly administered cluster**** that will ultimately succeed in lining the pockets of a few well placed Puiyai within the various Thai bureaucracies while providing little if any real benefits for the teachers and students, especially in the poorest of the rural locations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Hopefully, the smaller, poorer up-country students will benefit in terms of learning and all teachers in terms of treatment! Like the tablet computer for 1st graders fiasco, this is just going to be another poorly administered cluster**** that will ultimately succeed in lining the pockets of a few well placed Puiyai within the various Thai bureaucracies while providing little if any real benefits for the teachers and students, especially in the poorest of the rural locations. Hmm....Yes, Well....as Connda says, I can't really see this project benefiting the smaller, rural schools in the end - as many of them simply aren't large enough to warrant any support from the government. I'm aware that some schools have sought to get around that, by 'joining up' with other schools, in the hope of sharing a NES speaker. If the OBEC rules are to go by, then working at more than one school isn't an option and I'm left wondering which, if any, of the small schools will get a NES speaker. And does it also mean that NES applicants will be delegated to whatever school OBEC or others think fit? I'm certainly looking forward to some clear (?) answers if and when anybody bothers to contact me. Earlier in the day I was reading through some things and was left wondering just how many millions of baht have already been spent on cooking up this project, producing letters, forms and documents to all - plus organising and having to pay for various meetings, conferences and hotel rooms to hammer things in place. All this for what appears to be a 3 month teaching period - for as far as we know, nobody yet has the faintest idea what will happen after September this year. It would indeed be nice to be proven wrong on many of the more negative points - though I must admit my optimism and enthusiasm for this project has dwindled to next to nothing over the last couple of months. Cheers Splod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connda Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I was approached today: 2.5 hours per day at only one school (there were three schools interested in me) at 200 baht / hour. No exceptions. No flexibility in defining the program. No mention of work permits, visas, taxes. "You work or no?" "Now that you put it that way -- No." Thais will lose their competitive edge in the global markets by wallowing in their own entrenched, inflexible bureaucracies and xenophobia, and in their complete lack of understanding as how to develop win-win scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainSplod Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Well - firstly, congratulations! You appear to be the first one to receive any definite news. Mind you, it doesn't sound at all good that you were approached in that manner. ("Jesus H. Christ!!" comes to mind) May I enquire - was it one of your schools that approached you, or was it the Area Education Centre? Too, were you approached verbally or were there any documents involved? Thanks for informing us of your 'ordeal' - we'll certainly be prepared to expect something similar...... Cheers Splod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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