Retiring To Thailand

[letitbe]

Forget "buying" land. You can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand. OK you can buy a Condo, but what for? Rent somewhere nice and live from your UK investments and pension

Forget "buying" land. You can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand. OK you can buy a Condo, but what for? Rent somewhere nice and live from your UK investments and pension

totally agree invest money instead. On your head be it if you decide to go down company ownership route. 30 year lease is fine for land but if your only 50 are you happy in case you live to 80 to loose it all. Hardly ever worth buying a house unless you have a Thai wife and kids. Also had great advantage that if you rent and then dont like it you can move easily. Houses dont sell easily here believe me and you get some beutiful places for rent at around 40k baht a month with pool and lot.

[letitbe]

Maybe. I was a little unclear.

I found out that non Thai's can't own land pretty quickly. You can through business agreements, but that loop hole is being closed down. Non nationals can own condos - again, technically owned by the overall building owner.

There have been rumours of the Thai government lifting the ban, though I doubt any time soon. Alternatively as you suggest, marry.

I stupidly wasted time looking around before honing in on the legal side of land ownership.

Having worked and lived in Europe, Australia, America etc I'd never come across this so never even thought to ask. My mother is building in Gambia, they don't even ask for visas, she comes and goes as she pleases.

In addition, I've travelled north and south across Thailand during that time enjoying the country and viewing areas. Its only when you speak to locals in the area, that you get to know about the location 24/7/365. Dropping in for a 2/3/4 holiday isn't the same as living somewhere - hence my post here.

In summary

-Buying land, possible, not worth the hassle

-or marry

-Buy condo, but your stuck to one location

-Long term leases seems the best way forward

:-)

Maybe. I was a little unclear.

I found out that non Thai's can't own land pretty quickly. You can through business agreements, but that loop hole is being closed down. Non nationals can own condos - again, technically owned by the overall building owner.

There have been rumours of the Thai government lifting the ban, though I doubt any time soon. Alternatively as you suggest, marry.

I stupidly wasted time looking around before honing in on the legal side of land ownership.

Having worked and lived in Europe, Australia, America etc I'd never come across this so never even thought to ask. My mother is building in Gambia, they don't even ask for visas, she comes and goes as she pleases.

In addition, I've travelled north and south across Thailand during that time enjoying the country and viewing areas. Its only when you speak to locals in the area, that you get to know about the location 24/7/365. Dropping in for a 2/3/4 holiday isn't the same as living somewhere - hence my post here.

In summary

-Buying land, possible, not worth the hassle

-or marry

-Buy condo, but your stuck to one location

-Long term leases seems the best way forward

:-)

condos are owned jointly by all owners of units not by anyone else so as someone said suggest you research a bit more. The building is owned by owners of units by % of space but of course only 49% can be foreign owned. All owners have a vote for manager committee again by % of building owned.

[chiang mai]

Spend more than six months outside the UK each year and you will loose your elligibility to free NHS treatment. Expect that one day in the future, probably not a long time from now, your UK arrivals and departures will be linked to things such as beneifits record, Taxes, NHS elligibility record and so on.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I guess you guys are right, planning and dreaming stage. I sure as hell dont plan to stay here in the big smoke much longer than I have to.

Between now and 50, work and save. Having read the posts, I’ve now got a better idea. To buy myself a one bed flat in the UK as my own personal bolthole and then another 2 bed property in the UK that I can let out. If I own it outright this would give me a nice rental income that should easily cover any rental costs in Thailand and be there for emergency should I need to sell it to raise capital etc.

Rest is planned for retirement fund. NHS, I have diabetes

. . .

Since you're planning on living overseas, you don't want to plan your life around government policies, so I'd highly recommend doing some deep research and get a good "disaster" international health plan locked in with a long-term stable private insurer - high upper limits, evacuation costs if necessary and high deductible, not to be used for routine stuff but major ones and eventually even covering your pre-existing. If you start paying into it now and keep it current then you won't depend on NHS when you make your move.

----------------

The land leasing idea will be fine for you as long as you construct the house so it can be moved and have your right to take it with you clearly spelled out if you're still alive when the lease runs out and they want you out. For the traditional Thai-style wood house on stilts design, that's pretty routine and doesn't cost a lot, I sponsored much of this for my first teerak and the house to be relocated cost 150K and the labor cost was 18, but obviously not fully finished by our standards, and it was over seven years ago now, probably x120+% now.

For a "normal" (read western-style) structure where you'd have jack up and move the whole thing don't know how that would work here. For another option, google "container house" and "cargotecture".

This is assuming you really want to have your own design built, otherwise just go ahead and lease a house with enough land for your gardening, most likely less expensive and less to lose if the deal goes south.

-----------------

For your finances, the key ratios are your current net worth (ruthlessly conservative, deeply discounting anything illiquid), passive income from those assets and how much of that income you need to live on.

Real estate is fine and good to the extent it reliably generates net income without your direct involvement, but not liquid for an emergency, so identify vehicles that provide both income and liquidity and start re-allocating from the former to the latter as you get older. I wouldn't worry about appreciation as much, ideally will keep up with inflation but maximizing income will be more important, ideally you won't ever have to sell anyway.

To the extent you can determine exactly what your minimum comfortable cost of living is, you may find you can make the move sooner rather than later. Obviously actually living here for more than a few months at a time will be required, but you should try to do that anyway.

I wouldn't make any major investments here until you've lived here for say 4-5 months at a time totally 3+ years, even then you won't be able to predict the future, so paying advance rent in 1-3 year chunks in order to guarantee the 30 years makes more sense than all up front.

[Tafia]

Enjoy your planning research and gaining knowledge, but you are still at the dreaming and planning stage, dont jump the gun!!

Dropping in for a 2/3/4 holiday isn't the same as living somewhere

Spot on, continue with your plans re savings planning etc, then when ready, move here and rent for a few years.

Love thailand, spent over three months there in 6 years on trips and so forth

Living here is not the same as having a few weeks holiday. Don't spend any money until you are 100% certain it's for you!!

Edited April 23, 2012 by Tafia

[VocalNeal]

As for buying vs renting.

There is a thread either on here or the "other" forum about a guy in Cha-Am who was renting a house until someone decided to have a pig farm in the vicinity. So ended the idyllic lifestyle of open windows and evening breezes. The owner came around and asked, as he had been living there for some years, if he wanted to buy the house. He said no and moved. Had he have bought the house in the first place he would still be down wind of a pig farm.

[TommoPhysicist]

My health planning is very simple, when I get old and if I get ill, I plan to die.

This is the traditional way of handling old age and illness, no point in wasting money.

I just don't get all these old guys paying absolutely anything to live that little bit longer with zero quality of life.

(I'm not talking accident insurance)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As for buying vs renting.

There is a thread either on here or the "other" forum about a guy in Cha-Am who was renting a house until someone decided to have a pig farm in the vicinity. So ended the idyllic lifestyle of open windows and evening breezes. The owner came around and asked, as he had been living there for some years, if he wanted to buy the house. He said no and moved. Had he have bought the house in the first place he would still be down wind of a pig farm.

As others have noted in various places here, for all intents and purposes, little or no meaningful land use zoning in Thailand.

[cooked]

In my neck of the woods (Buri Ram Province) to can rent a super brand new house for 5/6 thousand a month !, yeah thats right 5or 6 grand and you can live the life of Riley for 35 grand a month fully inclusive , two good hospitals with good doctors Buri ram and Surin and all the modern amenities , if you do decide to come and live here ,talk to people who have lived here for quite some time , do not rush into anything which you may regret later , personally I could not be more happier with my lot ,but have heard and seen quite a few horror stories, best of luck.

There is only one problem with that plan....you'd be in Buri Ram....

yes, what a dump Buri Ram is, far away from Nana Plaza and KFC, pollution and horrific traffic.. Living well, nice wife and house, doing my own thing on the farm on 47 000 a month sounds ok to me.

[samran]

In my neck of the woods (Buri Ram Province) to can rent a super brand new house for 5/6 thousand a month !, yeah thats right 5or 6 grand and you can live the life of Riley for 35 grand a month fully inclusive , two good hospitals with good doctors Buri ram and Surin and all the modern amenities , if you do decide to come and live here ,talk to people who have lived here for quite some time , do not rush into anything which you may regret later , personally I could not be more happier with my lot ,but have heard and seen quite a few horror stories, best of luck.

There is only one problem with that plan....you'd be in Buri Ram....

yes, what a dump Buri Ram is, far away from Nana Plaza and KFC, pollution and horrific traffic.. Living well, nice wife and house, doing my own thing on the farm on 47 000 a month sounds ok to me.

And you get your Silapa-archa overlords thrown in for nothing...

A bargain!

[cooked]

oh I agree, anything you say. Bangkok, Phuket and Pattaya are models of civic right mindedness, how silly of me

[samran]

oh I agree, anything you say. Bangkok, Phuket and Pattaya are models of civic right mindedness, how silly of me

Oh come on, calm down. No need for a tanty.

Each to their own, I say. I never advocated BKK over anywhere else, though I do love it there, have lived there for a decade working and loved it for none of the reasons people typically associate things with. I just like a bit of grit and raffishness to my cities.

[fletchsmile]

My two penneth, FWIW

1) 42, male, not partnered or looking, live in London, work in London, house in Surrey

Good chance that your status will change, whatever your intentions. I don't know many people who've been here over a decade and haven't acquired a partner in that time. Some get legally married, some just have a ceremony, some just live together, but very few guys I know of your age live by themselves for a decade or so - that said I know a couple

2) Love thailand, spent over three months there in 6 years on trips and so forth

Fair enough, Thailand does have some lovely qualities. Sounds a cliche, but living here is very different. Not uncommon for people to go thru phases of "I love it here" (honemoon period) as they don't really understand it and have only a superficial view, then "I hate it here" as they realise all is not it seems, and then "well it's not as good as I thought it was, but not as bad as I thought it was after that" as they accept things as they are warts and all. There are various versions of this and for some people the phases pass quicker. Of the 3 main phases it's not uncommon for people to become so disgruntled at the 2nd phase and leave on a negative note

3) Have looked at Chaam / Huahin for land - reason its 2 hours from BKK, great for medical, dental emergencies, even local arent good enough or plane/flights home

Yes both lovely places. Cha-Am is a bit quieter. Would disagree they have "great" medical facilities. Reasonable, , good, OK, basic yes. The building of a Bangkok hospital has further improved things. I recall two occasions though: 1) where from San Paolo hospital my mum needed to travel an hour in ambulance from San Paolo to the next province for an MRI scan as they didn't have a machine in Hua Hin 2) We took my father from Hua Hin as they couldn't diagnose his condition, so we came back to BKK. turned out very serious and he was in ICU/HDU for nearly 4 weeks in Bumrungrad. Could have been very serious if we didn't. They definitely would not have had they facilities in Hua Hin. Planes home not a big deal. Just adds a couple of hours to your journey by taxi. Living in BKK can take that on a bad day!

4) Understand reasonably the land laws, leasing, building costs

Fair enough. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing though

5) Many have just suggested buy a condo or rent (though I like a garden and time spent of looking after it) pool etc means its my own place, rather than it feeling like a holiday let

Yes would second that. Rent at first. An Englishman's home is his castle and a garden is very nice. I must admit I had similar thoughts. I also didn't like the idea of wasting money on rent or "dead money". Live in a place for a while before you buy. There are lots of choices in Thailand for all sorts of things, and places to live is no different. You might also change your mind as to where you like as you discover something new. Also useful to have lived in an area as buildings and locations often bring a lot of unexpected surprises, eg when it rains, when someone decides they like Karaoke, and so on, not to mention blank plots of land nearby...

6) Spent a year learning Thai - not much use now, but I hope I'll pick it up

Learning the language is a double edged sword. I'd go for it though

7) Plan is to buy land, then not do much till Im 50+ as in retirement visa - gives me time to figure out stuff save up money

You can't buy land in 99%+ of cases. Live somewhere and rent first anyway. Be careful of schemes setting up nominee companies so you can own land etc.

Thailand is certainly a good place for thinking and then again equally for not thinking, it's "up to you". Certainly an opportunity for reflection.

Think you need to consider hard how you are going to "save money". What you have now is easily eaten away by inflation. Plus exchange rates change and so on

8) Plan is to sell my UK home, buy a 1 bed flat then use cash from house to build house and live from with pension when that kicks in. No point having a large house in the UK thats only there gathering dust as an emergency stop back in blighty - probably rent

I sold my house when I committed here as I didn't want the hassle. I invested most of the proceeds in assets which were less hassle and more liquid. I wouldn't recommend leaving most of it in cash to be frittered away without thought, so some investment is better. I doubt selling your house and living off the proceeds will sustain you until you plan to finish work and beyond

Bear in mind life changes. What you see yourself doing aged 43 has a good chance of being very different as you live here and grow older. Thailand also has a habit of changing people.

In my case I left Thailand after being here about 7 years, then came back again a couple of years later after living overseas, topping up my career and money, and most importantly deciding to marry my Thai soulmate. So: First time I couldn't imagine leaving. Then I'd had enough and moved on. Then came back. There are still reasons to leave again though, such as kids, education, older relatives.

BTW Don't forget you can no longer draw private pensions in UK until 55 (not 50). State pension for you will be around 67-68 if you're lucky.

BTW2 I'm happy I didn't buy somewhere straight way even though it went against my nature. I'm happy now though that with a family we have bought a place. Once you commit to living in Thailand it makes sense to build some Thai assets.

Cheers and Good Luck. Ours is to make the most of the time that is given to us, and Thailand certainly offers opportunities...

Fletch

[JAFO]

TleThere,

There is a very good thread going about 'Why did you decide to leave Thailand". I suggest you run through all of the posts. It actually stays on course pretty well except for a few people that attempted to derail it.

There are a lot of answers to your questions and a lot of information that you can quickly translate for you to think about before retiring here.

Good Luck.

[thenervoussurgeon]

I have read all the posts and i will give you some advice ,this from someone who has lived here had buisness dealings here have a home wife and son here,for the last 6 of 23 years ,

keep the dream alive but do not give up your life and come here to live alone ,unless that is what you really like ,you will end up hanging around bars,you are to young work a lot longer then when you are in your 50"s come hereand spend 6 months or so to see how it goes . do not buy here untill you are absolutely sure you really do like it and the lifestyle .

hope it all works out and doubt you will listen to a word i said

ps forget the 30 year lease with 30plus 30 after it will not happen 30 is the maximum you can rely on.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

My comment here may be getting a bit afield, but it relates to the issue of buying vs not.

There's been a lot of talk and discussion here in the past, and I think it's well-founded, about the different psychological stages that many expats go thru after arriving in Thailand... Something along the lines of three main phases, as I've heard others describe it here... And in my own personal experience, it seems to be the case.

First stage you've just arrived, and everything is swell. Then that gives way to the second stage where all the limitations and frustrations and difficulties seem to take predominance and people get frustrated and angry and cynical, and perhaps decide to leave altogether. And then for those who stay, perhaps there's a third stage where people can adjust to find a comfortable compromise to accept what comes with living here. All of this typically playing out over years... not weeks or months.

It's because of these kinds of dynamics, that I also think it's prudent for any newcomer who wants to buy -- and there are many of us who can but don't think it's a particularly prudent investment -- to hold off on buying until they're sure that Thailand is going to work out for them in the long-run... Certainly because trying to sell an existing home or condo here is entirely different from say in the U.S.

And what a person's thinking and feeling after 3 months or 6 months of living here -- even for those with long tourist backgrounds of visits -- isn't necessarily the same things they'll be feeling 2 or 3 or 4 years down the road.

Ahh... I guess I should have added, there's also a potential other third stage... But we don't like to talk about that too much... That's where you never get to the other stage 3 because you either jump off or are pushed off the upper floor of some high-rise building where you live and end up splattered on the street below. Cheers!

[Darrel]

Rest is planned for retirement fund. NHS, I have diabetes, so would leave UK property intact here and zip back once a year for medical collections and check-ups. Seems easier in my book to do a one stop shop. Not sure of anyone else has done that kinda thing. Hopefully NHS remains intact. One thing I haven’t figured out is : if I get a 1year retirement visa, does the UK government get told and then update their records for NHS.

The rules about residency are being changed so the following may not apply for long.

If you retain accommodation for your use in the UK (ie an empty flat), and if you have financial interests there (rented property, pensions etc etc) then you may be considered resident regardless of where you actually are. As such you will be treated like someone who takes a lot of overseas holidays and should have no problems with NHS treatment. But it's a double-edged sword. Most people find it advantageous to sever ties with the their home country and be resident here as the tax savings can be considerable. I certainly do, though that of course depends on individual circumstances. So if you want the NHS cover you have to be prepared to be taxed in the UK. You might find that the tax savings of being resident here easily cover your extra health care costs here.

There is no doubt in my mind that HMRC will soon be getting data directly from the UK Border Agency about who enters/leaves the UK, if indeed they dont already get it. I also have no doubt that this will be used to verify UK tax and NI liabilities. So at some point they may take it on themselves to decide who is resident and who isnt, based on that info. I also have no doubt that NI and income tax will be bundled up into a single tax at some point, and this of course may have an impact on eligibility for UK services and state pensions.

The UK government does not currently know what sort of Thai visa you have, and are unlikely to at least over the next couple of decades. They do know your destination country when you leave the EU on commercial transport, but they dont automatically know where you go to after that.

[tlethere]

TallGuyJohninBKK : I like the three stage philosophy no argument from me. I think Im settled on renting now, especially from what’s been said. having watched my mum spend the best part of £50k on a place in Gambia - seems she now just found out that its actually in a restricted building area! Apparently the area is owned by the Government for sale to hotels .. So that’s a pretty clear example of what can go wrong. She was even dating a local.

Thankfully she’s managed to get the property registered with the council (as it is out there) due to the fact that its thankfully nestled within an area where there are other local houses. So all in all, as she's away and hidden, no one was too worried!

Good points on the NHS. Not sure how much diabetes treatment is abroad, but happy to sit in the middle and try to get it for as long as possible from the UK, paid 'em enough over the years! lol

I’m sure it won’t be long before the border agencies link everything up - I work for a large insurance firm doing their Info Security. having seen what the UK Government are already doing with personal injury claims, non insured vehicle checks and MOT checks, all online.. As an insurer we are now required to link through to the MOJ (Ministry of Justice) and the MIB (Motor Insurance Bureaux) to cross check every quote and claim that gets done in the UK!

[chiang mai]

You've told us that your mum lives in Gambia but is "fooling" the NHS into believing that she lives in the UK, just so that she can get free NHS treatment and now you are planning to do the same except you want to live in Thailand. You have also said that you work for an insurance company in the UK in a professional capacity, presumably that position is paid at least reasonably well. My question is, have you and your mum every thought of spending some money on private medical insurance to fund your chosen lifestyles rather than defrauding the NHS which is of course illegal?

[tlethere]

There's been so many good replies, that I think the original post and now subsequant comments/feedback have led to decisions by myself as to permanant residency:

Lets break this down in to what I did say / didnt say or implied:

Chiang Mai : You've told us that your mum lives in Gambia but is "fooling" the NHS into believing that she lives in the UK, just so that she can get free NHS treatment and now you are planning to do the same except you want to live in Thailand.

Ive just read all my posts - no where have a stated she is trying to fool the NHS, nor I - I have stated clearly that I now intend to still reside in the UK, but spend a lot of time abroad in Thailand - that by definition, is not full time living abroad and thus is completely legal. If you see the link below, it clearly states that if you live abroad permanantly - eg 365 days per year you will not be covered

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/movingabroad/Pages/Livingabroad.aspx

Living abroad

Moving outside the EEA : You will not be covered for healthcare paid by the UK if you are going to live permanently outside the UK

She still lives in the UK, but spends months in Gambia - she is not a permanant resident of Gambia, therefore under he UK Health system, fully legible for heatlth care. The same for me, I've now decided that I would not be living 365 days per year in Thailand nor register with the UK authorities as a permanatly living abroad. In deed my mum only popped over last week to see me for Sunday dinner.

Chiang Mai: You have also said that you work for an insurance company in the UK in a professional capacity, presumably that position is paid at least reasonably well. My question is, have you and your mum every thought of spending some money on private medical insurance to fund your chosen lifestyles rather than defrauding the NHS which is of course illegal?

My position is paid reasonably well - the NHS treatment I receive is circa £600 a month. As you'll probably agree, a touch expensive at £7200 a year and thats just medication, not consultants and blood tests. Private blood tests here in the UK are £500 a go, I need two a year. But I pay a heck of a lot of money into the NHS system. So I dont feel guilty and thats what its there for.

So by not moving out permanantly (either for myself or my mother) I/we avoid fooling or defruading anyone. During this entire debate, some time back on page one I agreed that living/buying permanantly wasnt an option, and renting was the way to go on a 9/10 month basis. Having read another government document, providing I have a UK residency, pay council tax, water bills etc - I legally remain a UK citizen entitled to what the UK offers.

Therefore if I own a house in the UK, drop in for two weeks every six months for a check up, medication and off again - perfectly legal I would of course, subscribe to medical insurance in Thailand, should anything require it and paying for what ever I need privately.

Edited April 28, 2012 by tlethere

[TommoPhysicist]

My position is paid reasonably well - the NHS treatment I receive is circa £600 a month. As you'll probably agree, a touch expensive at £7200 a year and thats just medication, not consultants and blood tests. Private blood tests here in the UK are £500 a go, I need two a year. But I pay a heck of a lot of money into the NHS system. So I dont feel guilty and thats what its there for.

Private blood tests in Thailand are 250bht in a state hospital or 400bht in a private hospital.

You should find out what your medical care would cost in Thailand, maybe cheaper private here than free NHS in the UK.

[chiang mai]

You confused me with your words in post 30 where you said:

"so would leave UK property intact here and zip back once a year for medical collections and check-ups. Seems easier in my book to do a one stop shop. Not sure of anyone else has done that kinda thing. Hopefully NHS remains intact. One thing I haven’t figured out is : if I get a 1year retirement visa, does the UK government get told and then update their records for NHS".

From the above it sounds as though you intend to own the UK house but rent it out whilst living almost full time in Thailand. And from other posts that I'm too lazy to do a cut and paste on I also got he idea that your mum was doing something not too disimilar in Gambia.

But whatever, how you do things and how you decide to do things in the future is entirely your perogative and not really any of my business, I just wanted to try and understand what you have in mind and how you saw it all working. But you should not be under any illusions that owning a UK property whilst renting it out and living full time here in Thailand will earn you any favors from the NHS etc. There's loads of UK ex-pats here who own UK rental property but because they are resident here they are not elligible for free NHS treatment, you would almost certainly be in the same boat if your lifestyle etc determined that you didn't actually live in the UK.

In going forward the UK governement is slowly tightening the noose around ex-pats, NHS health tourists and the whole issue of UK residency, quite rightly too. Those of us that have been ex-pats for more than ten years or so have seen the changes comming and know there's even more to come so I strongly recommend you examine your entire plan from not only your own interpretation of elligibility, but also look at it from what the UK governement, HMRC and the NHS have to say also, methinks there might just be a gap there!

[tlethere]

Totally agree wish it was easier. Ive read some 20 web sites in the last few hours all relating to the NHS and whether you live in the UK or live abroad, what exactly does it mean and how is it applied. Certainly seems a grey area. Looking through tons of data, if I had two properties

1) full time place - though empty 10 months of the year, in my name etc and paying bills

2) rental place - revenue/income for living in Thailand

It seems thats the "winning" solution - if you can call it that! But as you say, with the Border Agencies sharing data etc, going to be harder to get that one by... This is an interesting read: http://www.expatmoneychannel.com/node/286

"Under the current Department of Health Regulations, anyone spending more than three months outside the UK is no longer automatically entitled to free NHS treatment,"

I spent 3 months travelling the workd on a career break - maybe now we're really looking atthe detail, possibly 90 day visas and zipping back every 3 months. A £450 flight every 3 months compared to £1800 medication bill.

Some logic there - still reading more sites

[SimonD]

The rules on NHS entitlement are being tightened all the time. When I came back from Thailand in late 2010 after two years in Thailand I had little difficulty in picking up where I left off, but that was only because I had kept property here and was able to go straight back on my GP's list, who also knew of my time abroad and was sympathetic.

During subsequent visits to hospital have seen various hastily produced forms asking for residency/nationality details although no proof has been required - yet. Only this week I signed in using a touch-screen and, after confirming my name, age and address, it asked if I had been 'resident in the United Kingdom for the last 12 months?' That's a new one.

I don't know where that line of questioning would have gone if I'd answered 'no'...

Edited April 28, 2012 by SimonD

[tlethere]

Im going blind researching this, but this sums it up:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Entitlementsandcharges/OverseasVisitors/Browsable/DH_074386

Living in both the UK and another country?

If you spend more than 3 months living in another country on a regular basis each year, for example because you spend four months living in a second home during the winter but return to the UK for the rest of the year, then you may not be eligible for free hospital treatment while you live here. If the other country is one with which the UK has a bilateral health agreement then the partial exemptions described above will apply to you. If the other country is not one with which there is a bilateral health agreement, then you will not be entitled to free NHS hospital treatment during the time you live here, unless you meet one of the other exemption criteria.

If you are in receipt of an UK state retirement pension then a different part of the Regulations applies to you. Please see the separate page Are you a UK State Pensioner spending more than 3 months living outside the United Kingdom?

Returning to the UK after a period of time living away?

If you go anywhere abroad for more than three months, either for a one-off extended holiday for a few months or to live permanently for several years, but then return to the UK to take up permanent residence here again, then you will be entitled to receive free NHS hospital treatment from the day you return. So will your spouse, civil partner and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) if they are also living with you permanently in the UK again.

Once you are living here permanently you will become ordinarily resident and the Regulations will cease to apply to you. Your spouse, civil partner and child will also be considered ordinarily resident if they are living permanently in the UK with you. If they are not living permanently in the UK then the Regulations will apply and in order to be entitled to free hospital treatment they will have to meet one of the categories of exemption in their own right.

In common with those ordinarily resident in the UK, anyone who is exempt from charges for hospital treatment will have to pay statutory NHS charges, eg prescription charges, unless they also qualify for exemption from these, and will have to go onto waiting lists for treatment where appropriate.

So for me, I'd had to drop back every 3 months - bugger!

Edited April 28, 2012 by tlethere

[theblether]

Blimey, Im going blind reading all this - but essentially and Im lifting this from a NHS website www.stockport-lmc.org.uk/overseas%20visitors.ppt:

Entitlement to full NHS treatment hinges on the concept of 'ordinary residence’ i.e. "living lawfully in the United Kingdom voluntarily and for settled purposes as part of the regular order of their life for the time being. Whether they have an identifiable purpose for their residence here and whether that purpose has a sufficient degree of continuity to be properly described as 'settled'.”

This definition, accepted by House of Lords, does not include reference to employment status or duration of stay. Entitlement does not depend on past or present payments of UK taxes or National Insurance contributions.

Patients spending more than 3 months living abroad are not automatically entitled to free NHS hospital treatment.Some UK state pensioners are exempt from this regulation.

UK citizens returning to live permanently in the UK after living abroad for more than three months are entitled to free NHS hospital treatment from the day they return.

Now we get to: UK pensioners living abroad for part of the year

Eligible to full NHS entitlement; Pensioners who remain ordinarily resident in the UK, but take long holidays abroad

Pensioners receiving UK retirement pension who live in the UK for at least 6 months and in another EEA member State for less than 6 months each year and who are not registered as a resident of another member State.

UK pensioners living abroad for part of the year

Eligibile to NHS hospital treatment needed promptly for a condition arising AFTER arrival in the UK;

UK state pensioners living more than 3 months of the year in a non-EEA country, if they lived lawfully in the UK for at least 10 continuous years in the past. (Includes those spending a few months each year in non-EEA country & those living permanently in non-EEA country returning to UK for short visits.)

A spouse and children (under the age of 16, or 19 if in further education) of such patients, provided they are staying with the pensioner in the UK on a permanent basis during the period of the visit.

Now it really depends on what they call pensioner. I cant see where it says "drawing government pension" - which for me would be 65 - or whether I was just retired eg on a private pension? I reckon legal retirement age of government pesnions 65!

Go with the assumption that you are not entitled to NHS treatment if you are retired to Thailand on a full time basis. Then go with the assumption that you may be able to brass neck your way to treatment if you need it.

While your at it, also go with the assumption that if you answer yes to being non resident then you are going to cause a problem for yourself.

Now stop reading NHS websites.

It is accepted among TV members that you lose the right to use the NHS if you live permanently in Thailand. So while you are planning your move make sure you have taken into account your medical costs in Thailand. Do not, and I mean, do not assume that you will be able to fly home in the event of illness. There are legions of stories of people being badly hurt in motorcycle and car accidents, people taking strokes, people taking heart attacks etc etc and genuinely being unfit to fly.

[SimonD]

@ OP:

I think you'll find the state pension age for your age group is now...67.

As I indicated in my post, the goalposts are moving all the time.

[theblether]

Totally agree wish it was easier. Ive read some 20 web sites in the last few hours all relating to the NHS and whether you live in the UK or live abroad, what exactly does it mean and how is it applied. Certainly seems a grey area. Looking through tons of data, if I had two properties

1) full time place - though empty 10 months of the year, in my name etc and paying bills

2) rental place - revenue/income for living in Thailand

It seems thats the "winning" solution - if you can call it that! But as you say, with the Border Agencies sharing data etc, going to be harder to get that one by... This is an interesting read: http://www.expatmone...el.com/node/286

"Under the current Department of Health Regulations, anyone spending more than three months outside the UK is no longer automatically entitled to free NHS treatment,"

I spent 3 months travelling the workd on a career break - maybe now we're really looking atthe detail, possibly 90 day visas and zipping back every 3 months. A £450 flight every 3 months compared to £1800 medication bill.

Some logic there - still reading more sites

Property ownership is irrelevant. Paying tax in the UK is irrelevant, paying NIC is irrelevant, paying council tax is irrelevant. No offence, you are a newbie. This issue has been examined and done to death

Residency is dependent upon exactly that, being resident in the UK.

[pipo1000]

I spent ages talking to Siam Legal - leasing land for 30 years and immediately extending for 30+30 to get it to 90 years (id be dust by then anyhow!). Seems the property would always be mine - the land to the original land owner.

I guess you wasted ages talking to siam legal as a 30+30+30 year lease is not legal and as far as I know will even not be registered at the land office.It's 30 years only.

[theblether]

@ OP:

I think you'll find the state pension age for your age group is now...67.

As I indicated in my post, the goalposts are moving all the time.

+1

There is a very informative topic pinned re pension rights etc at the top of this forum. The guys on there are experts on all issues regarding retirement, pensions,and access to NHS services. Have a read through that and you will get best advice. Nong38, Bendix, exeter, Transam and many others are at the top of the class when it comes to matters financial for UK retirees in Thailand.

Be warned though the topic can get heated.