Thai Driving And "jai Yen"

[Savage]

I've spent alot of time in Thailand and think they have admirable traits as a nationality. I love their patience towards life, they offer many ways of how farangs could be better in daily life, but not with driving!

For a country of patient people they drive cars with absolutely zero patience. Every day I witness extreme driving and acts of shere irresponsibility on the road. Why is this? And why (with this in mind) do a race of "impatient" people such as farangs (minus the French & Italians!) drive in a much more patient manner?

Buddhism teaches compassion yet I find no compassion on a Thai road and zero generosity whereas in all other aspects of life in Thailand this can be found in bucketloads.

This is not meant as an attack on Thai's but i'm sure that every member of this forum will agree that bad driving as a trait of the Thai nation is sadly not a generalisation.

[cdnvic]

"Mai Pen Die" is my phrase for describing Thai driving attitudes.

I did a "Thai Driving Test" a couple years ago that sums up my thoughts.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6820

cv

[buadhai]

Good one cv. LOL.

But, the OP is right on the money. I think the skill level of most Thai drivers is high, but the cr*p they pull almost constantly is so markedly different from their non-driving behavior that I wonder what causes the seemingly incomprehensible transition?

I have finally turned our daily drive into Korat to pick up the kid over to Ms. B. In the end I just couldn't tolerate any more of the in-your-face affronts that Thai drivers manage to constantly dish out while hiding behind a tinted windshield.

Of course, the details of Thai driving have been discussed elsewhere. But, I wonder just what it is about the Thai persona that permits this Jekyl and Hyde dichotomy?

[Tippaporn]

I'll bet I'm the minority here but I love driving in Thailand. No chance that I'll ever fall asleep at the wheel!

Thai driving style = whoever wants it the most. It's like a game of chicken. I don't know what the actual stats are for accidents/fatalites but after 3+ years I can't claim to see more accidents here than in the States.

Edit: BTW cv, I read your link.

Edited December 30, 2005 by Tippaporn

[buadhai]

I think one reason you don't see more accidents is that Thai drivers are generally very predictable. You know someone is going to encroach your line without looking, you know that bus driver is going to pull out into your lane no matter how close a call it will be, you know that motorcycle driver ahead is going to zoom across four lanes of traffic in order to make a right turn. Since all these habits are well practiced people get used to it and respond accordingly.

And, I agree, it is a game of chicken.

But, I am always the chicken, so I always lose and I really, really hate that.

So, I let Ms. B drive into town to pick up the kid every afternoon while I relax at home, stress free.

[Felix Lynn]

So, I let Ms. B drive into town to pick up the kid every afternoon while I relax at home, stress free.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As it should be.

[tom yum goong]

jai yen is a pretense, Thais are no more jai yen than anyone else in this world. I think the concept of jai yen, although a part of buddhist philosophy, is deeply connected with face. Losing your cool is seen as losing "face".

However, in the anonymity of traffic, it is true human nature that becomes apparent. Each to their own and the devil take the hindmost.

[Losangels]

Traffic laws are there but seldom enforced. Those that are entrusted to enforce the laws are the very same people who breaks them. Also there are the privilege ones that never can be fined or arrested.

Perhaps we need another agency to provide this service.

[Tippaporn]

Perhaps the Thai driving style is another part of their culture that's hard for farang to fathom? Possibly, but I don't know. I do know that I always feel safe on the roads, I don't fret at all that I'll get from point A to point B and back again safely, other drivers don't worry me in the least and therefore don't knock me off my kilter, I have fun on the road and I wouldn't want to change a thing about the driving here. No fear, no problem. Jai yen yen.

[SamuiRes]

"Mai Pen Die" is my phrase for describing Thai driving attitudes. 

I did a "Thai Driving Test" a couple years ago that sums up my thoughts.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6820

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did the test to get my Thai Licence and the differences between what we are taught in the UK and here explain (maybe!) a lot.

One example is that if you are on a main road and there is a road joining from the left and a car approaching you on the main road is signalling to turn right into that road - who has right of way? I would have said I do, but no, the Thai Highway Code gives him right of way. I got this wrong when I took the test and went back to the book to check that it really did say that. Clear as day with a picture to confirm it.

What I do enjoy though is, when they flash their lights to signal they are taking right of way, I flash back immediately and keep going. Not something to do at high speed and I am ready to stop if need be, but it doesn't half confuse them!

Driving on Samui has become something of a trial. The number of vehicles has increased so dramatically over the last four years that high speed crashes are a rarity as no one (except mini-bus drivers and lorry drivers who have their own set of rules) can drive that fast any more!

[Savage]

I'll bet I'm the minority here but I love driving in Thailand.  No chance that I'll ever fall asleep at the wheel! 

Thai driving style = whoever wants it the most.  It's like a game of chicken.  I don't know what the actual stats are for accidents/fatalites but after 3+ years I can't claim to see more accidents here than in the States. 

Edit:  BTW cv, I read your link. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who wants what most? Death? Thailand has the 6th worst fatality rate in the world. They exceed the UK's yearly rate on the Songkran weekend alone! Haaa haaaa, what fun!

If you think you don't see as many accidents i'm afraid you can't be out and about on Saturday night. I gotta say that I see accidents on a weekly basis and have quite frequently seen blood and gut splattered aftermaths. What about the taxi on Rama 9 road I saw that managed to launch itself over the mid section of the road landing on 3 motorbikes carrying 5 people? Did they not "want it enough"? Were they just chicken?

I appreciate what I need to look out for on Thai roads, what I need to expect and allow for but I don't understand why the driving here is so at odds with the Thai charector

[Savage]

Incidently figures are as follows

UK - approx 3000 deaths per year

USA - approx 42,000 per year

Thailand - 13,000 per year

Bearing in mind that there are many more cars in the UK than Thailand and the US has a population of 295,734,134

[mogoso]

Driving on Samui has become something of a trial. The number of vehicles has increased so dramatically over the last four years that high speed crashes are a rarity as no one (except mini-bus drivers and lorry drivers who have their own set of rules) can drive that fast any more!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The mud on the road at the southern end of Cheweng beach was always a fun trip in the jeep. Its been long paved since then, so its just another street. Although its been five years since I've been there, the more I think of Koh Samui the more I think of a Joni Mitchell song lyric," they've paved paradise and put in a parking lot"

[SamuiRes]

Driving on Samui has become something of a trial. The number of vehicles has increased so dramatically over the last four years that high speed crashes are a rarity as no one (except mini-bus drivers and lorry drivers who have their own set of rules) can drive that fast any more!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The mud on the road at the southern end of Cheweng beach was always a fun trip in the jeep. Its been long paved since then, so its just another street. Although its been five years since I've been there, the more I think of Koh Samui the more I think of a Joni Mitchell song lyric," they've paved paradise and put in a parking lot"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is all good fun again now that the recent rains have washed all the sand off the hills and it has set like concrete over the actual concrete except where the water is still lying where it is just a slushy dangerous mess.

[Heng]

Agree with the poster who said it's who wants it the most. I know for myself, my cars are all fully covered, my body is fully covered against loss of life and for hospital stays, I'm typically armed, and I have enough back office staff to handle most situations that can come up. Fail to yield at your own risk.

^

the above is mostly a tongue in cheek post.

[andyfletch]

Tired of Conforming?

Bored with Silly Rules?

Proud to be Thai?

Become a Motorcyclist!

Get a Motorcycle and enjoy the freedom of the road (and the adjacent brown and green bits).

Don't forget the essential accessories:

• A slack handful of stainless steel swarf to put in your engine to ensure plenty of oil gets changed to smoke, so that others know you're mobile.

• Plastic bag over the rear number plate to ensure you cannot be identified

• Flip-flops. It is not possible to ride safely in any other footwear.

That all important routine maintenance:

• Remove silencer and other non-essential parts of the exhaust system, to ensure all the damaging noise and smoke can get out of the engine easily.

• Ensure your tyres have no deformities such as tread, to maximise the amount of rubber in contact with the road.

• Slacken brake lever so that it dangles freely from the handlebar, to reduce the risk of snagging your jacket cuffs.

• If yours is a new bike it will have brake pads or shoes. These will need "bedding in" so that the metal rivets are exposed. They will now work, should you ever need them.

• Have an expert look at your bike from time to time. Should he try to touch it or get too close, drive it away as quickly as possible, you can't be too careful these days.

And a few optional style items:

• Whilst not recommended a crash helmet can enhance your stylish appearance if properly selected and worn - ensure it is far too big for you, and make sure that you set it at a jaunty angle towards the back of your head. Under no circumstances should you fasten the strap, as this could cause discomfort during an accident.

• If you are a Sikh and wear a turban the crash helmet is impractical , but you can still show how safety conscious you are by carrying one over your left arm.

• As a building labourer you can prove to one and all that you are hard at work by carrying your mate on the pillion seat. He will of course have clutched in his hand a very full bucket of wet cement.

• A small child to sit in front of you or, better still, on the handlebars. This shows that you not only have style, but are a responsible family man.

• A 15kg gas cylinder perched precariously on the back of your bike says more about you than a valid driving license ever will.

And now you're ready for the road, a few simple things you might find useful:

• You have right of way.

• Never ever give priority to others, it will confuse them and is dangerous.

• Ignore all road signs. They are for other road users.

• Ride about one metre in from the kerb, this will be sufficient to make other road users swerve into the next carriageway where there is often enough room for two vehicles.

• Work your way to the front of any traffic queues, no matter what you have to do or how futile it appears to others. There will often be something interesting there, such as a pole with changing coloured lights.

• If you can't get past the other traffic, use the footpath. If you have feet, you are entitled to use it.

• Ensure that you only go one way along one way streets. On the whole, other road users will be going one way also, but in the opposite direction. They will avoid you.

• Even out road wear by using the opposite carriageway to other traffic on major roads.

• If you see an accident, weave about the road and slow down so you get a good view of the bloody bits. Other road users will appreciate this as it gives them the opportunity to do the same.

And remember,

No motorcyclist has ever been blamed after being involved in an accident !!

[buadhai]

And the holiday madness begins....

It took me just over an hour to drive the 10K from my house into downtown Korat this afternoon. This is a drive I normally won't do anymore anyway, but today I had some errands. (One of which was to buy some tonic to mix with the gin I have at home in order to hasten road rage recovery.)

Anyway, Mittrapap Highway was crammed full of Krungthep license plate cars on their way upcountry. (Why these idiots insist on driving through Korat rather than taking the bypass is beyond me....)

I'm sure there were a few Jai Yen drivers out there, but I didn't see any. I was especially pi55ed off by the Farang who came whipping out onto the highway from Mukmontree road (where there is a universally ignored stop sign) and attempted to force his way in front of me.

I played "chicken" and won. Must have been the first time ever. Lucky I encountered a farang with less courage than I.

I don't plan on getting behind the wheel again until Wednesday or Thursday at the earliest.

[Galong]

"jai yen" is a myth. Thais are no more cool-hearted than anyone else. Anytime anything goes in a way that they don't like, they explode.

They drive two ways: too slow or too fast. I wish they'd get the he11 out of my way.

[dereklev]

.

I played "chicken" and won. Must have been the first time ever. Lucky I encountered a farang with less courage than I.

I don't plan on getting behind the wheel again until Wednesday or Thursday at the earliest.

Glad you finally won at chicken Mike......

I drive expecting all Thai drivers to do something irresponsible whilst in front, behind or alongside of me! !

That way I am never overly suprised by the crazy way they drive.

[lawling]

I've spent alot of time in Thailand and think they have admirable traits as a nationality. I love their patience towards life, they offer many ways of how farangs could be better in daily life, but not with driving!

For a country of patient people they drive cars with absolutely zero patience. Every day I witness extreme driving and acts of shere irresponsibility on the road. Why is this? And why (with this in mind) do a race of "impatient" people such as farangs (minus the French & Italians!) drive in a much more patient manner?

Buddhism teaches compassion yet I find no compassion on a Thai road and zero generosity whereas in all other aspects of life in Thailand this can be found in bucketloads.

This is not meant as an attack on Thai's but i'm sure that every member of this forum will agree that bad driving as a trait of the Thai nation is sadly not a generalisation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well put. Having read the reaction of some posters to someone who may or may not have suggested that some Thais are stupid, could anyone suggest a word that adequately describes the drivers of pick-ups loaded with passengers who pass other vehicles by using the hard shoulder frequently at speed in excess of 130kph. And one to describe the churlish response common among Thai drivers to another road user who extends them an act of courtesy.

[Savage]

And the holiday madness begins....

It took me just over an hour to drive the 10K from my house into downtown Korat this afternoon. This is a drive I normally won't do anymore anyway, but today I had some errands. (One of which was to buy some tonic to mix with the gin I have at home in order to hasten road rage recovery.)

Anyway, Mittrapap Highway was crammed full of Krungthep license plate cars on their way upcountry. (Why these idiots insist on driving through Korat rather than taking the bypass is beyond me....)

I'm sure there were a few Jai Yen drivers out there, but I didn't see any. I was especially pi55ed off by the Farang who came whipping out onto the highway from Mukmontree road (where there is a universally ignored stop sign) and attempted to force his way in front of me.

I played "chicken" and won. Must have been the first time ever. Lucky I encountered a farang with less courage than I.

I don't plan on getting behind the wheel again until Wednesday or Thursday at the earliest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've noticed before that all cars with upcountry plates drive at a maximum of 50km hour and are constantly overtaken on the inside & out by cars with krungthep plates. So are the nations worst offenders from the capital??

[Tippaporn]

Perhaps the Thai driving style is another part of their culture that's hard for farang to fathom?  Possibly, but I don't know.  I do know that I always feel safe on the roads, I don't fret at all that I'll get from point A to point B and back again safely, other drivers don't worry me in the least and therefore don't knock me off my kilter, I have fun on the road and I wouldn't want to change a thing about the driving here.  No fear, no problem.  Jai yen yen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never had to quote myself but this warrants it. Almost to a post this thread is unanimous in it's judgement about the driving situation in Thailand, the gist of which can be said as - I'm scared shitless and, gee, I wish everyone would change so that I could feel safe. Actually, the seemingly invisible and underlying idea that - what makes "me" unhappy is a result of what others are doing and we should all go on a crusade to change them in endless ways so that they're actions are then conducive to my happiness, or if nothing else spend endless hours commiserating with like-minded people - is such a recurring theme on so many topics.

My above post is actually in response to the all the posts here and the gist of it is - I feel safe and I do so not because of what others are or aren't doing but because I've changed myself rather than attempt the impossible, which is to change everyone else. In the meanwhile, I am safe, but more importantly I haven't squandered my happiness. Now, if anyone would like to argue that your happiness isn't worth it then be my guest. All I can say is that, sadly, it's your loss. Take your tranqualizers then, if that's the only option available to you.

Again and again and again the theme here on countless subjects is to look at the other guy, judge him according to one's personal tastes, and if he doesn't fit then 1) there's something wrong with him, 2) he needs to change because he is, afterall, wrong. Never does the thought occur to so many that maybe, maybe they need to change themselves. And if they would do that then maybe, maybe they wouldn't have these problems.

So many people come here, observe what they don't agree with (and believe me, their judgement becomes so self evident that any other idea becomes either literally invisible or completely ludicrous) and then would like to institute change for their own sake - so that they can now agree (and feel better). Let me tell you something if you haven't noticed yet for yourselves - it will never, ever happen. There's too much diversity in the world!

So, you have two choices: 1) bitch and moan eternally, while necessarily and needlessly sacraficing your happiness as you do so, or 2) take a good look at yourself and try to figure out where your own fears are coming from and change that within yourselves.

I love Thailand because generally speaking Thais don't have long noses. They have a much better grasp of the concept "live and let live" and those westerners would be very well off understanding the true meaning of the concept and how it works, for it does.

I'm sure this post will generate a lot of hearty flak and flames. It's been my observation that so many don't want to change their own thoughts about much of anything and rather obstinately argue for ideas that have very little value, and are even detrimental to one's well-being, instead of understanding a new and maybe, maybe better point of view that could possibly lead to a more fulfilling life. Far be it from me to twist people's arms but the lack of mental flexibility so often does astound me.

I'd love to hear some worthy and intelligent rebuttals, or even questions. If you'd like to pull the "aw, you're off you're rocker, you're just an idiot, I don't need anyone to tell me how to live, what makes you think you're so smart" type of response save your breath. You've only proved the point of being mentally inflexible. Also, it would show that you're overly sensitive in regards to constructive criticism (thin skinned) and easily insulted, inferring insult when none is given at all. Rather, take this as a forceful challenge to truly scratch your brains.

[Ulysses G.]

I really like what you have to say here, but still, would hate to get wiped out in a car accident by a bunch of people who drive like nothing-to-lose maniacs on crystal methedrine.

[Savage]

I really like what you have to say here, but still, would hate to get wiped out in a car accident by a bunch of people who drive like nothing-to-lose maniacs on crystal methedrine. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My wife's best friend (currently sitting in the room i'm in) had her Mum run over and killed by a motorbike driver outside her home only 2 months ago. He was driving well over the speed limit on the wrong side of the road. He managed to flee the scene of the accident and was only caught by his injuries giving him away.

I as well appreciated what you've said above and as my original post should suggest, I very much enjoy living in Thailand. My only gripes are the driving conditions here just as the majority of Thai's only gripes about living in the West are the food. Like I say I appreciate all you say above but i'm not going to join you on the driving issue.

[Savage]

I meant to quote Tippaporn as i'm sure you've already guessed.

[Scott]

The issue of poor driving habits and lack of common courtesy when driving actually happens everywhere. It is much more noticeable here in Thailand because of the otherwise politeness of the people--until they get behind the wheel.

What causes this tendency among all people is because of the lack of human contact. You are inside a vehicle, shielded from the psychological effect of your action. If you are walking and bump into someone, usually both people smile and apologize--it makes no difference who actually hit who. Inside the care you lack that human contact that helps defuse and bring out the better side of people.

Most Western countries have air-tight rules of the road and they enforce them, regardless of whether or not their is an accident. The enforcement is the reason people appear more polite. They aren't more polite, but they are fully aware of negative repercussions if they break the law.

Most Western countries also have good education programs about driving, both in school and in public service announcements.

Here, there are poorly worded laws, a complete lack of meaningful enforcement and corruption.

I make it a point to always add an additional 10-15 minutes to my expected travel time so that I can proceed without hurrying and let people cross the street in front of me, let those motorcycles wiz by and not get upset with people cutting in front of me. I put some good music on and try to enjoy myself as best I can.

[leftcross]

Thais do have jai yen when driving. i've seen people get cut up, cut in lines, jump queues etc etc and nobody ever gets out of the cars and starts throwing punches - as they would in the West. the thais just drive how they walk in crowded places .... you can't predict them, you just have to 'feel' what is going on.

[Scott]

Interestingly enough, the BKK Post had a small article about the irritation level of people in Asian countries. Thai's were the most irritated of all the countries surveyed and their # 1 irritation was bad driving. (Bad driving was #1 for the rest of the countries as well).

[cdnvic]

37 people killed in road accidents on Dec 29

Published on Dec 30 , 2005

A total of 37 people were killed on Thursday, the first of seven dangerous New Year holidays, Interior Minister Kongsak Wantana said Friday.

He said there were 408 road accidents on Thursday, resulting in 37 deaths.

He said most of the deaths or 14 of them were from northeastern provinces.

The interior minister said most or 34.8 per cent of the total accidents occurred because drivers violated the speed limit. It followed by drunk driving, which made 18.75 per cent of all road accidents that day, he said.

Most of the accidents happened during 8 pm to midnight, the minister said.

The Nation

[Plus]

I've seen a punchup between drivers here, once.

But I've seen lots of "fights", more than I ever wanted to. Fights between two dickheads trying to prove to each other who's the better (read faster) driver. Those fights usually involve overtaking on hard shoulders and u-turn lanes, cutting through two-three lanes of traffic to get some free space, plenty of "chicken" game when they are nose to nose and so on.

Any long journey and you're likely to find a "fight" to watch.

I must admit that I see where they are coming from and I often get the same rush but I draw the line at managing to keep my cool and I never do anything I consider a dirty trick, like hard shoulder overtaking, and if the opposite numer drives better than me I graciously accept.

It is fun, for me, to try and outdo other drivers - changing lanes at appropriate times, judging traffic ahead, not stumbling on some idiots (like that guy who blocked a huge VIP coach and instead of moving over to the left lane asked his son to take pictures - good idea for "Dealing with pissheads" thread - perfect example of irrational behavior that will put people off), choosing the fastest lane at this time of the day, sometimes this time of the morning - ten - twenty minutes make all the difference to the traffic patters in some places.

Driving in Thailand is fun, and contrary to the topic title there are plenty of drivers with Jai Yen and Kreng Jai- enough for me to be happy, at least.