Are Gay Pride Parades (Globally) Good For The "Gay Community"?

[LeCharivari]

I still find it hard to understand how Gay Pride Parades can be taken by anyone as some sort of measure of how discriminatory (or non-discriminatory) a country is.

Russia - no Gay Pride Parades allowed; no national (or even local) anti-discrimination legislation; no widespread acceptance; open discrimination.

Thailand - minimal and decreasing interest in Gay Pride Parades (not that there ever has been much, apart from by the gay bars - the "activist" priority is, rightly in my view, increased and visible participation in mainstream parades); minimal national or local anti-discrimination legislation; widespread visibility and acceptance; little open discrimination.

UK - home of World Pride 2012 on 7 July - I must have blinked and missed it, though we Brits do love a good carnival (Notting Hill is the 26th and 27th of this month); comprehensive anti-discrimination legislation in all areas; widespread acceptance; little discrimination. Maybe now we've got it, we don't need to flaunt it; maybe people are just bored of it or by it.

Australia - Sydney Mardi Gras is the world's biggest and best known Gay Pride event; no national anti-discrimination legislation, except on a case-by-case basis; widespread acceptance; little discrimination. Mardi Gras's just fun for all concerned.

America - San Francisco Pride is second only to Sydney in fame and size; no national anti-discrimination legislation and limited local legislation in all areas; questionable acceptance; questionable discrimination.

Just a few examples. Just pointing out that Gay Prides are of different importance in different countries and to different people and its impossible to judge everybody and every country by the same yardstick, however important that yardstick may be to some people.

I copied this from another thread as it's far more in topic here (apologies there, IB) and it has also, on reflection, brought me to the same conclusion as JT, albeit getting there by a different route:

I have come to the conclusion that the helpfulness of these gay parades/pride events can't really be generalized internationally, and the meaning of them does change over time. So where I'm at now is that sometimes they are helpful, sometimes they are neutral, and sometimes that can be potentially harmful. (To the cause of civil rights for sexual minorities, obviously.)

I doubt if anyone here would seriously imagine that Prides are any sort of yardstick that could be used to measure how discriminatory (or non-discriminatory) a country is, so I don't see much point in pursuing that any further, but I have realised that Prides can do the gay community a lot of good as long as they progress - and that doesn't just mean "more of the same but bigger".

World Pride (the 2nd, with the first being held in Rome in 2000 and the second planned for Jerusalem being postponed in 2005 then cancelled in 2006) and London Pride 2012 (the 40th) was a non-event. As nobody here (on a "GAY forum") mentioned it, but other Gay Prides have been highlighted, I doubt if anyone here even knew about it. Due to a lack of funds it was only able to go ahead at all after it was re-designated a "protest" rather than a "parade", shifting the cost of security on to the police and the cost of closing Oxford and Regent Streets onto Westminster City Council. Reportedly "contingents from the U.S., Brazil, Germany, Italy, Poland, Palestine, Morocco, Turkey, Sri Lanka and the Philippines were seen in the parade itself ..... a parade that featured demonically clad stilt walkers, angelically clad unicyclists and not-at-all clad dancers" but despite being only three weeks before the 2012 Olympics numbers involved were around 15,000 - 15 years ago 300,000 took part.

A previous Associate Director of Pride London complained that "Pride London has lost the focus of being an LGBT campaigning organisation, instead focusing on partying rather then politics, which is what the community needs when legislation around equal marriage and LGBT rights are still to be won both in the UK and around the world” but when Pater Tatchell et al made their inevitable addresses in Trafalgar Square not only were they preaching to the converted but they went unreported. Little has changed with London Pride, so Brits appear to be simply bored by it, as it's just more of the same "rollerskating nuns and men with their backsides hanging out" (as a lesbian reporter from the Guardian put it). What started out as both a novelty and a legitimate human rights protest has now become just a boring opportunity for some people to have a party and others to thumb their noses at the general public, with a few "activists" making speeches that no-one else is interested in.

In Australia, on the other hand, Sydney Mardi Gras has moved with the times and has achieved a great deal for the gay community in Australia - and, for the first time as far as I can see, achieved something for the community in general which is not just arguably identifiable but which is directly quantifiable as it generates millions of dollars in tourism. Sydney Pride quite probably contributed to the re-defining of marriage in Australian law as being only between a man and a woman as it alienated (and still alienates) the Christian right, but at the same time it publicised gay rights and highlighted discrimination, doing a lot more good to the gay rights cause than it did harm. Now instead of highlighting differences between LGBT and the rest of the world and "returning Pride to its roots" the Sydney Mardi Gras has done the reverse and officially broadened the parade to highlight "diversity" instead of just sexual diversity:

"The Sydney Mardi Gras will always have its thumping gay heart that celebrates the city’s lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex and queer communities, but Mardi Gras is now inviting those who share our positive message about the power and beauty of diversity to be part of our celebration ..... We would love to see people who share our values, but who never thought they would be in the Parade, to approach us and share their ideas. There will always be room for a great float which will both entertain and bring people together. ..... Our hope with this change is to turn Sydney Mardi Gras into an even bigger civic event – right up there with Rio and the world’s other great carnivals – to be enjoyed by everyone, but always remembered as being a gift to the city from its gay and lesbian community and a demonstration of our pride.”

Sydney Mardi Gras has moved on from being a LGBT protest rally to being a "celebration" of diversity - that hasn't watered down the LGBT element in some sort of communal melting pot, but it has helped to make LGBT an accepted (and acceptable) part of the community while retaining their own unique identity. In a similar way after starting off largely as a protest over poor race relations and discrimination the Notting Hill Carnival has become Europe's biggest street festival (albeit still with some isolated violence) celebrating cultural diversity for West Indians who are now an integral part of the community while retaining their own unique identity.

So .... are Gay Pride Parades good for the gay community?

"Yes", if they move with the times and become about diversity, integration, acceptance and adding a unique flavour to the community pot, but ....

"No" if they are just about showing others how little we have in common with them and that we want what's in their pot while remaining firmly separated in our own little pot.

[JemJem]

In a country like Iran, .... , I don't think it would do any good; it might be a quick way to kill off any activists there may be there.

Agreed, IB. Sometimes the organisers appear to be deliberately seeking confrontation, as with the first Gay Pride parades in Bosnia and Budapest which were held in the middle of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

Russia has passed some some severely homophibic laws recently, but the claim that there are Gay Pride Parades in Russia which "put the participants in great personal danger" is incorrect.

Pride parades are generally banned in Russia and the one time that a parade/rally was sanctioned in St Petersburg on 17 May this year the official rally went off quietly* in Petrovsky Park, organised by Coming Out, the Russian gay rights organisation. There was one incident between a member of the rally, who was pepper-sprayed by a protester who was arrested by police, but the parade participants were heavily protected by police and even provided with police/government transport. The violence initially reported at the rally involved a passing busload of immigrants who were attacked by a group of neo-nazi skinheads.

There is no Pride Parade in Moscow, as it has been banned for the past 7 years. This year (last week) there were minor scuffles between the 30 Russian gay rights activists and the similar number of Christian Orthodox protesters who both tried to hold illegal protests outside Parliament and City Hall at the same time; 40 (from both sides) were arrested.

* http://www.advocate....da-law?page=0,0

Russia (and some other countries in Eastern Europe) has a long way to go, regarding achieving gay/lesbian rights.

[LeCharivari]

I wouldn't say "a long way to go" so much as going backwards in leaps and bounds, even among the urban young which is particularly worrying.

Edited August 28, 2012 by LeCharivari

[cdnvic]

I wouldn't say "a long way to go" so much as going backwards in leaps and bounds, even among the urban young which is particularly worrying.

Where do you get this from?

[LeCharivari]

I wouldn't say "a long way to go" so much as going backwards in leaps and bounds, even among the urban young which is particularly worrying.

Where do you get this from?

Going backwards?

Looking at the anti-gay legislation that has been passed in the last couple of years alone. Since 1993, when homosexuality was de-criminalised, the only progress has been to allow transgenders to change their status after full GRS, in1997, and officially de-classifying it as a mental illness in 1999.

On the other hand, a number of Russian cities and regions (seven) have banned not only Pride parades (although St Petersburg held one, now also banned) but anything promoting homosexuality, bi-sexuality, transgenderism and pedophilia including any "generally accessible information", public speaking and education and the ban is being considered by the upper house of the Soviet parliament which would extend it to federal level (supported by the speaker).

In a 2010 survey 18% of the population said that homosexuals should be "isolated" from society - an improvement, I suppose, from the poll 15 years before where 25% said they should be isolated and an additional 12% said they should be executed.

Urban youth?

Looking at the age of those debating gay issues publicly (very occasionally) on state controlled TV: those for gay rights are usually middle-aged, while the visible youth element are opposing gay rights. The same holds true for those supporting prides and those protesting them. Its quite possible (even probable) that a lot of this is due to fear, but that fear is very real and it isn't of the authorities so much as of rejection and violence by peers generally and by young neo-Nazis and Orthodox Christians (and Muslims) in particular.

Its also the view of the Moscow Helsinki Group and the Russian LGBT Network, which are widely recognised as being authoritative.

http://www.mhg.ru/english

[pxlgirl]

Ok, here are my 2 cents, I haven't read all the replies, so my apologies if I repeat what already has been said. Parades do have good intentions, such as raising awareness, fighting for gay rights etc... But on the other side of the token, they seem to feed the stereotypes that many straights have about gays, which is mainly either dudes in dresses and make up and chicks with short hair and male clothing, or feminine/masculine couple constellations. Some might say, what's wrong with that? Well, nothing, unless it's within an exclusive group. But don't we want to be integrated into the society as a whole? If yes, then we have to show that we are a part of this society. However, just like any other minority group, we fall for the same psychological structures like any other group, with dogmas, quasi-standards and a declared "enemy". And don't you dare not to follow...

[LeCharivari]

I wouldn't say "a long way to go" so much as going backwards in leaps and bounds, even among the urban young which is particularly worrying.

Where do you get this from?

What I should add to my previous reply is that this doesn't appear to be as a reaction or backlash to gays having a higher profile or being more "visible" (for example by Pride parades), as may be the case elsewhere. All those things that make gays more visible, such as a national LGBT organisation, gay bars and clubs, gay magazines and publications, etc, date from the Yeltsin and even the Gorbachov eras, a decade or two before the recent legislation and homophobia in Russia. All that Putin has done is to distance himself from anything to do with either, saying that they are local issues.

The reason appears to be growing nationalism which makes being Russian almost incompatible with being gay - possibly as a hangover from Stalinism, but far more probably because of the influence of the Russian Orthodox Church which has condemned homosexuality and strongly supported the Duma extending local bans on "promoting homosexuality" to federal level.

Although church and state are supposed to be separate in Russia the present Russian Orthodox Patriarch (Kirill I) is a very vocal Putin supporter, calling him "a miracle from God", and virtually all those arrested for attacking attempted Prides have been supporters of the Orthodox Church - including those who, when prevented by police from attacking the Pride rally in St Petersburg in 2010, turned their attention instead to stoning and attacking a passing bus of migrant workers.

[Scott]

It sounds like they have a long way to go in a lot of areas, not just gay rights.

[LeCharivari]

If you look at the "Pussy Riot" case, Scott, you'll see that according to polls and press reaction inside Russia many supported their being arrested, tried and sentenced - not because they said anything about Putin (that's not news, it happens all the time!) but because they broke into and "sang" in the soleas of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Saviour (the "holy of holies" to the Russian oprthodox).

Whether you agree with their sentence or not, its a bit like someone urinating on the eternal flame in Arlington National Cemetery, posting a video of it on YouTube and claiming it was a valid political statement. There are some things that are rightly unacceptable, however valid the point being made, and which are totally counter-productive; some would say that applies to Prides, but as I've said above I think it all depends on the circumstances and the country and you can't just look at one thing in isolation.

[Fookhaht]

Gay parades are lightning rods. And lightning is usually not a good thing.

[Jingthing]

Gay parades are lightning rods. And lightning is usually not a good thing.

I consider that a silly generalization. Anyway, it depends on the application of the lightning.

[Fookhaht]

Gay parades are lightning rods. And lightning is usually not a good thing.

I consider that a silly generalization. Anyway, it depends on the application of the lightning.

I consider your silly generalization as an equally silly generalization. Reminds me of the saying, "All generalizations are bad including this one."

[cdnvic]

Please.... discuss the topic, don't take shots at each other.

[Swiss1960]

From what I have seen over the years in Switzerland, at the beginning there were gay pride demonstrations with growing amount of people who had a clear political message against discrimination and for acceptance of their personal lifestyle... and for me, the growing amount of people who joined these demonstrations clearly showed that their was a huge value not only for achieving more civil rights, but mainly for giving other people the strenght to say "you are not alone, join is in the fight"...

Now however, as their has been huge progress with regards to acceptance and civil rights (in Switzerland), there are maybe 5-10% of the people joining the gay pride showse who still have a political message... for the rest, it's just a day out having fun, dressed in extravagant clothes and loads of drag queens marching in those parades. And that might be detrimental to the gay and lesbian community, as spectators very often will say "look how crazy these homosexuals behave" and those spectators will have no clue about where these gay pride parades actually came from...

[Jingthing]

Here's a new twist from our friends in Russia.

Gay pride parades? Sure!

But only at night with flashlights and no amplifiers so the kiddies don't see it or hear it.

You couldn't make this stuff up!

Lest he be considered homophobic, though, Degtyarev said he is not opposed to LGBT pride rallies, although Moscow has banned such events for the next 100 years. Degtyarev, however, said the new nationwide "antipropaganda" law, passed unanimously by the State Duma and signed by President Vladimir Putin in June, does not prohibit Pride parades and other pro-LGBT expressions that cannot be viewed by children.

"But it is very possible to hold [Pride events] at night, with flashlights and without amplifiers," said Degtyarev, according to RT.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/2013/08/26/russian-lawmaker-wants-offer-free-ex-gay-therapy

[Jingthing]

There are scads of drunks at the Irish parades but NOBODY is suggesting Irish people shouldn't be able to marry ... 'nuff said.

[MrRealDeal]

No but they are probably saying they should sober up and since one of the goals of an Irish parade would be to improve their reputation of being drunks they are accomplishing the same thing as gay people would do in a parade that made them look poorly ......... which is one more time for you ............ parades accomplish only what the people in them are able to accomplish and that depends on the parade and the people in them.

[Jingthing]

Thank you for sharing your OPINION, MRD.

I still think that qualitatively gay parades are different because gay people emerged in the last decades as a self asserting IDENTITY group that really didn't exist before as an identity group. There is a real question in a number of societies whether gay people are a "real" identity group similar or equivalent to "ethnic" groups like Irish people, and I don't think that debate is going to go away anytime soon.

[Jingthing]

I didn't mean LITERALLY an ethnic group. Obviously not. It's more about a political construct which has indeed been adopted and popularized starting with the pre-Nazi homosexual theorists and on to Stonewall and beyond.

Supporters, in turn, utilize language of civil rights that constructs gays as a legal minority group, both to gain judicial solicitude and to sway broader audiences.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-213693372.html

Edited August 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[JDGRUEN]

Are Gay Pride Parades (Globally) Good For The "Gay Community"?

NO... Public Relations wise - they are an abject failure -- bringing about the reverse of what may be intended by the organizers.

Better yet ... organize a charity - get the people together build houses for poor people --

And please - just stop with all the flamboyant stuff - it only turns the public off... Flamboyance and victimhood don't play well together ...

I am sure many of you folks don't want to hear this -- but maybe you should... Being just a person - not obsessed with displays of gayness plays a lot better in the overall community. You'd be surprised as to how much more tolerance there is when one does not go around pushing 'gayness' into peoples' faces ...

I doubt what one old straight guy says will make any difference. I happen to like the sight of naked or semi-nude women ... but I do not wish for a parade of them is exotic and erotic costumes parading down main street while playing with themselves... There is a time and a place for everything ...

[Jingthing]

...

I happen to like the sight of naked or semi-nude women ... but I do not wish for a parade of them is exotic and erotic costumes parading down main street while playing with themselves... There is a time and a place for everything ...

I take it you're not Brazilian?

I think most likely you've actually never BEEN to major gay pride event. They are a LOT MORE than you think.

My feeling is that if people don't like gay parades, don't go to them. Yes I personally got bored with them but I know they are very, very meaningful to many people ESPECIALLY younger and older people just coming out in homophobic societies, which means most everywhere.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

Are Gay Pride Parades (Globally) Good For The "Gay Community"?

NO... Public Relations wise - they are an abject failure -- bringing about the reverse of what may be intended by the organizers.

Better yet ... organize a charity - get the people together build houses for poor people --

And please - just stop with all the flamboyant stuff - it only turns the public off... Flamboyance and victimhood don't play well together ...

I am sure many of you folks don't want to hear this -- but maybe you should... Being just a person - not obsessed with displays of gayness plays a lot better in the overall community. You'd be surprised as to how much more tolerance there is when one does not go around pushing 'gayness' into peoples' faces ...

I doubt what one old straight guy says will make any difference. I happen to like the sight of naked or semi-nude women ... but I do not wish for a parade of them is exotic and erotic costumes parading down main street while playing with themselves... There is a time and a place for everything ...

I agree with you (except the semi naked female part )

For years my business was approached to be a sponsor of the local gay parade and I refused time and time again. When the organisers realised we happened to be gay and serviced the gay community in our business they started to listen and we mentioned charity projects- walks, runs, art in the park festivals, sport, woof fest type events - real community events where I could take a 2 year neice or my 92 year old Nan. The money people always understood this but the old timers who were radicals in the day wont accept change.

Perhaps in the day the shock value of we're here were queer had some affect on rights but IMHO it's a circus today.

When the media reports the parade I usually cringe and change the channel because I don't feel they represent my community nor my sexual orientation the way I would like to be portrayed. I don't like labels and I can do without their help.

I have never attended one and the majority of my gay friends/family do not attend them, the parades won't go away but I wish they would run the silly parade at the start of the event rather than making it the highlight at the end of the week end.

[Jingthing]

The "Onion" weights in on that matter. Well, in 2001 they did:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/gaypride-parade-sets-mainstream-acceptance-of-gays,351/

WEST HOLLYWOOD, CA–The mainstream acceptance of gays and lesbians, a hard-won civil-rights victory gained through decades of struggle against prejudice and discrimination, was set back at least 50 years Saturday in the wake of the annual Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade.WEST HOLLYWOOD, CA–The mainstream acceptance of gays and lesbians, a hard-won civil-rights victory gained through decades of struggle against prejudice and discrimination, was set back at least 50 years Saturday in the wake of the annual Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade.Parade organizers vowed to make changes in the wake of the negative reaction among heterosexuals.

...

"I knew it. I said we needed 100 dancers on the 'Show Us Your Ass' float, but everybody insisted that 50 would be enough," said Lady Labia, spokesperson for LAGALABATATA. "Next year, we're really going to give those breeders something to look at."

[Jingthing]

This "new modesty" will be welcomed by many.

In a controversy that threatened to overshadow the 30th anniversary of Dallas’ gay Pride parade, some LGBT activists expressed outrage this week after organizers reminded participants about the need for the event to be family-friendly and said nudity and lewd behavior will no longer be tolerated.

http://www.dallasvoice.com/lgbt-activists-outraged-dress-code-dallas-pride-10156651.html

Personally, I don't really care either way but I understand both sides of the debate.

[Scott]

As the politics and the cultural attitudes move in a more gay friendly direction, it will mean that gays will need to be a little more mainstream. If gay families are going to pick up grandma and grandpa and take them with the kids to a gay parade, it will need to be family friendly, IMO.

As offensive as some people found some of the decadent gay parades, they did get attention and they did put the gay issue on the agenda. People also started to realize that there were a lot of gay people. There is strength in numbers.

It will a real testament to the gay community if they can continue to provide the entertainment and the style and the creativity they are known for and do so in a family-friendly manner -- or reasonably close.