Sexism In Thai Buddhism

[jmdf103]

in a previous post i conveyed my grievances at percieved inequality in thai buddhism.

today again i saw something that made me sad, while waiting for my ferry to langkawi i noticed a group of monks and nuns drinking coffee in the ferry terminal coffee shop. I also ordered some coffee so i could observe their behavior. It saddened me when the nuns felt the need to take role of waitresses by serving the monks their coffee and cookies. One of the two nuns was around 60 years of age, and to see her having to kneel on the floor while serving coffee to a 30 year old monk made me realise that simply because of her sex, she commands a lower status than these younger monks. Surely she has sacrificed in life as much as a male monk?

An interesting article.

http://www.studentpulse.com/articles/213/against-the-wind-differences-and-similarities-between-buddhist-monks-and-nuns

can any nuns share their experiences please?

[hansnl]

That is the way it is in Thailand.

You want to change it?

Good luck

[Seeker1953]

Curious, I didn't read the OP wanting to change it, but asked for understanding. I'd be interested in understanding too.

I've gone to temples with Thai friends. Often the women will suggest I go inside a particular building while she waits outside. I asked why. She explained women are not allowed inside.

I didn't press it, just accepted that's the way things are.

And still, if there are those out there who can help me understand, I'd be grateful.

Not looking to change it, just understand.

thanks,

Seeker

[dingdang]

easy explanation...

in buddhism the highest (and best) form to be reborn (maybe the word is "reincarnation") is a human male...

then there comes somewhere the women, not sure if it was on rank 2 or rank 3...

women are inferior to males in buddhism... nobody will deny that, just ask them...

Edited July 4, 2012 by dingdang

[fabianfred]

It is not really "..forced to act as waiters..."

Monks cannot take anything which has not been offered to them, except water, so if you placed a cup of coffee beside them or a plate of cookies, they could not touch them. You have to physically offer them with both hands and they receive into their hands or a cloth they are holding.

This is so that monks only eat what has been offered to them since they cannot grow their own food, or even dig the soil or damage living plants, so if they grew something they couldn't harvest it.

This ensures that they do the morning alms-round and not get lazy and just stay in the temples waiting for lay people to bring them stuff (a common event nowadays unfortunately.)

A true monk would have respect and have a feeling of gratitute when receiving things.

Since women receive more suffering in life than men they are more inclined to practice. Many laywomen practice better than many monks. They tend to have more patience and so often make better progress in their practice than men.

[huli]

I don't think you will find any Thai nuns on this forum to comment on this. I've never heard of any.

As JMD mentions, he has previously posted on this issue. His previous post involved what he perceived as inequality when monks got preferred seating at a bus station. There was quite a bit of response to this post, including mine. Many reasons were offered JMD as to why monks get deference in this Thai Buddhist society. However, it appears that the explanations fell on deaf ears.

In this present post, JMD has followed a group of monks and nuns into a ferry station coffee shop to "observe them". In this context, it is clear that he was looking for any sign of inequality, which is his pet peeve, so to speak. As in the bus station, so the ferry. People keep giving deference to the monks.

Most of the comments to his previous thread are applicable here. People giving deference to monks does not make them feel inferior or have low self-esteem. Even if they are older, or women, they enjoy serving the monks.

I would suggest that you have been conditioned by Western Culture to value equality as the Supreme Virtue. This idea has been rampant in the West for, I don't know, 30 years now? IMO, it is not that simple, and it is naive to criticize Thai Buddhist culture and society because of your conditioned fixation on equality as the ultimate virtue.

A closer analysis of western culture, with pros and cons, is beyond the scope of this Buddhist Forum. I would suggest, however, that Western Culture has not all been a bowl of cherries, to say the least.

It is all very interesting how they do things over here.

Edited July 5, 2012 by huli

[rockyysdt]

I don't think you will find any Thai nuns on this forum to comment on this. I've never heard of any.

As JMD mentions, he has previously posted on this issue. His previous post involved what he perceived as inequality when monks got preferred seating at a bus station. There was quite a bit of response to this post, including mine. Many reasons were offered JMD as to why monks get deference in this Thai Buddhist society. However, it appears that the explanations fell on deaf ears.

In this present post, JMD has followed a group of monks and nuns into a ferry station coffee shop to "observe them". In this context, it is clear that he was looking for any sign of inequality, which is his pet peeve, so to speak. As in the bus station, so the ferry. People keep giving deference to the monks.

Most of the comments to his previous thread are applicable here. People giving deference to monks does not make them feel inferior or have low self-esteem. Even if they are older, or women, they enjoy serving the monks.

I would suggest that you have been conditioned by Western Culture to value equality as the Supreme Virtue. This idea has been rampant in the West for, I don't know, 30 years now? IMO, it is not that simple, and it is naive to criticize Thai Buddhist culture and society because of your conditioned fixation on equality as the ultimate virtue.

A closer analysis of western culture, with pros and cons, is beyond the scope of this Buddhist Forum. I would suggest, however, that Western Culture has not all been a bowl of cherries, to say the least.

It is all very interesting how they do things over here.

Hi Huli.

I also have some form of attachment over the situation women find themselves in traditional Buddhism.

My understanding is that it is difficult to remove cultural influences from a community.

Because of this Buddhism and Culture are enmesshed.

Buddhism in many Eastern countries has a different flavor to Buddhism in Western countries due to cultural influences.

My view is that cultural influence is a form of conditioning to which the ego can attach.

Coming back to the nuns, women in Eastern Traditional Buddhism can never aspire to be Monks due to a technical reason which many will debate.

Unfortunately this fits into Eastern cultural beliefs making it difficult to find someone to champion their cause.

To clarify this issue for JMD, during the Buddhas lifetime women Monks (Bikkhunis) existed.

The Buddha ordained both men (Bikkhus) & women (Bikkhunis) to Monkhood.

As the Buddha is no longer alive, Bikkhus can only be ordained by existing Bikkhus.

This maintains a lineage going back to the Buddha.

It was declared that a Bikkhuni can only be ordained by existing Bikkhunis.

Unfortunately as the lineage was broken (no Bikkhunis) new Bikkhunis have no one to ordain them.

Due to this situation current Bikkhunis cannot be officially recognized as there was no Bikkhuni with lieage to ordain them.

The technical issue is:

Bikkhus can only be ordained by Bikkhus with unbroken lineage.

Bikkhunis can only be ordained by Bikkhunis with unbroken lineage.

Why?

Who declared this?

I've heard people say that women shouldn't worry.

They should dilligently follow Dharma and if this go well they may be only one re birth away from being born as a man, and then be able to access Monkhood and perhaps Awakening.

If re birth turns out to be moment to moment and not re birth into future lives after death, then this practice is unfortunate for women, as dilligent ones have been robbed of an opportunity to devote their lives to practice as Monks.

Someone may be able to qualify, but I suspect the Nun category, with the support of a quality Monastery, offers women the resources to devote themselves to Dharma and Awakening without some of the baggage associated with Monkhood anyway.

I'd say, if the Buddha was alive today he'd very soon clear up the matter.

Edited July 5, 2012 by rockyysdt

[AyG]

I'm a little surprised there's been no reference to precepts in the previous comments. Monks follow 227 precepts in Thailand, and nuns 8 (or, occasionally, 10). It's the number of precepts that gives the status, not the gender.

[brit1984]

I know Buddhism isn't strictly a religion, but like most religions it was invented a long time ago when sexual equality was less widespread.

I would not be at all surprised if (like most religions) it inherently assumes that men and women are not equal.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

[Several]

Seem to recall Buddha saying most women are more devout practitioners than men, or something to that effect. Allowing the Bhikkuni order to run out and keeping very strict rules about contact with the opposite sex may have been due to mens weakness as much as womens. Did Buddha ever say women were inferior? Sure I'll find out soon.

In the 1920's a high level yogi (who's name escapes me) decided to teach yoga to women for the first time in its history and against public opinion. But as he predicted yoga has exploded into a global phenomenon with upward of 95% of practitioners being women. I have always had female yoga teachers and sometimes been the only male in class. This agrees with what Buddha said about women being focused more on the spiritual than men in general.

The priblem most likely boils down to Sila (morality).

[Xangsamhua]

Men are good explorers of the external world. They've gone out and opened up new lands and created the physical conditions for women to manage families and build relationships in community.

But men, on the whole, don't seem to be as interested as women in spiritual or inner exploration, or at least not where I come from. They're also not as interested in their own physical health. So it follows, as Several has pointed out, that most students of yoga are female.

There are now fewer lands to conquer, and men have to review their primary roles and purposes. Those who don't turn inward at all are in danger of becoming redundant, relics of a previous evolutionary stage. There's no reason why adventurous men would not find this inward turn challenging, but as Rocky has been arguing, their conditioning holds them back.

And the conditioning of those who make and preserve the rules in Thai Buddhism that holds them back in regard to ordination and recognition of bhikkhunis.

There's no rational ground that I can fathom why Thailand can't recognize bhikkhunis as equal in the sangha. The reasons trotted out against it are as spurious as those produced by the Vatican against female ordination. It's just tradition and conservatism. Sclerotic old men, trapped in fear of change.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Xangsamhua

[camerata]

The nuns in the OP didn't "feel the need" to act as waitresses. Helping out a monk in just about any way is seen as a way of making merit (and this is largely supported by the scriptures), so they wanted to do it and very probably felt joyful about doing it.

Nuns (mae chi) in Thailand are not female monks. They are women who observe just 10-precepts. So one would not expect them to be equal with monks in status. Even within the monkhood, junior monks prostrate to senior monks (those with more continuous time in robes and hence more experience), so it isn't exactly a "flat" structure.

Looking at Thailand through the prism of Western culture doesn't really work - if you want to understand it.

[camerata]

I've gone to temples with Thai friends. Often the women will suggest I go inside a particular building while she waits outside. I asked why. She explained women are not allowed inside.

As far as I recall, this is an animist belief (that women tend to weaken "spiritual power") that pre-dates Buddhism in Thailand but was incorporated into it mainly in the North. In my experience, the areas women can't go contain a sacred image or relic.

[camerata]

in buddhism the highest (and best) form to be reborn (maybe the word is "reincarnation") is a human male...

Some people believe this but, significantly, the Buddha didn't say anything like it. There were female arahants in the Buddha's time.

[sabaijai]

I don't think you will find any Thai nuns on this forum to comment on this. I've never heard of any.

As JMD mentions, he has previously posted on this issue. His previous post involved what he perceived as inequality when monks got preferred seating at a bus station. There was quite a bit of response to this post, including mine. Many reasons were offered JMD as to why monks get deference in this Thai Buddhist society. However, it appears that the explanations fell on deaf ears.

In this present post, JMD has followed a group of monks and nuns into a ferry station coffee shop to "observe them". In this context, it is clear that he was looking for any sign of inequality, which is his pet peeve, so to speak. As in the bus station, so the ferry. People keep giving deference to the monks.

Most of the comments to his previous thread are applicable here. People giving deference to monks does not make them feel inferior or have low self-esteem. Even if they are older, or women, they enjoy serving the monks.

I would suggest that you have been conditioned by Western Culture to value equality as the Supreme Virtue. This idea has been rampant in the West for, I don't know, 30 years now? IMO, it is not that simple, and it is naive to criticize Thai Buddhist culture and society because of your conditioned fixation on equality as the ultimate virtue.

A closer analysis of western culture, with pros and cons, is beyond the scope of this Buddhist Forum. I would suggest, however, that Western Culture has not all been a bowl of cherries, to say the least.

It is all very interesting how they do things over here.

Well said.

[KeyserSoze01]

I saw this thread when first started and decided to watch the replies before commenting myself to determine the tone it was going to take.

What the OP witnessed was deference and reverence being shown to the monks as has been done for a millennium. It is part of the Buddhist dogma and part of the culture as a whole. You cannot apply western concepts of equality to every relationship between humans on the planet. Much as the west should not apply their cultural norms to other societies that have developed over time. The sooner the PC western mindset comes to terms with this and stops meddling with other cultures, the better.

Edited July 6, 2012 by KeyserSoze01

[theblether]

I'm defeated by this phraseology, the OP mentions the word nun, Huli says they don't exist, can someone clarify?

[fabianfred]

There are lay-followers. Upasok & Upasika who dress in white at the temple and keep eight precepts. Usually those on a meditation retreat for example. They are practicing followers of the buddha and are included in the Sangha nowadays.

In Buddhas time he ordained Bhikkhus, and Bikkhunis, and Samanera and Samaneri, but the lineage ran out for the women and their novices. Now in thailand we call Nuns those who are Upasika and also live in a temple, dress in white robes rather than just clothes, and shave their heads. They keep eight precepts same as Upasok Upasika. Some might also try to keep the 300+ rules of a Bhikkhuni for their own practice.

[IMA_FARANG]

There are lay-followers. Upasok & Upasika who dress in white at the temple and keep eight precepts. Usually those on a meditation retreat for example. They are practicing followers of the buddha and are included in the Sangha nowadays.

In Buddhas time he ordained Bhikkhus, and Bikkhunis, and Samanera and Samaneri, but the lineage ran out for the women and their novices. Now in thailand we call Nuns those who are Upasika and also live in a temple, dress in white robes rather than just clothes, and shave their heads. They keep eight precepts same as Upasok Upasika. Some might also try to keep the 300+ rules of a Bhikkhuni for their own practice.

Thank you for that information fabienfred....it seems that at least some of the other posters didn't know tthat information.

Yes, it's the fact that in Thailand....because there are no Bhikkhunis to ordain other Bhikkhuni....no new Bhikkhuni are recognised by the Thai sangha.

Those "nuns" as the OP called them were in fact lay volunteers who for their own reasons undertook to dedicate themselves to service for the ordained monks.....who as you pointed out are not allowed by their vows to perform certain acts.....as per the example mentioned above even getting a cup of coffee for themselves. In their (the "nuns") view they perform this service out of respect for the ordained monks and to gain "merit" for themselves by that service.

Also, for those posters who don't perhaps know, fabienfred speaks from his own experience as he was a monk who voluntarily disrobed for personal family related reasons...and who hopes sometime to return to the practice.

The point is, that on this subject he speaks from his own personal experience; and therefore it would be wise to at least listen to what he has to say before making hastey conclusions, wouldn't it?

[rockyysdt]

Yes, it's the fact that in Thailand....because there are no Bhikkhunis to ordain other Bhikkhuni....no new Bhikkhuni are recognised by the Thai sangha.

Those "nuns" as the OP called them were in fact lay volunteers who for their own reasons undertook to dedicate themselves to service for the ordained monks.....who as you pointed out are not allowed by their vows to perform certain acts.....as per the example mentioned above even getting a cup of coffee for themselves. In their (the "nuns") view they perform this service out of respect for the ordained monks and to gain "merit" for themselves by that service.

To balance this information, would it be fair to say, that a significant number of these dedicated Nuns (Upasika) would actually be Monks (Bikkhunis) given the opportunity?

That the only reason, for many of them, that they are Nuns (Upasika), is that this is the highest position they can aspire to, given the cultural ceiling to their ascension.

Then, based on the previous information, perhaps male Monks, lower in the pecking order, would bow to them, and male laypeople might serve them a hot chocolate milk drink to gain merit.

Edited July 7, 2012 by rockyysdt

[huli]

I'm defeated by this phraseology, the OP mentions the word nun, Huli says they don't exist, can someone clarify?

The word nun is probably more than anything just borrowed from the Catholics as a rough translation by farangs. However, it is useful for us, if not exact.

Huli did not say nuns do not exist, he said he did not think there were any nuns on this Forum, and since none have responded, he may be right.

[theblether]

I'm defeated by this phraseology, the OP mentions the word nun, Huli says they don't exist, can someone clarify?

The word nun is probably more than anything just borrowed from the Catholics as a rough translation by farangs. However, it is useful for us, if not exact.

Huli did not say nuns do not exist, he said he did not think there were any nuns on this Forum, and since none have responded, he may be right.

Thanks for that, what would be the correct term for a nun? Are they held in the same esteem as Catholic nuns? Is their role effectively the same as Catholic nuns?

[huli]

I'm defeated by this phraseology, the OP mentions the word nun, Huli says they don't exist, can someone clarify?

The word nun is probably more than anything just borrowed from the Catholics as a rough translation by farangs. However, it is useful for us, if not exact.

Huli did not say nuns do not exist, he said he did not think there were any nuns on this Forum, and since none have responded, he may be right.

Thanks for that, what would be the correct term for a nun? Are they held in the same esteem as Catholic nuns? Is their role effectively the same as Catholic nuns?

Hi Blether,

Some of the other comments above explain specifically about these Buddhist women in white. I wouldn't know how to compare them actually to Catholic nuns, except they are religious women who wear a distinguishing uniform of sorts. I would imagine the esteem given them or nuns is all over the board, so hard to answer that question. I don't think their role can be called similar to nuns, but you can draw your own conclusions from the posts above.

In retrospect, it may have been a mistake to call them nuns.

[bankei]

Hi

There is sexism in Thai Buddhism - but is this sexism?

The nuns would have been willingly serving the monks. The monks would not have asked them to do this. It is a hierarchical society with monks at the top, or near it.

In Australia men earn more money than woman on average. Is this sexism?

Bankei

[hookedondhamma]

Hi

There is sexism in Thai Buddhism - but is this sexism?

The nuns would have been willingly serving the monks. The monks would not have asked them to do this. It is a hierarchical society with monks at the top, or near it.

In Australia men earn more money than woman on average. Is this sexism?

Bankei

That's a good question, Bankei.

I'll admit as well when I first started going to the temple, I was taken aback, as it was something completely foreign to me. But that slowly started to change the more I went, and interacted with those monks, machees and laypeople who were there on a regular basis. Now I don't see so much of a problem with it, though there are times when my former mentality will make a brief cameo.

It's good to see you posting in the Buddhism forum, theblether. I do enjoy reading your posts very much! Welcome!

Edited July 8, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[khaowong1]

A good person to ask these questions about Mae-Chi's and monks etc. is Ajahn Brahm in Australia. He's had a lot of experience, if you recall.

If anyone happens to find an e-mail address where he can be reached, I would be grateful, as I have many questions to ask him. Thanks

Phra Ajahn Bill

[Xangsamhua]

A good person to ask these questions about Mae-Chi's and monks etc. is Ajahn Brahm in Australia. He's had a lot of experience, if you recall.

If anyone happens to find an e-mail address where he can be reached, I would be grateful, as I have many questions to ask him. Thanks

Phra Ajahn Bill

A good person to ask these questions about Mae-Chi's and monks etc. is Ajahn Brahm in Australia. He's had a lot of experience, if you recall.

If anyone happens to find an e-mail address where he can be reached, I would be grateful, as I have many questions to ask him. Thanks

Phra Ajahn Bill

Sorry Phra Ajahn Bill, Ajahn Brahm doesn't use email. http://www.ajahnbrahm.org/index.php

Would fax be convenient? His fax number is +61 8 9525 3420.

Regards

Xangsamhua

Tel: +61 (0)8 9525 2420</span></span></span></span>

Fax: +61 (0)8 9525 3420

Ajahn does not use e-mail for contacts

Edited July 9, 2012 by Xangsamhua

[orchis]

Ajarn Brahm was here last month. He told me he doesn't do email, has no time for correspondence, he is also on the road a lot.

(I had asked for his email address but he told me to ask my questions there and then - in the moment as it were ).

There is a forward movement in establishing theravada bhikkuni sangha in Thailand and outside these last few years:

-Sakyadhita Conferende in Bangkok last year;

-There is a website thaibikkhunis(dot)org;

- I met quite a few bhikkunis (ordained, orange robes) e.g. in a temple close to Nakorn Pathom and at a lecture giving by Ajarn Amaro last month.

while not recognized by the Thai sangha, they remarked there is freedom of religion in Thailand;

-Information about the Ajarn Brahm/ bhikkuni issue can easily be found on the internet,

I hope this information is helpful.

O.

[camerata]

To balance this information, would it be fair to say, that a significant number of these dedicated Nuns (Upasika) would actually be Monks (Bikkhunis) given the opportunity?

Apparently not:

"Mae chis in general, however, are not struggling for full ordination. Although a few of the mae chis I have interviewed state that they would be interested in receiving full ordination if it were possible in Thailand, most report that they would rather develop themselves spiritually as mae chis." - Women's Buddhism, Buddhism's Women p.46

[rockyysdt]

To balance this information, would it be fair to say, that a significant number of these dedicated Nuns (Upasika) would actually be Monks (Bikkhunis) given the opportunity?

Apparently not:

"Mae chis in general, however, are not struggling for full ordination. Although a few of the mae chis I have interviewed state that they would be interested in receiving full ordination if it were possible in Thailand, most report that they would rather develop themselves spiritually as mae chis." - Women's Buddhism, Buddhism's Women p.46

Thanks Camerata.

I'm not surprised by their response.

Could this partly be possible due to the teaching these women have been influenced by?

Through my interaction with them I've noted that they can be very devout and strict in terms of cultural as well as canonical side of Buddhism.

If one offers them equality, is it possible they are not accepting of this as they may believe it goes against Buddhas teachings?

Edited July 9, 2012 by rockyysdt