Sexism In Thai Buddhism

[camerata]

Not as far as I know. If you google around a bit you'll find an interview with the head bhikkhuni in Thailand in which she is told that most mae chi don't want to become bhikkhuni. As I recall, she says something like she supposes they find following 311 precepts too much of a hassle.

[sirchai]

It is not really "..forced to act as waiters..."

Monks cannot take anything which has not been offered to them, except water, so if you placed a cup of coffee beside them or a plate of cookies, they could not touch them. You have to physically offer them with both hands and they receive into their hands or a cloth they are holding.

This is so that monks only eat what has been offered to them since they cannot grow their own food, or even dig the soil or damage living plants, so if they grew something they couldn't harvest it.

This ensures that they do the morning alms-round and not get lazy and just stay in the temples waiting for lay people to bring them stuff (a common event nowadays unfortunately.)

A true monk would have respect and have a feeling of gratitute when receiving things.

Since women receive more suffering in life than men they are more inclined to practice. Many laywomen practice better than many monks. They tend to have more patience and so often make better progress in their practice than men.

A Thai monk had explained that to me as following.:

A long time ago, monks went their path to sample food from farmers. Farmers usually left food for them at several places.

Once a monk took food from a farmer that wasn't for him. From that time on, people have to give whatever they want to the monks.

[NormanChomsky]

i too have often felt sadness at the lack of standing thai nuns have, last week i accompanied a friend of mine to ตักบาตรเทโว (dag baad tey wo) at the local wat in her country village in Pichit. The procession of monks came out headed by who i assumed to be the top dog / abbot. He pushed before him on a wheel chair a giant alms bowl i would say 50 cm in diameter. The chain of monks came through (novices included), to which the people offered their money/food/drink, gradually those offering depleted what they had, and left to go home. Then last in line of the 100 or so monks came a 60-65 year old nun who hardly got any offerings because most of the villagers had left. What kind of system allows such a lifelong devotee to have to defer to novices purely based on her sex? I'm certain that most of the novices who were there receiving, were they because their parents told them to, as opposed to this dignified lady who was there through choice.

Hate to grumble but this is important. How can women in thai society ever improve their situation if thai buddhism who most thais respect, sets such a bad example.

hopefully one day nuns will be prominent in the sangha

[rockyysdt]

i too have often felt sadness at the lack of standing thai nuns have, last week i accompanied a friend of mine to ตักบาตรเทโว (dag baad tey wo) at the local wat in her country village in Pichit. The procession of monks came out headed by who i assumed to be the top dog / abbot. He pushed before him on a wheel chair a giant alms bowl i would say 50 cm in diameter. The chain of monks came through (novices included), to which the people offered their money/food/drink, gradually those offering depleted what they had, and left to go home. Then last in line of the 100 or so monks came a 60-65 year old nun who hardly got any offerings because most of the villagers had left. What kind of system allows such a lifelong devotee to have to defer to novices purely based on her sex? I'm certain that most of the novices who were there receiving, were they because their parents told them to, as opposed to this dignified lady who was there through choice.

Hate to grumble but this is important. How can women in thai society ever improve their situation if thai buddhism who most thais respect, sets such a bad example.

hopefully one day nuns will be prominent in the sangha

The picture you paint describes a caste breaking key Buddhist teachings.

• Lacking in Awareness.
  
• Lacking in Karuna.
  
• Lacking in Metta.
  
• 
  
• Display of greed.
  
• Display of delusion.
  

Indirectly, it also provides an environment from which those who are poorly treated can either eventually react (mentally, emotionally, physically) or continue without attachment (reaction), thus propelling them on their path.

Edited November 10, 2012 by rockyysdt

[meadish_sweetball]

Are the food and objects in the alms bowls personal, or is the food pooled for sharing once back at the temple?

[rockyysdt]

Are the food and objects in the alms bowls personal, or is the food pooled for sharing once back at the temple?

I know in a certain Wat in Southern Thailand, the leading Monk who collected most of the alms would share.

If you take "sharing" out of the equation, you're still left with the crowd who paid little awareness towards the Nun.

Edited November 11, 2012 by rockyysdt

[hookedondhamma]

Are the food and objects in the alms bowls personal, or is the food pooled for sharing once back at the temple?

Meadish, it varies by temple, and sometimes by region. When in Isaan we'd share, even if it was just two of us living at the temple. Over here in Bangkok, at the particular temple I'm at, after almsround we eat seperately. Whatever is left we give away to whoever would like to have it (and there is always someone in need.) At another temple I stayed at in Bangkok, the 'group' of monks living in a particular area would eat together, others from their particular area would eat together. Still though, at the end whatever was left over was gladly taken by those who needed it.

[beautifulthailand99]

I was in a temple outside of Hat Yai for the lunch and the old Jao-a-wat and the younger monks sat on the raised dais eating their food and one was stroking a cat and feeding it with obvious affection.

An old nun sat watching this and then started to complain to the head monk about some of the chants he was making. The old monk watched with some bemusement and some of the younger monks could hardly hide their disdain for her usurping the Abbot's authority. After she had complained for about a minute she then went to sat on one side of the room and ate her food alone. It was a sad sight which has remained with me for some time - that even the cat who ate with the monk was higher than her.

Her demeanour was of a childless ageing women with the temperament of the scold's nag and female desire to 'do things properly' sublimated to centuries of patriarchal Thai Buddhist tradition.

I even videoed the cat .....

Edited November 26, 2012 by beautifulthailand99

[payak]

they have an equal but different role then the men, no less important.

[Nuna]

It's nothing about sexism. It's about the precepts they holding. Buddhist monks have to hold 227 precepts while nuns take only 8 and the novices take 10. Even thai guys have to kneel down to offer things to monks and little novices. Furthermore, Thai guys have to kneel down to offer things to nun as well.

If women don't want to do kitchen job for monk, they have to be Bhikkhuni holding 311 precepts instead of a nun. I had been nun for 2 months and I had to buy things, accepted money from locals because the respected Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni are not allowed to touch money or to cook.

Don't prejudge others by your standards please. If you don't know anything, find it. There are plenty of information from internet.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Nuna

[bankei]

I'm a little surprised there's been no reference to precepts in the previous comments. Monks follow 227 precepts in Thailand, and nuns 8 (or, occasionally, 10). It's the number of precepts that gives the status, not the gender.

I disagree with this. Bhikkhuni follow many more than 227 precepts but still subordinate to monks. This is in the Pali scriptures - if a nun ordained for 99 years she would still be junior to a 20 year old monk ordained for 1 min.

Bankei

[bankei]

It's nothing about sexism. It's about the precepts they holding. Buddhist monks have to hold 227 precepts while nuns take only 8 and the novices take 10. Even thai guys have to kneel down to offer things to monks and little novices. Furthermore, Thai guys have to kneel down to offer things to nun as well.

If women don't want to do kitchen job for monk, they have to be Bhikkhuni holding 311 precepts instead of a nun. I had been nun for 2 months and I had to buy things, accepted money from locals because the respected Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni are not allowed to touch money or to cook.

Don't prejudge others by your standards please. If you don't know anything, find it. There are plenty of information from internet.

Isn't one of the precepts for nuns, Mae Chi, to refrain from handling money?

Bankei

[Nuna]

It's nothing about sexism. It's about the precepts they holding. Buddhist monks have to hold 227 precepts while nuns take only 8 and the novices take 10. Even thai guys have to kneel down to offer things to monks and little novices. Furthermore, Thai guys have to kneel down to offer things to nun as well.

If women don't want to do kitchen job for monk, they have to be Bhikkhuni holding 311 precepts instead of a nun. I had been nun for 2 months and I had to buy things, accepted money from locals because the respected Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni are not allowed to touch money or to cook.

Don't prejudge others by your standards please. If you don't know anything, find it. There are plenty of information from internet.

Isn't one of the precepts for nuns, Mae Chi, to refrain from handling money?

Bankei

No, especially in case of alm round with Bhikkuni. In some meditation centers, nuns act as office manager, customer service for outsiders as well as kitchen jobs and shopping for food in market.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Nuna

[Nuna]

I'm a little surprised there's been no reference to precepts in the previous comments. Monks follow 227 precepts in Thailand, and nuns 8 (or, occasionally, 10). It's the number of precepts that gives the status, not the gender.

I disagree with this. Bhikkhuni follow many more than 227 precepts but still subordinate to monks. This is in the Pali scriptures - if a nun ordained for 99 years she would still be junior to a 20 year old monk ordained for 1 min.

Bankei

@AyG 10 precepts is for novices and samaneris (female novice) not for nuns

You disagree with this then what you can do?. Its been this way for 26 centuries and has been accepted since then. And those who want to be Buddha his last life as a Buddha he must be born as a man not a woman. Buddha is always a man except for Arhat that man and woman equally has chance. The reason why women cannot be buddha I think because women have less physical and mind impregnability than men. You can't imagine what a Buddha has to face before achieving enlightment

Edited February 2, 2013 by Nuna

[fabianfred]

Actually, a Boddhisatta who is training himself in the ten perfections before becoming a Buddha, is only born male. Not a sexist thing, just that they have enough of a hard struggle as it is without the extra disadvantages of being born female.

As we know females are easily overwhelmed because of their sex, in all ages and all societies, and are treated as lower and with less respect. Unfair and prejudiced we know, but it happens all the time..... those doing so earn themselves negative karma, because of their ignorance.

[rockyysdt]

Actually, a Boddhisatta who is training himself in the ten perfections before becoming a Buddha, is only born male. Not a sexist thing, just that they have enough of a hard struggle as it is without the extra disadvantages of being born female.

As we know females are easily overwhelmed because of their sex, in all ages and all societies, and are treated as lower and with less respect. Unfair and prejudiced we know, but it happens all the time..... those doing so earn themselves negative karma, because of their ignorance.

Hi Fred.

We know of Siddhartha Gautama as he was born and lived in relatively recent times, as as far as previous Buddhas, how do we distinguish between fact and mythology?

Except, perhaps during another world/time (infinity), we have not known of an age where science/technology has removed us from the forces of nature.

Exponentially over the last two centuries humans are increasing their control over the environment.

Previously, mans greater physical strength had made his gender dominant over the female.

Over the ages, this superior status has become engrained in mans culture.

Moving to the 21st century, females, liberated by science and technology no longer require a males physical strength for their gender to survive and prosper.

The only thing left are the appendages of culture relegating women to a backseat.

Such culture appears much stronger amongst the less educated and poor.

Given science/technology will continue, along with standards of education and wealth, any disadvantages of being born a woman will fade into insignificance.

Can anyone put forward an impediment to a future female Buddha given such an advanced future?

Why do past depictions of Buddhas depict pre-industrial figures, environments where mans dominance over women perpetuates?

Do Boddhisatta's proclaim their status?

If they don't, how do we know female Boddhisatta's don't exist/have existed?

Edited February 4, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Potosi]

Previously, mans greater physical strength had made his gender dominant over the female.

Over the ages, this superior status has become engrained in mans culture.

Moving to the 21st century, females, liberated by science and technology no longer require a males physical strength for their gender to survive and prosper.

The only thing left are the appendages of culture relegating women to a backseat.

Such culture appears much stronger amongst the less educated and poor.

Given science/technology will continue, along with standards of education and wealth, any disadvantages of being born a woman will fade into insignificance.

On the contrary. Male dominance emerged with the invention of writing and maths. The male brain can cope better with characters, numbers, formulas. Science and technology continue to be dominated by males. They're somewhat different from politics or businesses, the old-boy networks weaker. One needs talent. There are some more differences women can't shed, like being more superstitious and religious than men. They also try to avoid risks, which is good if you think prison populations, but bad when you consider who gets the limelight for a risky endeavor that turns out to be a success.

Here is an article that says 95% of the recent Australian tech startups were established by male entrepreneurs. Politically correct it accuses of sexist prejudices. What are they gonna do? Gender quota business ideas?

http://www.zdnet.com...sis-7000007999/

[rockyysdt]

On the contrary. Male dominance emerged with the invention of writing and maths. The male brain can cope better with characters, numbers, formulas. Science and technology continue to be dominated by males. They're somewhat different from politics or businesses, the old-boy networks weaker. One needs talent. There are some more differences women can't shed, like being more superstitious and religious than men. They also try to avoid risks, which is good if you think prison populations, but bad when you consider who gets the limelight for a risky endeavor that turns out to be a success.

Here is an article that says 95% of the recent Australian tech startups were established by male entrepreneurs. Politically correct it accuses of sexist prejudices. What are they gonna do? Gender quota business ideas?

http://www.zdnet.com...sis-7000007999/

You need to dig a little deeper when analyzing such data P.

This data may reflect a number of things (appendages of culture relegating women to a backseat).

To a large extent, we are a product of our environment/conditioning.

Firstly "start up" companies require the raising of capital.

In a world still dominated with the view that women are inferior, you'll find males will have greater access to credit/capital, an important ingredient of "start up" companies.

Females may or may not have a greater aptitude to writing/maths, but have many attributes to bring to the table.

One could equally argue that males may also be lacking in some respects.

An important thing to consider, particularly on a Buddhist forum, is that it appears many are firmly of the belief (attachment) that females are inferior.

There are even some examples of women themselves, who have been raised to accept this as fact and as their lot, without question.

Humans are creatures of habit and belief.

Beliefs are so powerful, rather than carrying out investigations with open minds, they cause believers to exclude everything but that which supports their views.

Belief and Fact are seldom the same.

In fact, one definition of "awakening", at some level, is to be free of belief (attachment).

Edited February 5, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Equality is a fraud....Humans are not equal physically,intellectually, emotionally etc.

More so in Buddhism with its belief in reincarnation.

Peope who find themselves in a good station in life, have acquired good karma to achieve it.

The opposite for people in a bad 'condition'

How can the two be 'equal'?

They do have equal chances though, in the very long term...Nirvana is open to all

In light of the recent discussion, are you suggesting that being born a female is due to bad karma?

[IMA_FARANG]

Not wishing to be crotical or anything .... but since this IS a predominantly Thredvada forum, please let me just interject tthat their ARE Buddhist traditions where Males and Females are regarded as equal in "spiritual" matters and certainly as able to reach Nibanna (by whatever term it is called there).

In fact I beleve there is a story that the many teachers have said that among Female students they find it much easier to make novices umdertand and accept the concept of Samsara as a reality.... especially in societies where women are traditionally a subservient class.

For the simple reason that they see such treatment in their "outside" lives as the norm.

[Sheryl]

There are, in fact, Bhikkunis in Thailand

http://www.thaibhikkhunis.org/eng/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=5&Itemid=21

It is well known that there are sexual biases in institutionalized Buddhism (as opposed to the original Buddhist teachings) in Thailand and this is the subject of considerable discussion within the Thai Buddhist establishment. It is also slowly changing. A number of monks have spoken out in favor of equality for women, others have opposed any change to the status quo. It is contentious issue.

But should not confuse these temporal issues within an organized secular religion with the actual teachings of the Buddha nor with Buddhist practice. The Buddha was quite clear in saying that women had the same capacity for enlightenment as men, and there were as other posters have noted, many female arahants during the Buddha's time.

[rockyysdt]

There are, in fact, Bhikkunis in Thailand

http://www.thaibhikk...&id=5&Itemid=21

It is well known that there are sexual biases in institutionalized Buddhism (as opposed to the original Buddhist teachings) in Thailand and this is the subject of considerable discussion within the Thai Buddhist establishment. It is also slowly changing. A number of monks have spoken out in favor of equality for women, others have opposed any change to the status quo. It is contentious issue.

But should not confuse these temporal issues within an organized secular religion with the actual teachings of the Buddha nor with Buddhist practice. The Buddha was quite clear in saying that women had the same capacity for enlightenment as men, and there were as other posters have noted, many female arahants during the Buddha's time.

Hi Sheryl.

Why do some followers state, that to be born a woman is due to the fruits of past negative kharma and that they must wait for a favorable re birth as a man before they can attain Enlightenment?

[Sheryl]

Because they don't understand the teachings well.

Or perhaps they are just looking for an excuse.

I've heard a whole variety of excuses around things one has to wait for before can can really practice (though this particular one is new to me).

It may also relate to a common misunderstanding that it is necessary to be a monk to reach enlightenment and that serious practice isn't something lay people can undertake (they can).

To me, they all seem like self-delusion, excuses people make because practice is hard and they aren't willing/ready to give up their various attachments.

Anguttara Nikaya 8.51:

Ananda then said to the Blessed One, "Venerable sir, if a woman were to go forth from the home life into homelessness in the doctrine and discipline made known by the Tathagata, would she be able to realize the fruit of stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, or arahantship?"

"Yes, Ananda, she would..."

And, according to the Pali Canon, hundreds did during his time.

From the Mahavacchagotta Sutta (Majjhihima Miakaya 73) (the answers being from Buddha, the questiosn posed by Vacchagotta)

“Apart from Master Gotama and the bhikkhus, is there any one bhikkhuni, Master Gotama’s disciple, who by realising for herself with direct knowledge here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints?”

“There are not only one hundred... or five hundred, but far more bhikkhunis, my disciples, who by realising for themselves with direct knowledge here and now enter upon and abide the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.”

(same question goes on to be asked about lay men and lay women with the same reply. Referring of course to lay people whio strictly practice the dhamma.).

[sabaijai]

Some previous threads on bhikkhuni in Thailand.