Fake Document Got Abhisit His Military Job, Defence Ministry Says

[Credo]

Only if a 'mistake' was really made. First it probably wasn't lost, and second, it seems that mistake would be caught by the person for whom it was issued or the person issuing it.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Credo

[venturalaw]

Up until now the discovery of his having submitted a forged document was the only thing lacking in his background to qualify him for success in the Thai political arena.

[animatic]

Let us remember the Defense Ministry is run by a Pro Thaksin / PTP appointee now.

Of course underlings have been told to crawl into every nook and cranny to find ANYTHING as a weapon against political enemies. Wow! Wrong date, it must be a counterfeit conspiracy!!! As opposed to inept record keeping or any of the plausible reasons that dates are wrong.

Witchhunt 101

Anything, any discrepancy, no matter how trivial,

should be blown up as much as possible, with maximum innuendo.

[animatic]

I have a strong dislike for people who enter politics who are not willing to show some moral backbone.

I don't like leaders who evade national service. They may be called upon to send young men and women in harms way.

I don't like leaders who evade taxes. They may be responsible for laws that tax others.

Omg, so who among the current crop DO you like? ;-)

The only logical conclusion is: None.

[Ferangled]

What does this have to do with anything? This is a red herring that occured almost 30 years ago, and that's assuming that it is indeed a fake document and not just a mistake on the copy.

But this whole thing is nothing but a smoke screen to deflect attention away from all the wrong doings going on with the PTP, Thaksin and the UDD.

Concentrate on the real issues.

The real issue is:

Did Mark's father, like many Rich Chinese / Vietnamese father bought a fake document on his behalf 30 years ago.

Please note that it was and still is, a common practice, and nothing to be shame about.

Have you ever wonder why most poor Thais keep picking up the RED ball while the rich Chinese keep picking up the BLACK ball; during the lottery?

You don't need a statistician to work out the improbability. No need to read the Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy too.

A crime is a crime, whoever commits it. What is this bs about its ok because everyone's doing it? I fail to comprehend the bizarre Chinese/Vietnamese insinuations, and the lottery? <deleted> is all that about? In all a worriesome, almost delusional, post. Can anyone make sense of it, please?

It's actually pretty accurate to anyone with any knowledge of Thai conscription. Get out a bit more and talk to some Thais, you'll find there is a trend whereby the rich kids get out of doing military service while the poor kids have to serve. The system is designed as lottery, a game of chance, much like the national betting version, which is easily rigged in favour of those who are willing (corrupt) and able (rich) to fix the outcome.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/thailand/101007/military-conscription-transgender

This article demonstrates the effects that these "lotteries" have on certain Thai citizens, and while focusing on katoeys, shows the horrors facing Thai families who can't afford to play the system, knowing that there's a chance their beloved son could be serving in the Deep South and end up being beheaded by insurgents. I understand that katoeys are now exempt...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/460693-thai-military-draft-a-lottery-many-hope-to-lose/

Here's a Thaivisa thread on the subject... some interesting quotes...

"Anybody caught trying to escape conscription faces three years in prison, followed by a stint in the army, Norapon said."

The worst case scenario is a posting in Thailand's deep south, where an insurgency waged by suspected Islamic militants has left more than 4,500 people dead over the past seven years. Military personnel are a particular target.

"I don't want to be a soldier. I'm afraid of being sent to the south," said another potential recruit, Chanasorn Sodpakwan.

Thai troops were also sent out onto the streets of Bangkok a year ago to crack down on mass opposition protests. More than 90 people died, mostly civilians, in a series of clashes between soldiers and demonstrators.

The hypocrisy of a man that has led the country, has sent young boys to their death in military service but cheated the system when it came to his own service, is obvious and is a serious breach of trust. If you want to stamp out the corruption in this country, start at the top, show the people that the elites have to abide by the same rules as the poor.

[geriatrickid]

Up until now the discovery of his having submitted a forged document was the only thing lacking in his background to qualify him for success in the Thai political arena.

Unfortunately, he hasn't had much success. The Demcorat party under his leadership never won a mandate in an election. perhaps if the man had done his military service or had worked in the private sector and gained some experience, he might have had some success.

[Babcock]

What does this have to do with anything? This is a red herring that occured almost 30 years ago, and that's assuming that it is indeed a fake document and not just a mistake on the copy.

But this whole thing is nothing but a smoke screen to deflect attention away from all the wrong doings going on with the PTP, Thaksin and the UDD.

Concentrate on the real issues.

The real issue is:

Did Mark's father, like many Rich Chinese / Vietnamese father bought a fake document on his behalf 30 years ago.

Please note that it was and still is, a common practice, and nothing to be shame about.

Have you ever wonder why most poor Thais keep picking up the RED ball while the rich Chinese keep picking up the BLACK ball; during the lottery?

You don't need a statistician to work out the improbability. No need to read the Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy too.

There are things about that family I really don't like.

In England someone like Abhisit entering politics would be ridiculed as a rich public schoolboy twit.

Don't try and compare him to Cameron. He's not in the same league.

Him lecturing the UN on "sufficiency economy" for the poor but not for him, not for the feudal barons etc etc.

Just look at his party and its members throwing tantrums with the speaker, childishly stealing his chair and he, Abhisit pressing false charges with the Constitution court.

Clinton, a democrat, dodged the draft for the Vietnam war.

It was fair game for the republicans to go after him for that .

Bush got an easy job away from the fighting with civil defense.

The democrats went after him.

Fair do's.

[Reasonableman]

It's actually pretty accurate to anyone with any knowledge of Thai conscription. Get out a bit more and talk to some Thais...

I do get out every day and work with and associate every day with Thais. Strangely, their conversations with me do seldom turn to the system of conscription. But in future i will endeavor to find out more. One of my knowledge gaps.

If you want to stamp out the corruption in this country, start at the top, show the people that the elites have to abide by the same rules as the poor.

Indeed. That is why we have laws. And all should be equal before them. And I know you would support that, for all, right? Not just limit it to the select few you oppose politically. ;-)

[SymS]

So what? Fake documents are entirely part of Thai "culture" ?

Edited July 21, 2012 by SymS

[rixalex]

I don't recall saying I liked anybody. I just know that Mr. Squeaky Clean, isn't quite as clean as everyone likes to think.

He's certainly not squeaky clean (who really is?), but the fact that after all the money that has no doubt been spent trying to dig up some dirt on him, this is the sort of thing they come up with, suggests to me he is a darn sight cleaner than the majority of Thai politician's out there, including those politicians who are no doubt behind the funding of all this investigation.

That said, i do agree with you that dodging military service is a sad reflection on a person's character and if Abhisit is found guilty, he should apologise and accept whatever legal proceedings are taken against him.

[hellodolly]

ahhh who cares?

it doesn't matter to people on here what golden boy abhisit has ever done.

it makes no difference, he's still the shining example of honesty and integrity and all that's right with thai politics... amirite guys, who's with me?

high five.

Looks like Thaksin and his gang are getting desperate.

[atyclb]

# How would one discern a "fake document" from an "incompetently produced document" ?

# Removed from office for a "cooking show" is absurd

# AV Oxford studies are admirable and at least he doesn't have a "scam degree"

Thai Soap Operas aka Lakaun TV, saturated ineptitude, cheating and corruption

Really is the land where "fact is fiction and TV = reality"

[Dibbler]

His application docs may not have been correct but one thing that can't be disputed is his degree from Oxford. How many Thai politicians can claim a higher level Thai degree that wasnt bought or borrowed let alone any form of international standard education in their resumes?

[hellodolly]

What does this have to do with anything? This is a red herring that occured almost 30 years ago, and that's assuming that it is indeed a fake document and not just a mistake on the copy.

But this whole thing is nothing but a smoke screen to deflect attention away from all the wrong doings going on with the PTP, Thaksin and the UDD.

Concentrate on the real issues.

The real issue is:

Did Mark's father, like many Rich Chinese / Vietnamese father bought a fake document on his behalf 30 years ago.

Please note that it was and still is, a common practice, and nothing to be shame about.

Have you ever wonder why most poor Thais keep picking up the RED ball while the rich Chinese keep picking up the BLACK ball; during the lottery?

You don't need a statistician to work out the improbability. No need to read the Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy too.

A crime is a crime, whoever commits it. What is this bs about its ok because everyone's doing it? I fail to comprehend the bizarre Chinese/Vietnamese insinuations, and the lottery? <deleted> is all that about? In all a worriesome, almost delusional, post. Can anyone make sense of it, please?

It's actually pretty accurate to anyone with any knowledge of Thai conscription. Get out a bit more and talk to some Thais, you'll find there is a trend whereby the rich kids get out of doing military service while the poor kids have to serve. The system is designed as lottery, a game of chance, much like the national betting version, which is easily rigged in favour of those who are willing (corrupt) and able (rich) to fix the outcome.

http://www.globalpos...ion-transgender

This article demonstrates the effects that these "lotteries" have on certain Thai citizens, and while focusing on katoeys, shows the horrors facing Thai families who can't afford to play the system, knowing that there's a chance their beloved son could be serving in the Deep South and end up being beheaded by insurgents. I understand that katoeys are now exempt...

http://www.thaivisa....y-hope-to-lose/

Here's a Thaivisa thread on the subject... some interesting quotes...

"Anybody caught trying to escape conscription faces three years in prison, followed by a stint in the army, Norapon said."

The worst case scenario is a posting in Thailand's deep south, where an insurgency waged by suspected Islamic militants has left more than 4,500 people dead over the past seven years. Military personnel are a particular target.

"I don't want to be a soldier. I'm afraid of being sent to the south," said another potential recruit, Chanasorn Sodpakwan.

Thai troops were also sent out onto the streets of Bangkok a year ago to crack down on mass opposition protests. More than 90 people died, mostly civilians, in a series of clashes between soldiers and demonstrators.

The hypocrisy of a man that has led the country, has sent young boys to their death in military service but cheated the system when it came to his own service, is obvious and is a serious breach of trust. If you want to stamp out the corruption in this country, start at the top, show the people that the elites have to abide by the same rules as the poor.

Well you blather on and forget that Thaksin is at the top. You base all your assumptions on a 30 year old document that could have easily been inserted by the PT as they have control over it.

It is clearly a sign of desperation The Dem's have a minority but the PT is so inept that they can see they no longer have the backing of the people so they try to draw attention away from them selves and focus it on the opposition based on a easily forged piece of paper that they have 100% control of.

[ozziebloke]

ThaiOats

I brought up the Red Shirts because they were the ones who started this smear campaign, there's another thread which talks about the same subject which did mention the Red Shirts. So when you say "it makes no difference, he's still the shining example of honesty and integrity and all that's right with thai politics." you're not holding up to such standards? Avoiding a draft is not a political issue by the way unless you make it to be, I've done it under the same criteria as Abhisit when I studied in the United States.

So are you saying cheating as you admit you have done as Abhisit is accused of is not corrupt ?

[hellodolly]

I don't recall saying I liked anybody. I just know that Mr. Squeaky Clean, isn't quite as clean as everyone likes to think.

He's certainly not squeaky clean (who really is?), but the fact that after all the money that has no doubt been spent trying to dig up some dirt on him, this is the sort of thing they come up with, suggests to me he is a darn sight cleaner than the majority of Thai politician's out there, including those politicians who are no doubt behind the funding of all this investigation.

That said, i do agree with you that dodging military service is a sad reflection on a person's character and if Abhisit is found guilty, he should apologise and accept whatever legal proceedings are taken against him.

Well for the most part I agree with you. But as far as costing money I disagree. Just a order to change the records. The PT elites are the ones in control just tell a clerk to pull his files and take one paper out and insert another.

Probably if they played there cards rite could have been a money maker. Put the job out to bid. Lot's of people desperate to get rid of Abhist. The SOB wants democracy through peaceful means.

[firestar]

But if you think the governments energies are better spent on smearing other politicans over a minor issue like a conscription form, then knock yourself out.

Sure. but when the same absurd tactics were used by the Democrats to try to disqualify PPP members, like a MP's wife having received years back a couple shares in PTT as a Christmas bonus it was met here with cheers of "it's the law' "it's the law"... can you say double standards?

[Ferangled]

It's actually pretty accurate to anyone with any knowledge of Thai conscription. Get out a bit more and talk to some Thais...

I do get out every day and work with and associate every day with Thais. Strangely, their conversations with me do seldom turn to the system of conscription. But in future i will endeavor to find out more. One of my knowledge gaps.

If you want to stamp out the corruption in this country, start at the top, show the people that the elites have to abide by the same rules as the poor.

Indeed. That is why we have laws. And all should be equal before them. And I know you would support that, for all, right? Not just limit it to the select few you oppose politically. ;-)

I don't oppose anyone politically in Thailand, I'm English and have no right to enter into Thai politics.

What I do is commentate on what I see. When I see rank hypocrisy from a former PM, who it appears deliberately dodged the military draft and then went on to send 100s of Thai soldiers to their deaths in the South and on the streets of Bangkok, I call it how I see it.

Please try not to alter my posts when quoting them, just hit the quote button then write what you want to in reply... it's an indication of the types of Thai you associate with if the issue of conscription has never come into conversation in all the years you've been in Thailand.

I personally know many Thai families that have been directly effected by this, and have a good friend that recently was forced into military service, having been abroad at the age he should have been drafted. He had the option of buying his way out and could afford to but decided to walk the higher ground and get on with it. He was due to marry two weeks later and his wedding still hasn't taken place. Personally that is the sort of moral fibre I would like to see in the country's leader.

[Throatwobbler]

yes, the state of corrupt thai politics - who so many revere him to be above it all.

yes i should hope this is a pretty big blow to his credibility, considering all he champions!

especially to non-partisan onlookers points of view.

but i'll guess all we can do now is wait for the plethora of 'legitimate' excuses to roll in.

Because a PT minister said it then it must be true. You're just as blind, if not more so than the Abhisit lovers you decry.

Ammarite.

High 5

Pathetic

[rubl]

The ministry said that Abhisit's document stated he was exempted from military service and was enlisted as a reserve officer on April 8, 1988, but that in the records at the Conscription Registrar's Office, the date of enlistment was stated as July 4, 1986.

The ministry said Abhisit should not have been eligible for exemption from military service because he was not studying at the time.

Abhisit's Sor Dor 9 document was a replacement for the original that had been reported as lost. He became a lecturer at the military academy after graduating from Oxford University.

With discrepancies in the document, it should not have been used in applying for the job at the military academy, the Defence Ministry concluded. It said in its letter that the Judge Advocate General's Department has been instructed to gather more evidence regarding the matter.

Fake document, different dates mentioned, replacement doc, discrepancies and from yesterday's topic "not divulge for fear of politisizing and here are the details, allegedly".

The only reasonable part is "instructed to gather more evidence regarding the matter".

And no I'm not going to mention k. Thaksin, I was thiking more of two sons of one of our Dept. PM's, but then those are swell boys not to be compared with an intellectual who probably doesn't even know the inside of disco even if he stepped on some toes

[Ferangled]

Well you blather on and forget that Thaksin is at the top. You base all your assumptions on a 30 year old document that could have easily been inserted by the PT as they have control over it.

It is clearly a sign of desperation The Dem's have a minority but the PT is so inept that they can see they no longer have the backing of the people so they try to draw attention away from them selves and focus it on the opposition based on a easily forged piece of paper that they have 100% control of.

Yes, this thread is so clearly about Thaskin isn't it?! That's not an example of the same diversionary and mudslinging tactics used by both Reds and Yellows??!!

You seem to forget that Thaksin has already been convicted and is a fugitive on the run.... well at least on the run from Thailand, it seems most countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms...

[bigbamboo]

This is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I do not believe there is a SINGLE Thai politician who could withstand a full investigative back ground check into either their qualification to hold the job, or why how they accumulated millions / billions of baht on a modest civil servant salary. So to have any Thai politician stand up and act self righteous by pointing an accusatory finger at some one else is truly moving into the theater of the absurd . I will assume there is someone behind this , as I am sure people at the Defence Ministry would just as soon drink coffee and decided what new tanks to buy, instead of trying to undermine a major political figure. Would be curious to know who that person is.....

Regarding this case who knows what really happened. This is the land of fake documents and political back stabbing, so I would not pin too much credibility into this affair. And as long as backgrounds are being checked, how about looking into PM Yingluck's " English degree" ?? I have met bar girls that never set foot in America or a university that speak better English than Yingluck.....

Exactly.

Just look at who gets into Thai politics, how they get in and why.

[Tanuki]

ahhh who cares?

it doesn't matter to people on here what golden boy abhisit has ever done.

it makes no difference, he's still the shining example of honesty and integrity and all that's right with thai politics... amirite guys, who's with me?

high five.

Wow bfd a bad Sor Dor form..did he file it with the Or Bor Jor then have a beer at Kor Tor Mor? What a bore.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Tanuki

[rubl]

Well you blather on and forget that Thaksin is at the top. You base all your assumptions on a 30 year old document that could have easily been inserted by the PT as they have control over it.

It is clearly a sign of desperation The Dem's have a minority but the PT is so inept that they can see they no longer have the backing of the people so they try to draw attention away from them selves and focus it on the opposition based on a easily forged piece of paper that they have 100% control of.

Yes, this thread is so clearly about Thaskin isn't it?! That's not an example of the same diversionary and mudslinging tactics used by both Reds and Yellows??!!

You seem to forget that Thaksin has already been convicted and is a fugitive on the run.... well at least on the run from Thailand, it seems most countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms...

"countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms"

Now let me see. Welcomed: Macedonia, Cambodia, Zimbabwe. Admitted: Japan (after asked by MoFA), Italy (after being detained for confirmation). Laos, UK, Indonesia, etc., etc.

[Greer]

yes, the state of corrupt thai politics - who so many revere him to be above it all.

yes i should hope this is a pretty big blow to his credibility, considering all he champions!

especially to non-partisan onlookers points of view.

but i'll guess all we can do now is wait for the plethora of 'legitimate' excuses to roll in.

At this time the court has made no determination as to whether to follow this up. There is no determination as to the claims made by the department, and I can only imagine them to be politically driven, but I may of course be wrong, and the department is actually going through all persons records and will take everyone showing any discrepancy to court..fair enough...BUT...

Your tone in the last sentence is sarcastic to say the least, and indicates that even without anything more concrete than a publication in an on-line media report, you have him convicted already - apparently without seeing or hearing any of the evidence for or against the claims...

Reasonable.....? Not really.

[Ferangled]

Well you blather on and forget that Thaksin is at the top. You base all your assumptions on a 30 year old document that could have easily been inserted by the PT as they have control over it.

It is clearly a sign of desperation The Dem's have a minority but the PT is so inept that they can see they no longer have the backing of the people so they try to draw attention away from them selves and focus it on the opposition based on a easily forged piece of paper that they have 100% control of.

Yes, this thread is so clearly about Thaskin isn't it?! That's not an example of the same diversionary and mudslinging tactics used by both Reds and Yellows??!!

You seem to forget that Thaksin has already been convicted and is a fugitive on the run.... well at least on the run from Thailand, it seems most countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms...

"countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms"

Now let me see. Welcomed: Macedonia, Cambodia, Zimbabwe. Admitted: Japan (after asked by MoFA), Italy (after being detained for confirmation). Laos, UK, Indonesia, etc., etc.

Yes exactly, he's been all travelling all across Europe, Africa, Asia and just been granted a US visa.... how exactly are you making a distinction between admittance and welcomed?! Quite the globe trotter for an international fugitive..

What countries have refused him entry?

[tragickingdom]

ahhh who cares?

it doesn't matter to people on here what golden boy abhisit has ever done.

it makes no difference, he's still the shining example of honesty and integrity and all that's right with thai politics... amirite guys, who's with me?

high five.

I bet that we soon see a polling agency telling us that 67% of the Thai people agreeing with the "Golden Boy". The fact that they poll in 12 to 22 provinces only and in and around the elitist strongholds only and extrapolate the outcome to 76 provinces well be happily overlooked. The people on this forum will claim that rural people and city folks in the provinces are dumb and corrupted, showing their infinite ignorance and lack of knowledge.

[GiHadOrange]

I have a strong dislike for people who enter politics who are not willing to show some moral backbone.

I don't like leaders who evade national service. They may be called upon to send young men and women in harms way.

I don't like leaders who evade taxes. They may be responsible for laws that tax others.

What about leaders that are responsible for laws that say for this and that you don't have to pay any taxes anymore?

[Greer]

so no opinion, not a shred of a negative response towards this... just divert, divert, divert.

is there a point in anyone on this forum trying to discuss anything political with you?

have you ever acknowledged any meaningful wrongdoing on your side?

i'm surprised people still interact in debates with you on here tbh, but that's just imho....

It is sort of ironic you spamming the word "divert", given that this 'Smear Abhisit' campaign is a diversionary tactic to avert the public's eyes away from the crimes of PTP themselves.

PTP crimes which are not only much more serious than draft-dodging, but are current 2012 crimes that have occured this year and are still occuring. Them throwing this 'diversion' 1986 non-story to their lapdogs and their baying hounds, is I'm sure enough diversion for simple minded loyal canines but it doesn't interest most educated human beings at all.

Good dog. Have a biscuit.

Haha...well said...! Lol...

[Greer]

so no opinion, not a shred of a negative response towards this... just divert, divert, divert.

is there a point in anyone on this forum trying to discuss anything political with you?

have you ever acknowledged any meaningful wrongdoing on your side?

i'm surprised people still interact in debates with you on here tbh, but that's just imho....

It is sort of ironic you spamming the word "divert", given that this 'Smear Abhisit' campaign is a diversionary tactic to avert the public's eyes away from the crimes of PTP themselves.

PTP crimes which are not only much more serious than draft-dodging, but are current 2012 crimes that have occured this year and are still occuring. Them throwing this 'diversion' 1986 non-story to their lapdogs and their baying hounds, is I'm sure enough diversion for simple minded loyal canines but it doesn't interest most educated human beings at all.

Good dog. Have a biscuit.

How is raising an important issue a 'smear campaign'?

if it is can we also agree the the sexual misconduct allegations against the elected pm also a smear campaign? i am just wondering what constitutes a smear campaign in your head, is it anything against your beloved abhisit is a smear campaign?

Surely we should be looking at current issues, not 20 year old minor infractions - also by the way, nowhere does it state that there was any forgery - the document they came up with showed a difference between the claim made and their records- nothing to do with forging anything at all....but as I said - its over 20 years ago - lets go back through ALL pollies - on both sides - and see what we can dig up, then take 'em all to court... how about a bit of common sense and perspective...

I object to the way that BOTH sides in this argument seem to imply that its only Thailand that has this situation... I defy any country to go back through 20 years of their politicians pasts, and see what muck they end up with stuck in the prongs of their rake!