The Agonising Blows That Expose The Evil Secrets Of Thailands Elephant Tourism Con:

[hellodolly]

Does any harm come to the elephants from performing? Genuine question.

No, and in fact, many of the elephants enjoy it. They are animals and all animals, human or otherwise, can enjoy playing. Especially the young ones. Old timers would rather sit back and watch. But it really depends on how the animals 'learn' to perform. Just as there are dog trainers who use praise and food rewards, there are other trainers who use electric shock. Did you have a dog as a pet? Didn't your dog enjoy playing? The animals at the Mae Rim camp first play in the river as the mahouts wash them. There is no question in anyone's mind that the animals are enjoying this. Then they play in the ring for about an hour or so. You can see the younger ones almost dancing around with glee when it's their turn to do something. Then it's a one hour slow ride around the hillside, then it's back home by 1pm to relax until the next day. I would have preferred this lifestyle to working in an office lit by fluorescent lights 9-5...

Then you know that Khun Et, the owner of the Mae Sa camp, does not tolerate the abuse of the animals, provides excellent veterinary care, and has his own self-sustaining breeding program.

Absolutely! Clean, well cared for, and no abuse. But I feel that this care and concern comes more from the financial end rather than a real love of animals. If there is elephant dung all over, the tourists won't come. If the elephants are abused, the tourists won't come. And God forbid a professional photographer shows up to take pictures of the babies... No money for the Camp owners that way!

Good plan no body go to see them turn them all loose to live haply ever after in the jungle. Some thing wrong with that answer just can't put my finger on it.

The problem is that it is 2012 and not 1800. Civilization has crept in and with it, housing developments, highways, towns, large farms... All of these together have removed elephant habitat. There is no longer room for herds of elephants roaming the county. People got in the way. People removed elephant food supplies. People blocked elephant migration paths. And people don't want elephants eating their crops. Imagine a herd of elephants passing through a banana plantation! Signs saying 'Please don't eat the Bananas' won't help...

Today, the only viable way to protect the elephant is to create Protected Reserves where a specified number of elephants can be sustained on a certain sized piece of land. Match the food supply to the number of animals. It takes a lot of ground to feed just one elephant. We humans have created the problem with out expansion. In the past we just killed off the wildlife that go in our way. Today it's our responsibility to care for those that remain.

You are rite on.

Actually I was being sarcastic. I also included the drugged up Tiger's.

[hellodolly]

When they're all gone, please remember I said this on Monday 23rd July 2012, "There's only one way to preserve wildlife....leave it ALONE!!!!!!"

While I appreciate your sentiment, it is no longer an option. Humans have made too large an incursion into the animal habitat. Without proper guidance today, to many species would self destruct. This is why hunting laws have evolved... not to make it better for the hunters, but to insure that the maximum numbers of animals of a particular species are permitted to exist based on available food supply for a given area. Man's incursion into the animal's habitat has thrown off the natural selection process. Unless you remove all the towns and cities and let them grow back into a natural habitat, there is simply no way the animals can fend for themselves as they did before the arrival of civilization. In fact, the very first law ever passed after the American Revolution was to set a specified deer season in the Vermont/New Hampshire area. Deer were almost extinct by the later years of the 17'00's... Today, because of sound herd management, there are more deer in Vermont than there were in the mid 1800's!

Example- If hunting were banned, during the first few years of the bann the herd population WOULD increase. But it would eventually reach a level where there were too many deer for the available food supply. Then only the healthiest animals would get the food (survival of the fittest, right?) Many of the weaker deer would become sick. That sickness would spread to the healthier animals and there would be massive die-off. The result would be a serious DECREASE in the herd size. As civilization continued to build more housing developments and roads, the food supply would continue to shrink... I think you get the picture.

It's the same with the Elephant population. There is simply no room today for wild herds in Thailand. There are way too many towns and cities in Malaysia for wild tigers to roam free. Villagers will shoot them, not for meat or trophy, but for safety. Mankind got in the way, and it's up to mankind to take steps to protect the animals, not leave them alone.

Well said and a good argument. But, unfortunately you kinda reinforced what I believe....that it's inevitable.....they're all gone....it's just a matter of time. I for one am an animal lover and I will always be on the side of all the wild animals in the world. But, turning the tide???? Parks and sanctuaries that guarantee security for it's animals as you say is probably their only hope. But, again unfortunately, there are often cases where poaching has gone on with devistating results within designated parks. This situation vexes me greatly...and I'd like to shoot all poachers and customers on the spot. Ultimately, however, I have no hope in enough strong, unwavering, staunch support from world governments and it's peoples to save wild animals. It's sad...very sad indeed. In this regard, we humans (myself and a few others excluded to a large extent) are <deleted>!

Actually all the discussions, facts and suppositions while they hold a lot of truth. None of them look at the real answer to a lot of the problems we face today. Kind of like ignoring the elephant sitting in the middle of the room.

It is true that wild life has been forced out of their habitats by man. And there in is the problem Over Population. I think China is the only one seriously looking at it. The rest of the world ignores it. They do not look on it as a problem. They will say there is no room for the elephants because man needs it. Never say we are letting are population get out of hand.

One other problem that China could do to help stop the slaughter of animals is enact and enforce serious penalties on people using animal parts because it makes them horny or they think it will cure some stupid thing. Also Life sentences for the poachers. No exceptions. That goes for world wide.

Not going to happen the elephant has set up house keping in are living rooms.

[jerrysteve]

How ironic that the elephant which legend has it that saved the Great Buddha, should be crucified on a daily

basis by people who claim to be Buddhists.

What rubbish!

[girldirector]

On my way next month to make a documentary called "Through Elephant Eyes".

The ultimate intention is to give back the free will of Asian elephants. This world first project will defy everything you think you know about animal communication. A new era in animal communication has begun.

I'm curious, science has proven elephants to have more compassion than humans, and they match apes, and dolphins in their intelligence. What is it going to take?

Please show your support by taking a moment to check it out on the Indiegogo website. Share it with your friends. All the tools are there.

You can share your own elephant story, get perks, make a contribution, or simply follow updates.

If enough of us get behind it, we can make 'Through Elephant Eyes' happen and help inspire Thailand's communities new ways to communicate.

Thank you!

WE should expand on this to be THROUGH WILDLIFE'S EYES" througout SE Asia. It would really be interesting from the plate to the mouth and from the rifle to the dealer. I getting my camera fixed now,

you need any help, I will be there in thailand in a few months!

Through Elephant Eyes - is the first documentary of it's kind. I want to talk with people and find out information from their point of view to gain an understanding. I want to hear people's own elephant stories.

Education, Inspiration, and Creativity help people see what they may not have seen before. I don't like seeing anything in pain or distress, for this video its about inspiring others, connecting with elephants, watching them, listening, learning,

asking people to try something else.

[cowslip]

From the Daily Mail article

"

Until these steps are taken, it is not possible to say which camps tourists should or should not visit.

But one thing I want to make clear to anyone planning on travelling to Thailand is that we’re not calling for a boycott of the camps, which would be disastrous for elephants because the camps rely on tourist income to feed and care for them.

Tourists should instead report any concerns they may have to their hotel or tour operator, and otherwise support our efforts for change if they want to make a difference. "

It costs a lot of money to feed an elephant. The Thais don't have that kind of money. And with the expansion of towns and villages, there simply isn't room enough in most areas to 'free range' a single elephant, to say nothing of a herd. There has to be a way for the Thais to get money to feed these animals.

There are several elephant rescue centers now, without dancing elephants or elephants playing football. Tourists can visit these places, interact with the elephants, help care for the elephants, etc., without the circus of the performing camps. These rescue centers need money. They need Tourist money. When more people support the rescue centers than the performing camps, then more animals will be in a safer environment. There may still be an abusive mahout now and then, but the management of the rescue centers won't tolerate it for very long.

Unfortunately, most tourists want to be entertained. They don't want to shovel elephant dung while on vacation. They would prefer to sit back and watch the elephants perform. Judging by the masses of people who flock to the Mae Rim elephant camp every day of the week, filling the stands to capacity and then some, and the 2-3 families who visit a rescue center, each week there isn't much hope until the government steps in.

Unfortunately the Thai problem is getting worse.

The original problem was a surfeit of elephants left over after logging was made illegal.

To make money these animals were either put in "parks" or zoos or shipped around the country and paraded in front of night revellers who paid to feed them......all this is highly unsuitable for elephants.

Less scrupulous parks found that "training" elephants to do tricks - especially anthropomorphic ones - was a money spinner too.

A new problem then arose.....the Thai population of elephants was ageing and a shortage might develop - the solution then? to breed more elephants - baby elephants are particularly popular, BUT NO_ONE SEEMS TO ASK WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM - the original idea was to retire and look after "domesticated" elephants, now there's a whole new trade in getting new animals especially babies....

They are smuggled from Myanmar etc., and wild elephants are "broken in" - this is probably one of the most horrific things you've ever witnessed. - google it!

so tolerating "performing" elephants or any other kind of animal is not the key to conservation or animal welfare - it leads to cruelty to the animals involved and a trade in miry with the search for fresh stock.

[SIamYank]

The real destruction of these animals has to do with loss of habitat. The same as any wild animal, especially those who need a large grazing area, like elephants. Don't blame the mahouts, the logging industry, the tourist industry... to be perfectly honest if these industries didn't use elephants in SE Asia there would be very few elephants left. Much of the problem here in Thailand is industrialization. Industries that once used elephants for work 25 years ago no longer do because it is cheaper and easier to use machines. That has essentially put elephants out of work. Elephants live a long time!

Many of these posters remind me of suburban North Americans who deplore the hunting of deer or bears as evil, yet do not see the correlation of their own suburban homes lying in the middle of deer and bear habitat. And the Europeans on this forum have to recognize that their communities have killed off most of their wild animals a very long ago.

I am not supporting the cruelty of animals or the murder of wild elephants to abduct the young. It is generally cruel people who feel the need to abuse animals. Unfortunately, it happens in most of the world (cock fighting, drugging race horses, exotic pet birds, dolphin shows, dancing bears etc.) I know it has all been going on for a very long time. But having this argument without the consideration of the destruction of habitat is missing the biggest point.

[SIamYank]

I live in very rural Thailand and this very night I was approached at our local weekly market to pay to feed a baby elephant some sugar cane. My personal policy is always to not do it. Why? because it supports similar behavior. But this is a very tough stance knowing that you might be contributing to the death of that particular animal in your refusal. It is no different than refusing a starving dog food, knowing it might die if you dont feed it, but also knowing more dogs will come if you do. And very sadly it is no different than refusing the begging child on the streets of Bangkok a handout, knowing that if you give it will only promote more begging children. It is a heart crushing decision to walk past a hungry child, but you have to process the decision to know that it will only push more hungry children to the street quite often and the hands of the mafia.

[jerrysteve]

Anything for Baht !! After all, they have wonderful role models in the government.

[cowslip]

Loss of habitat? Well it would be nice if you could reduce the plight of the elephant to a single issue - the problem here is the plethora of "domestic" or working elephants - they actually don't have a habitat and releasing into the wild is not an option in most cases as the associated issues and practicalities are pretty much insurmountable.

Wildlife habitat is very much under attack form several quarters in Thailand. You might want to investigate HOW and WHY it is under attack - you'll find it is quite a complex issue in it's own right.

Same as other countries? Well firstly do the sins of one country justify the sins of another?

Secondly Thailand is actually quite different from many other countries with tracks of rain forest to preserve and their record is dismal compared to other countries. Corruption and deception by government departments is rife and enforcement is negligible or erratic.

Edited August 12, 2012 by cowslip

[metisdead]

An off topic post have been removed.

[cowslip]

To say there is no room for elephants because man needs the space - or whatever it is the elephants have....is to ignore the situation with regards to our planet's eco-system.

Larger animals tend to be at the apex of much bigger and more complicated bio-systems. If they are removed, those systems are damaged or collapse. Unfortunately whether we like it or not we are PART of those systems and in damaging them are simply pulling the rug from under our OWN feet.

We need healthy eco-systems for a stable climate and sustainable food and fuel resources, getting rid of a species may not in itself have an obvious or immediate effect, but the ramifications will eventually affect us all. THe tropical forests are effectively the lungs of the planet, they also control flooding , but they are not and cannot be regarded as isolated organisms - they can only survive with the correct balance of wildlife within them.

And before anyone says it's Thailand's problem and none of our business; the planet's eco-system is not dependant on national borders - it is the responsability of all of us to ensure that the world's eco-systems are not destroyed or damaged beyond repair by irresponsible, ignorant and corrupt governments

[Johpa]

A new problem then arose.....the Thai population of elephants was ageing and a shortage might develop - the solution then? to breed more elephants - baby elephants are particularly popular, BUT NO_ONE SEEMS TO ASK WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM - the original idea was to retire and look after "domesticated" elephants, now there's a whole new trade in getting new animals especially babies....

They are smuggled from Myanmar etc., and wild elephants are "broken in" - this is probably one of the most horrific things you've ever witnessed. - google it!

Well you can go to the Mae Sa elephant camp and visit the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years. You can also see the first born to that elephant, as well as the second born and now the third born. All three young ones were born at the Mae Sa camp. And I can attest that without the concerted efforts of the vets and the staff at the Mae Sa camp, the first born would have never survived.

[cowslip]

A new problem then arose.....the Thai population of elephants was ageing and a shortage might develop - the solution then? to breed more elephants - baby elephants are particularly popular, BUT NO_ONE SEEMS TO ASK WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM - the original idea was to retire and look after "domesticated" elephants, now there's a whole new trade in getting new animals especially babies....

They are smuggled from Myanmar etc., and wild elephants are "broken in" - this is probably one of the most horrific things you've ever witnessed. - google it!

Well you can go to the Mae Sa elephant camp and visit the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years. You can also see the first born to that elephant, as well as the second born and now the third born. All three young ones were born at the Mae Sa camp. And I can attest that without the concerted efforts of the vets and the staff at the Mae Sa camp, the first born would have never survived.

I'm not sure what point you are making here.....you can account for 3 baby elephants?

...... or do you think it is a good idea to breed them in captivity?

[Johpa]

I'm not sure what point you are making here.....you can account for 3 baby elephants?

...... or do you think it is a good idea to breed them in captivity?

Well you asked, somewhat rhetorically mind you, where the baby elephants were coming from and by innuendo you hinted that they came from Burma. I made a clear case that people do know where the baby elephants come from and not all come from Burma. You will not find a Burmese born baby elephant at Mae Sa, the largest elephant camp in the Kingdom. The more general point I have repeatedly been trying to make here, often to deaf ears, is that the good elephant camps are part of the solution and not part of the problem and thus domesticated breeding is not only good but necessary for the survival of the species.

[cowslip]

I'm not sure what point you are making here.....you can account for 3 baby elephants?

...... or do you think it is a good idea to breed them in captivity?

Well you asked, somewhat rhetorically mind you, where the baby elephants were coming from and by innuendo you hinted that they came from Burma. I made a clear case that people do know where the baby elephants come from and not all come from Burma. You will not find a Burmese born baby elephant at Mae Sa, the largest elephant camp in the Kingdom. The more general point I have repeatedly been trying to make here, often to deaf ears, is that the good elephant camps are part of the solution and not part of the problem and thus domesticated breeding is not only good but necessary for the survival of the species.

“and not all come from Burma.”

I’m sorry but I don’t believe you correctly interpreted what I wrote you seem to have drawn some unintended inferences, and used you own camp as evidence of the situation of elephants throughout Thailand. I hope you are not trying to say that because you have bred 3 elephants everything is fine with the elephant in Thailand and no smuggling takes place.

Firstly I’m sure that well-run elephant conservation organisations play a crucial part in the future of this animal. But in Thailand - a country with few animal protection laws and even less enforcement, there are many organisations posing as conservationists that are merely exploiting their animals for profit with scant regard for either their welfare or conservation aims.

I don’t know anything about your personal efforts but you seem to think that my criticisms are aimed at your organisation in particular - which obviously is a completely erroneous conclusion - however some of your comments do worry me............you seem to imply that because your 3 elephants were born in Thailand, my comments were incorrect......

Without any doubt elephants both young and adult are being smuggled from Burma and there is little or no curiosity as to where these elephants are coming from. That you assert that in your camp there are none, can in no way imply (I’m not using innuendo - try inference and implication) that this practice does not take place.... and furthermore when these animals are paraded in public few if any ask where they came from.

I’m also a bit concerned with your apparent premise that simply breeding of elephants in captivity is inevitably part of the solution. Surely it should be carried out in very specific circumstances? Certainly not all camps could justify this. Whereas breeding programs are essential in the right circumstances, breeding animals just for show, rental or public entertainment is somewhat dubious.

There is a huge difference between a CAPTIVE BREEDING PROGRAM and BREEDING IN CAPTIVITY.

From and conservation point of view, keeping a species in captivity does not have the same effect as having the animals living in the wild, as in the wild they are taking part in the eco-system that they should be part of rather than being an isolated organism in a restricted or artificial environment. The ecological/environmental approach needs to be a holistic one.

I think that a lot of questions need to be asked about any breeding program -

For example......

As a solution to the problem or to the survival of the species....

· What are your aims and how do you intend to achieve this?

· How does your breeding program work?

· Do we need more elephants in captivity in your region?

· Are you breeding within international guidelines? (e.g. CITES, ETIS)

· What sort of records do you keep? - what is their ancestry?

· Do you intend to release the animals into the wild or use them as public spectacles....or what?

· Are you keeping the young in the family group?

· How are you ensuring that you create an increase in the gene-pool?

· Will you be breaking in these animals - what methods will you use?

That your camp may be doing a good job does not absolve the sins of other organisations. I’m sure many camps and other elephant organisations in Thailand do not concern themselves with the bigger picture.

[cowslip]

A new problem then arose.....the Thai population of elephants was ageing and a shortage might develop - the solution then? to breed more elephants - baby elephants are particularly popular, BUT NO_ONE SEEMS TO ASK WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM - the original idea was to retire and look after "domesticated" elephants, now there's a whole new trade in getting new animals especially babies....

They are smuggled from Myanmar etc., and wild elephants are "broken in" - this is probably one of the most horrific things you've ever witnessed. - google it!

Well you can go to the Mae Sa elephant camp and visit the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years. You can also see the first born to that elephant, as well as the second born and now the third born. All three young ones were born at the Mae Sa camp. And I can attest that without the concerted efforts of the vets and the staff at the Mae Sa camp, the first born would have never survived.

so are you saying you owned the Mae Sa camp?

[Johpa]

Well you can go to the Mae Sa elephant camp and visit the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years.

so are you saying you owned the Mae Sa camp?

Well that is not how I, nor most native speakers of English, would parse my grammar. The noun phrase /the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years/ is the direct object of the transitive verb /to visit/.

[cowslip]

Well you can go to the Mae Sa elephant camp and visit the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years.

so are you saying you owned the Mae Sa camp?

Well that is not how I, nor most native speakers of English, would parse my grammar. The noun phrase /the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years/ is the direct object of the transitive verb /to visit/.

Most people who speak or read English are able to draw inferences from script - however it seems to me that now you are evading the question and it looks to me as if you are part and parcel of the exploitation of elephants in Thailand and that is why you are trying to be so evasive. I take it you didn't own the park as well but merely an elephant. How did you purchase it , from who and why?

It looks as if you are a part of the naive public duped into putting money into some allegedly beneficial arrangement for the elephants but in reality, it seems you are saying that you owned an elephant that presumably was beaten into submission and then forced to do anthropomorphic tasks purely to entertain an ignorant or naive public.

is this a fair assessment?

Edited August 21, 2012 by cowslip

[klikster]

Well you can go to the Mae Sa elephant camp and visit the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years.

so are you saying you owned the Mae Sa camp?

Well that is not how I, nor most native speakers of English, would parse my grammar. The noun phrase /the elephant my wife and I owned for nearly 20 years/ is the direct object of the transitive verb /to visit/.

Most people who speak or read English are able to draw inferences from script - however it seems to me that now you are evading the question and it looks to me as if you are part and parcel of the exploitation of elephants in Thailand and that is why you are trying to be so evasive. I take it you didn't own the park as well but merely an elephant. How did you purchase it , from who and why?

It looks as if you are a part of the naive public duped into putting money into some allegedly beneficial arrangement for the elephants but in reality, it seems you are saying that you owned an elephant that presumably was beaten into submission and then forced to do anthropomorphic tasks purely to entertain an ignorant or naive public.

is this a fair assessment?

script [skrɪpt]n

1. handwriting as distinguished from print, esp cursive writing

2. the letters, characters, or figures used in writing by hand

3. any system or style of writing

You don't know Johpa very well, do you?

I understood exactly what he wrote (in sans-serif, BTW). Johpa lived in Northern Thailand for 20 odd years, bought an elephant (as a rescue?), then apparently gave it to the elephant camp. He has apparently seen 3 offspring from 'his' elephant.

You seem to be trying like hell to start an argument.

[cowslip]

I think you should read my post and learn how to use a dictionary.

[stefb1964]

Over 80 percent of the worlds population exists in Asia to the middle-east. HUMANS are the problem...

The so called human race displays more unwanted beastly behaviour than other animals where kills only happen out of necessity. Only the human race seems to be able to find pleasure in seeing animals and other humans alike to suffer.

Edited August 21, 2012 by stefb1964

[SOEYCHANLOY]

When I see people bringing a baby elephant around to get fed for a few Baht, I never do it. Tell them to go away. It's a well known fact here in Thailand how these magnificent creatures are trained. Evil.

But them I basically against any animals in cages or captivity. Just not natural.

Look how they treat their people.... Then guess how they can treat any animal!

Sent from my GT-S5830T using Thaivisa Connect App

[cowslip]

It would be very sad if well-meaning foreigners add to the exploitation of elephants when they think they are helping.

[chotthee]

But farang capture, train and display Whales is OK.

[cowslip]

But farang capture, train and display Whales is OK.

Yet again an utterly pointless argument that seems to think that if they can point out a wrong somewhere else, it justifies the wrong being talked about.

I also think it is very sad perspective to see the issues in terms of "farang" v Thai (?) - a blinkered approach that will never be able to view the whole problem.

[Thongkorn]

There are good and bad of every thing, not all Elephants are miss treat, they are very intelligent animals and will only do what they want, if you miss treat them believe

me they will get you.

This Elephant is the wife's pet, The baby Elephant has never been miss treat and the baby elephant will do almost anything it is ask to do, It has never had any training, the baby Elephants mother is always stood close by. we see it as part of the family and is always treat the same as a person.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Thongkorn

[cowslip]

There are good and bad of every thing, not all Elephants are miss treat, they are very intelligent animals and will only do what they want, if you miss treat them believe

me they will get you.

This Elephant is the wife's pet, The baby Elephant has never been miss treat and the baby elephant will do almost anything it is ask to do, It has never had any training, the baby Elephants mother is always stood close by. we see it as part of the family and is always treat the same as a person.

"There are good and bad of every thing, not all Elephants are miss treat, they are very intelligent animals and will only do what they want, if you miss treat them believe they will get you" - complete and utter tosh!

THe use of pure fantasy and anthropomorphism to put forward a totally ridiculous argument - if it was true we'd have had a "revolution" of elephants decades ago.

citing one example is also a weak way to make a point.

Frankly it is this kind of banal and unthinking attiude that allows the expooitation of elephants and all other animals to continue unabated

[chotthee]

If goose, pig, deer, camel, cow, ostrich, crocodile, bear even tiger can be farm for they meat and parts, why not start the world first Elephant farm in Thailand.

[cowslip]

If goose, pig, deer, camel, cow, ostrich, crocodile, bear even tiger can be farm for they meat and parts, why not start the world first Elephant farm in Thailand.

Yet again this is an example of the profound ignorance of some people when it comes to even the most basic concepts in animal welfare and conservation.

Ignorance is the main enemy of conservation and it would seem it is in abundance here.

[longtom]

There are good and bad of every thing, not all Elephants are miss treat, they are very intelligent animals and will only do what they want, if you miss treat them believe

me they will get you.

This Elephant is the wife's pet, The baby Elephant has never been miss treat and the baby elephant will do almost anything it is ask to do, It has never had any training, the baby Elephants mother is always stood close by. we see it as part of the family and is always treat the same as a person.

"There are good and bad of every thing, not all Elephants are miss treat, they are very intelligent animals and will only do what they want, if you miss treat them believe they will get you" - complete and utter tosh!

THe use of pure fantasy and anthropomorphism to put forward a totally ridiculous argument - if it was true we'd have had a "revolution" of elephants decades ago.

citing one example is also a weak way to make a point.

Frankly it is this kind of banal and unthinking attiude that allows the expooitation of elephants and all other animals to continue unabated.

And who exactly made you the only and final judge about all matters concerning elephant conservation in Thailand? Not so sure your all or nothing approach will show the best results in this country. Ok you can start bashing me now.

Edited August 25, 2012 by longtom