Utter Idiocy

[JUDAS]

Well said GH.

[GuestHouse]

Hi there GuestHouse.

Firstly great that you both bought those images to our attention for discussion and having grown up in a Culture, most likely similar to yours, I can see how aghast you would feel that a societal culture as rich as the Thai would allow such a thing, particularly when it is common practise that an adult should stand for a child on public transport, when quite the opposite is true in my, and most likely your Culture.

When we see something that we don't understand, we try and rationalise it to the set of laws, social, cultural, physical and government that we know.

We know that this riding style poses increased danger to the child.

No helmet is also questionable.

But still, you have the evidence in the photo.

The rider of the bike made a judgement call that the joy that the child experienced outweighed the inherent risks.

Did any of the Thais try and stop the rider and point out to (presumably him) the error and folly of his ways ... most likely not.

Do the Thai population have a much higher death toll per head from motorcycle accidents then say Germany or New Zealand etc ... most likely.

Would I do this with my kid around the Farm at 5 kph ... probably.

Would I do this around a public road at 50 kph ... probably not.

The truefull answer is absoloutly not.

In Australia, on large Farms, it’s is quite common for a child as young as 12 to learn to drive the paddock car and by 15 actually working the Farm tractor.

But would that be allowed on the road … absolutely not.

It similarly comes down to what is acceptable to the country we live in.

So it's not the action (kid on the bike) to be condemned, but the place the action took place?

Again, the rider of the bike thought that it was Ok

I am not trying to argue that what occurred in the photo conforms with my value set, nor am I trying to change your and other readers minds … but I do think that a counter argument could be provided so that there is a balanced view point.

EDIT

In my years I lived in London I spent a fair about of time as a motorcycle courier.

If you were to get sideswiped, a very common form of motorcycle accident, whether the child was standing as the child was in the photo, or tucked up behind Dad ... the result would most likely be, very much the same ... ... Helmets do increase the chance of survival immensely.

.

There's a problem with this - I showed the photos to a number of Thais today, they all recognised the idiocy.

This should not surprise us. We read a great deal on TV and elsewhere about Thai road safety, Thai attitudes to safety.

But I observe on the road much the same what I observe in the work place.

The vast majority of Thai drivers/workers are following the core principles of safe driving/working - A small minority behave, like the adults in the photos I have posted as complete idiots - The idiots in the cases I have posted are worse still instilling idiocy in children.

The point about the idiots is - nobody does anything about them.

Next time your on the highway, take a look, most the cars/motorbikes are following the core principals of safety - Not driving too fast, indicating before chaining lanes, not driving too close to the vehicle in front, wearing seat belts/helmets.

The Common Thai behaviour is to follow the rules - its the idiots who don't follow the rules, who cause the accidents.

[transam]

Hi there GuestHouse.

Firstly great that you both bought those images to our attention for discussion and having grown up in a Culture, most likely similar to yours, I can see how aghast you would feel that a societal culture as rich as the Thai would allow such a thing, particularly when it is common practise that an adult should stand for a child on public transport, when quite the opposite is true in my, and most likely your Culture.

When we see something that we don't understand, we try and rationalise it to the set of laws, social, cultural, physical and government that we know.

We know that this riding style poses increased danger to the child.

No helmet is also questionable.

But still, you have the evidence in the photo.

The rider of the bike made a judgement call that the joy that the child experienced outweighed the inherent risks.

Did any of the Thais try and stop the rider and point out to (presumably him) the error and folly of his ways ... most likely not.

Do the Thai population have a much higher death toll per head from motorcycle accidents then say Germany or New Zealand etc ... most likely.

Would I do this with my kid around the Farm at 5 kph ... probably.

Would I do this around a public road at 50 kph ... probably not.

The truefull answer is absoloutly not.

In Australia, on large Farms, it’s is quite common for a child as young as 12 to learn to drive the paddock car and by 15 actually working the Farm tractor.

But would that be allowed on the road … absolutely not.

It similarly comes down to what is acceptable to the country we live in.

So it's not the action (kid on the bike) to be condemned, but the place the action took place?

Again, the rider of the bike thought that it was Ok

I am not trying to argue that what occurred in the photo conforms with my value set, nor am I trying to change your and other readers minds … but I do think that a counter argument could be provided so that there is a balanced view point.

EDIT

In my years I lived in London I spent a fair about of time as a motorcycle courier.

If you were to get sideswiped, a very common form of motorcycle accident, whether the child was standing as the child was in the photo, or tucked up behind Dad ... the result would most likely be, very much the same ... ... Helmets do increase the chance of survival immensely.

.

There's a problem with this - I showed the photos to a number of Thais today, they all recognised the idiocy.

This should not surprise us. We read a great deal on TV and elsewhere about Thai road safety, Thai attitudes to safety.

But I observe on the road much the same what I observe in the work place.

The vast majority of Thai drivers/workers are following the core principles of safe driving/working - A small minority behave, like the adults in the photos I have posted as complete idiots - The idiots in the cases I have posted are worse still instilling idiocy in children.

The point about the idiots is - nobody does anything about them.

Next time your on the highway, take a look, most the cars/motorbikes are following the core principals of safety - Not driving too fast, indicating before chaining lanes, not driving too close to the vehicle in front, wearing seat belts/helmets.

The Common Thai behaviour is to follow the rules - its the idiots who don't follow the rules, who cause the accidents.

But, Thais will agree with you cos you superior farang, they want the same recognition. Where l am, Thai police do the same crazy stuff with their kids when out of uniform, they don't care, nobody cares about anything.

[GuestHouse]

But, Thais will agree with you cos you superior farang, they want the same recognition. Where l am, Thai police do the same crazy stuff with their kids when out of uniform, they don't care, nobody cares about anything.

Well I'm very flattered that you might think that so, but I assure you two of the Thais I showed this to today are extremely unlikely to regard me as a superior farang (though they might recognise superior to some farangs ).

[Johnniey]

If you were to get sideswiped, a very common form of motorcycle accident, whether the child was standing as the child was in the photo, or tucked up behind Dad ... the result would most likely be, very much the same ... ... Helmets do increase the chance of survival immensely.

OP doesn't say how fast the bike was travelling.

When I was a kid we'd cycle down the road with the guy on the back standing on the bits near the back hub. Probably no faster than 20km'h. We also did it with someone sitting on the handlebars - great fun.

I would have thought that if he were travelling slowly and the bike fell over, the kid could just jump off and be safer than getting the bike fall on top of him.

It is unwise to judge the father as you have no idea the circumstances. Maybe he can't afford to take the kid to school by taxi and thought that letting him stand up would make his day - maybe the boy arrived at school telling the others how cool his dad is. Maybe the father is dying of cancer and this is the last chance he will have to take his son to school. etc

"Utter idiocy" is a very strong title to use. Maybe you were having a bad morning, late for the office and pissed off with your driver and the traffic and felt the need to make yourself seem superior to this man taking his kid to school.

[transam]

But, Thais will agree with you cos you superior farang, they want the same recognition. Where l am, Thai police do the same crazy stuff with their kids when out of uniform, they don't care, nobody cares about anything.

Well I'm very flattered that you might think that so, but I assure you two of the Thais I showed this to today are extremely unlikely to regard me as a superior farang (though they might recognize superior to some farangs ).

, perhaps your Thai friends have been to Pattaya eh, but Nooooooooo, not you in particular regarding superior. Perhaps different up North, in the sticks.

[MrsMills]

You all know my posting style,

Boring ?

[transam]

You all know my posting style,

Boring ?

Behave or you will have to do something on the Ivories.

[mauGR1]

If you were to get sideswiped, a very common form of motorcycle accident, whether the child was standing as the child was in the photo, or tucked up behind Dad ... the result would most likely be, very much the same ... ... Helmets do increase the chance of survival immensely.

OP doesn't say how fast the bike was travelling.

When I was a kid we'd cycle down the road with the guy on the back standing on the bits near the back hub. Probably no faster than 20km'h. We also did it with someone sitting on the handlebars - great fun.

I would have thought that if he were travelling slowly and the bike fell over, the kid could just jump off and be safer than getting the bike fall on top of him.

It is unwise to judge the father as you have no idea the circumstances. Maybe he can't afford to take the kid to school by taxi and thought that letting him stand up would make his day - maybe the boy arrived at school telling the others how cool his dad is. Maybe the father is dying of cancer and this is the last chance he will have to take his son to school. etc

"Utter idiocy" is a very strong title to use. Maybe you were having a bad morning, late for the office and pissed off with your driver and the traffic and felt the need to make yourself seem superior to this man taking his kid to school.

I agree that " Utter idiocy " sounds very bad, maybe " cultural diversity " would be better...

...Although we cannot deny that some older folks, used to drive for 30 yrs into the somewhat predictable UK or EU traffic, may find themselves shocked in front of the "Asian reality ".

I will start a Thread soon, about the rate of foreigner's car and motorbike accidents correlated to stray dogs, abuse of alcohol, or relationship troubles ( or the whole of them )

[DrTuner]

One really should have a camera at all times. Once I saw a true artist on a Honda Wave. He (I'd guess around 15y old) was doing what I'd guess was ~50km/h, going wrong way on the main highway #2 just south of Korat, standing on the seat with one foot, facing backwards (the way he should've been riding). Must've locked the gas somehow. I found that pretty cool and utterly stupid.

[BookMan]

I really don't see a problem.

Guess you guys are all too used to being told what to do by your nanny states.

I entitled this post "Utter Idiocy" and commented - 'Needs no words really". You all know my posting style, so 'Needs no words" was a bit of a departure.... One that I gave thought to.

The thought being, I'll express my view that the images I posted have captured 'Utter Idiocy' (my view which I'm please most agree with), and leave it to the board to give their own opinions.

I did not rant against all Thailand, all Thais or even groups of Thais.

Nor did I say there ought to be a law against this, the adult driver(s) need arresting, should be sent to prison/be flogged, child welfare should be called - I did not invoke the power of the state, or indeed the 'Nanny State'.

But here we have TommoPhysicist proclaiming he can see nothing wrong in riding a motorcycle on a public road with a young child standing on the back seat. And then goes on tell us we've all too used to being told what to do by our "Nanny States".

For TommoPhysicist not to see 'anything' wrong, he'd have to have missed his classes on the very basic laws of physics and dynamics. He'd also have to lack any imagination and the ability to extrapolate the consequences of any number of incidents that might cause a sudden change to the direction, speed or vertical alignment of the bike beneath the child. He is, he would have us believe, blind to the risks and the endangerment of a child. We don't need any laws, other than the laws of physics to help us understand this endangerment.

Perhaps Tommo(Failed)Physicist has been blinded to the endangerment of a child by his overriding issues with the Nanny State he was so keen to bring into the discussion.

Where the failure to understand the hazards and the physics indicates a problem of intellect, the latter indicates failings in psychology.

That endangerment of a child brings about such a need to moan about the 'nanny state' is to my mind a tad disturbing.

But I take comfort in the knowledge that it is almost certainly to a Nanny State that TP shall return if and when his freely made life choices here in Thailand go to rat <deleted>.

A well constructed post GH and you make some good points.

Common sense safety and deriding it under the guise of being a product of the western nanny states is very common.

I believe though that it this is often used as a reflex term and not many people have thought it through as clearly as you have here in this post.

[Rsquared]

Education is the governing factor that results in some of the things we witness on Thai roads..........more so "lack of education".

After reading all the posts in this thread, I think I can safely assume that all have a sound understanding of physics, and hence have stated the possible outcomes should an accident occur.

Not all Thais are educated to our level of understanding and what I have witnessed in the short time that I've been here, is when it comes to physics...Thais prefer the "suck it and see" approach.

In other words, if it doesn't work this way, lets try another way....and so-on until they get it right.

Having said that, I have also witnessed some very amazing techniques to get something done that would require me to "think outside the box".

But back to topic.......one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the poorer part of Thai society cannot afford to transport their family of 5 or more (I know it doesn't relate to the OP photo.....but we've all seen it) in a minibus or Fortuner, so they improvise and carry the whole crew on an mc designed to carry max 2 persons.

As frightening as it is to our eyes, they sometimes have no choice.

....and other times they definitely do not have the "what-if" gene.

So what can we do about it???????

Give them a wide berth when overtaking or approaching from the opposite direction.....other than that.....SFA>

Cheers.

[GuestHouse]

It is unwise to judge the father as you have no idea the circumstances. Maybe he can't afford to take the kid to school by taxi and thought that letting him stand up would make his day - maybe the boy arrived at school telling the others how cool his dad is. Maybe the father is dying of cancer and this is the last chance he will have to take his son to school. etc

"Utter idiocy" is a very strong title to use. Maybe you were having a bad morning, late for the office and pissed off with your driver and the traffic and felt the need to make yourself seem superior to this man taking his kid to school.

I have not judged the father, I have said the photo portrays an act of Utter Idiocy - I have not exampled, attempted to explain (or excuse) why the father has committed such an act of Utter Idiocy.

But thank you, I do take note of the need you seem to have to excuse the adult endangering the child.

[aussiebebe]

I wouldn't say it's 'utter idiocy' - you haven't ever visited India have you? Indians makes Thai antics look utopian. Once you've seen 7 Indians on a tuk-tuk (they have the same vehicles in India) plus three more on the roof.....on a motorway.....at night.....you can't call anything Thais do idiotic.

[GuestHouse]

Education is the governing factor that results in some of the things we witness on Thai roads..........more so "lack of education".

After reading all the posts in this thread, I think I can safely assume that all have a sound understanding of physics, and hence have stated the possible outcomes should an accident occur.

Not all Thais are educated to our level of understanding and what I have witnessed in the short time that I've been here, is when it comes to physics...Thais prefer the "suck it and see" approach.

In other words, if it doesn't work this way, lets try another way....and so-on until they get it right.

Having said that, I have also witnessed some very amazing techniques to get something done that would require me to "think outside the box".

But back to topic.......one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the poorer part of Thai society cannot afford to transport their family of 5 or more (I know it doesn't relate to the OP photo.....but we've all seen it) in a minibus or Fortuner, so they improvise and carry the whole crew on an mc designed to carry max 2 persons.

As frightening as it is to our eyes, they sometimes have no choice.

....and other times they definitely do not have the "what-if" gene.

So what can we do about it???????

Give them a wide berth when overtaking or approaching from the opposite direction.....other than that.....SFA>

Cheers.

I agree with this and I especially agree with your observation that sometimes the motorbike is the only option - I don't say it is idiocy to take a child on a motorbike, far from it.

I do say the photos portray the unnecessary endangerment of a child and to my mind constitute Utter Idiocy - Others agree with me.

Those who do not seem to not agree for reason that do not relate to the risks, but rather issues they personally have regarding foreigners expressing opinions and or the something they refer to as the Nanny State. We've even had 'maybe the father is dying of cancer' - well what of it, he's trying to kill his son first?

[GuestHouse]

I wouldn't say it's 'utter idiocy' - you haven't ever visited India have you? Indians makes Thai antics look utopian. Once you've seen 7 Indians on a tuk-tuk (they have the same vehicles in India) plus three more on the roof.....on a motorway.....at night.....you can't call anything Thais do idiotic.

I have no doubt whatsoever you will find examples of Utter Idiocy everywhere if you look, but the existence of Utter Idiocy elsewhere, in no way precludes it showing up in Thailand - as my photos demonstrate.

[barky]

It is unwise to judge the father as you have no idea the circumstances. Maybe he can't afford to take the kid to school by taxi and thought that letting him stand up would make his day - maybe the boy arrived at school telling the others how cool his dad is. Maybe the father is dying of cancer and this is the last chance he will have to take his son to school. etc

"Utter idiocy" is a very strong title to use. Maybe you were having a bad morning, late for the office and pissed off with your driver and the traffic and felt the need to make yourself seem superior to this man taking his kid to school.

I have not judged the father, I have said the photo portrays an act of Utter Idiocy - I have not exampled, attempted to explain (or excuse) why the father has committed such an act of Utter Idiocy.

But thank you, I do take note of the need you seem to have to excuse the adult endangering the child.

Oh c'mon Guest house you don't need to justify yourself in these situations. You called it right first time. I'll judge the dumb arse father as an irresponsible idiot, I pity the kid because he's gonna grow up probably as un-thinking and carless and irresponsible as his father. Never mind what could happen directly to the child, but in a road accident there would probably be other unwitting innocent people involved needlessly. So, my judgement "stupid". If people disagree with my "stance" I don't care in the least.

[farang000999]

You all know my posting style,

Boring ?

i like GH but this was funny.

[David48]

You all know my posting style,

Boring ?

i like GH but this was funny.

Agreed, for me, GH is always worth reading ... but I had more then a quiet chuckle ...

No disrespect GH ... and I am sure, none taken.

[cdnvic]

You all know my posting style,

Boring ?

Few have contributed as solidly to this forum over the years as Guesthouse.

[David48]

What is interesting GuestHouse is that your photo contained separate motorcyclists.

All the focus has been on the one with the child standing on the seat of the bike.

What about the other one, which I have cropped and posted below so a little easier to analyse.

.

Here you have a similar situation where the father is clearly not wearing a helmet, nor the accompanying child passenger and is riding the wrong way up the street, but at what speed, we don't know.

Not wearing helmets is never a good choice, but Thais time and time again make that choice.

Riding the WRONG way up the street is contrary to the road rules in Thailand (I assume) but equally a common practise.

When I was renting an apartment just south of Bangkok it adjoined a 6 lane road which was fed by Sukhumvit Road maybe 2 klms away ... so fairly busy.

And the riding, the wrong way up the road, by dads, mums, dads with mums, motorcycle couriers was a common occurrence.

What is the worst offence for you GuestHouse and others here and why?

As a complete aside, while I was compiling this post, I note that the Mod cdnvic posted a supporting statement and it's nice to see acknowledgement to a long standing member (GH) from the Moderation Team ... as it is, to give to the Moderation Team, acknowledgement from me, for the mostly thankless task that they do keeping the topics here on track ...

.

[GuestHouse]

You all know my posting style,

Boring ?

Few have contributed as solidly to this forum over the years as Guesthouse.

Thank you CV, but I have to admit, I chuckled myself.

[MrsMills]

You all know my posting style,

Boring ?

Few have contributed as solidly to this forum over the years as Guesthouse.

Thank you CV, but I have to admit, I chuckled myself.

Good man.

Edited July 25, 2012 by MrsMills

[Somtamnication]

Ok. I´ll bite.Here is MY pic, taken while eating lunch in my car.

[TommoPhysicist]

I've lived and worked in Thailand for 12 out of the past 20 years, I speak read and write the language, I have wide circle of Thai friends from across almost the whole range of Thai society. I specifically choose to socialise with Thais rather than foreigners and have only once in the past 20 years come across a Thai who has told me to go home (he was pissed and ranting about foreigners taking Thai jobs - and for the record it was other Thais who carted him off and asked my to forgive his behaviour).

So come on TP - Put up - Explain yourself.

Explain when it is acceptable in your little world for a foreigner to express an opinion about Thai behaviour?

Give me the evidence of where I hold Thai people in contempt?

Explain upon what authority do you get to decide what opinions foreigners may or may not express in Thailand?

And nowhere do you mention your Thai wife or the children you had with her, or your extended local family.

(I was actually just bouncing your previous flame from post #67 back on you)

Edited July 25, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[David48]

Ok. I´ll bite.Here is MY pic, taken while eating lunch in my car.

We certainly live in an interesting country.

Also interesting is the man on the other side of the 4 lane road, riding helmetless the wrong way up the road.

[GuestHouse]

And nowhere do you mention your Thai wife or the children you had with her, or your extended local family.

(I was actually just bouncing your previous flame from post #67 back on you)

.

You've obviously never come across my constantly repeated advice to others not to introduce their wife, children, family or anyone they care about into this nest of vipers.

Meanwhile, you sir have some explaining to do.

[canuckamuck]

Although the original photo was from Thailand, We all know that this picture could have been taken in any number of countries where traffic enforcement is laughable. I would go so far as to say that even in my own country we would see this occur if there was no threat of penalties. In fact You Tube is full of people qualifying for Darwin awards, and they are primarily from western developed nations.

Humans do what ever they can get away with and no stone is unturned in this pursuit. You can't fix stupid.

[farang000999]

Ok. I´ll bite.Here is MY pic, taken while eating lunch in my car.

is it possible to leave your house in Thailand and not see this?

[Johnniey]

This morning it was raining heavily where I live. Rather than have my wife be an utter idiot and take my kids to their school 1 km away on her motorbike - (yes two kids on a motorbike) – the insanity. I’m enlightened now thanks to this thread. I drove them there in my car.

I sat outside their private school, the second best in the city, I counted 7 mothers arriving with their daughters on motorcycles with umbrellas up. I was so outraged I wanted to go out and take photos and show the world how utterly idiotic they were. I thought of taking vdos and posting on youtube but then realized it was a waste of my precious time. I also realized that this is not the country I grew up in and has a totally different culture, laws and beliefs

Incidentally, I was in the country of my birth this year and was shocked at the stupidity of the people there. Is it stupidity or have I just been immersed in this culture for too long. Walking down the main street one morning I saw many mothers with young kids, (some pregnant) all smoking – I mean if that’s not stupid - and they’ve been warned too. This kind of thing doesn’t happen in Thailand.

When my wife and I went out one evening, there were so many idiots around – some walked directly at us so we had to move out the way to avoid a confrontation. There were so many idiots around at midnight when our club finished that there were literally police standing every 20 yards along a long road. There were young women falling over drunk, there were young men fighting, the language was terrible. But this was in a civilized country, the UK. Actually there was a lot that disgusted me about my old country and was happy to come ‘home’ to Thailand. I was happy to see bikes going whre the hell they wanted, happy to see the cars double parking on the main road. I even laughed when I saw a motorcyclist with a Horse –riding helmet on.

There seems to be different kinds of foreigners here - some, like me accept the things about Thailand that I can’t change. I let the things I don’t like about Thailand and can’t change) pass and don’t get worked up about them or criticize them. I continually look at the good things about Thailand and the bad things and weigh up if I want to live here or not. The answer has been, for 20 years, yes I want to stay here. I have a total choice in whether to stay here or not.

I’ve seen some farang that can’t seem to accept the things they don’t like but expect Thailand to continue with the things they like.

Criticizing the way people drive for example then agreeing to pay the convenience 200 baht to the traffic cop.

Complaining about the people breaking laws that would put them in jail in their home country then cheating on thei wifes down the massage parlour as that’s what Thai men do.

I, as a farang, am not better than the Thais , and I mean any Thais – rich or poor, clever or stupid, fat or thin etc.

It is a spiritual axiom that every time I am disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with me.

OP – you said I had lost the plot - I think you have a lot to learn about certain aspects of life. I know you live to earn money and post well on financial matters– try learning about living life in a spiritual way, whatever that may mean to you. By the time you retire and renunciate to your old haunt of Pattaya, it may be too late

Personally, I think it sad that you feel superior to someone you saw riding a motorcycle and ridiculed him, and his race on a public forum – you should be ashamed rather than try to defend error. Reminds me of those yuppies in London that used to throw their champagne over homeless people in London.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited July 25, 2012 by Johnniey