Ngo Or Sexpat

[Ulysses G.]

A guy that likes sex and does not live in the country that he was born in. There are very few in Thailand. Most foreigners are married to rich, frigid Chinese Thais that they are faithful to and spend most of their time running successful businesses and visiting temples.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[bonobo]

Geri and GH should combine your posts. That is the topic. What has any NGO done to provide an economic alternative to people who sell their bodies? Best I can see is they teach them how to make trinkets or sew.

While in the military, I had an opportunity to work side-by-side with a number of NGOs, and I have remained friends with quite a few of the people who worked in them. While I am not well versed in the specifics of NGOs in Thailand, I have been to NGOs in a number of other countries.

In Cambodia, I went to two NGOs who were training people to be chefs. One was aimed at ex-prostitutes, on at street children. I ate lunch at the one for street children, and the pride these young men (this one was only for boys) in being able to serve a meal that satisfied another was evident.

I think your continued denial that NGOs offer any worthwhile training is just a refusal to see the truth.

And while I wasn't present at the time, I saw a video where child prostitutes as young as 5 and 6 were rescued from a brothel in Svay Pak. The police barged in, and the children were screaming and crying and begging the police to let them go. Hmm, it looked like a drug raid and that the children were the criminals. So does that mean the police were wrong? That they should have left the kids in that kind of situation because the children themselves would cry if rescued?

I am not "anti-prostitution" as some posters are inferring anyone posting in favor of NGOs must be. What adults freely do is their own business, and I doubt too many Walking Street bargirls or barboys need "rescuing." On the other hand, there are people in this world who do need "rescuing," and even if that is not as blatant as raids to check for human trafficking, merely offering an option for people sick of that life is a valid service.

[brit1984]

Now if you want to make the argument (which is supported by Empower's report) that two of the NGOs have demonstrated crass naivety in their approach to their work and their subsequent actions. Then yes I would agree.

But to push that out to claim, as CMKelly does that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers then clearly the claim is unfounded.

Maybe its that snitching bit CMK objects to, people spoiling the fun.

I realize I am beating a dead horse but to arrest drug dealers one uses a snitch simply another brick in the wall of similarity between the way criminals are treated and trafficked women. But all of that aside just tell me how NGO's are going to help women get out of the sex trade with the old white sex pats? I think that is the point of the whole thread anyway. What can an NGO do specifically?

NGOs provide food and accommodation (and more) for all former sex workers who ask for it.

Sex-tourists / sex-pats provide the same (or similar) in return for sex (and/or other services).

How about supporting the family?

Only a very small portion of sex workers' customers actually marry them and then only some portion (of that small portion) provide meaningful support to their wife's family (and based on the evidence of this forum those that do this, do so rather begrudgingly).

By getting the sex workers out of the industry, retrained (for new industries like hotels) and back into normality, the NGOs give them a chance to stand on their own feet and/or maybe meet a normal (non-sex-pat/sex-tourist) husband and live happily ever after.

To be clear, I am not saying that sex-workers who marry their customers cannot also live happily ever after, they obviously can (and some do) although it seems like a sad way to live one's life to me (in a relationship that started, and possibly only continues, due to payment of cash).

[lovelomsak]

I want to say I have learned a lot from all the posts here. I would say most are on topic to a degree which is comforting. My threads usually get hyjacked and closed. I should add I didnot consider what other areas NGO'S work in and to be frank didnot consider it part of the thread but good info was gathered none the less.

The reason I posted was to simply find out if anyone has ever met anyone who has been brought back into mainstream life by any NGO group. I am aware that living in Thailand it is impossible to not meet some man marrried to an ex sex worker,a person does not have to be active in the world that supports that trade to meet others who have married from it.

I have friends that worked for years in Quatamala through church organizations, that finally gave up and closed shop out of frustration after over 25 years of trying. They found the cultural differences just to hard to deal with. Thay said it was at best their services were used as a form of recluse or resort till the sex worker felt the need or desire to return to work.

Some told me they couldnot tell me a full story of one person who didnot return to the trade except for those that grew to old to continue.

Thus what I really wanted to know was has anyone met an ex sexworker that has come from an NGO rehab process? I amnot asking for info about doctors doing good things for health care that is something totally different.or schooling for poor,or orphanages. These are still in Quatamala too ran by same church organizations. But the sexworker support has been withdrawn, out of pure frustration.

Edited August 25, 2012 by lovelomsak

[manarak]

I am not "anti-prostitution" as some posters are inferring anyone posting in favor of NGOs must be. What adults freely do is their own business, and I doubt too many Walking Street bargirls or barboys need "rescuing." On the other hand, there are people in this world who do need "rescuing," and even if that is not as blatant as raids to check for human trafficking, merely offering an option for people sick of that life is a valid service.

Well said.

I think the main problem with NGOs is their tendency to mix human trafficking, forced prostitution and underage prostitution with regular prostitution (which is legal).

I have yet to read a balanced and accurate text written by an NGO on the subject that doesn't try to cloud the readers judgement, for example by first talking in general terms about about alleged child prostitution in Thailand and then juxtapose statements like "thousands of young prostitutes offer their services to foreigners in Pattaya" in an intellectually dishonest effort to exagerate the problem. This is what makes me want to puke.

[theblether]

regular prostitution (which is legal).

No it's not.

[manarak]

regular prostitution (which is legal).

No it's not.

Please reference the article of Law that forbids paying or receiving money for sex.

[chiangmaikelly]

I am and I think everyone is anti and very much anti child prostitution in any way shape or form. It is reprehensible and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. I don't see why it should be discussed.

[StreetCowboy]

regular prostitution (which is legal).

No it's not.

I think the law in Thailand is not that different from the law in the UK.

Brothel-keeping is illegal. I believe pimping is illegal. I believe soliciting is illegal. But prostitution is not.

SC

[manarak]

regular prostitution (which is legal).

No it's not.

I think the law in Thailand is not that different from the law in the UK.

Brothel-keeping is illegal. I believe pimping is illegal. I believe soliciting is illegal. But prostitution is not.

SC

exact.

[StreetCowboy]

I am and I think everyone is anti and very much anti child prostitution in any way shape or form. It is reprehensible and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. I don't see why it should be discussed.

Because that's the sort of thing that NGOs address. There's not many sex-pats that marry child prostitutes, to the best of my knowledge.

SC

[chiangmaikelly]

I realize I am beating a dead horse but to arrest drug dealers one uses a snitch simply another brick in the wall of similarity between the way criminals are treated and trafficked women. But all of that aside just tell me how NGO's are going to help women get out of the sex trade with the old white sex pats? I think that is the point of the whole thread anyway. What can an NGO do specifically?

NGOs provide food and accommodation (and more) for all former sex workers who ask for it.

Sex-tourists / sex-pats provide the same (or similar) in return for sex (and/or other services).

How about supporting the family?

Only a very small portion of sex workers' customers actually marry them and then only some portion (of that small portion) provide meaningful support to their wife's family (and based on the evidence of this forum those that do this, do so rather begrudgingly).

By getting the sex workers out of the industry, retrained (for new industries like hotels) and back into normality, the NGOs give them a chance to stand on their own feet and/or maybe meet a normal (non-sex-pat/sex-tourist) husband and live happily ever after.

To be clear, I am not saying that sex-workers who marry their customers cannot also live happily ever after, they obviously can (and some do) although it seems like a sad way to live one's life to me (in a relationship that started, and possibly only continues, due to payment of cash).

How much do hotel workers make in Pattaya? Do you know most are now from Burma because the Thais don't want the job because it does not pay enough? How much training does it take to be a maid? Perhaps you are suggesting that women be given enough training to get a degree and get a job in car sales? How much does a cook make? 3,4,5 thousand baht per month?

[bonobo]

I am and I think everyone is anti and very much anti child prostitution in any way shape or form. It is reprehensible and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. I don't see why it should be discussed.

I brought it up as from the video, the rescue of these children looked pretty much as you described the raid in Chiang Mai. As no sane person would object that the Svay Pak raid, then why should the same methodology be the basis for objection for the Chiang Mai raid?

You keep harping on the prostitutes being treated like drug dealers, that the police use "snitches" and such. I just pointed out that the same methods are used to rescue minors, so I don't think the methodology can be used as a reason to dam_n the process.

[theblether]

regular prostitution (which is legal).

No it's not.

I think the law in Thailand is not that different from the law in the UK.

Brothel-keeping is illegal. I believe pimping is illegal. I believe soliciting is illegal. But prostitution is not.

SC

exact.

No it's not........

"The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, B.E. 2539 (1996) (the “Prostitution Law”), is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution. The law defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but only if it is done “in a promiscuous manner”. The Prostitution Law does not define what exactly a “promiscuous manner” constitutes, and the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore, while solicitation is."

Go ahead and work that one out..........

[manarak]

"The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, B.E. 2539 (1996) (the “Prostitution Law”), is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution. The law defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but only if it is done “in a promiscuous manner”. The Prostitution Law does not define what exactly a “promiscuous manner” constitutes, and the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore, while solicitation is."

Go ahead and work that one out..........

it states clearly: "the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore"

i.e. prostitution = legal

[bonobo]

How much do hotel workers make in Pattaya? Do you know most are now from Burma because the Thais don't want the job because it does not pay enough? How much training does it take to be a maid? Perhaps you are suggesting that women be given enough training to get a degree and get a job in car sales? How much does a cook make? 3,4,5 thousand baht per month?

So your beef with NGOs is that they don't give ex-prostitutes the means to make the same amount of money that they can make hooking?

I rather think it is not up to you to decide what is a viable life for ex-prostitutes. I think is is up the the prostitute him or herself. All an NGO can do is offer an alternative.

[theblether]

"The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, B.E. 2539 (1996) (the “Prostitution Law”), is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution. The law defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but only if it is done “in a promiscuous manner”. The Prostitution Law does not define what exactly a “promiscuous manner” constitutes, and the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore, while solicitation is."

Go ahead and work that one out..........

it states clearly: "the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore"

i.e. prostitution = legal

It also states

is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution.

[GuestHouse]

An observation on the child prostitution issue.

When I first came to Thailand, indeed up until about 10 years ago, child prostitution (with foreigners) was common in Bangkok and Pattaya. There were areas where this was widely known to exist, indeed it was not uncommon to read these places being discussed in complaint letters to the local press - child prostitution was only very thinly hidden behind the wider adult prostitution business.

The change came when NGOs started getting involved in campaigning against child prostitution - they investigated and 'snitched' to the police, demanded that the police do something about child prostitution and raised the issue in conferences, in the press and in reports to home governments.

The result is that child prostitution is nowhere near as common in Thailand as it was a decade or two decades ago - we are told the sickos looking for this have moved onto Cambodia, but we also know the NGOs, in particular The Grey Man, have followed.

As Bonobo points out, film of the raids against this trade are not pretty watching and could very well be misrepresented, and I know some folk don't like snitchers, but if you want an example of where NGOs have made a very positive impact here in Thailand, challenging child prostitution and the institutional acceptance of child prostitution which had been allowed to exist is an almost perfect example.

Which of course might be why some don't like the subject to be discussed.

[manarak]

"The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, B.E. 2539 (1996) (the “Prostitution Law”), is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution. The law defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but only if it is done “in a promiscuous manner”. The Prostitution Law does not define what exactly a “promiscuous manner” constitutes, and the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore, while solicitation is."

Go ahead and work that one out..........

it states clearly: "the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore"

i.e. prostitution = legal

It also states

is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution.

You mean in the same way some laws totally prohibit drunk driving, unless blood concentration is less than 0.5 0/00 ?

Exactitude lies in the details.

[chiangmaikelly]

How much do hotel workers make in Pattaya? Do you know most are now from Burma because the Thais don't want the job because it does not pay enough? How much training does it take to be a maid? Perhaps you are suggesting that women be given enough training to get a degree and get a job in car sales? How much does a cook make? 3,4,5 thousand baht per month?

So your beef with NGOs is that they don't give ex-prostitutes the means to make the same amount of money that they can make hooking?

I rather think it is not up to you to decide what is a viable life for ex-prostitutes. I think is is up the the prostitute him or herself. All an NGO can do is offer an alternative.

I don't have any beef with NGO's at all. Just tell me about a woman in Thailand who was saved by an NGO and how.

Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[theblether]

@manarak.....

and that's where the devil catches you out in Thailand Sir........and you'll be as guilty as the arresting policeman decides you are.

I wouldn't like to see you standing in a Thai court announcing loudly to the World that prostitution was legal in Thailand......I don't think it would end well for you.

What do you think?

[chiangmaikelly]

An observation on the child prostitution issue.

When I first came to Thailand, indeed up until about 10 years ago, child prostitution (with foreigners) was common in Bangkok and Pattaya. There were areas where this was widely known to exist, indeed it was not uncommon to read these places being discussed in complaint letters to the local press - child prostitution was only very thinly hidden behind the wider adult prostitution business.

The change came when NGOs started getting involved in campaigning against child prostitution - they investigated and 'snitched' to the police, demanded that the police do something about child prostitution and raised the issue in conferences, in the press and in reports to home governments.

The result is that child prostitution is nowhere near as common in Thailand as it was a decade or two decades ago - we are told the sickos looking for this have moved onto Cambodia, but we also know the NGOs, in particular The Grey Man, have followed.

As Bonobo points out, film of the raids against this trade are not pretty watching and could very well be misrepresented, and I know some folk don't like snitchers, but if you want an example of where NGOs have made a very positive impact here in Thailand, challenging child prostitution and the institutional acceptance of child prostitution which had been allowed to exist is an almost perfect example.

Which of course might be why some don't like the subject to be discussed.

Why don't you start a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. No one was discussing that here.

[manarak]

@manarak.....

and that's where the devil catches you out in Thailand Sir........and you'll be as guilty as the arresting policeman decides you are.

I wouldn't like to see you standing in a Thai court announcing loudly to the World that prostitution was legal in Thailand......I don't think it would end well for you.

What do you think?

hihihi

I'd let my lawyer speak for me, he would certainly ask the court which article of Law I'd be breaking, and the court would be embarrassed.

Interesting reading for you:

go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prostitution_in_Thailand

and scroll down, there are two links to a newspaper that cannot be named on this forum, with 2 articles written by two Thai lawyers on this very subject.

[GuestHouse]

Meanwhile one John takes a liking to a prostitute, pays her out of the bar she works in, gives her a regular stipend, perhaps marries her, maybe even 'saves' her.

While elsewhere thousands more simply spend money buying sex and in doing so provide the economic driver behind women moving into the sex industry, by whatever means, choice, trickery or cohesion.

For the thesis to be correct, that NGOs are not doing as much good as Johns, we need to examine the positive contribution of NGOs, the negative contribution of NGOs and the positive and negative contribution of the Johns driving the sex industry.

[GuestHouse]

An observation on the child prostitution issue.

When I first came to Thailand, indeed up until about 10 years ago, child prostitution (with foreigners) was common in Bangkok and Pattaya. There were areas where this was widely known to exist, indeed it was not uncommon to read these places being discussed in complaint letters to the local press - child prostitution was only very thinly hidden behind the wider adult prostitution business.

The change came when NGOs started getting involved in campaigning against child prostitution - they investigated and 'snitched' to the police, demanded that the police do something about child prostitution and raised the issue in conferences, in the press and in reports to home governments.

The result is that child prostitution is nowhere near as common in Thailand as it was a decade or two decades ago - we are told the sickos looking for this have moved onto Cambodia, but we also know the NGOs, in particular The Grey Man, have followed.

As Bonobo points out, film of the raids against this trade are not pretty watching and could very well be misrepresented, and I know some folk don't like snitchers, but if you want an example of where NGOs have made a very positive impact here in Thailand, challenging child prostitution and the institutional acceptance of child prostitution which had been allowed to exist is an almost perfect example.

Which of course might be why some don't like the subject to be discussed.

Why don't you start a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. No one was discussing that here.

You mean please don't make arguments you can't handle.

What is very clear is your attempt to avoid the clear case made in my post that NGOs have done a first rate job at forcing child prostitution in Thailand, into the political policy arena, off the streets in Thailand.

But you can't accept that because you can't accept that NGO activity could possibly be any good.

[Rancid]

Several years ago in a thread here on ThaiVisa, there was a thread which mentioned attempts to close down Cambodia's Svay Pak and the rampant child prostitution there. While no one actually came out in support of buying young girls and boys, several posters did complain about NGOs sanctimoniously sticking their noses into someone else's business.

Frankly, I am always taken aback by the criticisms leveled against NGOs as a whole by posters here. Sure, there are people abusing the NGO system. Some people are in it strictly to see what they can get out of it. But most, in my opinion, are there to do what they see as good. If some get a nice salary for that, so be it.

This is wholly conjecture on my part, but to me, I wonder if the slings leveled at NGOs in general are kneejerk reactions to a fear of being targeted. Sure, child prostitution is a safe target, but what if they go after adult prostitution next? And then alcohol? And after that, smoking? What if they close down all the bars? "What I am going to do here in Thailand then?"

Like I wrote, that is wholly conjecture without a shred of evidence to lend credence to the theory, and I could be completely wrong. But there has to be some reason why NGOs, whose purported raison d'etre is to do good, are the targets of so many attacks here in the forum.

You raise many good points, but the question was can you personally identify people who have benefitted from NGO actions rather than general unsustantiated claims. We all hear about the claims, I gather the poster was wanting actually personal experience as to what is a lot of money trucked in and consumed as per all bureaucracies. As to the objectives that any but the hardest soul would describe as lauditory, seems he was questioning whether there are actaully any tangible results rather than wasted effort.

Also I note that you mention pedophilia and lack of resolve. I can assure you there is no lack of resolve in Rancid, I will happily list a few names if we are actually allowed to go after those animals. Are you up for it, no doubt more here than you imagine would follow suit as there are much more family men on TV than peds?

[theblether]

@manarak.....

and that's where the devil catches you out in Thailand Sir........and you'll be as guilty as the arresting policeman decides you are.

I wouldn't like to see you standing in a Thai court announcing loudly to the World that prostitution was legal in Thailand......I don't think it would end well for you.

What do you think?

hihihi

I'd let my lawyer speak for me, he would certainly ask the court which article of Law I'd be breaking, and the court would be embarrassed.

Interesting reading for you:

go here:

http://en.wikipedia....ion_in_Thailand

and scroll down, there are two links to a newspaper that cannot be named on this forum, with 2 articles written by two Thai lawyers on this very subject.

I don't think you could have picked a worse page to verify your argument.

Nail me with one legal text that states that prostitution is legal in Thailand and I'll stand corrected.

[bonobo]

How much do hotel workers make in Pattaya? Do you know most are now from Burma because the Thais don't want the job because it does not pay enough? How much training does it take to be a maid? Perhaps you are suggesting that women be given enough training to get a degree and get a job in car sales? How much does a cook make? 3,4,5 thousand baht per month?

So your beef with NGOs is that they don't give ex-prostitutes the means to make the same amount of money that they can make hooking?

I rather think it is not up to you to decide what is a viable life for ex-prostitutes. I think is is up the the prostitute him or herself. All an NGO can do is offer an alternative.

I don't have any beef with NGO's at all. Just tell me about a woman in Thailand who was saved by an NGO and how.

Then why decry the ... How much does a cook make? 3,4,5 thousand baht per month? Does it matter how much they make (although I know cooks making from 12,000 baht at the lowest to a stall owner who makes upwards of 65,000 per month)? I think that all that matters is that they have an alternative.

You have decried NGOs teaching women to make "trinkets." Why? It seems obvious from your posts that you think whatever NGOs are giving in training to ex-prostitutes does not constitute a viable alternative living as it does not earn enough. As I posted before, is that really a decision that you, a foreign man living here, is really qualified to make?

I have stated before that I don't know much about NGOs in Thailand. I don't know much about prostitutes here either. I am friendly with exactly one former prostitute that I know of (but as I don't ask, maybe there are others), and she was hardly forced into it. She very willingly worked her hiso Thai clientele for a number of years before marrying. So I can't give you an example of anyone "saved" by an NGO in Thailand, nor of one "saved" by a foreign man, for that matter.

However, I have seem women given an alternative by NGOs in Cambodia, and I think it would be pretty foolish to assume that Thailand is somehow immune to the same things which work in Cambodia.

[manarak]

Meanwhile one John takes a liking to a prostitute, pays her out of the bar she works in, gives her a regular stipend, perhaps marries her, maybe even 'saves' her.

While elsewhere thousands more simply spend money buying sex and in doing so provide the economic driver behind women moving into the sex industry, by whatever means, choice, trickery or cohesion.

For the thesis to be correct, that NGOs are not doing as much good as Johns, we need to examine the positive contribution of NGOs, the negative contribution of NGOs and the positive and negative contribution of the Johns driving the sex industry.

Maybe there is also a way to statistically study the number of male depression cases and suicides compared to the cost/availability of P4P per country.

[GuestHouse]

So ChiangMaiKelly, do you object to the fact that NGOs have played a very positive part in forcing child prostitution in Thailand into the Thai Political Policy Arena with the end result that Child Prostitution, once common in Thailand is now almost non existent and certainly pursued and prosecuted by the Thai authorities in a way it never was before the NGOs got involved?

Even if this involved a bit of snitching?!