Ngo Or Sexpat

[GuestHouse]

Meanwhile one John takes a liking to a prostitute, pays her out of the bar she works in, gives her a regular stipend, perhaps marries her, maybe even 'saves' her.

While elsewhere thousands more simply spend money buying sex and in doing so provide the economic driver behind women moving into the sex industry, by whatever means, choice, trickery or cohesion.

For the thesis to be correct, that NGOs are not doing as much good as Johns, we need to examine the positive contribution of NGOs, the negative contribution of NGOs and the positive and negative contribution of the Johns driving the sex industry.

Maybe there is also a way to statistically study the number of male depression cases and suicides compared to the cost/availability of P4P per country.

But that would not be Thailand related would it.

[chiangmaikelly]

How much do hotel workers make in Pattaya? Do you know most are now from Burma because the Thais don't want the job because it does not pay enough? How much training does it take to be a maid? Perhaps you are suggesting that women be given enough training to get a degree and get a job in car sales? How much does a cook make? 3,4,5 thousand baht per month?

So your beef with NGOs is that they don't give ex-prostitutes the means to make the same amount of money that they can make hooking?

I rather think it is not up to you to decide what is a viable life for ex-prostitutes. I think is is up the the prostitute him or herself. All an NGO can do is offer an alternative.

I don't have any beef with NGO's at all. Just tell me about a woman in Thailand who was saved by an NGO and how.

Then why decry the ... How much does a cook make? 3,4,5 thousand baht per month? Does it matter how much they make (although I know cooks making from 12,000 baht at the lowest to a stall owner who makes upwards of 65,000 per month)? I think that all that matters is that they have an alternative.

You have decried NGOs teaching women to make "trinkets." Why? It seems obvious from your posts that you think whatever NGOs are giving in training to ex-prostitutes does not constitute a viable alternative living as it does not earn enough. As I posted before, is that really a decision that you, a foreign man living here, is really qualified to make?

I have stated before that I don't know much about NGOs in Thailand. I don't know much about prostitutes here either. I am friendly with exactly one former prostitute that I know of (but as I don't ask, maybe there are others), and she was hardly forced into it. She very willingly worked her hiso Thai clientele for a number of years before marrying. So I can't give you an example of anyone "saved" by an NGO in Thailand, nor of one "saved" by a foreign man, for that matter.

However, I have seem women given an alternative by NGOs in Cambodia, and I think it would be pretty foolish to assume that Thailand is somehow immune to the same things which work in Cambodia.

If this was about Cambodia I would appreciate your viewpoint. It is apples and oranges.

[bonobo]

Several years ago in a thread here on ThaiVisa, there was a thread which mentioned attempts to close down Cambodia's Svay Pak and the rampant child prostitution there. While no one actually came out in support of buying young girls and boys, several posters did complain about NGOs sanctimoniously sticking their noses into someone else's business.

Frankly, I am always taken aback by the criticisms leveled against NGOs as a whole by posters here. Sure, there are people abusing the NGO system. Some people are in it strictly to see what they can get out of it. But most, in my opinion, are there to do what they see as good. If some get a nice salary for that, so be it.

This is wholly conjecture on my part, but to me, I wonder if the slings leveled at NGOs in general are kneejerk reactions to a fear of being targeted. Sure, child prostitution is a safe target, but what if they go after adult prostitution next? And then alcohol? And after that, smoking? What if they close down all the bars? "What I am going to do here in Thailand then?"

Like I wrote, that is wholly conjecture without a shred of evidence to lend credence to the theory, and I could be completely wrong. But there has to be some reason why NGOs, whose purported raison d'etre is to do good, are the targets of so many attacks here in the forum.

You raise many good points, but the question was can you personally identify people who have benefitted from NGO actions rather than general unsustantiated claims. We all hear about the claims, I gather the poster was wanting actually personal experience as to what is a lot of money trucked in and consumed as per all bureaucracies. As to the objectives that any but the hardest soul would describe as lauditory, seems he was questioning whether there are actaully any tangible results rather than wasted effort.

Also I note that you mention pedophilia and lack of resolve. I can assure you there is no lack of resolve in Rancid, I will happily list a few names if we are actually allowed to go after those animals. Are you up for it, no doubt more here than you imagine would follow suit as there are much more family men on TV than peds?

What lack of resolve did I mention?

The fact that the OP asked a specific question does not preclude other posts being made. Some posters here have been flaming NGOs in general, so a response to that is certainly warranted.

[chiangmaikelly]

An observation on the child prostitution issue.

When I first came to Thailand, indeed up until about 10 years ago, child prostitution (with foreigners) was common in Bangkok and Pattaya. There were areas where this was widely known to exist, indeed it was not uncommon to read these places being discussed in complaint letters to the local press - child prostitution was only very thinly hidden behind the wider adult prostitution business.

The change came when NGOs started getting involved in campaigning against child prostitution - they investigated and 'snitched' to the police, demanded that the police do something about child prostitution and raised the issue in conferences, in the press and in reports to home governments.

The result is that child prostitution is nowhere near as common in Thailand as it was a decade or two decades ago - we are told the sickos looking for this have moved onto Cambodia, but we also know the NGOs, in particular The Grey Man, have followed.

As Bonobo points out, film of the raids against this trade are not pretty watching and could very well be misrepresented, and I know some folk don't like snitchers, but if you want an example of where NGOs have made a very positive impact here in Thailand, challenging child prostitution and the institutional acceptance of child prostitution which had been allowed to exist is an almost perfect example.

Which of course might be why some don't like the subject to be discussed.

Why don't you start a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. No one was discussing that here.

You mean please don't make arguments you can't handle.

What is very clear is your attempt to avoid the clear case made in my post that NGOs have done a first rate job at forcing child prostitution in Thailand, into the political policy arena, off the streets in Thailand.

But you can't accept that because you can't accept that NGO activity could possibly be any good.

Sorry I don't know how much clearer I can be. I won't discuss child prostitution in Cambodia. If you want to start another thread OK but I won't be there. I don't know anything about it.

[manarak]

@manarak.....

and that's where the devil catches you out in Thailand Sir........and you'll be as guilty as the arresting policeman decides you are.

I wouldn't like to see you standing in a Thai court announcing loudly to the World that prostitution was legal in Thailand......I don't think it would end well for you.

What do you think?

hihihi

I'd let my lawyer speak for me, he would certainly ask the court which article of Law I'd be breaking, and the court would be embarrassed.

Interesting reading for you:

go here:

http://en.wikipedia....ion_in_Thailand

and scroll down, there are two links to a newspaper that cannot be named on this forum, with 2 articles written by two Thai lawyers on this very subject.

I don't think you could have picked a worse page to verify your argument.

Nail me with one legal text that states that prostitution is legal in Thailand and I'll stand corrected.

This can't be done because the Thai Law system is a negative system, meaning it says what is prohibited, but not what's allowed.

You asking for such thing shows that you are not very familiar with how a legal system works.

Constitutions one the other side are positive, because they affirm people's rights.

I suggest you take the time to read what Thai lawyers made the effort to publish about the subject rather than reiterating what is being said by foreign persons who probably don't even speak Thai and who are working for (foreign) organizations that have an interest in stating things the way they do.

The 1996 Act defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but no article in said Act bans prostitution.

Have a look for yourself.

Edited August 25, 2012 by manarak

[chiangmaikelly]

So ChiangMaiKelly, do you object to the fact that NGOs have played a very positive part in forcing child prostitution in Thailand into the Thai Political Policy Arena with the end result that Child Prostitution, once common in Thailand is now almost non existent and certainly pursued and prosecuted by the Thai authorities in a way it never was before the NGOs got involved?

Even if this involved a bit of snitching?!

If you want to discuss child prostitution open another thread.

[brit1984]

An observation on the child prostitution issue.

When I first came to Thailand, indeed up until about 10 years ago, child prostitution (with foreigners) was common in Bangkok and Pattaya. There were areas where this was widely known to exist, indeed it was not uncommon to read these places being discussed in complaint letters to the local press - child prostitution was only very thinly hidden behind the wider adult prostitution business.

The change came when NGOs started getting involved in campaigning against child prostitution - they investigated and 'snitched' to the police, demanded that the police do something about child prostitution and raised the issue in conferences, in the press and in reports to home governments.

The result is that child prostitution is nowhere near as common in Thailand as it was a decade or two decades ago - we are told the sickos looking for this have moved onto Cambodia, but we also know the NGOs, in particular The Grey Man, have followed.

As Bonobo points out, film of the raids against this trade are not pretty watching and could very well be misrepresented, and I know some folk don't like snitchers, but if you want an example of where NGOs have made a very positive impact here in Thailand, challenging child prostitution and the institutional acceptance of child prostitution which had been allowed to exist is an almost perfect example.

Which of course might be why some don't like the subject to be discussed.

Why don't you start a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. No one was discussing that here.

You mean please don't make arguments you can't handle.

What is very clear is your attempt to avoid the clear case made in my post that NGOs have done a first rate job at forcing child prostitution in Thailand, into the political policy arena, off the streets in Thailand.

But you can't accept that because you can't accept that NGO activity could possibly be any good.

Sorry I don't know how much clearer I can be. I won't discuss child prostitution in Cambodia. If you want to start another thread OK but I won't be there. I don't know anything about it.

Why is Cambodia so different? I am sure I have read before that 30% of prostitutes in Thailand are children. Are they are a different type of children to those in Cambodia? Or maybe you are focusing on adults and suggesting that NGO work in Cambodia is more relevant and workable because the alternative job / career opportunities in Cambodia are so wonderful in comparison to Thailand... I don't know... can you explain why Cambodia is so different?

[bonobo]

I don't have any beef with NGO's at all. Just tell me about a woman in Thailand who was saved by an NGO and how.

If this was about Cambodia I would appreciate your viewpoint. It is apples and oranges.

I get it. Just because I have witnessed NGOs succeeding in Cambodia, a country similar to Thailand in many ways, and just because I have heard about successes in India and some African countries, just because I have seen documentaries about it in northern Mexico, then it is impossible for a reasonable person to assume that just possibly the same techniques and organizations could possibly work in Thailand.

If I close my eyes, it doesn't exist, right?

Well, I did watch on television a few weeks back about an Uzbek girl who claimed to be forced into prostitution here in Bangkok. She was rescued by an NGO here. They got a police report so she could get a new passport and gave her a ticket back home. Sorry, I don't remember her name, nor do I know her personally. But with what I have observed in the world, and given what I saw on television, I would have to assume that what happened was factual, Occam's Razor and all.

[chiangmaikelly]

Meanwhile one John takes a liking to a prostitute, pays her out of the bar she works in, gives her a regular stipend, perhaps marries her, maybe even 'saves' her.

While elsewhere thousands more simply spend money buying sex and in doing so provide the economic driver behind women moving into the sex industry, by whatever means, choice, trickery or cohesion.

For the thesis to be correct, that NGOs are not doing as much good as Johns, we need to examine the positive contribution of NGOs, the negative contribution of NGOs and the positive and negative contribution of the Johns driving the sex industry.

I don't think Johns are doing any moral good. Economic good? The adult entertainment business in Thailand is larger than rice exports. So its value to the GNP is somewhere around 10%. Now what do NGO's contribute?

[theblether]

@manarak......I did look......and even here we're going to end up in an Alice in Wonderland/Hall of Mirrors debate about the legality of prostitution in Thailand.

You made a bold statement saying that prostitution was legal in Thailand.......people not familiar with Thailand ( ie guests reading this thread ) could well take that at face value and show up in the country thinking it to be true.

I am asking for you to give me unambiguous proof that prostitution is legal in Thailand, and that any man hiring a prostitutes services in Thailand is safe from arrest.

[chiangmaikelly]

I don't have any beef with NGO's at all. Just tell me about a woman in Thailand who was saved by an NGO and how.

If this was about Cambodia I would appreciate your viewpoint. It is apples and oranges.

I get it. Just because I have witnessed NGOs succeeding in Cambodia, a country similar to Thailand in many ways, and just because I have heard about successes in India and some African countries, just because I have seen documentaries about it in northern Mexico, then it is impossible for a reasonable person to assume that just possibly the same techniques and organizations could possibly work in Thailand.

If I close my eyes, it doesn't exist, right?

Well, I did watch on television a few weeks back about an Uzbek girl who claimed to be forced into prostitution here in Bangkok. She was rescued by an NGO here. They got a police report so she could get a new passport and gave her a ticket back home. Sorry, I don't remember her name, nor do I know her personally. But with what I have observed in the world, and given what I saw on television, I would have to assume that what happened was factual, Occam's Razor and all.

So you are basing your opinion on Thai NGO's on one Uzbek woman (how old was she?) and NGO's in Cambodia? You do know that a large number of Uzbek middle aged women work daily on beach road and in Walking street in Pattaya and in two Go Go clubs there?

I think this thread is about Thaland; not Cambodia or Africa or Mexico. There has to be some limit on information or we could never discuss anything.

[chiangmaikelly]

Why don't you start a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. No one was discussing that here.

You mean please don't make arguments you can't handle.

What is very clear is your attempt to avoid the clear case made in my post that NGOs have done a first rate job at forcing child prostitution in Thailand, into the political policy arena, off the streets in Thailand.

But you can't accept that because you can't accept that NGO activity could possibly be any good.

Sorry I don't know how much clearer I can be. I won't discuss child prostitution in Cambodia. If you want to start another thread OK but I won't be there. I don't know anything about it.

Why is Cambodia so different? I am sure I have read before that 30% of prostitutes in Thailand are children. Are they are a different type of children to those in Cambodia? Or maybe you are focusing on adults and suggesting that NGO work in Cambodia is more relevant and workable because the alternative job / career opportunities in Cambodia are so wonderful in comparison to Thailand... I don't know... can you explain why Cambodia is so different?

Why don't you guys open a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. You all really want to discuss it so much!

[GuestHouse]

So ChiangMaiKelly, do you object to the fact that NGOs have played a very positive part in forcing child prostitution in Thailand into the Thai Political Policy Arena with the end result that Child Prostitution, once common in Thailand is now almost non existent and certainly pursued and prosecuted by the Thai authorities in a way it never was before the NGOs got involved?

Even if this involved a bit of snitching?!

If you want to discuss child prostitution open another thread.

Off the pot ChiangMaiKelly, do you object to the fact that NGOs have played a very positive part in forcing child prostitution in Thailand into the Thai Political Policy Arena with the end result that Child Prostitution, once common in Thailand is now almost non existent and certainly pursued and prosecuted by the Thai authorities in a way it never was before the NGOs got involved?

Simple question to answer - Not a discussion of Child Prostitution, but a question to you to determine if you accept this was great work by NGOs?

[brit1984]

Meanwhile one John takes a liking to a prostitute, pays her out of the bar she works in, gives her a regular stipend, perhaps marries her, maybe even 'saves' her.

While elsewhere thousands more simply spend money buying sex and in doing so provide the economic driver behind women moving into the sex industry, by whatever means, choice, trickery or cohesion.

For the thesis to be correct, that NGOs are not doing as much good as Johns, we need to examine the positive contribution of NGOs, the negative contribution of NGOs and the positive and negative contribution of the Johns driving the sex industry.

I don't think Johns are doing any moral good. Economic good? The adult entertainment business in Thailand is larger than rice exports. So its value to the GNP is somewhere around 10%. Now what do NGO's contribute?

You could use a similar argument to celebrate those who support the opium industry in Afghanistan, or the cocaine industry in Columbia, mafia in Bulgaria, pirates / kidnappers in some African countries, etc.

With regards to prostitution in Thailand, I am not sure how supporting an industry which is so closely linked with criminal gangs, human trafficking, slavery, health and social problems could be seen as something positive.

[brit1984]

Sorry I don't know how much clearer I can be. I won't discuss child prostitution in Cambodia. If you want to start another thread OK but I won't be there. I don't know anything about it.

Why is Cambodia so different? I am sure I have read before that 30% of prostitutes in Thailand are children. Are they are a different type of children to those in Cambodia? Or maybe you are focusing on adults and suggesting that NGO work in Cambodia is more relevant and workable because the alternative job / career opportunities in Cambodia are so wonderful in comparison to Thailand... I don't know... can you explain why Cambodia is so different?

Why don't you guys open a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. You all really want to discuss it so much!

The relevance to prostitution in Cambodia (a country which borders Thailand and shares many similarities) is not that difficult to understand.

Just answer the questions we have asked.

[StreetCowboy]

...

Sorry I don't know how much clearer I can be. I won't discuss child prostitution in Cambodia. If you want to start another thread OK but I won't be there. I don't know anything about it.

Why is Cambodia so different? I am sure I have read before that 30% of prostitutes in Thailand are children. Are they are a different type of children to those in Cambodia? Or maybe you are focusing on adults and suggesting that NGO work in Cambodia is more relevant and workable because the alternative job / career opportunities in Cambodia are so wonderful in comparison to Thailand... I don't know... can you explain why Cambodia is so different?

Why don't you guys open a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. You all really want to discuss it so much!

There comes a time when trolling becomes tedious, but all credit to you, you've stuck at it.

To be honest, I don't think there's many NGOs trying to rescue the ladies from Soi 7 on Nana or Beach Road, who are mostly there through choice and economic necessity - though of course, as we discussed earlier, organisations like Cabbages and Condoms are trying to improve the lot of the rural poor, which may give them other alternatives.

So the "White Knights" that save girls from these places are saving girls who, in the girls' view and that of most NGOs, no more need saving than the ladies working on building sites or in 7-11. I don't know if there are any organisations trying to improve workplace health and safey for these ladies, in the same way that Cabbages and COndoms try to promote sexual health issues.

SC

[manarak]

I am asking for you to give me unambiguous proof that prostitution is legal in Thailand, and that any man hiring a prostitutes services in Thailand is safe from arrest.

That's easy for people who know how to read a Law.

http://www.ilo.org/d...63/E96THA01.htm

I am at a loss how I could explain it better than the law itself.

The law bans prostitution of persons under 18 years of age and paid sexual acts with such persons, but no other article of the Act imposes a punishment for the client.

So, 2 conclusions:

- prostitution for persons over 18 years of age is not banned

- the client is in any case scoot free if the prostitute he hires is older than 18.

For prostitutes the law is more restrictive.

- prostitution establishments (see the definition) are banned, as well as prostitution inside such establishment

- solicitation is required to stay civil and discreet, because solicitation in an open and shameless manner is banned by the Law.

...

but maybe we can take the other way and you point out under which article a client could possibly be charged?

Edited August 25, 2012 by manarak

[chiangmaikelly]

...

Sorry I don't know how much clearer I can be. I won't discuss child prostitution in Cambodia. If you want to start another thread OK but I won't be there. I don't know anything about it.

Why is Cambodia so different? I am sure I have read before that 30% of prostitutes in Thailand are children. Are they are a different type of children to those in Cambodia? Or maybe you are focusing on adults and suggesting that NGO work in Cambodia is more relevant and workable because the alternative job / career opportunities in Cambodia are so wonderful in comparison to Thailand... I don't know... can you explain why Cambodia is so different?

Why don't you guys open a thread about child prostitution in Cambodia. You all really want to discuss it so much!

There comes a time when trolling becomes tedious, but all credit to you, you've stuck at it.

To be honest, I don't think there's many NGOs trying to rescue the ladies from Soi 7 on Nana or Beach Road, who are mostly there through choice and economic necessity - though of course, as we discussed earlier, organisations like Cabbages and Condoms are trying to improve the lot of the rural poor, which may give them other alternatives.

So the "White Knights" that save girls from these places are saving girls who, in the girls' view and that of most NGOs, no more need saving than the ladies working on building sites or in 7-11. I don't know if there are any organisations trying to improve workplace health and safey for these ladies, in the same way that Cabbages and COndoms try to promote sexual health issues.

SC

Empower NGO is. But no one here has the guts to discuss that group because all the executives are women and actually know something about the problem and the issues involved . Nite all.

[theblether]

I am asking for you to give me unambiguous proof that prostitution is legal in Thailand, and that any man hiring a prostitutes services in Thailand is safe from arrest.

That's easy for people who know how to read a Law.

http://www.ilo.org/d...63/E96THA01.htm

I am at a loss how I could explain it better than the law itself.

The law bans prostitution of persons under 18 years of age and paid sexual acts with such persons, but no other article of the Act imposes a punishment for the client.

So, 2 conclusions:

- prostitution for persons over 18 years of age is not banned

- the client is in any case scoot free if the prostitute he hires is older than 18.

For prostitutes the law is more restrictive.

- prostitution establishments (see the definition) are banned, as well as prostitution inside such establishment

- solicitation is required to stay civil and discreet, because solicitation in an open and shameless manner is banned by the Law.

...

but maybe we can take the other way and you point out under which article a client could possibly be charged?

Nope.......not getting it. Maybe I'm a bit thick...........in essence the policy is that if you are caught with an under 18 then you are in serious trouble with the authorities. ( rightfully so. )

After that the law is essentially that as long as the inducement and sexual act are in private ( ie not in a public place, definitions, definitions ) then prostitution is legal.

Aha!!....you say I have proven you correct!!......the complication is that any type of inducement in a public place, solicitation etc is illegal. So the bar girls working in licensed bars which by definition are public places can easily be defined as soliciting if they offer you any type of inducement to engage in a sexual act in exchange for money.

Your contention that prostitution is legal is just plain wrong......and for the vast majority of people that visit Thailand for the purpose of engaging prostitutes they will find themselves meeting them in a public place, where it is expressly forbidden for any type of solicitation to take place.

The only level where you could state prostitution is legal is when it becomes a completely private issue, between consenting adults, in a private place or abode. At this point it's a moot point as there is no one there to make a complaint.

As the US military put it for years in connection with gay people serving in the military........" Don't ask, Don't tell "........while the regulations to arrest and convict where always on hand.

In effect that's the same blind eye policy that's in place in Thailand..........what you do in private is up to you, but don't be caught out in public.......as in the very places where you are liable to meet prostitutes?

It's Alice in Wonderland stuff.............

Ooops I forgot to put this link in.......I'm not a great believer in reading everything I see on the internet however I have seen this information repeated several times, and I like this format.......so maybe this will help explain the context better.

http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/legal.html

Is not quite how you believe it to be, methinks. Fines, prison sentences, just minor stuff like that eh?

Edited August 25, 2012 by theblether

[StreetCowboy]

I am asking for you to give me unambiguous proof that prostitution is legal in Thailand, and that any man hiring a prostitutes services in Thailand is safe from arrest.

That's easy for people who know how to read a Law.

http://www.ilo.org/d...63/E96THA01.htm

I am at a loss how I could explain it better than the law itself.

The law bans prostitution of persons under 18 years of age and paid sexual acts with such persons, but no other article of the Act imposes a punishment for the client.

So, 2 conclusions:

- prostitution for persons over 18 years of age is not banned

- the client is in any case scoot free if the prostitute he hires is older than 18.

For prostitutes the law is more restrictive.

- prostitution establishments (see the definition) are banned, as well as prostitution inside such establishment

- solicitation is required to stay civil and discreet, because solicitation in an open and shameless manner is banned by the Law.

...

but maybe we can take the other way and you point out under which article a client could possibly be charged?

Nope.......not getting it. Maybe I'm a bit thick...........in essence the policy is that if you are caught with an under 18 then you are in serious trouble with the authorities. ( rightfully so. )

After that the law is essentially that as long as the inducement and sexual act are in private ( ie not in a public place, definitions, definitions ) then prostitution is legal.

Aha!!....you say I have proven you correct!!......the complication is that any type of inducement in a public place, solicitation etc is illegal. So the bar girls working in licensed bars which by definition are public places can easily be defined as soliciting if they offer you any type of inducement to engage in a sexual act in exchange for money.

Your contention that prostitution is legal is just plain wrong......and for the vast majority of people that visit Thailand for the purpose of engaging prostitutes they will find themselves meeting them in a public place, where it is expressly forbidden for any type of solicitation to take place.

The only level where you could state prostitution is legal is when it becomes a completely private issue, between consenting adults, in a private place or abode. At this point it's a moot point as there is no one there to make a complaint.

As the US military put it for years in connection with gay people serving in the military........" Don't ask, Don't tell "........while the regulations to arrest and convict where always on hand.

In effect that's the same blind eye policy that's in place in Thailand..........what you do in private is up to you, but don't be caught out in public.......as in the very places where you are liable to meet prostitutes?

It's Alice in Wonderland stuff.............

Ooops I forgot to put this link in.......I'm not a great believer in reading everything I see on the internet however I have seen this information repeated several times, and I like this format.......so maybe this will help explain the context better.

http://www.sexwork.c...land/legal.html

Is not quite how you believe it to be, methinks. Fines, prison sentences, just minor stuff like that eh?

My understanding is that solicitation is illegal, but if a customer raises the subject first, then a lady is not guilty of a crime if she accedes. Same as the UK.

SC

[theblether]

I'm prepared to accept that SC, however it would be handy if someone with an in depth legal knowledge could confirm that.

The bone I am picking is the contention that prostitution is legal in Thailand, some people would read that and believe it. At best prostitution under certain conditions may be legal in Thailand, but as I said earlier your guilt will be as such as the arresting police officer decides, and trying to argue that prostitution is legal in a Thai court would not likely have a happy outcome.

The law is ambiguous, and deliberately so in my opinion.......however manarak left no space for ambiguity in his statement.

Just sayin'................and I think I've said enough.

.

Edited August 25, 2012 by theblether

[elliss]

a scientific study [ by an academic, er er ] is impossible, because there are so many variables involved .

however having only been in thailand,on and off some sixteen years or so, this is the way i see it

occasional raids by the police NGO, look good in the press, and give sponsors of these agencies an incentive to contibute more , to support the NGO agencies.

so what happens to these girls that have been rescued .

many are back in the bars , secret houses , or just hanging around thai pai gate in chiang mai , well into the early hours.

those girls that wish to be rescued , where do they end up ?. if they are lucky they can have a job working six days on twelve hours a day , for a japanese or chinese company in rayong , for 7-8000 bht a mounth. slave labour .

enter the farang , more commonly known as sexpat . most young thai girls , if they are attractive enough are lured to the bars by the mamsams contacts , being told of the success stories of other thai girls who have met a good farang in the bar . the tale unfolds a car and house are bought ,by the farang the girls family are taken care of .

sounds familiar ,ouch .

so without the benefeit of scientific research , i would conclude that most thai girls , would opt for horizonal

activity as opposed to working in a factory , or the rice fields .

as they progress along the learing curves, being lied to by so called rich farangs and often abused by, their customers .

they may well wise up , yes we have all heard it , i not want young man . they opt for the old fart with a secure pension or two .

from both of us

good nigh

.

Edited August 25, 2012 by elliss

[Zatoichi]

Absurd? my last paragraph;

"Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself? "

Absurd? Really...yall lost me. I referred the practice as NOBLE, and Charitable. I simply said it's not for me personally because I don't feel the need, nor, knowing myself, would I find it particularly prudent, to marry someone with kids. I'm more charitable than some, and less than others, however I think charity is something that you give your time and money too at least and at best incorporate it into your way of life. However, It should not be the basis of a marriage. How many of you would want a wife who's with you primarily because she took pity on you? Wouldn't you want better? Wouldn't anyone?

I say if you wanna be charitible help them out with some money, and keep your cock in your pants.

[Zatoichi]

Oh and as for the Bar girls. I'm not critical I'm realistic. I don't hate em. Infact I think they're generally some of the over all best in their profession, world wide, hands down. And I'm grateful to have enjoyed scores of them throughout the better parts of my twenties living in Pattaya. Thank you sweet Pattaya hookers, I forgot your names but never the smiles.

But like I said, you learn some really useful life lessons early on. "Put things back were you found them."

A place for everything and everything in it's place.

Play with that old wisdom at your own peril.

[StreetCowboy]

Oh and as for the Bar girls. I'm not critical I'm realistic. I don't hate em. Infact I think they're generally some of the over all best in their profession, world wide, hands down. And I'm grateful to have enjoyed scores of them throughout the better parts of my twenties living in Pattaya. Thank you sweet Pattaya hookers, I forgot your names but never the smiles.

But like I said, you learn some really useful life lessons early on. "Put things back were you found them."

A place for everything and everything in it's place.

Play with that old wisdom at your own peril.

So are you saying I should send my wife back to university?

And that I should have left her in the Old Country, and each time I moved, taken a new wife for the duration of my stay there?

SC

[Zatoichi]

Oh and as for the Bar girls. I'm not critical I'm realistic. I don't hate em. Infact I think they're generally some of the over all best in their profession, world wide, hands down. And I'm grateful to have enjoyed scores of them throughout the better parts of my twenties living in Pattaya. Thank you sweet Pattaya hookers, I forgot your names but never the smiles.

But like I said, you learn some really useful life lessons early on. "Put things back were you found them."

A place for everything and everything in it's place.

Play with that old wisdom at your own peril.

So are you saying I should send my wife back to university?

And that I should have left her in the Old Country, and each time I moved, taken a new wife for the duration of my stay there?

SC

Do you really need that spelled out for you?

Simply put, if you found her in a good respectable place in life, endeavoring for better, and that's what you want to offer, pick her up and make the best of it as a team. If you found her in a bar looking for the next customer, and that's what you wanna offer her, go for it!

Just don't get the two mixed up unless you want someone to get hurt.

Simple as that really.

[StreetCowboy]

Oh and as for the Bar girls. I'm not critical I'm realistic. I don't hate em. Infact I think they're generally some of the over all best in their profession, world wide, hands down. And I'm grateful to have enjoyed scores of them throughout the better parts of my twenties living in Pattaya. Thank you sweet Pattaya hookers, I forgot your names but never the smiles.

But like I said, you learn some really useful life lessons early on. "Put things back were you found them."

A place for everything and everything in it's place.

Play with that old wisdom at your own peril.

So are you saying I should send my wife back to university?

And that I should have left her in the Old Country, and each time I moved, taken a new wife for the duration of my stay there?

SC

Do you really need that spelled out for you?

Simply put, if you found her in a good respectable place in life, endeavoring for better, and that's what you want to offer, pick her up and make the best of it as a team. If you found her in a bar looking for the next customer, and that's what you wanna offer her, go for it!

Just don't get the two mixed up unless you want someone to get hurt.

Simple as that really.

What if they met her working away from home trying to earn money to put food on the table for her family?

I'm not sure I would really like to characterise someone solely by their trade. I am sure that there may be honest builders or lawyers, or hard-working security guards, or straight priests, but such deviance from stereotype does not make for entertaining stories nor allow us to exercise our prejudices to the full

SC

[theblether]

Absurd? my last paragraph;

"Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself? "

Absurd? Really...yall lost me. I referred the practice as NOBLE, and Charitable. I simply said it's not for me personally because I don't feel the need, nor, knowing myself, would I find it particularly prudent, to marry someone with kids. I'm more charitable than some, and less than others, however I think charity is something that you give your time and money too at least and at best incorporate it into your way of life. However, It should not be the basis of a marriage. How many of you would want a wife who's with you primarily because she took pity on you? Wouldn't you want better? Wouldn't anyone?

I say if you wanna be charitible help them out with some money, and keep your cock in your pants.

Absurd? my last paragraph;

"Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself? "

Absurd? Really...yall lost me. I referred the practice as NOBLE, and Charitable. I simply said it's not for me personally because I don't feel the need, nor, knowing myself, would I find it particularly prudent, to marry someone with kids. I'm more charitable than some, and less than others, however I think charity is something that you give your time and money too at least and at best incorporate it into your way of life. However, It should not be the basis of a marriage. How many of you would want a wife who's with you primarily because she took pity on you? Wouldn't you want better? Wouldn't anyone?

I say if you wanna be charitible help them out with some money, and keep your cock in your pants.

Garbage.

This charity talk is pathetic.......and your making yourself look even more absurd with your narrow mindedness.

How old are you by the way?

[theblether]

@StreetCowboy

I don't think this gentleman has mastered the art of absorbing written matter........maybe I'll give him a helping hand. Hmmm, OK then.........

@ Zatoichi.....the clue is in this statement......see if you can work it out.

So are you saying I should send my wife back to university?

And that I should have left her in the Old Country

I narrowed it down for you to make it a little bit easier.

[Zatoichi]

Absurd? my last paragraph;

"Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself? "

Absurd? Really...yall lost me. I referred the practice as NOBLE, and Charitable. I simply said it's not for me personally because I don't feel the need, nor, knowing myself, would I find it particularly prudent, to marry someone with kids. I'm more charitable than some, and less than others, however I think charity is something that you give your time and money too at least and at best incorporate it into your way of life. However, It should not be the basis of a marriage. How many of you would want a wife who's with you primarily because she took pity on you? Wouldn't you want better? Wouldn't anyone?

I say if you wanna be charitible help them out with some money, and keep your cock in your pants.

Absurd? my last paragraph;

"Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself? "

Absurd? Really...yall lost me. I referred the practice as NOBLE, and Charitable. I simply said it's not for me personally because I don't feel the need, nor, knowing myself, would I find it particularly prudent, to marry someone with kids. I'm more charitable than some, and less than others, however I think charity is something that you give your time and money too at least and at best incorporate it into your way of life. However, It should not be the basis of a marriage. How many of you would want a wife who's with you primarily because she took pity on you? Wouldn't you want better? Wouldn't anyone?

I say if you wanna be charitible help them out with some money, and keep your cock in your pants.

Garbage.

This charity talk is pathetic.......and your making yourself look even more absurd with your narrow mindedness.

How old are you by the way?

It's easy to dismiss my comments as "garbage" but at least I made a effort to ask you what your on about in an attempt to understand where your coming from. But all I get from you is this kinda nonsense.

Whatever man, if you can't muster anything more intelligent, and cognizant to say than that, then I'm gonna be hard pressed to find a "F" to give about your opinion.

And I'm 37.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Zatoichi