F1fanatic Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Like the OP, I think that far more Western men 'help' those women selling their services for money than any organisation. My ex-husband paid for his g/f to receive proper training as a masseuse - giving her a skill from which she is able to gain employment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Don't spend too much time looking when you can simply make up stuff to support your point of view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Don't spend too much time looking when you can simply make up stuff to support your point of view “In Thailand men who are victims of trafficking and staying in shelters can go out and get work while they wait for their cases but we cannot let these women out. These women are weaker and more vulnerable than men to being tricked again so instead they are able to stay inside and we bring the work to them or they can make handicrafts. ” Psychologist, Baan Kredtrakarn I couldn't make this stuff up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Don't spend too much time looking when you can simply make up stuff to support your point of view How about this one RAID AND RESCUE 1 - M Karaoke Chiang Mai Meanwhile at the karaoke bar at 12.30am, 50 uniformed armed police coordinated by theBangkok Counter Human Trafficking Unit (CTU), raided the bar, running in the doors to cut off the escape and physically apprehend the eight women working there. There were also NGO’ staff,government welfare officers, immigration officials and people taking photos. The police searched the bar confiscating the women’s bags, telephones, clothes and makeup.Police also searched the women’s accommodation nearby, upturning the whole room looking for drugs or detained women which they did not find. The three young Akkha men were arrested andeight women apprehended. They were loaded onto the police trucks and taken to the police station in Chiang Mai. The 13 women were detained in a social welfare home outside of Chiang Mai city. All 13 had staunchly denied they had been trafficked and all claimed to be over 18 yearsold. Accordingly they were forced to have dental examinations, with four women also having bonex-rays in an attempt to prove they were minors. The women had no phones, no contact withfamily or friends, were not allowed to leave and were interviewed by NGO staff, again all with no translation provided. Hit and Run: The Impact of Anti Trafficking - Displaying items by tag Hit and Run: The Impact of Anti Trafficking - Displaying items by tag Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliss Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) CMKelly , expect the hotels to be fully booked in CM,with pervies. TAT , will be ever so pleased .. i was in CM , 2 years ago , not my scene, i dont buy candy . Edited August 25, 2012 by elliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 So no evidence whatsoever of NGOs treating trafficked women like drug smugglers. Though a great deal of effort being put into fudging the issue to avoid admitting the statement is groundless nonsense. A retraction would be sensible, but further compounding the errors in the argument with more fudged thinking only serves to undermine the veracity and credibility of the claims. So please do continue. This is a quote from a rescued women with the Empower group, "We have been spied on, arrested, cut off from our families, had our savings confiscated, interrogated, imprisoned and placed into the hands of the men with guns, in order for them to send us home... all in the name of “protection against trafficking”. It’s rubbing salt into the wound that this is called helping us. We are grateful for those who are genuinely concerned with our welfare ... but we ask you to listen to us and think in new ways. After “raid or rescue” we will walk the same path again, facing the same dangers at the same border crossings. Just like the women fighting to be educated, fighting to vote, fighting to participate in politics, fighting to be independent, fighting to work, to love, to live safely... we will not stay in the cage society has made for us, we will dare to keep crossing the lines." Do you really want some more? Hit and Run: The Impact of Anti Trafficking - Displaying items by tag A very good quotation from the excellent NGO empower, in which reference is made to the treatment of women by the formal Government Authorities - So an NGO advocating sex workers rights and campaigning against the treatment sex workers receive from 'officialdom'. Not evidence at all of NGOs treating trafficked women as drug smugglers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommoPhysicist Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) My ex-husband paid for his g/f to receive proper training as a masseuse - giving her a skill from which she is able to gain employment. At least your story has a happy ending! Edited August 25, 2012 by TommoPhysicist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Again no mention of being treated like a drug smuggler. Keep digging if you feel you can dig yourself out of the baseless statement you made. So what did I write? "The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such." From the Hit and run report quoted above. Women are apprehended and taken to police stations the same as other raids. Reporters are given free range to photograph us the same as other raids. Our research shows that women have no idea what the raid is for, why they have been apprehended or what their rights are. We are eventually deported but unlike other deportations, we sometimes wait a year or more and rescues result in official deportations where we are handed over to our home governments. It appears shelters are commonly used for detainment purposes despite the fact that it is illegal, violates the human rights of the women being held and causes great distress for the women and for shelter staff. In its evangelistic aim to save women and girls, the rescue industry promotes rehabilitation. Sex workers spend years detained in State or non-government shelters, until they are deemed to be ‘reformed’ and if their families are judged to be adequate and they are no longer at risk of being a ‘prostitute’ they are released. Hit and Run: The Impact of Anti Trafficking - Displaying items by tag So I wrote before, "How many NGO's are involved in stopping the drug trade in Thailand? I don't think many. But a lot of the NGO's in Thailand use the same tactics to stop trafficking. I think therein lies the problem." Does it make sense yet. The NGO's are treating the women like drug criminals and locking them up. You need to read the links you are posting BEFORE you post. Once again you have linked to the excellent work being done by Empower (an NGO working in Thailand) the report you have linked to addresses 'The impact of anti trafficking policy and practice onSex Worker’s Human Rights in Thailand' Nowhere in any of the posts you have made (other than your own unfounded accusations) is there any evidence of trafficked women being treated like drug smugglers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Having dealt with the plus and minus sides of NGOs (of which no sensible person denies there are two sides). Can we now address the plus and minus sides of the sexpats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 My friends sister works as an NGO. in Africa for $1600 a month. Surely it should just cover expenses such as food and accommodation and a minimum wage to buy basics? I have travelled extensively in Africa and the biggest <deleted> I met were some American doctors sat next to me on the flight over. Clearly going over to use their expertise but I got the feeling not to help but so they could go back to America and live off the story of 'helping in Africa' at dinner parties for the next 30 years. Most people don't help because they care. It's so they can return home and profane the 'holier than thou' attitude to all around them. You can see them wriggling in their seats with glee at the forthcoming question of what they do and the following praise heaped upon them. I put NGO's in with the religious. They all want to be seen as good people doing good deeds but what they are after is praise and preferential treatment not to genuinely help others. Some admittedly are there to help but they are in the minority I feel. Also how many of these little helpers have you seen going on about how poor the people they help are and how we should all strive to consume less and contribute more followed by pulling out the ubiquitous expensive iphone, mac book or ipad? One of the most offensive posts I have read in quite some time. NGOs such as Medicins sans Frontieres provide medical care in regions where no one will go. Veterinarians without borders do a wonderful job. The fact of the matter is that these groups do not expect sex in return for helping anyone. The next time there is an outbreak of an infectious disease and the NGOs respond, tell them to stop and you can give your reasons provided above. I have met plenty of medical personnel that have volunteered and no one ever brags about it. Instead they say they wish they could have done more or discuss how appreciative people were. The NGO's that focus on the sexploitation trade aren't there to save anyone. Their goal is to provide economic alternatives so people are not compelled to sell their bodies so that they can eat. See Bonobo's more definitive explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) So no evidence whatsoever of NGOs treating trafficked women like drug smugglers. Though a great deal of effort being put into fudging the issue to avoid admitting the statement is groundless nonsense. A retraction would be sensible, but further compounding the errors in the argument with more fudged thinking only serves to undermine the veracity and credibility of the claims. So please do continue. This is a quote from a rescued women with the Empower group, "We have been spied on, arrested, cut off from our families, had our savings confiscated, interrogated, imprisoned and placed into the hands of the men with guns, in order for them to send us home... all in the name of “protection against trafficking”. It’s rubbing salt into the wound that this is called helping us. We are grateful for those who are genuinely concerned with our welfare ... but we ask you to listen to us and think in new ways. After “raid or rescue” we will walk the same path again, facing the same dangers at the same border crossings. Just like the women fighting to be educated, fighting to vote, fighting to participate in politics, fighting to be independent, fighting to work, to love, to live safely... we will not stay in the cage society has made for us, we will dare to keep crossing the lines." Do you really want some more? Hit and Run: The Impact of Anti Trafficking - Displaying items by tag A very good quotation from the excellent NGO empower, in which reference is made to the treatment of women by the formal Government Authorities - So an NGO advocating sex workers rights and campaigning against the treatment sex workers receive from 'officialdom'. Not evidence at all of NGOs treating trafficked women as drug smugglers. You didn't see this? “There were also NGO’ staff,government welfare officers, immigration officials and people taking photos.” They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). Ngo's helped lock the women up like they would criminals. They were arrested like they would arrest drug dealers, searching and so on. If you read the study they mention a number of other NGO's who use police like raid tactics to arrest trafficked women. Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 My friends sister works as an NGO. in Africa for $1600 a month. Surely it should just cover expenses such as food and accommodation and a minimum wage to buy basics? I have travelled extensively in Africa and the biggest <deleted> I met were some American doctors sat next to me on the flight over. Clearly going over to use their expertise but I got the feeling not to help but so they could go back to America and live off the story of 'helping in Africa' at dinner parties for the next 30 years. Most people don't help because they care. It's so they can return home and profane the 'holier than thou' attitude to all around them. You can see them wriggling in their seats with glee at the forthcoming question of what they do and the following praise heaped upon them. I put NGO's in with the religious. They all want to be seen as good people doing good deeds but what they are after is praise and preferential treatment not to genuinely help others. Some admittedly are there to help but they are in the minority I feel. Also how many of these little helpers have you seen going on about how poor the people they help are and how we should all strive to consume less and contribute more followed by pulling out the ubiquitous expensive iphone, mac book or ipad? One of the most offensive posts I have read in quite some time. NGOs such as Medicins sans Frontieres provide medical care in regions where no one will go. Veterinarians without borders do a wonderful job. The fact of the matter is that these groups do not expect sex in return for helping anyone. The next time there is an outbreak of an infectious disease and the NGOs respond, tell them to stop and you can give your reasons provided above. I have met plenty of medical personnel that have volunteered and no one ever brags about it. Instead they say they wish they could have done more or discuss how appreciative people were. The NGO's that focus on the sexploitation trade aren't there to save anyone. Their goal is to provide economic alternatives so people are not compelled to sell their bodies so that they can eat. See Bonobo's more definitive explanation. Geri and GH should combine your posts. That is the topic. What has any NGO done to provide an economic alternative to people who sell their bodies? Best I can see is they teach them how to make trinkets or sew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Geri and GH should combine your posts. That is the topic. What has any NGO done to provide an economic alternative to people who sell their bodies? Best I can see is they teach them how to make trinkets or sew. You yourself have provided links to one of the most well known and respected NGO's working with sex workers in Thailand (Empower) - You should read up on their website, they don't need anyone here to testify on their behalf. So having failed miserably to provide any evidence of trafficked women being treated like drug smugglers by the NGOs - are you ready to tackle the pros and cons of the involvement of sexpats in this trade? That is the other half of the OP.... lest you forgot?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 You didn't see this? “There were also NGO’ staff,government welfare officers, immigration officials and people taking photos.” They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). Ngo's helped lock the women up like they would criminals. They were arrested like they would arrest drug dealers, searching and so on. If you read the study they mention a number of other NGO's who use police like raid tactics to arrest trafficked women. Read the report - POLICE make Raids, POLICE make arrests - Not NGOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 So for every Sexpat that 'saves' a woman from the sex industry, how many women do you think enter the industry as a result of the money being poured in by Sexpats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Geri and GH should combine your posts. That is the topic. What has any NGO done to provide an economic alternative to people who sell their bodies? Best I can see is they teach them how to make trinkets or sew. You yourself have provided links to one of the most well known and respected NGO's working with sex workers in Thailand (Empower) - You should read up on their website, they don't need anyone here to testify on their behalf. So having failed miserably to provide any evidence of trafficked women being treated like drug smugglers by the NGOs - are you ready to tackle the pros and cons of the involvement of sexpats in this trade? That is the other half of the OP.... lest you forgot?! I think my posts have demonstrated without a doubt that trafficked women are treated like criminals/drug dealers. They are arrested by men with guns and have their rooms searched and they are confined in jails with no trial. But if you think that is normal NGO procedure, up to you. I have seen no evidence that any NGO with the exception of empower does anything for the women. Perhaps you could educate me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 You didn't see this? “There were also NGO’ staff,government welfare officers, immigration officials and people taking photos.” They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). Ngo's helped lock the women up like they would criminals. They were arrested like they would arrest drug dealers, searching and so on. If you read the study they mention a number of other NGO's who use police like raid tactics to arrest trafficked women. Read the report - POLICE make Raids, POLICE make arrests - Not NGOs. Perhaps instead of the police, they should send in a crack squad of fat, aging, bald ex-special forces blokes from Pattaya I might start a charity collecting money to recruit just such a team; I have a few mates back in Scotland who would fit the bill... SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 You didn't see this? “There were also NGO’ staff,government welfare officers, immigration officials and people taking photos.” They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). Ngo's helped lock the women up like they would criminals. They were arrested like they would arrest drug dealers, searching and so on. If you read the study they mention a number of other NGO's who use police like raid tactics to arrest trafficked women. Read the report - POLICE make Raids, POLICE make arrests - Not NGOs. Are you being dense on purpose? Traffcord is an NGO. The NGO staff were taking pictures!! The police make raids with the NGO's!! Not alone. The NGO's do the undercover work and then the cops move in. You didn't know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I think my posts have demonstrated without a doubt that trafficked women are treated like criminals/drug dealers. They are arrested by men with guns and have their rooms searched and they are confined in jails with no trial. But if you think that is normal NGO procedure, up to you. I have seen no evidence that any NGO with the exception of empower does anything for the women. Perhaps you could educate me. You have not produced any statement or evidence that NGOs arrest anyone, that NGOs carry guns, that NGOs treat anyone like criminals. You HAVE produced evidence that the POLICE arrest Trafficked women, that the POLICE raid places carrying guns (but you can't blame them for the guns at this end of the economy) and that the POLICE treat people like criminals - Non of which is any evidence of NGOs doing any of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Are you being dense on purpose? Traffcord is an NGO. The NGO staff were taking pictures!! The police make raids with the NGO's!! Not alone. The NGO's do the undercover work and then the cops move in. You didn't know this? Yes, I know this - but it is the POLICE who abuse people's rights, not the NGOs. Again you have no evidence that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers ...... but do keep repeating your unfounded accusations if it makes you feel good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 You didn't see this? “There were also NGO’ staff,government welfare officers, immigration officials and people taking photos.” They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). Ngo's helped lock the women up like they would criminals. They were arrested like they would arrest drug dealers, searching and so on. If you read the study they mention a number of other NGO's who use police like raid tactics to arrest trafficked women. Read the report - POLICE make Raids, POLICE make arrests - Not NGOs. Perhaps instead of the police, they should send in a crack squad of fat, aging, bald ex-special forces blokes from Pattaya I might start a charity collecting money to recruit just such a team; I have a few mates back in Scotland who would fit the bill... SC It has been done try google " An Australian charity that promotes its use of former soldiers and police in daring missions to rescue victims of sex trafficking has been accused ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Are you being dense on purpose? Traffcord is an NGO. The NGO staff were taking pictures!! The police make raids with the NGO's!! Not alone. The NGO's do the undercover work and then the cops move in. You didn't know this? Yes, I know this - but it is the POLICE who abuse people's rights, not the NGOs. Again you have no evidence that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers ...... but do keep repeating your unfounded accusations if it makes you feel good. A snitch is a snitch. What is the Brit term for snitch? When the NGO informant goes in and makes a deal with the trafficked women what does that remind you of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Are you being dense on purpose? Traffcord is an NGO. The NGO staff were taking pictures!! The police make raids with the NGO's!! Not alone. The NGO's do the undercover work and then the cops move in. You didn't know this? Yes, I know this - but it is the POLICE who abuse people's rights, not the NGOs. Again you have no evidence that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers ...... but do keep repeating your unfounded accusations if it makes you feel good. I think he's holding the NGOs responsible for the action of the police that they accompany. Perhaps also implying that if it were not for NGO pressure, the raids may not have taken place, and the ladies could have continued working in peace, to the benefit of themselves and their employers. Their employers, anyway. Good news does not make such good headlines, so unfortunately, we don't get any news of the successes of the NGOs; unless we make the effort to look for it, at their websites. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetCowboy Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 You didn't see this? “There were also NGO’ staff,government welfare officers, immigration officials and people taking photos.” They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). Ngo's helped lock the women up like they would criminals. They were arrested like they would arrest drug dealers, searching and so on. If you read the study they mention a number of other NGO's who use police like raid tactics to arrest trafficked women. Read the report - POLICE make Raids, POLICE make arrests - Not NGOs. Perhaps instead of the police, they should send in a crack squad of fat, aging, bald ex-special forces blokes from Pattaya I might start a charity collecting money to recruit just such a team; I have a few mates back in Scotland who would fit the bill... SC It has been done try google " An Australian charity that promotes its use of former soldiers and police in daring missions to rescue victims of sex trafficking has been accused ... I was going to concentrate on the ageing, fat, balding part of the specification. From the OP, and our usual stereotypes, that would be the main criteria, and they could become ex-SAS once they got to Thailand, same as the chaps in Pattaya. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Now if you want to make the argument (which is supported by Empower's report) that two of the NGOs have demonstrated crass naivety in their approach to their work and their subsequent actions. Then yes I would agree. But to push that out to claim, as CMKelly does that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers then clearly the claim is unfounded. Maybe its that snitching bit CMK objects to, people spoiling the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brit1984 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Are you being dense on purpose? Traffcord is an NGO. The NGO staff were taking pictures!! The police make raids with the NGO's!! Not alone. The NGO's do the undercover work and then the cops move in. You didn't know this? Yes, I know this - but it is the POLICE who abuse people's rights, not the NGOs. Again you have no evidence that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers ...... but do keep repeating your unfounded accusations if it makes you feel good. A snitch is a snitch. What is the Brit term for snitch? When the NGO informant goes in and makes a deal with the trafficked women what does that remind you of? Efforts to curb serious criminal activity are good. Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Now if you want to make the argument (which is supported by Empower's report) that two of the NGOs have demonstrated crass naivety in their approach to their work and their subsequent actions. Then yes I would agree. But to push that out to claim, as CMKelly does that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers then clearly the claim is unfounded. Maybe its that snitching bit CMK objects to, people spoiling the fun. I realize I am beating a dead horse but to arrest drug dealers one uses a snitch simply another brick in the wall of similarity between the way criminals are treated and trafficked women. But all of that aside just tell me how NGO's are going to help women get out of the sex trade with the old white sex pats? I think that is the point of the whole thread anyway. What can an NGO do specifically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brit1984 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Now if you want to make the argument (which is supported by Empower's report) that two of the NGOs have demonstrated crass naivety in their approach to their work and their subsequent actions. Then yes I would agree. But to push that out to claim, as CMKelly does that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers then clearly the claim is unfounded. Maybe its that snitching bit CMK objects to, people spoiling the fun. I realize I am beating a dead horse but to arrest drug dealers one uses a snitch simply another brick in the wall of similarity between the way criminals are treated and trafficked women. But all of that aside just tell me how NGO's are going to help women get out of the sex trade with the old white sex pats? I think that is the point of the whole thread anyway. What can an NGO do specifically? NGOs provide food and accommodation (and more) for all former sex workers who ask for it. Sex-tourists / sex-pats provide the same (or similar) in return for sex (and/or other services). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Now if you want to make the argument (which is supported by Empower's report) that two of the NGOs have demonstrated crass naivety in their approach to their work and their subsequent actions. Then yes I would agree. But to push that out to claim, as CMKelly does that the NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers then clearly the claim is unfounded. Maybe its that snitching bit CMK objects to, people spoiling the fun. I realize I am beating a dead horse but to arrest drug dealers one uses a snitch simply another brick in the wall of similarity between the way criminals are treated and trafficked women. But all of that aside just tell me how NGO's are going to help women get out of the sex trade with the old white sex pats? I think that is the point of the whole thread anyway. What can an NGO do specifically? NGOs provide food and accommodation (and more) for all former sex workers who ask for it. Sex-tourists / sex-pats provide the same (or similar) in return for sex (and/or other services). How about supporting the family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblether Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 If I may interrupt this debate........can someone define a sex pat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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