Ngo Or Sexpat

[GuestHouse]

I wonder if the OP, and a few others here, even consider the long term impact of foreign men turning up in Thailand and doling out cash to the local women and their families.

We see enough evidence of the dependancy this largesse creates here on TV, but what are the wider impacts where the 'easy farang husband' option has become so ingrained in certain parts (or indeed geographical parts) of Thailand and its culture?

[chiangmaikelly]

I wonder if the OP, and a few others here, even consider the long term impact of foreign men turning up in Thailand and doling out cash to the local women and their families.

We see enough evidence of the dependancy this largesse creates here on TV, but what are the wider impacts where the 'easy farang husband' option has become so ingrained in certain parts (or indeed geographical parts) of Thailand and its culture?

If you follow the Army it was Germany and Japan in the 1940's, Korea in the 1950's and Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, Philippines and Singapore in the 1960's. Thailand and the Philippines seem to be unique in their ability to hold on to this market long term.

[Johpa]

Yes, I know a highland village girl who was rescued from a brothel in a large city by an NGO. She never saw a single farang client in her two years being forced to work. What you do not seem to understand is that only about 10% of the women in "the trade" work as freelancers in the bars. There is another far larger and far darker world of forced prostitution out there that most people on Thai Visa never see because they see so little from their bar stools, condos, or what euphemistically they call "moobaans".

[boisian]

Also how many of these little helpers have you seen going on about how poor the people they help are and how we should all strive to consume less and contribute more followed by pulling out the ubiquitous expensive iphone, mac book or ipad?

Is that the same as the poor bar girl talking about she works bar to take care of her family and then a phone rings and she pulls out her new Iphone 4s....

OUCH!!!!!! that really hit a raw nerve..... can't decide if I think that was a really funny comment, or I resent it. Prolly both

[Zatoichi]

NGO's - Can save people who are in a situation they WANT to be saved from. The reason you don't see them save a bunch of hookers from the bar is because most whores choose to turn tricks rather than to work a lower paying, harder job. But the jobs ARE available, check out a construction site next time you see one, and look at how many women are out there doing the same work as men. Tough, dirty, hard work, but they keep their dignity intact. How can you rescue someone who doesn't have the integrity to care, and never did?

Wifeing Bargirls - Up too you, if a man feels like he wants to marry a women hundreds or thousands of men screwed for a few pennies, zipped up walked out and forgot her name. Then that's on them. I don't think they personally should be discriminated against. However they should not expect the rest of the world to suddenly see his wife for anything other than a former whore that married a customer.

Personally I would not marry a hooker. I learned at a young age to put things back were I found them. Nuff Said.

Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself?

[Zatoichi]

Yes, I know a highland village girl who was rescued from a brothel in a large city by an NGO. She never saw a single farang client in her two years being forced to work. What you do not seem to understand is that only about 10% of the women in "the trade" work as freelancers in the bars. There is another far larger and far darker world of forced prostitution out there that most people on Thai Visa never see because they see so little from their bar stools, condos, or what euphemistically they call "moobaans".

Now see these are the women that need rescuing. But these aren't whores, they are Slaves forced to have sex with people. They are Victims of a ring of nasty, scum of the earth individuals, A world away from someone who chooses that profession on their own.

[Bagwan]

NGO's - Can save people who are in a situation they WANT to be saved from. The reason you don't see them save a bunch of hookers from the bar is because most whores choose to turn tricks rather than to work a lower paying, harder job. But the jobs ARE available, check out a construction site next time you see one, and look at how many women are out there doing the same work as men. Tough, dirty, hard work, but they keep their dignity intact. How can you rescue someone who doesn't have the integrity to care, and never did?

Wifeing Bargirls - Up too you, if a man feels like he wants to marry a women hundreds or thousands of men screwed for a few pennies, zipped up walked out and forgot her name. Then that's on them. I don't think they personally should be discriminated against. However they should not expect the rest of the world to suddenly see his wife for anything other than a former whore that married a customer.

Personally I would not marry a hooker. I learned at a young age to put things back were I found them. Nuff Said.

Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself?

I wouldn't take issue with you until I read your last paragraph. Obviously you lack any measure of Christian charity and if your life is predicated in taking care of number one you may well live to regret it in your later years. My wife who has never been near the bar trade, and still will not enter a bar with me, had a life expectancy of 3 months according to the doctor I took her to when we first got together. I was asked if I was going to pay the medical bills and was told that if I didn't the hospital would discharge her. If her life was to be saved I was her only option. She had struggled against all odds for the previous 10 years after being abandoned by her 'husband',often going without food as she could afford to buy only enough for her 2 kids. I couldn't live with myself thinking of her dying and leaving her orphan children looking into no future at all. All that it took to turn the situation around and to ensure that I enjoyed peace of mind was money.

Now she is in perfect health and a joy to be with. Bringing up her kids wasn't easy but I managed to inject some self discipline and education into them and am proud of what they have become. The investment that as their parent I have made in them, and I'm not talking money, has been repaid many times over. Now we are grandparents and I just love the experience. I am most fortunate to be surrounded by a loving and caring family. A simple act of kindness opened the door to my life having some meaning and my reward has been knowing that I was the vehicle that brought significant and lasting change to their lives.

I do not seek the approbation of others over the decision that I made and it is enough for me to know that at a critical moment in several lives, including my own, I did the right and proper thing. I do not know whether my wife or I got the best of the bargain, but I suspect that it is probably me. She, and others, may think that I saved her life; I know that she has saved mine. I have little doubt that there are other farangs who could tell of a similar story where an act of compassion immeasurably enriched their lives.

[Johpa]

Now see these are the women that need rescuing. But these aren't whores, they are Slaves forced to have sex with people. They are Victims of a ring of nasty, scum of the earth individuals, A world away from someone who chooses that profession on their own.

You are far, far too judgmental on the bar girls. Most have had few options, a structural result of the Thai economy which has always found ways to provide labor to one of the most profitable businesses in Thailand, a country where cash business rules politics. Or as the title of the book by Achaan Pasuk clearly points out: Guns, Girls, Gambling, Ganja:Thailand's illegal economy and Public Policy. So there is a continuum from the freelance bar girls to the slaves, but all are slaves to the system established by the Sino-Thai elite.

"There must be some way out of here" said the joker to the thief

"There's too much confusion", I can't get no relief

Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth

None of them along the line know what any of it is worth.

[Johnniey]

NGO's - Can save people who are in a situation they WANT to be saved from. The reason you don't see them save a bunch of hookers from the bar is because most whores choose to turn tricks rather than to work a lower paying, harder job. But the jobs ARE available, check out a construction site next time you see one, and look at how many women are out there doing the same work as men. Tough, dirty, hard work, but they keep their dignity intact. How can you rescue someone who doesn't have the integrity to care, and never did?

Wifeing Bargirls - Up too you, if a man feels like he wants to marry a women hundreds or thousands of men screwed for a few pennies, zipped up walked out and forgot her name. Then that's on them. I don't think they personally should be discriminated against. However they should not expect the rest of the world to suddenly see his wife for anything other than a former whore that married a customer.

Personally I would not marry a hooker. I learned at a young age to put things back were I found them. Nuff Said.

Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself?

Very wise post.

[DrTuner]

Can't answer this one either. NGO workers avoid me like Ebola and frankly the feeling is mutual. Last time I visited Vatican I had the distinct feeling of being followed through a snipers telescope.

[poanoi]

What's "NGO" ?

yes, i know ngoo = snake,

but is this an acronym for Next Generation Officer or something else ?

[DrTuner]

Non Governmental Organisation. ie. doogodie freelancers.

[theblether]

NGO's - Can save people who are in a situation they WANT to be saved from. The reason you don't see them save a bunch of hookers from the bar is because most whores choose to turn tricks rather than to work a lower paying, harder job. But the jobs ARE available, check out a construction site next time you see one, and look at how many women are out there doing the same work as men. Tough, dirty, hard work, but they keep their dignity intact. How can you rescue someone who doesn't have the integrity to care, and never did?

Wifeing Bargirls - Up too you, if a man feels like he wants to marry a women hundreds or thousands of men screwed for a few pennies, zipped up walked out and forgot her name. Then that's on them. I don't think they personally should be discriminated against. However they should not expect the rest of the world to suddenly see his wife for anything other than a former whore that married a customer.

Personally I would not marry a hooker. I learned at a young age to put things back were I found them. Nuff Said.

Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself?

Very wise post.

@Zatoichi

That last paragraph is quite frankly repulsive and absurd.

There are millions upon millions of children being brought up by non-biological parents, and they are being brought up in homes full of love, and being given chances and opportunities in life that in many cases would be denied to them. That applies all throughout the world.

In return for that the non-biological parents are gifted the love of a child, and a lifetime bond that in many cases surpasses the the relationship that many children have with their feckless biological parents.

I personally have never found myself in the position to take up in a permanent relationship with a lady with children, however I know that if it ever happened I would treat those children with the same love and attention as I treated my own.

You have just dismissed hundreds of millions of people in loving families as being in some way second hand, second class citizens. Quite frankly I find your opinion to be appalling and extraordinarily narrow minded. Absurd, just absurd......and you may well find that life deals you a hand that will teach you how absurd those types of statements are.

[theblether]

What's "NGO" ?

yes, i know ngoo = snake,

but is this an acronym for Next Generation Officer or something else ?

I get the impression your rippin the p*ss but the answer to your question is Non Government Organization.

Some are superb, and some are woeful.

[RAZZELL]

Bagwan and Theblether great posts

Zatoichi...have you never heard of the phrase "Unconditional Love"

RAZZ

[JurgenG]

...... all are slaves to the system established by the Sino-Thai elite.

You forgot the jews and the freemasons ...

_

[JurgenG]

...... all are slaves to the system established by the Sino-Thai elite.

And what about the jews and the freemasons ?

And also add the communists, the islamists and the Scrooby separatists to be sure not to forget anybody

_

[poanoi]

Ok, thanks.

No, i'm not ripping anything, actually i only understand the meaning of "ripping"

because of the context, and i don't understand acronym's save the most common like

<deleted> OMG IMO.

And i guess non government organization = Bill Gates charity stuff for cancer etc

[chiangmaikelly]

Now see these are the women that need rescuing. But these aren't whores, they are Slaves forced to have sex with people. They are Victims of a ring of nasty, scum of the earth individuals, A world away from someone who chooses that profession on their own.

You are far, far too judgmental on the bar girls. Most have had few options, a structural result of the Thai economy which has always found ways to provide labor to one of the most profitable businesses in Thailand, a country where cash business rules politics. Or as the title of the book by Achaan Pasuk clearly points out: Guns, Girls, Gambling, Ganja:Thailand's illegal economy and Public Policy. So there is a continuum from the freelance bar girls to the slaves, but all are slaves to the system established by the Sino-Thai elite.

"There must be some way out of here" said the joker to the thief

"There's too much confusion", I can't get no relief

Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth

None of them along the line know what any of it is worth.

Who is Achaan Pasuk? Do you mean Pasuk Phongpaichit Cambridge grad? Did you really read the book?

[chiangmaikelly]

This is a difficult subject to discuss because there are liberals on both sides. Journalists called “Muckrakers” like Somerset Maugham who wrote “Rain” and song writers who write satirical songs like “My father is a poor missionary, he saves women from sin” point out the fact that the main abusers of women and children are those that are supposed to protect them.

Looking at certain clergy over the past few decades it is easy to see how one might get that impression or one might look at wiki and search Jimmy Swaggart, Marvin Gorman, Jim and Tammy Bakker, 1986 and 1991) to name a few.

Or if one lives in Thailand a search of “NGO and the trafficked Thai kids who weren't trafficked.” “Australian Charity's Sex Slavery Scam Uncovered.” There are many reasons why people have a healthy suspicion of NGO's and yet anyone connected with them is usually free with accusations of anyone who is critical.

During the McCarthy era, thousands of Americans were accused of being Communists or communist sympathizers and became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private-industry panels, committees and agencies just because they questioned Joe McCarthy who saw communists everywhere much like some people today see traffickers everywhere.

So far, I think, only one poster has claimed to have met a woman who was saved by an NGO. He doesn't say what NGO or where the woman was saved or how old she is or how long ago or what she is doing now. All those things I would like to know. If we can discuss this issue without name calling or questioning my morality.

Because I think NGO's are the bad guys does not make me a people trafficker. It just makes me a reader of newspapers and current affairs on the INTERNET.

[johna]

If you want to understand how the majority of women end up in the sex trade read "The Natashas" by Victor Malarek, inside the new global sex trade.

[Johnniey]

NGO's - Can save people who are in a situation they WANT to be saved from. The reason you don't see them save a bunch of hookers from the bar is because most whores choose to turn tricks rather than to work a lower paying, harder job. But the jobs ARE available, check out a construction site next time you see one, and look at how many women are out there doing the same work as men. Tough, dirty, hard work, but they keep their dignity intact. How can you rescue someone who doesn't have the integrity to care, and never did?

Wifeing Bargirls - Up too you, if a man feels like he wants to marry a women hundreds or thousands of men screwed for a few pennies, zipped up walked out and forgot her name. Then that's on them. I don't think they personally should be discriminated against. However they should not expect the rest of the world to suddenly see his wife for anything other than a former whore that married a customer.

Personally I would not marry a hooker. I learned at a young age to put things back were I found them. Nuff Said.

Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself?

Very wise post.

@Zatoichi

That last paragraph is quite frankly repulsive and absurd.

There are millions upon millions of children being brought up by non-biological parents, and they are being brought up in homes full of love, and being given chances and opportunities in life that in many cases would be denied to them. That applies all throughout the world.

In return for that the non-biological parents are gifted the love of a child, and a lifetime bond that in many cases surpasses the the relationship that many children have with their feckless biological parents.

I personally have never found myself in the position to take up in a permanent relationship with a lady with children, however I know that if it ever happened I would treat those children with the same love and attention as I treated my own.

You have just dismissed hundreds of millions of people in loving families as being in some way second hand, second class citizens. Quite frankly I find your opinion to be appalling and extraordinarily narrow minded. Absurd, just absurd......and you may well find that life deals you a hand that will teach you how absurd those types of statements are.

Zaitochi underlined in that paragraph that he didn't think there was anything wrong with choosing a woman with kids from a previous relationship..I agree, there is nothing wrong but actually Do think these women are second hand. I'm talking about Thailand here - I get the felling you're not. How long have you lived here? In my years here I've met many guys who marry bar-prostitutes and it has high risk - sure you might get a few years of fun but I know of only two that lasted over 10 years.

I've also known many to marry normal women with kids - why? Some say they want a ready made family but not many. Others don't realise that these women 'home in' on farang as they baasically got no chance finding a Thia man if they're over 30 with a couple of kids. The farang that's lived in a European country for 45 years comes here and is conditioned into thinking that these are eligible women.

I've known even a few younger (well-off financially) guys(obviously straight off the boat) that marry bar-prostitutes WITH kids, and dark-skinned to boot!!!!!!!

Nothing but trouble - someone asked what NGO means - these are what I've heard referred to as "farang ngo"

There should be a warning to all new guys here to avoid disaster-

based on my experience of hundred of relationships.

Don't marry a bar-prostitute.

Don't marry a woman with kids, especially if they are male.

Never marry a Thai lady unless you've lived here for AT LEAST 3 years, in order to learn these things.

Never build a house for your wife(if she's from a poor background) until you've lived here for AT LEAST 5 years together.

[GuestHouse]

If you want to understand how the majority of women end up in the sex trade read "The Natashas" by Victor Malarek, inside the new global sex trade.

There's plenty of research on whys and hows of women in the sex trade - disappointingly little if any on the Johns who drive the trade.

[Plucky]

Bagwan that is a very moving and amazing story. That is the perfect example of someone truly making a difference and not just doing it for kudos and stories for back home.

Truly awe inspiring.

[chiangmaikelly]

NGO's - Can save people who are in a situation they WANT to be saved from. The reason you don't see them save a bunch of hookers from the bar is because most whores choose to turn tricks rather than to work a lower paying, harder job. But the jobs ARE available, check out a construction site next time you see one, and look at how many women are out there doing the same work as men. Tough, dirty, hard work, but they keep their dignity intact. How can you rescue someone who doesn't have the integrity to care, and never did?

Wifeing Bargirls - Up too you, if a man feels like he wants to marry a women hundreds or thousands of men screwed for a few pennies, zipped up walked out and forgot her name. Then that's on them. I don't think they personally should be discriminated against. However they should not expect the rest of the world to suddenly see his wife for anything other than a former whore that married a customer.

Personally I would not marry a hooker. I learned at a young age to put things back were I found them. Nuff Said.

Or even a woman with kids from a previous relationship. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. Infact I think it's a rather noble charity in a way. But I wouldn't because I don't want to raise someone else's kids, and there are TONS of great women out there that don't have kids and never been married. So why burden myself?

Very wise post.

@Zatoichi

That last paragraph is quite frankly repulsive and absurd.

There are millions upon millions of children being brought up by non-biological parents, and they are being brought up in homes full of love, and being given chances and opportunities in life that in many cases would be denied to them. That applies all throughout the world.

In return for that the non-biological parents are gifted the love of a child, and a lifetime bond that in many cases surpasses the the relationship that many children have with their feckless biological parents.

I personally have never found myself in the position to take up in a permanent relationship with a lady with children, however I know that if it ever happened I would treat those children with the same love and attention as I treated my own.

You have just dismissed hundreds of millions of people in loving families as being in some way second hand, second class citizens. Quite frankly I find your opinion to be appalling and extraordinarily narrow minded. Absurd, just absurd......and you may well find that life deals you a hand that will teach you how absurd those types of statements are.

Zaitochi underlined in that paragraph that he didn't think there was anything wrong with choosing a woman with kids from a previous relationship..I agree, there is nothing wrong but actually Do think these women are second hand. I'm talking about Thailand here - I get the felling you're not. How long have you lived here? In my years here I've met many guys who marry bar-prostitutes and it has high risk - sure you might get a few years of fun but I know of only two that lasted over 10 years.

I've also known many to marry normal women with kids - why? Some say they want a ready made family but not many. Others don't realise that these women 'home in' on farang as they baasically got no chance finding a Thia man if they're over 30 with a couple of kids. The farang that's lived in a European country for 45 years comes here and is conditioned into thinking that these are eligible women.

I've known even a few younger (well-off financially) guys(obviously straight off the boat) that marry bar-prostitutes WITH kids, and dark-skinned to boot!!!!!!!

Nothing but trouble - someone asked what NGO means - these are what I've heard referred to as "farang ngo"

There should be a warning to all new guys here to avoid disaster-

based on my experience of hundred of relationships.

Don't marry a bar-prostitute.

Don't marry a woman with kids, especially if they are male.

Never marry a Thai lady unless you've lived here for AT LEAST 3 years, in order to learn these things.

Never build a house for your wife(if she's from a poor background) until you've lived here for AT LEAST 5 years together.

Interesting post but I am a little lost. What does it have to do with the topic which is, "So what I would like to know, has anyone here personally known or met anyone saved by a NGO group?" Especially the "Dark Skinned" part. What does that have to do with anything? Am I reading something wrong?

[chiangmaikelly]

If you want to understand how the majority of women end up in the sex trade read "The Natashas" by Victor Malarek, inside the new global sex trade.

There's plenty of research on whys and hows of women in the sex trade - disappointingly little if any on the Johns who drive the trade.

I am lost here. I thought the topic was about finding stories of NGO's who have saved women. Are you trying to take the thread off topic into "Johns who drive the sex trade?"

Haven't there been enough anti johns who drive the sex trade threads on Thai Visa already? I know a lot of people dislike prostitution but can't we have some good stories about how NGO's have rescued women instead of all the old sex pat talk which pervades so much of the stuff here?

[bonobo]

So far, I think, only one poster has claimed to have met a woman who was saved by an NGO. He doesn't say what NGO or where the woman was saved or how old she is or how long ago or what she is doing now. All those things I would like to know. If we can discuss this issue without name calling or questioning my morality.

Because I think NGO's are the bad guys does not make me a people trafficker. It just makes me a reader of newspapers and current affairs on the INTERNET.

Two posters. One claimed to have met one, and I posted that I had met women in the process of being given another option. I actually tend away from the term "saved" as I think it has been co-opted by the recent movement of fighting human trafficking, which has grown so all-encompassing as to pull everything under its umbrella (case in point, the Filipino police "saving" "Sex-slaves" in Cebu--who were a handful of men and women who freely worked as cam-entertainers, liked the job, and were now worried that they would have to revert to actual prostitution.)

Regardless, I have met many, many people in the NGO field, and while there were some sanctimonious <deleted> amongst them, there were some amazing folks who have my undying respect: a Nigerian man who has to be the most upright and gentle man I have met in my life, the Pillsbury Doughboy looking young man who had the Sudan Army chasing him to kill him because he put up posters of both political candidates and taught illiterate locals the how to vote, the retired husband and wife who sold their Bay area home to finance the work they were doing to combat blindness in Africa when other funding ran low, to the woman who braved public censure and harassment to teach rural Indian women what HIV was and how to try and protect themselves from it.

NGO workers are like any other group. Some are good, some are bad. I might think a higher percentage may be in the good column than, say MBA graduates (a group to which I belong), but certainly there are bad ones. I just think it is silly to classify NGOs are bad because a couple have been scams or gravy-trains.

[brit1984]

I agree 100% with bonobo.

NGO workers are generally well educated people who sacrifice the opportunity to pursue lucrative careers in order to help other people.

When I was at Oxford, I was often shocked that some of my peers wanted to follow this route (rather than go into the city) but obviously I lack their selfless outlook on life.

My auntie (after graduating from LSE) spent the best part of two decades helping the poor in Africa as an NGO worker. She could have earnt a fortune in most other jobs over that time but instead she earnt very little (financially) because helping others is more important to her than money, and she is very proud of the work she did and the people she helped.

To try to suggest (as some contributors to this thread are trying to do) that sex tourists as a group are in some way superior to NGO workers is ridiculous.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

Edited August 25, 2012 by brit1984

[chiangmaikelly]

How many NGO's are involved in stopping the drug trade in Thailand? I don't think many. But a lot of the NGO's in Thailand use the same tactics to stop trafficking. I think therein lies the problem.

The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such.

It is two different things. Someone should tell the NGO's it is two different things.

If the NGO's were made up of women who were trafficked and helped women who were trafficked I would be 100% in favor of helping them.

However most NGO's are made up of people from other countries who know little or nothing about the problem; not even speaking the language of the victims. If one does not speak Burmese, Lao or Khmer one is not going to help women trafficked into Thailand (apologies to the three ladies from Uzbekistan who get trafficked in every year).

I realize the anti prostitution regulars want to turn it into an another anti prostitution thread with the normal references to balding, old fat guys being the perennial Thai bad guys but that is not the topic.

The topic is NGO's do they work at stopping sex slavery? Or is there any sex slavery in Thailand?

What would an NGO have to do to provide an income for a family whose daughters worked in Pattaya? How much money would they have to provide two sisters and what kind of job training would they need to provide? What kind of job training do current NGO's provide and how much do the jobs pay?

Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[carmine]

Whats an NGO?