Ngo Or Sexpat

[elliss]

Lots of idiots in each group. At least the ngo workers are getting paid though, some of them have quite the scam going on.

why not , they live good in los , good food and accomodation, along with a do gooder image .

whats their alternative choice, return to their home countries , join the dole

and become one of the unwashed , waiting for the inevitable social cleansing to begin .

[GuestHouse]

To try to suggest (as some contributors to this thread are trying to do) that sex tourists as a group are in some way superior to NGO workers is ridiculous.

Thank you for nailing the issue.

[GuestHouse]

The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such.

Since almost all the rest of your argument hangs on this point, can you produce some hard evidence that your statement here is true?

[StreetCowboy]

If you want to understand how the majority of women end up in the sex trade read "The Natashas" by Victor Malarek, inside the new global sex trade.

There's plenty of research on whys and hows of women in the sex trade - disappointingly little if any on the Johns who drive the trade.

I am lost here. I thought the topic was about finding stories of NGO's who have saved women. Are you trying to take the thread off topic into "Johns who drive the sex trade?"

Haven't there been enough anti johns who drive the sex trade threads on Thai Visa already? I know a lot of people dislike prostitution but can't we have some good stories about how NGO's have rescued women instead of all the old sex pat talk which pervades so much of the stuff here?

I think the precise aim of the thread was

a) to make sexpats feel good about themselves

to tap a rich vein of vitriol towards a new target.

The OP probably rightly guessed that there would be more posters who would identify with the sexpat group than with the NGO group, and few amongst us would be able to keep our prejudices and ill-judged opinions to ourselves

SC

[brit1984]

How many NGO's are involved in stopping the drug trade in Thailand? I don't think many. But a lot of the NGO's in Thailand use the same tactics to stop trafficking. I think therein lies the problem.

The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such.

It is two different things. Someone should tell the NGO's it is two different things.

If the NGO's were made up of women who were trafficked and helped women who were trafficked I would be 100% in favor of helping them.

However most NGO's are made up of people from other countries who know little or nothing about the problem; not even speaking the language of the victims. If one does not speak Burmese, Lao or Khmer one is not going to help women trafficked into Thailand (apologies to the three ladies from Uzbekistan who get trafficked in every year).

I realize the anti prostitution regulars want to turn it into an another anti prostitution thread with the normal references to balding, old fat guys being the perennial Thai bad guys but that is not the topic.

The topic is NGO's do they work at stopping sex slavery? Or is there any sex slavery in Thailand?

What would an NGO have to do to provide an income for a family whose daughters worked in Pattaya? How much money would they have to provide two sisters and what kind of job training would they need to provide? What kind of job training do current NGO's provide and how much do the jobs pay?

Unless this thread is being read by an academic who has recently done a study on NGOs focused on helping sex workers in Thailand, it is very unlikely you will receive answers to all your questions.

However, from a quick search in google I can see there are at least a dozen such NGOs operating in Thailand, including some that provide FREE housing, FREE food, and FREE retraining for industries that need staff (e.g. hotels).

NGOs generally don't last long if they are not helping, as many of their benefactors expect to see evidence of results. Some of the NGOs operating in Thailand have been here for more than 20 years.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

[chiangmaikelly]

The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such.

Since almost all the rest of your argument hangs on this point, can you produce some hard evidence that your statement here is true?

In 2003 the organisation published a report stating that many anti-trafficking organisations failed to recognize the important difference between migrant sex workers and women forced to prostitute themselves against their will. They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). The operation was carried out without the consent of the sex workers and resulted in numerous human rights violations.^[5] IJM subsequently ended its countertrafficking work in Thailand.^[6] Chantawipa Apisuk has said that in her opinion these raids and the following arrests and stigmatization only worsen the situation of most prostitutes.^[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMPOWER

[GuestHouse]

If you want to understand how the majority of women end up in the sex trade read "The Natashas" by Victor Malarek, inside the new global sex trade.

There's plenty of research on whys and hows of women in the sex trade - disappointingly little if any on the Johns who drive the trade.

I am lost here. I thought the topic was about finding stories of NGO's who have saved women. Are you trying to take the thread off topic into "Johns who drive the sex trade?"

Haven't there been enough anti johns who drive the sex trade threads on Thai Visa already? I know a lot of people dislike prostitution but can't we have some good stories about how NGO's have rescued women instead of all the old sex pat talk which pervades so much of the stuff here?

I think the precise aim of the thread was

a) to make sexpats feel good about themselves

to tap a rich vein of vitriol towards a new target.

The OP probably rightly guessed that there would be more posters who would identify with the sexpat group than with the NGO group, and few amongst us would be able to keep our prejudices and ill-judged opinions to ourselves

SC

If you go back to the top of the thread you'll discover the subject is actually, "NGO or Sexpat".

It is clear that many here have only the most superficial understanding of the NGO sector and some very strange ideas about the their objectives or indeed most of what NGOs actually do. While at the same time we have others who really would rather the Sexpat bit just doesn't get raised at all. So, yes, ill judged opinion we have with a prejudicial leaning to not discussing the actual economic driver behind the sex industry - The customers.

[GuestHouse]

The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such.

Since almost all the rest of your argument hangs on this point, can you produce some hard evidence that your statement here is true?

In 2003 the organisation published a report stating that many anti-trafficking organisations failed to recognize the important difference between migrant sex workers and women forced to prostitute themselves against their will. They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). The operation was carried out without the consent of the sex workers and resulted in numerous human rights violations.^[5] IJM subsequently ended its countertrafficking work in Thailand.^[6] Chantawipa Apisuk has said that in her opinion these raids and the following arrests and stigmatization only worsen the situation of most prostitutes.^[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMPOWER

Absolutely no reference to trafficked women being treated as drug smugglers - per your claim.

Will you produce evidence to your claim that NGOs treat trafficked women as drug smugglers or will you retract your claim as unfounded?

[StreetCowboy]

I suppose the NGO that we are most familiar with is the "Cabbages and Condoms" chain, which, as I understand, funds projects to improve health and reduce dependency on the sex trade.

http://www.cabbagesandcondoms.com/about_background.php

I think they've probably helped some people. They don't specifically target prostitutes, as far as I can tell, but then surely that's the point of an inclusive society... we don't target prostitutes.

I don't think I know any sexpats who have married slave-girls from forced-sex local brothels. Though again, I haven't given any of my friends a rigourous interrogation, so I couldn't say for sure.

SC

[StreetCowboy]

...

I think the precise aim of the thread was

a) to make sexpats feel good about themselves

b ) to tap a rich vein of vitriol towards a new target. [EDIT: bloody smiley replaced with b ) because gets replaced with a bloody smiley;SC]

The OP probably rightly guessed that there would be more posters who would identify with the sexpat group than with the NGO group, and few amongst us would be able to keep our prejudices and ill-judged opinions to ourselves

SC

If you go back to the top of the thread you'll discover the subject is actually, "NGO or Sexpat".

...

Correct. And I think that the reasons that the OP posted it are as given above.

We all like to feel good about ourselves, and no doubt some amongst us are pleased to be able to feel good about marrying someone that others look down upon. This topic has been discussed before, usually with a reference to "white knights" * , but never before with the explicit NGO-bashing, which is normally confined to comments on stories run in the Western press condemning the sex trade.

I doubt many people from NGOs would be offended by the opinions expressed in this thread, though they may be dismayed by the ignorance and bigotry that surrounds them; they may also be a little distressed by the thought that the young and naive might read a thread such as this and believe that the comments are posted by normal ** people

SC

* Please open a separate post for a digression on 'white knights" and the KKK etc...

** 'normal' people; as if there were any... the only normal person I know is the bloke on the Clapham Omnibus, and he's an imaginary character

[chiangmaikelly]

The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such.

Since almost all the rest of your argument hangs on this point, can you produce some hard evidence that your statement here is true?

In 2003 the organisation published a report stating that many anti-trafficking organisations failed to recognize the important difference between migrant sex workers and women forced to prostitute themselves against their will. They documented a May 2003 "raid and rescue" operation on a brothel in Chiang Mai that was carried out by TRAFCORD with support by the International Justice Mission (IJM). The operation was carried out without the consent of the sex workers and resulted in numerous human rights violations.^[5] IJM subsequently ended its countertrafficking work in Thailand.^[6] Chantawipa Apisuk has said that in her opinion these raids and the following arrests and stigmatization only worsen the situation of most prostitutes.^[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMPOWER

Absolutely no reference to trafficked women being treated as drug smugglers - per your claim.

Will you produce evidence to your claim that NGOs treat trafficked women as drug smugglers or will you retract your claim as unfounded?

The women were treated as if they had committed a crime. The difference is in the wording, "raid" as opposed to rescue. Drug smugglers are raided. Trafficked women should be rescued. But the fact is they are not. If you look at the raids and the reporting of the raids you will discover that the women are held against their will. The whole procedure is more like a drug raid than a rescue of women who have been trafficked. The information is all there. You can go find it. I provided the source.

[GuestHouse]

Wikipedia have this list of NGOs working in Thailand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_non-governmental_organizations_in_Thailand while the list is incomplete it is interesting to see the range of areas these NGOs are working in.

But we know this already. Anyone living in Pattaya or Bangkok will be familiar with the work done by NGOs with Orphanages, care and help for people addicted to drugs and alcohol, care for the people suffering HIV/AIDS and a range of help being offered by NGOs to stateless children in and around these areas. This latter group almost completely ignored by the Thai Government and hence reliant on NGOs for the very basics of food, health and education.

[GuestHouse]

The women were treated as if they had committed a crime. The difference is in the wording, "raid" as opposed to rescue. Drug smugglers are raided. Trafficked women should be rescued. But the fact is they are not. If you look at the raids and the reporting of the raids you will discover that the women are held against their will. The whole procedure is more like a drug raid than a rescue of women who have been trafficked. The information is all there. You can go find it. I provided the source.

Man-Up and admit you made a mistake, your claim that NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers is unfounded nonsense that if you man-up you can retract.

[chiangmaikelly]

I suppose the NGO that we are most familiar with is the "Cabbages and Condoms" chain, which, as I understand, funds projects to improve health and reduce dependency on the sex trade.

http://www.cabbagesa..._background.php

I think they've probably helped some people. They don't specifically target prostitutes, as far as I can tell, but then surely that's the point of an inclusive society... we don't target prostitutes.

I don't think I know any sexpats who have married slave-girls from forced-sex local brothels. Though again, I haven't given any of my friends a rigourous interrogation, so I couldn't say for sure.

SC

I think you made a mistake about the sex trade reference. Check out the below mission statement of Cabbages and Condoms.

bring awareness to the benefits of condom use and discourage the stigmas associated with it. He achieved these goals through educating villagers, promoting condom and oral contraceptive distribution and using inventive—and occasionally controversial—activities to familiarize the population to condoms. With PDA’s efforts, the annual population growth rate in Thailand declined from over 3% in 1974 to 0.6% in 2005, and the average number of children per family fell from seven to under two.

[chiangmaikelly]

The women were treated as if they had committed a crime. The difference is in the wording, "raid" as opposed to rescue. Drug smugglers are raided. Trafficked women should be rescued. But the fact is they are not. If you look at the raids and the reporting of the raids you will discover that the women are held against their will. The whole procedure is more like a drug raid than a rescue of women who have been trafficked. The information is all there. You can go find it. I provided the source.

Man-Up and admit you made a mistake, your claim that NGOs treat trafficked women like drug smugglers is unfounded nonsense that if you man-up you can retract.

If you read the whole story you will see the similarity of a drug raid. In any event I think that most NGO's treat trafficked women like criminals instead of victims. That is my point. You can call it a drug raid or any other kind of criminal offense the method is the same. A bunch of guys rush in with guns drawn and terrorize poor women. If you think that is OK that is up to you.

[DP25]

I suppose the NGO that we are most familiar with is the "Cabbages and Condoms" chain, which, as I understand, funds projects to improve health and reduce dependency on the sex trade.

http://www.cabbagesa..._background.php

That's also a Thai NGO. I think what people have a problem with is a certain subset made up clueless parachute foreign activists relying on churning out sensationalistic stories of dubious truth in order to keep the donations from back home flowing in. The C&C guys are focused on real problems that are affecting Thailand and have had lots of success, they are not focused on sensationalism to drive funding goals back in a foreign country. Clearly there are lots of Thai organizations that don't get publicity in the west that are doing lots of good things. However I think the real need for foreign NGOs is in Cambodia, Laos and Burma. That is where most of these parachute activists should be going, but of course living there can be rather difficult and is an unattractive prospect for some of these types of people.

[brit1984]

I suppose the NGO that we are most familiar with is the "Cabbages and Condoms" chain, which, as I understand, funds projects to improve health and reduce dependency on the sex trade.

http://www.cabbagesa..._background.php

I think they've probably helped some people. They don't specifically target prostitutes, as far as I can tell, but then surely that's the point of an inclusive society... we don't target prostitutes.

I don't think I know any sexpats who have married slave-girls from forced-sex local brothels. Though again, I haven't given any of my friends a rigourous interrogation, so I couldn't say for sure.

SC

I think you made a mistake about the sex trade reference. Check out the below mission statement of Cabbages and Condoms.

bring awareness to the benefits of condom use and discourage the stigmas associated with it. He achieved these goals through educating villagers, promoting condom and oral contraceptive distribution and using inventive—and occasionally controversial—activities to familiarize the population to condoms. With PDA’s efforts, the annual population growth rate in Thailand declined from over 3% in 1974 to 0.6% in 2005, and the average number of children per family fell from seven to under two.

Maybe SC assumed readers of his post would understand the relevance of condoms to the sex industry.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

[GuestHouse]

So no evidence whatsoever of NGOs treating trafficked women like drug smugglers. Though a great deal of effort being put into fudging the issue to avoid admitting the statement is groundless nonsense.

A retraction would be sensible, but further compounding the errors in the argument with more fudged thinking only serves to undermine the veracity and credibility of the claims. So please do continue.

[chiangmaikelly]

So no evidence whatsoever of NGOs treating trafficked women like drug smugglers. Though a great deal of effort being put into fudging the issue to avoid admitting the statement is groundless nonsense.

A retraction would be sensible, but further compounding the errors in the argument with more fudged thinking only serves to undermine the veracity and credibility of the claims. So please do continue.

This is a quote from a rescued women with the Empower group, "We have been spied on, arrested, cut off from our families, had our savings confiscated, interrogated, imprisoned and placed into the hands of the men with guns, in order for them to send us home... all in the name of “protection against trafficking”.

It’s rubbing salt into the wound that this is called helping us. We are grateful for those who are

genuinely concerned with our welfare ... but we ask you to listen to us and think in new ways.

After “raid or rescue” we will walk the same path again, facing the same dangers at the same border

crossings. Just like the women fighting to be educated, fighting to vote, fighting to participate in

politics, fighting to be independent, fighting to work, to love, to live safely... we will not stay in the

cage society has made for us, we will dare to keep crossing the lines."

Do you really want some more?

Hit and Run: The Impact of Anti Trafficking - Displaying items by tag

Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[theblether]

Zaitochi underlined in that paragraph that he didn't think there was anything wrong with choosing a woman with kids from a previous relationship..I agree, there is nothing wrong but actually Do think these women are second hand. I'm talking about Thailand here - I get the felling you're not. How long have you lived here? In my years here I've met many guys who marry bar-prostitutes and it has high risk - sure you might get a few years of fun but I know of only two that lasted over 10 years.

I've also known many to marry normal women with kids - why? Some say they want a ready made family but not many. Others don't realise that these women 'home in' on farang as they baasically got no chance finding a Thia man if they're over 30 with a couple of kids. The farang that's lived in a European country for 45 years comes here and is conditioned into thinking that these are eligible women.

I've known even a few younger (well-off financially) guys(obviously straight off the boat) that marry bar-prostitutes WITH kids, and dark-skinned to boot!!!!!!!

Nothing but trouble - someone asked what NGO means - these are what I've heard referred to as "farang ngo"

There should be a warning to all new guys here to avoid disaster-

based on my experience of hundred of relationships.

Don't marry a bar-prostitute.

Don't marry a woman with kids, especially if they are male.

Never marry a Thai lady unless you've lived here for AT LEAST 3 years, in order to learn these things.

Never build a house for your wife(if she's from a poor background) until you've lived here for AT LEAST 5 years together.

You will notice that I specifically said that his last paragraph was repulsive and absurd. By dint, I passed no comment on his previous writings. Zatoichi made no attempt to identify the group he was referring to as being Thai only, you are assuming that he was referring to Thailand only. The way I read that last paragraph there is no basis for your assumption.

On topic, I get the impression that some people are jealous of some NGO employees. Some of the "Ya Boo" stuff directed at them is pathetic.....so what if they drive Toyota Land Cruisers? They are not exactly driving vehicles that we don't see every day in Thailand, and in some cases may even need vehicles of that ilk to get to villages, especially in the rainy season. So what if they are well paid? At some point in the equation they need to answer to a board of directors or some type of regulatory body in most countries. Hence come along the stories about financial abuses being uncovered. So what if many are sanctimonious pr*cks? They will fit in well with many of the guys sitting in bars spouting off about how their Thailand is the only true Thailand.

I do believe that jealousy is at the heart of it......I wonder how many TV members would jump at the chance of earning $50,000 a year and have all your visa issues disappear? Shall I do a poll?.....or can we just assume the answer?

I put my hand up and I will heartily agree that I have no doubt whatsoever that some NGO's are useless, and some NGO employees are beyond useless, however I also heartily agree that is why a healthy scepticism is a good thing. There are charities all throughout the world which fall below the standards that we would expect from them, you see many of them employee members of the human race and once you start doing that things start to go to pot

So be sceptical, but also recognise when good work is done.

[GuestHouse]

Again no mention of being treated like a drug smuggler. Keep digging if you feel you can dig yourself out of the baseless statement you made.

[chiangmaikelly]

There are some great NGO's in Thailand. One is Cabbages and Condoms the other is the Empower group. Both owned and operated by Thai people who know and understand Thai problems.

[GuestHouse]

Does not being Thai exclude an NGO from doing good work?

[rgs2001uk]

I do believe that jealousy is at the heart of it......I wonder how many TV members would jump at the chance of earning $50,000 a year and have all your visa issues disappear? Shall I do a poll?.....or can we just assume the answer?

I put my hand up and I will heartily agree that I have no doubt whatsoever that some NGO's are useless, and some NGO employees are beyond useless, however I also heartily agree that is why a healthy scepticism is a good thing. There are charities all throughout the world which fall below the standards that we would expect from them, you see many of them employee members of the human race and once you start doing that things start to go to pot

So be sceptical, but also recognise when good work is done.

I was always taught, never assume, always check.

Anyway to answer you, I will stick with the visa issues thank you very much.

[brit1984]

Does not being Thai exclude an NGO from doing good work?

No... but the presence of such people can be quite comfortable for sex tourists in Thailand, who would rather avoid the attention of the type of people who might disrupt their little fantasy world over here.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

[nontabury]

Bagwan and Theblether great posts

Zatoichi...have you never heard of the phrase "Unconditional Love"

RAZZ

Yes,Two very good posts,I hope many more people will take note.

[chiangmaikelly]

Again no mention of being treated like a drug smuggler. Keep digging if you feel you can dig yourself out of the baseless statement you made.

So what did I write? "The women who are trafficked are not drug smugglers but the NGO's treat them as such."

From the Hit and run report quoted above.

Women are apprehended and taken to police stations the same as other raids.

Reporters are given free range to photograph us the same as other raids. Our research shows that women have no idea what the raid is for, why they have been apprehended or what their rights are. We are eventually deported but unlike other deportations, we sometimes wait a year or more and rescues result in official deportations where we are handed over to our home governments.

It appears shelters are commonly used for detainment purposes despite the fact that it is illegal, violates the human rights of the women being held and causes great distress for the women and for shelter staff.

In its evangelistic aim to save women and girls, the rescue industry promotes rehabilitation. Sex workers spend years detained in State or non-government shelters, until they are deemed to be ‘reformed’ and if their families are judged to be adequate and they are no longer at risk of being a ‘prostitute’ they are released. Hit and Run: The Impact of Anti Trafficking - Displaying items by tag

So I wrote before, "How many NGO's are involved in stopping the drug trade in Thailand? I don't think many. But a lot of the NGO's in Thailand use the same tactics to stop trafficking. I think therein lies the problem."

Does it make sense yet. The NGO's are treating the women like drug criminals and locking them up.

Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[chiangmaikelly]

I wonder if the OP, and a few others here, even consider the long term impact of foreign men turning up in Thailand and doling out cash to the local women and their families.

We see enough evidence of the dependancy this largesse creates here on TV, but what are the wider impacts where the 'easy farang husband' option has become so ingrained in certain parts (or indeed geographical parts) of Thailand and its culture?

The 2011 TIP report noted that “sex tourism continues to be a problem in Thailand,

and this demand likely fuels trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation”. The

trafficking of men and boys into the fishing industry is of real concern in Thailand. The

US government continues to highlight this in the TIP reports but has to date not called

on Thailand to curb its consumption of fish.

[GuestHouse]

In Thailand drug smugglers face life time imprisonment or execution.

Is there evidence of NGOs locking trafficked women up for life ir executing them?

[chiangmaikelly]

Don't know but I'll keep looking.

Edited August 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly