Thailand's Justice System

[likewise]

so now and then I translate for police and court, yesterday got called once more by the court to translate in a case of a foreign woman that got raped, won't go into many details here as that would be inappropriate but would like to point a few things out :

The suspect was a local thai guy who was recently released on bail for the rape of a Thai girl, 36 hours after his release on bail he proceeded to rape the foreign woman, this guy also has been arrested before for drug offenses. The point here is that even multiple offenders get bail ! This has nothing to do with being rich or poor, a bail amount is set and if the parents/friends manage to get the money together the suspect gets released on bail.

In another case were a suspect was actually convicted to a 10 year + jail sentence, the suspect was also released on bail till the case will appear in the appeal court, which can take 2 to 3 years !

Quite often I asked prosecutors, lawyers and a judge what the deal is here. Their answer is that EVERY suspect has the right to be released on bail, they like to point out that this is a part of the law that Thailand adopted from Western countries !! Most countries in Europe do not grant bail and surely not for major offenses, US might be different !

Your thoughts here please, thanks.

[soi41]

I agree with you, it is a very strange system! But your legal friends are not completely correct, saying that it is the "right" of everyone. Think about the red shirts, quite a few of them were denied bail. And in general people charged with "112" offenses are denied bail.

Worst example recently with people getting bail, is the 3 policeofficers sentenced to death, bailed awaiting appeal. Should we guess, that there will be no witnesses appearing in the appeals court?

A more recent example of bail being denied is Dr Death from Petchaburi, where the public opinion overruled Dr Supats "right" to bail.

[ThailandBert]

You think it is just Thailand ? A man back in the UK who was out on bail for the suspected murder of a father and son and the grenade attack on another house has just shot and killed two female police officers he lured to a reported burglary where he shot and threw a hand grenade at them. They give bail to anyone back home. The justice system is a complete joke.

[pauljones]

The police or court would like you to run off and forfeit the bail money, no?

TIT.

[likewise]

For me it is very hard to comprehend since we don't have bail back home and most other European countries neither, must have something to do with the differences between civil and common law according to wikipedia.

[giddyup]

For me it is very hard to comprehend since we don't have bail back home and most other European countries neither, must have something to do with the differences between civil and common law according to wikipedia.

Where is it that they don't have bail?

[likewise]

Belgium,Netherlands do not use bail that I know for sure, being from the aforementioned country.

[likewise]

And as far as I know neither do the Scandinavian countries.

[soi41]

And as far as I know neither do the Scandinavian countries.

Correct!

[likewise]

so we got already 5 countries where we know there is no bail, not sure about Germany and France but I'm quite sure France doesn't use awkward bail system either.

[giddyup]

And as far as I know neither do the Scandinavian countries.

Correct!

That seems strange to me if you believe in the "innocent until proven guilty" concept. Theoretically you could sit in jail for a long time only to be found innocent.

[likewise]

Most people are not innocent, usually there is evidence and you will be held in custody till you appear in court and get sentenced.

Out here and other countries using bail, suspects are released on bail till their day in court, in my and other European countries you'll be held in custody and at the day of the verdict the months you have already done will be subtracted from your sentence. Seems much better then putting the suspects back on the street giving them the chance to seek revenge or intimidate witnesses.

[MrRealDeal]

Most people are not innocent, usually there is evidence and you will be held in custody till you appear in court and get sentenced.

The presumption is that you are innocent, and Bail is only set to make sure you come back to court not to prevent you from leaving jail. Except in rare cirsumstances. If it were the other way around the "State" could clog the jails with innocent people and hold them for a long time for petty charges.

[TomTao]

A bit over a year ago I asked one of the BiB which country Thailand's legal system is based on, he told me it is based on the French legal system, so if anyone is knowledgable about the French legal system and how the bail system works in France please share any insights you may have in regards to this discussion. Thanks

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Pormax]

Saw the headline

' Thailands Justice System'

I was intrigued; Did not know they had one!!

[likewise]

The theory sounds good but we do have less fugitives then Thailand and US with their bail system. If a suspect is arrested and there is evidence I do not see the need to grant him bail.

[endure]

Most people are not innocent, usually there is evidence and you will be held in custody till you appear in court and get sentenced.

Everyone is innocent until they've been to trial and been convicted.

[giddyup]

Most people are not innocent, usually there is evidence and you will be held in custody till you appear in court and get sentenced.

The presumption is that you are innocent, and Bail is only set to make sure you come back to court not to prevent you from leaving jail. Except in rare cirsumstances. If it were the other way around the "State" could clog the jails with innocent people and hold them for a long time for petty charges.

Agreed. In some less civilised countries there is no presumption of innocence and the state can hold you indefinitely without even charging you with an offence. I know countries like America already have an overburdened prison system, I imagine it would be impossible to house people if they didn't grant bail.

[likewise]

A bit over a year ago I asked one of the BiB which country Thailand's legal system is based on, he told me it is based on the French legal system, so if anyone is knowledgable about the French legal system and how the bail system works in France please share any insights you may have in regards to this discussion. Thanks

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

I was told that Thailand uses civil law, as far as I know France does not grant bail to suspects. Not sure though, not a lawyer myself

[likewise]

Most people are not innocent, usually there is evidence and you will be held in custody till you appear in court and get sentenced.

Everyone is innocent until they've been to trial and been convicted.

Well, if your wife or daughter gets raped and she points out the suspect but trial will start in a couple of months then he will be released on bail in some countries, happy to know that in my country he will go straight to prison and won't be a threat to my wife or daughter or any other woman walking the planet.

[likewise]

Right, the US has such a great system that it also has the most prisoners per capita !

[robblok]

Belgium,Netherlands do not use bail that I know for sure, being from the aforementioned country.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect App

No bail true they just let you go if their investigation is done and your not a flight risk.

[likewise]

In Belgium it works like this : You get arrested, there is evidence against you, cops keep you for 24 hours, then you are sent to a magistrate who will decide to keep you in custody or not till court date, off to prison you go and every 28 days you appear in front of a panel of judges who decide to extend those 28 days or to release you till court date. In most cases where there is evidence or heavy crimes every 28 days will be extended with another 28 till you appear in front of court of first hearing who will hand down the sentence. Seems like a better system then the one where people are granted bail and are out on the streets again which is often a slap in the face of their victims.

[likewise]

Belgium,Netherlands do not use bail that I know for sure, being from the aforementioned country.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect App

No bail true they just let you go if their investigation is done and your not a flight risk.

Might be for The Netherlands, not in Belgium though.

[robblok]

Its almost like you described in the Netherlands they just let you wait your trial at home, provided you are not a flight risk or that you can interfear with the investigation of the crime. It also depends on what you have done of course. Brutal murder or just some car theft.

I am pretty sure thieves are out to await their trial just like in the netherlands.

[Mario2008]

In the Netherlands there is a two step system. First they look at the offense and the maximum entence available for that crime determines if you can be hold till your trail date. Next a judge determines if there is at first glance enough evidence to warrent to keep you in jail till your trail date. They won't go deep into the case, but if there is only one witness it is not enough to keep you for long.

[Swiss1960]

In Switzerland, if the state prosecutor asks for detention during the investigation time (either for flight risk, re-offending danger, suppression of evidence etc.), a special court has to decide within 48 hours whether to send you to prison or grant bail. bail can be money or house arrest or electronic feet cuffs or confiscation of passport or any combination thereoff. Detention during investigation has to be re-requested by the prosecutor on a monthly basis.

[I Like Thai]

Ireland has become a joke with the amount of people out on bail or early release.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/alarm-over-number-of-crimes-committed-by-those-out-on-bail-2218900.html

Alarm over number of crimes committed by those out on bail

A third of prisoners who go into Mountjoy are currently released back on to streets due to chronic overcrowding

Sunday June 13 2010

The main "problem" in the Irish justice and penal systems appears to be that gardai are "far too efficient" at apprehending and gaining convictions for criminals, a government source mused last week. The observation was sardonic, but, the source pointed out, quite true.

If the gardai captured fewer criminals, then the courts and prisons would be able to cope better. There would be more space in prisons and a greater ability to rehabilitate prisoners. The "revolving door" of temporary release and bail would end, so fewer criminals could be said to be at large committing crime in the community when they should have been in prison.

"Too efficient: you must be joking," was the response of a garda serving in a high-crime area of north-west Dublin. He claimed that far from prosecuting offenders -- a high proportion of whom were either on bail or temporary release from prison -- their crimes were being downgraded on official reports.

He cited a case of a man who was parking his car when he was attacked by two youths. They beat him, smashed windows in his car and robbed him of his wallet containing more than €100. The man filed a report. The garda found out later that instead of an assault, robbery from the person and criminal damage case, the incident was recorded as criminal damage -- as though a minor act of vandalism had taken place. This, he claimed, was commonplace.

He said that burglaries were regularly recorded as criminal damage -- officially a "non-headline" or non-serious crime -- or trespass, which is not necessarily a crime at all. In most cases where there had not been serious injury or a major amount of cash stolen, cases were often not investigated at all, he said.

His view was that the gardai should be prosecuting "twice as many" if they were doing their job properly.

Another garda in an area of high crime in the south of the city, when asked what percentage of crime was committed by people who should be in prison but were on bail or temporary release, replied: "Most of them."

He added that this applied mostly in the age bracket from about 17 or 18 up to mid-twenties. The "young guards", he said, were good at catching new young offenders.

And, he said, many young members of the force were very good at trying to invoke the diversion programmes to help steer new offenders away from crime.

One cited a case two weeks ago where a habitual offender in the north inner city was before Dublin District Court and sentenced to one month's imprisonment. He was driven from the court by gardai to Mountjoy Prison and admitted at around noon. Six hours later, the same gardai were amazed to learn that he had just been rearrested for theft and was in a cell in the Bridewell station.

Temporary early release because of overcrowding appears to have reached record levels, having increased steadily over the past two decades. Approximately a third of prisoners who go into Mountjoy are released, some having only been processed at reception. These are all people in on minor charges with minor sentences of six months or less. Mountjoy is perpetually overcrowded, as is most of the penal system.

The Prison Service admitted last week that more than 700 prisoners were on temporary release -- about 17 per cent of the prison population.

Figures obtained by Fine Gael's justice spokesman Charlie Flanagan show alarming statistics relating to crimes committed by people on bail.

The figures released to Mr Flanagan reveal that, since 2008, people on bail committed 15 murders, 47 sexual offences, 1,681 car theft offences, 508 burglaries, 122 aggravated burglaries (that is, burglaries accompanied by violence or threats), and 70 murder threats.

The greatest offender in the history of the State in relation to committing crime while on bail is undoubtedly Eamon Dunne, who was shot dead in Cabra two months ago. Dunne had been on bail since 2002, when he was caught by gardai with a bound and gagged man in the boot of his car, and whom he was probably intending to kill or torture. He was on bail at that stage on firearms offences. Dunne succeeded in staying free on bail for more than seven years, during which he was involved, gardai estimate, in 17 murders.

Charlie Flanagan argues: "When a person is arrested and charged with a crime, one of the effects is that the ordinary citizen is being protected from an obvious threat to society. Instead, the figures shown here are clear evidence that thousands of serious offences are committed by those under investigation for another crime because the State has seen fit to release them on bail.

"It is clear that the law is not operating as effectively as possible, and nothing has been done. The reality is that people released on bail are going on to commit serious crimes, despite the fact that their potential to commit such an offence is the very yardstick used when deciding whether or not to grant them bail.

"Put simply, Ireland's bail law is not protecting Irish citizens. Dangerous criminals under investigation are being re-released into society and, in some cases, going on to kill people. Unless the standard is raised in regard to who is let out on bail, the level of bail crime will continue to tear at the fabric of our communities. Law-abiding citizens deserve a far higher level of protection than that."

On the issue of reform of the system, he said: "There are people in prison who should not be in prison and people who should be in prison who are not in prison. We need an audit of the prison population. There are people with mental health problems who should not be in prison, homeless people."

There now appears to be disintegration in the system of juvenile justice, gardai say. Some are highly critical of the "restorative justice" ideas which have become the latest popular trend among some in garda management. Instead of punishing an offender, the idea is to bring them along to meet their victim. It is an unpleasant experience for many of the victims, gardai say, although supporters argue the opposite.

One recent initiative which gardai are optimistic about is currently being tried out in north Dublin. Under Chief Superintendent Pat Leahy from Store Street station, it was decided to assign individual gardai to individual cases, gathering all the charges into one case and one court appearance. The assigned "case manager" garda gets to know the individual, learns whether or not he or she comes from a broken family, and what domestic and social problems they face.

The Store Street initiative, unlike the "restorative justice" system which was largely dreamed up by academics, has come from the gardai on the streets. And gardai in the district say it might just work.

- JIM CUSACK

[likewise]

Its almost like you described in the Netherlands they just let you wait your trial at home, provided you are not a flight risk or that you can interfear with the investigation of the crime. It also depends on what you have done of course. Brutal murder or just some car theft.

I am pretty sure thieves are out to await their trial just like in the netherlands.

Small offenders are indeed usually at home to await trial, but theft or burglary with violence, murder, rape suspects and such are not released. Thailand though as far as I've seen at the court every man and his dog gets bail.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Well, which one is more "right"? Holding someone in prison who hasn't yet been convicted of any crime (and cases can takes MONTHS to reach court)? Or allowing them to post bail until they get their day in court and the opportunity to (possibly) prove themselves innocent?