Thai Id Card Technology Info

[simple1]

Some members of the forum may be interested in the Thailand Central Population Database and ID card system, developed by the U.S. company Control Data Systems, features an integration of identification and database technologies. A government-issued smart ID card contains electronic fingerprint and facial image data. The card is linked to computer databases, controlled and maintained by the Interior Ministry, covering the entire Thai population. For those who don't already know it also includes card owners religion and blood type.. For more detailed info go to:

http://cs.furman.edu/digitaldomain/themes/databases/db_crime.htm

Some Western countries have tried and failed to get National ID Card legislation passed into law due to concerns for citizens privacy. Is this concern relevant in Thailand?

[mogandave]

Some members of the forum may be interested in the Thailand Central Population Database and ID card system, developed by the U.S. company Control Data Systems, features an integration of identification and database technologies. A government-issued smart ID card contains electronic fingerprint and facial image data. The card is linked to computer databases, controlled and maintained by the Interior Ministry, covering the entire Thai population. For those who don't already know it also includes card owners religion and blood type.. For more detailed info go to:

http://cs.furman.edu/digitaldomain/themes/databases/db_crime.htm

Some Western countries have tried and failed to get National ID Card legislation passed into law due to concerns for citizens privacy. Is this concern relevant in Thailand?

No

[samran]

As a Thai citizen, it doesn't bother me. It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.

Living in the west, they can track you down quite easily if they really wanted to even without an ID card, so I might as well have one and enjoy the benefits of having one.

[Tim207]

As a Thai citizen, it doesn't bother me. It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.

Living in the west, they can track you down quite easily if they really wanted to even without an ID card, so I might as well have one and enjoy the benefits of having one.

I am curious as to what benefits you actually get with a national ID card as opposed to any other type of ID that is voluntary such as a passport or drivers license.

[mogandave]

Not everyone has a driver license and or a passport.

Isn't a passport just a national ID? I would much rather carry an ID card around than a passport.

Wait, I think there are black helicopters circling overhead.....

[Tim207]

Not everyone has a driver license and or a passport.

Isn't a passport just a national ID? I would much rather carry an ID card around than a passport.

Wait, I think there are black helicopters circling overhead.....

Your logic is a little bit flawed. Of course not everyone has a passport or drivers license because they are not required by every citizen, they are voluntary and are only required if you wish to avail yourself of the privileges they confer. Neither is a compulsory national ID that is required of every living person in a country.

Personally, I don't carry any ID with me, be it passport, drivers license, or national ID. My drivers license is kept in my vehicle and my passport is only used to cross international borders. I see no reason to carry a government issued document on me at all times and have the worry of misplacing it and the bureaucratic hassles to replace it if lost.

My simple question was what benefits samran was referring to when he wrote " It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption."

As my country does not have a national ID card, Iam, as I said, curious as to what was meant.

You can dismiss me with your little quip about black helicopters but your snide remark just gives credence to those who wish to limit the depth to which other people (government) have control over their lives. I simply asked for more information on samran's positive views of a National ID. I made no negative arguments against one. My not accepting that a national ID is wonderful without question provoked a belittling comment from you as if questioning the motives or wisdom of those in government makes me a conspiracy nut. People like you in government are exactly why I question government.

As for your black helicopters circling over your head. Why don't you wave your hand out the window, maybe I will wave back. :-)

[Rob8891]

@Tim207

Can I ask if you are single?... In fact do you have no living relatives or friends? Carrying some form of ID is, IMHO, a responsible step so that, in the event of an accident or worse, your ID will allow emergency services to contact those who might be worring about you.

[Tim207]

Can I ask if you are single?... In fact do you have no living relatives or friends? Carrying some form of ID is, IMHO, a responsible step so that, in the event of an accident or worse, your ID will allow emergency services to contact those who might be worring about you.

I am seldom in a place where someone close by would not be able to easily identify me unless I was driving, in which case I would have my drivers license. When in Thailand, my ID would not connect me to anyone who would be worrying about me so the people that matter would not be notified by the authorities. I am not in regular contact with anybody who would worry from my home country so I would not be noticed as missing for weeks anyway. Those who care about me are used to me being unable to contact them for extended periods. Now, if someone is really worried about being quickly identified, a couple of tattoos would be much more practical. One on your weak side arm and one on the opposite side calf with contact details. An ID in a wallet in some third world country is hardly a good way to get your body identified.

I don't live my life blindly following accepted wisdom. Often accepted wisdom is applicable to my situation but I prefer to look at things from my own specific individual situation and use what works best for me. Odds are slim that caring ID will be needed to identify my body and help to quickly notifying worried loved ones in my case. The hassle of continually carrying a document, worrying about where it is, and dealing with the bureaucratic hassle to replace it when lost far outweighs the benefit to me. For others I am sure it is different but we all are individuals with individual circumstances.

[Rob8891]

Can I ask if you are single?... In fact do you have no living relatives or friends? Carrying some form of ID is, IMHO, a responsible step so that, in the event of an accident or worse, your ID will allow emergency services to contact those who might be worring about you.

I am seldom in a place where someone close by would not be able to easily identify me unless I was driving, in which case I would have my drivers license. When in Thailand, my ID would not connect me to anyone who would be worrying about me so the people that matter would not be notified by the authorities. I am not in regular contact with anybody who would worry from my home country so I would not be noticed as missing for weeks anyway. Those who care about me are used to me being unable to contact them for extended periods. Now, if someone is really worried about being quickly identified, a couple of tattoos would be much more practical. One on your weak side arm and one on the opposite side calf with contact details. An ID in a wallet in some third world country is hardly a good way to get your body identified.

I don't live my life blindly following accepted wisdom. Often accepted wisdom is applicable to my situation but I prefer to look at things from my own specific individual situation and use what works best for me. Odds are slim that caring ID will be needed to identify my body and help to quickly notifying worried loved ones in my case. The hassle of continually carrying a document, worrying about where it is, and dealing with the bureaucratic hassle to replace it when lost far outweighs the benefit to me. For others I am sure it is different but we all are individuals with individual circumstances.

That's your choice, entirely, and I was not taking a pop at you. I don't like carrying a passport all the time when abroad, and, in fact usually I don't, but I do have a laminated credit card-size copy of the details page. I like to think that my family would be notified as soon as possible if anything happened to me.

Anyway, just asking!!

[Tim207]

That's your choice, entirely, and I was not taking a pop at you. I don't like carrying a passport all the time when abroad, and, in fact usually I don't, but I do have a laminated credit card-size copy of the details page. I like to think that my family would be notified as soon as possible if anything happened to me.

Anyway, just asking!!

I didn't take any offence, it was a fair question. For many the prospect of people worrying about them if they are missing for a few hours is a big deal. That just isn't my situation and sometimes people forget that others can have vastly different situations from themselves. I think that is a big positive to internet forums. You get to see things from the perspective of people with very different situations and experiences from yourself and your normal circle. It is easy to forget that there is a huge diversity out there and we can't possibly apply any universal idea, procedure, or practice that is best for everyone's situation.

I did take offence to mogandave insinuating that I am a conspiracy nut because I dare to ask a question about something that he finds self-evidently wonderful and not accept blindly that a national ID card is just what is needed to make my life idyllic.

[mogandave]

Not everyone has a driver license and or a passport.

Isn't a passport just a national ID? I would much rather carry an ID card around than a passport.

Wait, I think there are black helicopters circling overhead.....

Your logic is a little bit flawed. Of course not everyone has a passport or drivers license because they are not required by every citizen, they are voluntary and are only required if you wish to avail yourself of the privileges they confer. Neither is a compulsory national ID that is required of every living person in a country.

Personally, I don't carry any ID with me, be it passport, drivers license, or national ID. My drivers license is kept in my vehicle and my passport is only used to cross international borders. I see no reason to carry a government issued document on me at all times and have the worry of misplacing it and the bureaucratic hassles to replace it if lost.

My simple question was what benefits samran was referring to when he wrote " It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption."

As my country does not have a national ID card, Iam, as I said, curious as to what was meant.

You can dismiss me with your little quip about black helicopters but your snide remark just gives credence to those who wish to limit the depth to which other people (government) have control over their lives. I simply asked for more information on samran's positive views of a National ID. I made no negative arguments against one. My not accepting that a national ID is wonderful without question provoked a belittling comment from you as if questioning the motives or wisdom of those in government makes me a conspiracy nut. People like you in government are exactly why I question government.

As for your black helicopters circling over your head. Why don't you wave your hand out the window, maybe I will wave back. :-)

No, what you said was: “I am curious as to what benefits you actually get with a national ID card as opposed to any other type of ID that is voluntary such as a passport or drivers license.” To get anything from most governments, you generally have to have some form of identification.

You have a passport, and you have a driver license, so you have already provided the government all the information that would be required for a national ID. So much for all that limiting the depth and whatnot.

[mogandave]

Can I ask if you are single?... In fact do you have no living relatives or friends? Carrying some form of ID is, IMHO, a responsible step so that, in the event of an accident or worse, your ID will allow emergency services to contact those who might be worring about you.

I am seldom in a place where someone close by would not be able to easily identify me unless I was driving, in which case I would have my drivers license. When in Thailand, my ID would not connect me to anyone who would be worrying about me so the people that matter would not be notified by the authorities. I am not in regular contact with anybody who would worry from my home country so I would not be noticed as missing for weeks anyway. Those who care about me are used to me being unable to contact them for extended periods. Now, if someone is really worried about being quickly identified, a couple of tattoos would be much more practical. One on your weak side arm and one on the opposite side calf with contact details. An ID in a wallet in some third world country is hardly a good way to get your body identified.

I don't live my life blindly following accepted wisdom. Often accepted wisdom is applicable to my situation but I prefer to look at things from my own specific individual situation and use what works best for me. Odds are slim that caring ID will be needed to identify my body and help to quickly notifying worried loved ones in my case. The hassle of continually carrying a document, worrying about where it is, and dealing with the bureaucratic hassle to replace it when lost far outweighs the benefit to me. For others I am sure it is different but we all are individuals with individual circumstances.

You are able to do all of those things because you are really smart. I like to carry my driver license with me because I’m not that bright, and when I want to rent a room, or drive a friend home, or use a credit card, or go in a secure building or whatnot, I am not smart enough to talk the people into taking me at my word that I am who I claim to be. That said, I don’t find carrying a wallet or keeping track of it all that difficult. Of course, I’ve been doing it since I was a kid, and I wear trousers that have pockets, that may be why it seems so easy to me. Have you tried trousers with pockets? Perhaps a European man-bag? Maybe you can find something really stylish that is easy for you to keep track of.

I lost my wallet once about thirty years ago, but I’ve had cars stolen twice and broken into five times. When your car is stolen or burglarized, how do you rent a car? When you file the police report to try and recover the car, what do you say when they ask you for your driver license? Of course, leaving it in the car does make it convenient for the guy that steals it, he can just check your license and he knows where to return the car when he’s finished with it.

So explain again how much different the information you had to provide to get a passport and driver license is from what you would have to provide to get a national ID?

[Tim207]

You are able to do all of those things because you are really smart. I like to carry my driver license with me because I’m not that bright, and when I want to rent a room, or drive a friend home, or use a credit card, or go in a secure building or whatnot, I am not smart enough to talk the people into taking me at my word that I am who I claim to be. That said, I don’t find carrying a wallet or keeping track of it all that difficult. Of course, I’ve been doing it since I was a kid, and I wear trousers that have pockets, that may be why it seems so easy to me. Have you tried trousers with pockets? Perhaps a European man-bag? Maybe you can find something really stylish that is easy for you to keep track of.

I lost my wallet once about thirty years ago, but I’ve had cars stolen twice and broken into five times. When your car is stolen or burglarized, how do you rent a car? When you file the police report to try and recover the car, what do you say when they ask you for your driver license? Of course, leaving it in the car does make it convenient for the guy that steals it, he can just check your license and he knows where to return the car when he’s finished with it.

So explain again how much different the information you had to provide to get a passport and driver license is from what you would have to provide to get a national ID?

You seem to be getting very worked up over this.

To answer your first paragraph, I guess I am smart enough to know in advance that I will be renting a room, renting a car or entering a secure building and to bring the requisite ID necessary. Just because you don't mind carrying a wallet doesn't mean I should have to.

To answer your second paragraph, I have never had a car stolen or burglarized. In fact, my keys are usually left in my unlocked car. As to what I would say to the police, they would simply ask my name and date of birth and the records pop right up on their computer, including my picture.

Now, for your final paragraph. You don't seem to get the concept. It is not about not giving the government any information about me. They have a compelling interest to know if someone has a right to enter the country (passport) or whether someone is qualified to drive safely (drivers license). A universal ID is just a vehicle to gather information on everyone for the government to use for what they feel is for our own good. I think I should decide if I want to give them that information or opt out by not driving or traveling or whatever a specific ID is for. If everyone has to give the information by law then opting out makes you a criminal.

Who is to say what some politician will decide is in our best interest to have on a government database tomorrow. The Thai database has information on blood type which could be sensible but most of the world does just fine without it, not to mention when they see that at a hospital they will either ignore it making the info pointless, or they will assume it is correct and that some bored government data entry clerk didn't make an error. They also keep track of your religion. That information in government hands has not historically turned out very well and I really see no reason the government needs that info other than some politician wanted to know. So, what is the next bit of information that some politician will require all citizens to provide? Sexual orientation, medical conditions? It isn't a very big stretch to see local politicians or cops using this information to treat people in different ways based on what is in the database.

I am under the impression that your only interest in this topic is to force your view on others rather than have a rational discussion, and to try to belittle them if they don't agree with you. I have no interest in that.

Back to my original question to samran, I am honestly interested in an elaboration of this sentence "It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.". I don't understand how a national ID helps day to day as opposed to any other ID or how it limits bureaucracy or corruption. I don't ask this to start a political argument, I really want to understand your view as someone who has a national ID card.

[samran]

I am curious as to what benefits you actually get with a national ID card as opposed to any other type of ID that is voluntary such as a passport or drivers license.

Everything is efficient - and in a country where the default setting of a bureaucrat is to ask for copious amounts of paperwork, that is saying alot.

Need a passport? No forms, just give us your ID card and two emergency phone numbers. Take your photo and we'll send it to you in 3 days.

Paying Tax? Just enter your ID number.

DL? ID card please and we'll convert your international DL into a Thai one.

Bank account, trading account or post paid phone - the same.

Just to compare, I have also lived in the UK and have an Australian passport, and of course, have lived there too. I had full rights to work and live in both those countries - so was treated as a 'local'.

In some respects, in the west, DL serves the same purpose, but for other things (eg Bank accounts in Australia) you'd need mulitple forms of ID etc.

Hand on my heart - Thailand generally beats them when it comes to getting paperwork sorted.

[samran]

Back to my original question to samran, I am honestly interested in an elaboration of this sentence "It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.". I don't understand how a national ID helps day to day as opposed to any other ID or how it limits bureaucracy or corruption. I don't ask this to start a political argument, I really want to understand your view as someone who has a national ID card.

To answer your question on corruption:

As a general rule in any developing country - the more paperwork needed, the more scope for there to be something 'missing', and that can open up the scope for missing pieces of ID and evidence to be overlooked - for a fee.

When you only need an ID card to get something done - that scope vanishes.

[mogandave]

You are able to do all of those things because you are really smart. I like to carry my driver license with me because I’m not that bright, and when I want to rent a room, or drive a friend home, or use a credit card, or go in a secure building or whatnot, I am not smart enough to talk the people into taking me at my word that I am who I claim to be. That said, I don’t find carrying a wallet or keeping track of it all that difficult. Of course, I’ve been doing it since I was a kid, and I wear trousers that have pockets, that may be why it seems so easy to me. Have you tried trousers with pockets? Perhaps a European man-bag? Maybe you can find something really stylish that is easy for you to keep track of.

I lost my wallet once about thirty years ago, but I’ve had cars stolen twice and broken into five times. When your car is stolen or burglarized, how do you rent a car? When you file the police report to try and recover the car, what do you say when they ask you for your driver license? Of course, leaving it in the car does make it convenient for the guy that steals it, he can just check your license and he knows where to return the car when he’s finished with it.

So explain again how much different the information you had to provide to get a passport and driver license is from what you would have to provide to get a national ID?

You seem to be getting very worked up over this.

To answer your first paragraph, I guess I am smart enough to know in advance that I will be renting a room, renting a car or entering a secure building and to bring the requisite ID necessary. Just because you don't mind carrying a wallet doesn't mean I should have to.

To answer your second paragraph, I have never had a car stolen or burglarized. In fact, my keys are usually left in my unlocked car. As to what I would say to the police, they would simply ask my name and date of birth and the records pop right up on their computer, including my picture.

Now, for your final paragraph. You don't seem to get the concept. It is not about not giving the government any information about me. They have a compelling interest to know if someone has a right to enter the country (passport) or whether someone is qualified to drive safely (drivers license). A universal ID is just a vehicle to gather information on everyone for the government to use for what they feel is for our own good. I think I should decide if I want to give them that information or opt out by not driving or traveling or whatever a specific ID is for. If everyone has to give the information by law then opting out makes you a criminal.

Who is to say what some politician will decide is in our best interest to have on a government database tomorrow. The Thai database has information on blood type which could be sensible but most of the world does just fine without it, not to mention when they see that at a hospital they will either ignore it making the info pointless, or they will assume it is correct and that some bored government data entry clerk didn't make an error. They also keep track of your religion. That information in government hands has not historically turned out very well and I really see no reason the government needs that info other than some politician wanted to know. So, what is the next bit of information that some politician will require all citizens to provide? Sexual orientation, medical conditions? It isn't a very big stretch to see local politicians or cops using this information to treat people in different ways based on what is in the database.

I am under the impression that your only interest in this topic is to force your view on others rather than have a rational discussion, and to try to belittle them if they don't agree with you. I have no interest in that.

Back to my original question to samran, I am honestly interested in an elaboration of this sentence "It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.". I don't understand how a national ID helps day to day as opposed to any other ID or how it limits bureaucracy or corruption. I don't ask this to start a political argument, I really want to understand your view as someone who has a national ID card.

So you don't mind having to have ID. You just don't wan't to have to carry it around, that's fine. The government already has the info.

You are nothing if not amusing, you right- wingers crack me up.

[Trembly]

Thailand is a docile police state. Any one with coherent ideas concerning non-compliance will have already gone underground and adopted the 'sleeper' stance to such a degree that not having an ID card would be silly and naive.

My attitude towards the ID card is akin to Samran's.

[chrisinth]

Not everyone has a driver license and or a passport.

Isn't a passport just a national ID? I would much rather carry an ID card around than a passport.

Wait, I think there are black helicopters circling overhead.....

Your logic is a little bit flawed. Of course not everyone has a passport or drivers license because they are not required by every citizen, they are voluntary and are only required if you wish to avail yourself of the privileges they confer. Neither is a compulsory national ID that is required of every living person in a country.

Personally, I don't carry any ID with me, be it passport, drivers license, or national ID. My drivers license is kept in my vehicle and my passport is only used to cross international borders. I see no reason to carry a government issued document on me at all times and have the worry of misplacing it and the bureaucratic hassles to replace it if lost.

My simple question was what benefits samran was referring to when he wrote " It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption."

As my country does not have a national ID card, Iam, as I said, curious as to what was meant.

You can dismiss me with your little quip about black helicopters but your snide remark just gives credence to those who wish to limit the depth to which other people (government) have control over their lives. I simply asked for more information on samran's positive views of a National ID. I made no negative arguments against one. My not accepting that a national ID is wonderful without question provoked a belittling comment from you as if questioning the motives or wisdom of those in government makes me a conspiracy nut. People like you in government are exactly why I question government.

As for your black helicopters circling over your head. Why don't you wave your hand out the window, maybe I will wave back. :-)

Can I ask if you are single?... In fact do you have no living relatives or friends? Carrying some form of ID is, IMHO, a responsible step so that, in the event of an accident or worse, your ID will allow emergency services to contact those who might be worring about you.

Very good point Rob, and in addition, if ID cards were a requirement, it would be a good place to display your blood type as well.

For those that aren't worried that this may affect their rights to privacy that is..............

[Theoutsider]

As a Thai citizen, it doesn't bother me. It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.

Living in the west, they can track you down quite easily if they really wanted to even without an ID card, so I might as well have one and enjoy the benefits of having one.

I am curious as to what benefits you actually get with a national ID card as opposed to any other type of ID that is voluntary such as a passport or drivers license.

You can drive a moped with an ID card. With no need a driving licence. If your Thai.

Proves your a Thai national, see hill tribes.

Can you travel domestic with one if your Thai?

[samran]

As a Thai citizen, it doesn't bother me. It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.

Living in the west, they can track you down quite easily if they really wanted to even without an ID card, so I might as well have one and enjoy the benefits of having one.

I am curious as to what benefits you actually get with a national ID card as opposed to any other type of ID that is voluntary such as a passport or drivers license.

You can drive a moped with an ID card. With no need a driving licence. If your Thai.

No you can't. You still need a motorbike license.

[astral]

I was talking to a group of people in Singapore.

They could not understand how I can manage without an ID card.

[Theoutsider]

As a Thai citizen, it doesn't bother me. It makes life easier when dealing with day to day government interactions and has reduced the potential for over excesses of bureaucracy and in my opinion, for corruption.

Living in the west, they can track you down quite easily if they really wanted to even without an ID card, so I might as well have one and enjoy the benefits of having one.

I am curious as to what benefits you actually get with a national ID card as opposed to any other type of ID that is voluntary such as a passport or drivers license.

You can drive a moped with an ID card. With no need a driving licence. If your Thai.

No you can't. You still need a motorbike license.

Not what is saw.

You learn something new every day. thank you TV.

Well it look like the Thai police are very flexible.

Who would of thought.

[mogandave]

I was talking to a group of people in Singapore.

They could not understand how I can manage without an ID card.

So how do.you come and go from Singapore without ID?

[Tim207]

Thanks samran. That was all I was looking for. Your corruption point is very interesting.

[Tim207]

So you don't mind having to have ID. You just don't wan't to have to carry it around, that's fine. The government already has the info.

You are nothing if not amusing, you right- wingers crack me up.

That is a very small slice of what I said and ID is not the same as national ID. Your ideology blinds you, and again with your little snide comments.

You are obviously one of those fanatical liberals who thinks anyone who does not adhere doggedly to their party line is a lesser being unworthy of consideration. I suppose it is nice for the weak minded to accept everything their masters tell them is right (oops, make that correct not right. I don't want your eyes to cloud over and start frothing at the mouth) without question. It is the manipulation of people like you that gave rise to leaders such as Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler. Oddly enough, we probably share similar views on several political issues as I am not blinded by ideology. The difference is, I come to my own conclusions rather than accept unquestioningly. I realize you think that you have come to your own conclusions but judging by this thread you have little capacity to consider other peoples view points or even accept that there could be valid viewpoints other than your own. If we go back to the beginning of this, my asking for more information caused you to insinuate I am a conspiracy nut. My wanting to weigh pros and cons for myself prompted you to insult and marginalize me. In each subsequent post you have used the same tactic. You have provided no reasoning in favor of a National ID other than trying to confuse ID and universal national ID and claiming you don't mind carrying it so I shouldn't mind it. Your only real discussion tactics are attempts at confusion and insults. You show yourself as nothing but an ideology lapdog.