Military: Arms Seized By Red-Shirt Protesters Missing

[webfact]

Military: arms seized by reds missing

Olan Lertrattanadamrongkul

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Among the Army's weapons confiscated by red-shirt protesters in April 2010, only one M-16 rifle has been returned to the military, the rest are still missing, Army spokesman Sansern Kaewkam-nerd said in testimony yesterday.

The missing weapons included 25 Tavor rifles, four M-16 rifles and 39 shotguns, he said in testimony before the House of Representative's sub-committee on political development and mass communication.

The weapons belonging to the Army were confiscated by red protesters during the bloody protest in April 2010. They were displayed on the red-shirts' stage at Rajdamnern Avenue on the day, he said.

Deputy Transportation Minister Chatt Kuldiloke, who was at the protest, said he saw a number of war weapons seized by the protesters and shown on the stage, but all of the weapons had been returned to the police.

"I would have helped to find them," he told the sub-committee chaired by the opposition Democrat's MP Watchara Petthong. Chat said the authorities employed excessive force to handle the situation, using armoured vehicles and other heavy war equipment to crack down on the protesters.

In other countries, anti-riot police were seen to be enough to handle such a protest, he said.

Sansern argued the weapons and armoured vehicles were necessary for security officials to

protect themselves as the protesters were equipped with war weapons.

The military did not fire live bullets at the protesters but shot into the air to frighten them, he added.

It remained unclear whether the deaths, notably in Wat Prathumwanaram, were caused by the military, he said, and noted that the military had clear evidence that "men in black" were involved in the protest.

The evidence was absolutely different from the Department of Special Investigation's (DSI), released earlier, he said.

The protest leaders might not have known about the existence of any men in black, or might have known but turned a blind eye to them, he said.

The handling of the protest by authorities was a subject for debate in Thailand, with each faction blaming the other for the harsh treatment of protesters while being too lenient with supporters.

Senator Kamnoon Sitthisa-marn said yesterday in the Senate the Administration Court had ruled last week that the Somchai Wongsawat government's handling of the protest on October 7, 2008, was too harsh and had caused the deaths of some protesters.

Police chief Adul Saengsingkaew said the police had decided to appeal the court's verdict and would take the case as a lesson.

In a separate development, Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday the Democrats would hold a major rally at Lumpini Park on Sunday.

The rally would be a special episode as he would reveal the truth about the men in black

during the political turmoil of 2010. There would be a presentation about the group, Abhisit said.

Abhisit also mentioned his book, "The Colourless Truth", would be launched soon.

-- The Nation 2012-10-09

[looping]

Which other country in the world would allow demonstrators to confiscate weapons from the army, and then wield them on a stage set up in the center of the capitol???

And yet they claim that the govt was heavy handed.

Every time I read statements from the red shirts, their mentality continues to amaze me.

Like Thaksin, the bullies claim to be bullied!

[asiawatcher]

Another example of Thailand's inability to maintain law and order. Oooh the reds took our weapons, I want them back... but they have only returned one weapon in 60 confiscated from 'troops'? Give me a break. And they need a hearing and wasted court time over this? Arrest the leaders and get them to have them returned or surely they will be used again in dire circumstances.

[Curt1591]

Which other country in the world would allow demonstrators to confiscate weapons from the army, ...

Exactly!

[ianf]

"The bullies claim to be bullied" ...... Just like Lance Armstrong ...... Just like my ex Thai wife! I think if you researched Thaksin (or Armstrong) you would find that they are both socio-paths. These people lie and cheat their way into positions of power, and it is a psychological condition that Thaksin displays in his many actions. These people are dangerous for the world because they are unable to comprehend the severity of their actions and behaviours. If you study Lance Armstrong you'll see the similarities. Those not involved in the cycling world do not know just how much power he had and how much mayhem he created. They have the ability to make people believe them but if you can see behind the facade then you'll know just how bad these peeps are.

[moe666]

"The bullies claim to be bullied" ...... Just like Lance Armstrong ...... Just like my ex Thai wife! I think if you researched Thaksin (or Armstrong) you would find that they are both socio-paths. These people lie and cheat their way into positions of power, and it is a psychological condition that Thaksin displays in his many actions. These people are dangerous for the world because they are unable to comprehend the severity of their actions and behaviours. If you study Lance Armstrong you'll see the similarities. Those not involved in the cycling world do not know just how much power he had and how much mayhem he created. They have the ability to make people believe them but if you can see behind the facade then you'll know just how bad these peeps are.

What does lance Armstrong have to do with this thread. By the way how many drug test did he pass.

Does lance have a few of the missing M-16s

Edited October 9, 2012 by moe666

[virtualtraveller]

This article reveals everything that is wrong with this, Army allowing weapons to be 'confiscated' or at least taken off them. Reds displaying them on stage, failing to audit where they have stored them (or return them) yet denying there was any armed people among them. Accusing the army of being violent against them when they themselves managed to disarm the army.

[lonestarmango]

"The bullies claim to be bullied" ...... Just like Lance Armstrong ...... Just like my ex Thai wife! I think if you researched Thaksin (or Armstrong) you would find that they are both socio-paths. These people lie and cheat their way into positions of power, and it is a psychological condition that Thaksin displays in his many actions. These people are dangerous for the world because they are unable to comprehend the severity of their actions and behaviours. If you study Lance Armstrong you'll see the similarities. Those not involved in the cycling world do not know just how much power he had and how much mayhem he created. They have the ability to make people believe them but if you can see behind the facade then you'll know just how bad these peeps are.

WHat does your ex wife (Thai) or Lance have to do with this article? Lance was tested hundreds of times. I don't know about your ex. The fact is that the red Shirts stole the weapons and nobody knows where they are TIT...

[fareastguy]

This subject is going around & around so many times now I'm getting dizzy.. & bored.

It was a dis-organised protest that should never have been allowed to mass in numbers as it did, it then got way out of control & ended with a deadly crackdown.

Shootings, deaths & mistakes made by all concerned, put the history books away & move on!

People will always correctly blame the other side, because there was blame on both sides, so it will never end !

But lets not drag this again & again into the limelight, learn & move on.

[FOODLOVER]

The red police allowed the red criminals to get away with the theft of war weapons. They probably stole some bicycles as well and caused a few divorces during this orchestrated peaceful "Shoot in". Makes perfect sense.

[Buchholz]

What could possibly go wrong by Red Shirts being in possession of an arsenal?

.

[saltandpepper]

What could possibly go wrong by Red Shirts being in possession of an arsenal?

.

We might know soon enough, unfortunately!

[FOODLOVER]

What could possibly go wrong by Red Shirts being in possession of an arsenal?

.

Holy crap!

[Buchholz]

Deputy Transportation Minister Chatt Kuldiloke, who was at the protest, said he saw a number of war weapons seized by the protesters and shown on the stage

the ever-obedient Chatt in the Thaksin Orders, Pheu Thai Follows thread...

Thaksin Tells Pheu Thai Ministers To Resign Party-List MPs

http://www.thaivisa....party-list-mps/

Pheu Thai MP Chat Kuldilok (above), who is the Deputy Transport Minister in the Yingluck Cabinet has resigned from his Party-list MP status today.

He is being replaced by the next one down on the Party-list, at number 62, it's actor-turned-politician Danuporn Punnakant (below far left in one of his movie posters).

Ex policeman Chat is a loyal employee of Thaksin,recently he received a 3 month suspended jail sentence for defaming Mr Jurin ex Health Minister of the Democrat party and is currently being sued for damages in the Civil court.

He is involved in the recent Rayong burial spin even though he's retired from the police and his daughter is apparently the current beau of Panthongtae.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Buchholz

[ramrod711]

In other countries, anti-riot police were seen to be enough to handle such a protest, he said.

Yes, but this is Thailand, the police only obey the Thaksin clan. They shoot gas cannisters at yellow shirts, red shirts are exempt. In any other country, the chief of police would have been dismissed for not clearing up that protest. I doubt that anyone would have been killed if the police had acted before red shirts had erected the barriers and been incited by Jatuporn and the rest, to burn Bangkok

[TomTao]

There are enough weapons and ammunition there to do some serious damage, the question is, who has them and where are they? Are they somewhere in Bangkok still, somewhere up north in the red shirt heartland or are they in the hands of seperatists down south?

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

[AleG]

This makes me wonder, what happened to that actor caught with some of the stolen weapons?

What's-his-name?

Ah, found it.

Methee was arrested in April this year at the height of the red-shirt rally. His vehicle was found to be carrying weapons, some of which included a Tavor assault rifle that red protesters had seized from a soldier.

By the way, saying that soldiers only fired into the air is just plain BS.

[whybother]

The military did not fire live bullets at the protesters but shot into the air to frighten them, he added.

This is one of the problems with this debate.

Was this statement talking about a specific incident/day? It obviously wasn't the case for the whole protest. So is it a reporting issue, where they leave out specifics, or was Sansern talking about a protest in a different universe?

The same goes for the existence of the MIB. It is clear to everyone that they were there. It is clear to everyone that they supported the red shirts. The TRCT reported that the MIB had the support of the red shirts, which seemed obvious from many other reports as well. Not all red shirts would have known about them. Maybe, initially, not all the red shirt leaders knew about them, but by the end of the protests they would have known a lot more about them. But there is still denial from red shirts, their leaders, their supporters, and PTP MPs that they didn't exist. They're in the same universe as Sansern.

[wcoast]

Thailand showed incredible compassion, civility and restraint in the midst of these protests. Seems like some commented it would have been better handled with a slaughter. The usual tactic of 'civil' -k0ff- nations.

[Buchholz]

There are enough weapons and ammunition there to do some serious damage, the question is, who has them and where are they? Are they somewhere in Bangkok still, somewhere up north in the red shirt heartland or are they in the hands of separatists down south?

I'd go with the highest probability as being option (1).

Regarding the potential serious damage...

The missing weapons included 25 Tavor rifles

The TAVOR-21 is an Israeli bullpup assault rifle chambered for 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition with a selective fire system, selecting between semi-automatic mode and full automatic fire mode.

The TAVOR-21 provides carbine length, but rifle muzzle velocity. The bullpup design is also used to minimize the silhouette of shooters and to maximize effectiveness in turning corners in urban warfare. It has ejection ports on both sides of the rifle so it can easily be reconfigured for right or left-handed shooters.

It is based on advanced ergonomics and composite materials in order to produce a more comfortable and reliable rifle. The TAVOR-21 is waterproof and lightweight. The weapon has a built in laser and MARS red dot sight; one of the main advantages of having a built in system is that the weapon does not have to be zeroed after each use.

Action: Gas-operated, rotating bolt

Rate of fire: 750-900 rounds/minute

Muzzle velocity: 910 meters/second (2,986 feet/second)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21

[Ricardo]

I love the use of the word "confiscated", by the surely-embarrassed Army-spokesman, as if there was anything legitimate about the protesters having stolen the soldiers' weapons.

[Buchholz]

The military did not fire live bullets at the protesters but shot into the air to frighten them, he added.

This is one of the problems with this debate.

Was this statement talking about a specific incident/day? It obviously wasn't the case for the whole protest. So is it a reporting issue, where they leave out specifics, or was Sansern talking about a protest in a different universe?

I took his comment as to absolutely be referring specifically to the incident on April 9, 2010 when these still-missing weapons were stolen

: -- Among the Army's weapons confiscated by red-shirt protesters in April 2010,

Further depiction of the arsenal at the time with the current Deputy Agriculture Minister in Yingluck's Cabinet directing the theft.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Buchholz

[Nickymaster]

In other countries, anti-riot police were seen to be enough to handle such a protest, he said.

Yes, but this is Thailand, the police only obey the Thaksin clan. They shoot gas cannisters at yellow shirts, red shirts are exempt. In any other country, the chief of police would have been dismissed for not clearing up that protest. I doubt that anyone would have been killed if the police had acted before red shirts had erected the barriers and been incited by Jatuporn and the rest, to burn Bangkok

Spot on. Couldn't agree more!

[whybother]

The military did not fire live bullets at the protesters but shot into the air to frighten them, he added.

This is one of the problems with this debate.

Was this statement talking about a specific incident/day? It obviously wasn't the case for the whole protest. So is it a reporting issue, where they leave out specifics, or was Sansern talking about a protest in a different universe?

I took his comment as to absolutely be referring specifically to the incident on April 9, 2010 when these still-missing weapons were stolen

That may be the case, but with the following sentence talking about the Wat, it is unclear and can clearly be taken out of context. Red shirt supporters WILL take it out of context and base their whole opposition on such "ridiculous statements".

[Buchholz]

The military did not fire live bullets at the protesters but shot into the air to frighten them, he added.

This is one of the problems with this debate.

Was this statement talking about a specific incident/day? It obviously wasn't the case for the whole protest. So is it a reporting issue, where they leave out specifics, or was Sansern talking about a protest in a different universe?

I took his comment as to absolutely be referring specifically to the incident on April 9, 2010 when these still-missing weapons were stolen

That may be the case, but with the following sentence talking about the Wat, it is unclear and can clearly be taken out of context. Red shirt supporters WILL take it out of context and base their whole opposition on such "ridiculous statements".

They probably will and that's fine. I think it's very clear that the shooting in the air was in reference to the specific incident when the weapons were stolen. They clearly did not shoot in the air at other times. The Red Shirt supporters will just have to have their justifiable slamming of The Nation journalistic endeavors suffice in this case.

,

[TheKrayTriplet]

Out of the 5 stories in this one piece may I suggest a closer look at the supposed main story: Arms seized by red shirts still missing says Army spokesman Sansern Kaewkam-nerd.

• This supposed action took place two and a half years ago and nothing has been said about the missing "arms" since then - until Sansern needs a diversion from his evidence.
  
• The arms abandoned by the Red Shirts were given back to the police - see photos. Paperwork shouldn't be hard to check to see what was handed back.
  
• The Army has previous in this. A very relaxed attitude to "guarding" their war weapons. Remember the the loss of grenades and RPGs that happened back in 2010 that Gen. Anupong eventually concluded were stolen by his own soldiers and sold on the borders
  
• The complete cock up regarding the handing out and re-requisition of ammunition not used during 2010
  
• How convenient to blame the red shirts
  
• My, what a reliable army mouthpiece Sanserm is. Still maintaining the army didn't shoot at protesters and the "fact" that it was still unclear as to whether the army was responsible for the deaths at Wat Prathumwanaram - how contemptible an attitude is that?
  

Anti-government protesters return weapons they snatched from security at Parliament to the police in Bangkok April 7, 2010. "Red shirt" protesters briefly occupied the grounds of Thailand's parliament on Wednesday as they stepped up pressure on the government to call an election. Hundreds of protesters, who have already forced the capital's main shopping district to close since Saturday, pushed through a thin line of riot police, but then left after about 20 minutes and massed outside the building. (REUTERS/Sukree Sukplang)

Weapons seized from Thai riot policemen by Red Shirt protesters are returned after clashes at Thaicom station in Pathum Thani on the outskirts of Bangkok on April 9, 2010. Thai security forces used tear gas and water cannon against anti-government protesters who stormed a television station on the outskirts of Bangkok, an AFP reporter witnessed. (ROSLAN RAHMAN/AFP/Getty Images)

Photos from Boston Blog, http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html

Now the Tavors seem to be conspiculously missing. As they would probably form the more modern part of the soldiers equipment I would have thought that BIG questions would have been asked at the time by the army if these had gone missing in the alleged numbers - 25? - Not two and a half years later in an committee hearing.

And for this we rely on the word of the army spokesman, though this seems to be a popular trend on here. So if you believe him about the guns do you also believe the rest of his stories?

By the way, looking forward to Abhisits book the The Truthless Colour, or some such nonsense.

[Buchholz]

^ if you're going to post photos, please don't imbed over-sized ones that distort the page

[whybother]

• My, what a reliable army mouthpiece Sanserm is. Still maintaining the army didn't shoot at protesters and the "fact" that it was still unclear as to whether the army was responsible for the deaths at Wat Prathumwanaram - how contemptible an attitude is that?
  

Buchholz ... I rest my case.

[whybother]

Out of the 5 stories in this one piece may I suggest a closer look at the supposed main story: Arms seized by red shirts still missing says Army spokesman Sansern Kaewkam-nerd.

• This supposed action took place two and a half years ago and nothing has been said about the missing "arms" since then - until Sansern needs a diversion from his evidence.
  
• The arms abandoned by the Red Shirts were given back to the police - see photos. Paperwork shouldn't be hard to check to see what was handed back.
  
• The Army has previous in this. A very relaxed attitude to "guarding" their war weapons. Remember the the loss of grenades and RPGs that happened back in 2010 that Gen. Anupong eventually concluded were stolen by his own soldiers and sold on the borders
  
• The complete cock up regarding the handing out and re-requisition of ammunition not used during 2010
  
• How convenient to blame the red shirts
  
• My, what a reliable army mouthpiece Sanserm is. Still maintaining the army didn't shoot at protesters and the "fact" that it was still unclear as to whether the army was responsible for the deaths at Wat Prathumwanaram - how contemptible an attitude is that?
  

<snipped photo>

Anti-government protesters return weapons they snatched from security at Parliament to the police in Bangkok April 7, 2010. "Red shirt" protesters briefly occupied the grounds of Thailand's parliament on Wednesday as they stepped up pressure on the government to call an election. Hundreds of protesters, who have already forced the capital's main shopping district to close since Saturday, pushed through a thin line of riot police, but then left after about 20 minutes and massed outside the building. (REUTERS/Sukree Sukplang)

<snipped photo>

Weapons seized from Thai riot policemen by Red Shirt protesters are returned after clashes at Thaicom station in Pathum Thani on the outskirts of Bangkok on April 9, 2010. Thai security forces used tear gas and water cannon against anti-government protesters who stormed a television station on the outskirts of Bangkok, an AFP reporter witnessed. (ROSLAN RAHMAN/AFP/Getty Images)

Photos from Boston Blog, http://www.boston.co...n_thailand.html

Now the Tavors seem to be conspiculously missing. As they would probably form the more modern part of the soldiers equipment I would have thought that BIG questions would have been asked at the time by the army if these had gone missing in the alleged numbers - 25? - Not two and a half years later in an committee hearing.

And for this we rely on the word of the army spokesman, though this seems to be a popular trend on here. So if you believe him about the guns do you also believe the rest of his stories?

By the way, looking forward to Abhisits book the The Truthless Colour, or some such nonsense.

The first photo is the ONE that was handed back. The second photo is of the reds still in possession of them.

[Mosha]

Confiscate? I think they meant stole. If someone takes my wallet at gunpoint, it's not confiscated, it's stolen.