Getting Sick Of Dogooders

[jamescollister]

I am a bit bored sitting at home with a twisted ankle, so thought I would post this.

I get sick and tired of reading posts in Thai forums etc about the poverty of rural Issan. Just read one in the Ubon section of face book, yank wants to come and help the rural poor to have a better [meaning US type] life. He then sites an article about some US Jewish group that came to help the down trodden. The people were so poor that the kids didn't have shoes to wear at school. Guess that makes me poor, as I have no shoes, only one pair of work boots.

Westerners come here and see what they want to see, not what is real.

Poor farmers living in rough stilt huts, no running water or flushing toilets, everyone sleeping in one room. Poverty at it's best.

Well it's what they are used to and no one stops them from building a bigger, better house. Most westerners get a mortgage for 25 years to buy a home, rural Thais would laugh at you if you suggested they take out a 5 year loan to upgrade a house. If they want more room, they get family to come round and build it themselves, out of what's laying around.

No one is starving, they grow their rice, keep chickens and eat what they have been eating for 100s of years. Just because an outsider considers eating frogs, bugs etc as a sign of poverty, doesn't make it so. It is what they like and even if they found a million dollars laying around, they would still want to eat what they were brought up on.

If for some reason you fall on hard times, the family will help or you can go to the local Wat and get feed by the monks.

There is free health care no one is left dying in the street. Kids get free education, free milk, plus most of the schools around here supply a free lunch if needed.

Of course most Thai's don't have a lot in the way of cash, to buy consumer goods, why, because they won't work. Your average rice farming family plants and harvests their rice, it's enough to feed them for the year and any left over they sell for cash. Maybe 3 months work per year, do they then go get a job [ there is no shortage of work] no they swing in hammocks go fishing, have party's.

Poverty is when people don't have enough to eat, a home to live and no work to earn a living.

Live in a very remote area of Issan and I see none of that here. What I see is men drinking Lao Kow, going fishing or hurting with muzzle loading rifles. Others that do work or do more then the bare minimum on their farms, buy cars.

The west runs on the idea that life is about work and possessions, rural Thais think life is about happiness and you don't need a lot of money to be happy, they are the real hippy's of the world. Jim

[cooked]

Well I agree 100%, I haven't sprained my ankle and should be getting on with the chicken coop. A side effect of poverty is poor education, superstition, ignorance about health issues (I had to explain about STDs and HIV to a couple yesterday, I was surprised that they knew so little).

I have seen enough mud floored shacks with chickens wandering in and out, a TV in the corner and empty Lao Kow bottles everywhere. Building projects that have been abandoned, .. moan moan. Anyway, poverty isn't what it's cracked up to be, I grew up in it myself and what disturbed me most was the lack of interest for anything remotely cultured or well done.

get well soon

[ThailandBert]

I must agree. A lot of them don't want to change especially the older ones. My wife's Grandparents still live they did 40 years ago. I offered to build them a small house and they refused as the one they had was perfectly adequate and they didn't need another.

[redroo]

If people can still buy sigarets and drink alcahol, they are not poor.

I see many thai's driveing brand new big pickup trucks worth over 1 mill baht

I think thai's like too play the poor me card,

wich was one's true 20 years ago but has fadded over the years.

If you can wast money on drugs and alcohol(samething)gamble,

buy whitening cream,drive a car and work very little...you are not poor

and don't even know what its like to be poor,

because you would be saveing your pennies for that rainy day.

[ThailandBert]

Not many pick ups that are over 1 million Baht that I have seen. They also will be hocked up to the eyeballs and then some so can honestly play the poor Thai as they pay every Satang they earn for the truck.

I presume English isn't your first, second or third language ?

[jak2002003]

I came across some Christian charity raising money to buy kids beds and saying how poor they are and neglected because they have to sleep on the floor! Then when they got the beds they got infested with mites and they had to burn the lot!

The fact is that the children and adults were fine sleeping 'on the floor'. They slept on the traditional roll out mattresses, and when they got old or dirty they threw them away and got new ones. The floor was always clean as they took the dirty shoes off outside, and swept and mopped the floor often.

Some westerners are shocked at what they think is poverty, but in reality its just different cultures and lifestyles.

I also went to some ex pat even where a religions group was collecting money to buy kitchen equipment for hill tribes..........like micro waves and food processors!!!!!

Also many of these people that are so concerned with the poverty and helping poor children seem to be various religious charities, that also teach them about what ever religion they are trying to spread. They will take pictures of the 'bad living conditions' and also some of some cute sad looking children, then post them on their website to get money form their country by people thinking they are helping poverty.

In the end most of the money goes on big buildings, and houses, new trucks and cars, eating out in expensive restaurants and religious teaching materials, and very little actually gets to the people.

I am not materialistic and have very few possessions, no car, motor bike or expensive clothes. I don't even own a watch. But I am very happy and not poor. I also keep chickens for eggs (and they are good pets).

[somo]

I have yet to come across a cold, lonely or hungry Thai. There are plenty back in the UK though.

The elderly are also well cared for here not stuffed in nursing homes and forgotten by their family.

The kids also have so much more fun and freedom here than back home where they are not even allowed out alone because everyone is paranoid and living in fear.

[mikhill]

I agree totally. Been married to an Isaan girl for abut 25 years and now live in Roi Et (a village). I have had a house here for 20+ years and the family and extended family are very close. The point is that they have been surviving hore very nicely for centuries without any assistance from us. A falang recenctly came with his "girlfriend" and thought that her house was a barn beacause its mainly tin.

Sorry I've forgotten what the story was (too much Chang)

Will look again tomorrow.

Mike

[maccaroni man]

I agree 110% and it is not just in Issan, while i was living in Bali the annual USA poverty report came out and it made me cringe with embarrassment as indo was on the list becuase of an arbitrary monetary standard set by only who knows whom or where. At that time much could be done with 1.00 dollar a day yet washington believed otherwise.

[canuckamuck]

It is not really right to be upset with people whose hearts are in the right place but are truly misinformed. Lots of charities miss the mark, but it isn't the well intending donors that are to blame, it is those who direct the funds. There are many people doing good and useful works in their own small way. But these people are under the radar. The money generally flows to the big NGO's with advertising budgets.

If you really want to support someone doing good, it is best to get to know them first. Most NGO's spend a high percentage of donated money on the organization.

There are poor people in Thailand, just visit a few remote northern villages and share a few meals. You will see some sad stories there.

[jamescollister]

It is not really right to be upset with people whose hearts are in the right place but are truly misinformed. Lots of charities miss the mark, but it isn't the well intending donors that are to blame, it is those who direct the funds. There are many people doing good and useful works in their own small way. But these people are under the radar. The money generally flows to the big NGO's with advertising budgets.

If you really want to support someone doing good, it is best to get to know them first. Most NGO's spend a high percentage of donated money on the organization.

There are poor people in Thailand, just visit a few remote northern villages and share a few meals. You will see some sad stories there.

Think there is a big diffenence between being poor and being impoverished. Grow up in Canada, UK and OZ, 6 kids, father often worked 2 jobs to keep a roof over our head and food on the table.

How many people in the west would be happy to own their own house and have a generally secure food supply, free health and education for there kids.

Not saying it's perfect, but it is not Ethiopia, people are happy with their lot. They don't need some one from the west to teach them to want Mac Donald's and all the western goods to be happy.

They have lived happy contented lives for years, no starvation that I know of, but we [the west] want to make everyone in our own image.

Get them of the land and into the factories, living in high rise units, work or sleep on the streets. Jim

[Gweiloman]

Once a fisherman was sitting near seashore, under the shadow of a tree smoking his beedi. Suddenly a rich businessman passing by approached him and enquired as to why he was sitting under a tree smoking and not working. To this the poor fisherman replied that he had caught enough fishes for the day.

Hearing this the rich man got angry and said: Why don’t you catch more fishes instead of sitting in shadow wasting your time?

Fisherman asked: What would I do by catching more fishes?

Businessman: You could catch more fishes, sell them and earn more money, and buy a bigger boat.

Fisherman: What would I do then?

Businessman: You could go fishing in deep waters and catch even more fishes and earn even more money.

Fisherman: What would I do then?

Businessman: You could buy many boats and employ many people to work for you and earn even more money.

Fisherman: What would I do then?

Businessman: You could become a rich businessman like me.

Fisherman: What would I do then?

Businessman: You could then enjoy your life peacefully.

Fisherman: What do you think I’m doing right now?

Edited October 18, 2012 by Gweiloman

[Gary A]

The people in Issan had no idea they were poor until they got televisions. Now they watch the soap operas and realize that some Thai people are incredibly wealthy. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing. Life goes on for them and a full belly is happiness.

[MAJIC]

Around the world,Poverty and Religeon often go hand in hand!

Edited October 18, 2012 by MAJIC

[mike123ca]

My father in-law 30-40 years ago has about 60 rai of farm land.

He has a wife and seven children. As the children grow into adulthood some move on and others stay with the farmland.

2 of the sons become policemen and 1 is a bus driver. The oldest son was a house builder, but due to a sever leg injury

he now 75% dependent on farming with the odd job doing construction work.

He also has 3 daughters, the oldest marrying a poor farmer, the middle one never married nor went to high school.

The youngest is my wife and we live in the city.

The father has parceled the land into equal sizes for each of his children. Since, we are living in the city, we let her brother

who was hurt to farm on our land. But in about 10 years, I'll like to retire and move to the country. Which means we'll be reclaiming the land back. The big problem I see are the brother and sisters who are dependent on farming.

Now they have children who are married or getting to that age. Since their parents have been poor, these children have only a basic government education and no real job skills. they are now sharing the same land their parents are currently using. The total land to farm is very small considering how large the family has grown over the years.

As the population continues to grow, land will become more valuable and scarce. The cost of basic foods will also greatly increase in price

because there will be more people, but will there be an increase in food supplies?

I'm sure the poverty is out there. What I do fear is if the population is not controlled and land reform doesn't happen in the near future,

I suspect that even the poor will have a difficult time just trying to feed themselves.

[citizen33]

Isaan continues to be the poorest of the Thai regions, but - as implied above - various forms of social support have always existed in local communities. What strikes me though is that Isaan people are not all the same, and many are very different from the lao khao-swilling bumpkins mentioned in the OP. In my village many people commute to work in a nearby city, work in public sector jobs in the locaiity, combine farming with building, or have some other money-making concern on the side. Some do seem to work pretty hard and have material trappings to match. The eminent Thai economist Ammar Siamwalla has written about an upwardly mobile group of 'rice managers' ('pujatkhan na'), who combine running various small businesses with farming, and can be contrasted with the subsistence farmers popularly associated with Isaan (chao na). I came across a very interesting article recently which argues that the redshirt activists are drawn mainly from this group as opposed to the very poor.

http://www.polis.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/Staff/naruemon_and_mccargo.pdf

At the same time, demography and patterns of employment are changing and there is evidence that older people in Northern

and northeastern rural communities now have less social support than in the past. It does seem that some elders lack social support and are struggling - some of these are living in genuine poverty.

[NeverSure]

Around the world,Poverty and Religeon often go hand in hand!

I don't appreciate that. Around the world, communism and poverty often go hand in hand, and they are athiests for a large part. See N. Korea vs LOS. Most Western countries are primarily of some religion. In the ME, it's Islam but many are wealthy with oil. I could go on, but you have no right denigrating those who are religious. Such comments can only be divisive.

[MAJIC]

Around the world,Poverty and Religeon often go hand in hand!

I don't appreciate that. Around the world, communism and poverty often go hand in hand, and they are athiests for a large part. See N. Korea vs LOS. Most Western countries are primarily of some religion. In the ME, it's Islam but many are wealthy with oil. I could go on, but you have no right denigrating those who are religious. Such comments can only be divisive.

I wasn't denigrating anyones religeon,far from it,people make their own choices what they believe in,I was merely stating an observation,the same as you were with the Communist link with Poverty.

[swissie]

The people in Issan had no idea they were poor until they got televisions. Now they watch the soap operas and realize that some Thai people are incredibly wealthy. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing. Life goes on for them and a full belly is happiness.

Can't fully agree with that. Thanks to Television, the realization that they are "poor" will sink in quickly. It awakens certain desires as far as material goods is concerned. Not surprising, a family member will often be sent off to see to it, that some of those desired goods find their way to the family back in the Isaan. We know the rest of the story.................!

After that, the story of "The Fisherman" quoted above by GWEILOMAN comes into effect. It's basically a simplefied description of the inner workings of capitalism.

As things unfold in "the western world", (Social Safety Net's for the old being deluted to the point of non-existance), it might well be, that the the system of "the young take care of the old" as we have it in Thailand, will prove to be far superior compared to the Safety-Nets western style.

A frank word about NGO's: For the most part they do good (or try too). But it's very hard to separate the white sheep from the black. It's not easy for a western sponsor to separate the two from a distance. Especially Cambodia seems to be a very good pasture for the black sheep kind. One wonders why there are still white collar criminals that bother to forge checks, as long as the playing field in form of a foundation (NGO) is wide open in Cambodia.

Cheers.

[happylarry]

My wife's sister, husband and family live in a nice but small two bedroom house but there were no seats of any sort in the lounge area and they all sat on the floor with their necks craning to watch the tv.

Doing my do-gooder bit I went out with my wife and I bought them a nice settee and delivered it back to them. To my knowledge it never got used at all and has now disappeared altogether.

It always seemed an effort to get a cup of coffee when I visited so I bought them a nice water heater....once again it only gets switched on when I go there.

I have stopped wasting my money now because they will always live as they always have done.

Having said that they are talking about buying a pick up in a couple of months , so its not because they cant afford to have these things, they just choose not to.

HL

Edited October 19, 2012 by happylarry

[Litlos]

Maybe a bit of balance to the OP. I regularly go up to Isaan and stay at the TGF's house. OK it was a shed when I first went up there and I have donated to improve it, voila not to much Baht and dam_n near the best house in the village. Still no settee, but after the last lot of rice checks a very nice table and chairs on area at the tiled area at the front of the house, where every body going past can see everything. The TGF's family are rice farmers and her sisters husband is a bit active as village something or other. He also goes fishing, every day, the sister wakes up at about 5am and commences cooking food for the monks, he heads down to the river to pulls his fish traps, back again in time for a feed at 8am and then wanders off about 9am to "farm rice". No idea what farm rice means if not planting or harvesting, but must be the right thing as even for a pleb like me it is good tasting rice. Afternoon he comes back about 4PM for a short while, then back to set the fish traps for overnight, gets back about 6:30pm. Will generally have a glass of beer with me at night, then wanders off to talk to friends, amuse his grand daughter whatever. In 4 years I have seen him hit the booze twice, followed each time but much swearing the next day of never again. In season he takes the muzzle loader with him and brings back a few Nok for the pot.

Then there are a few of the others around the village who do not do as much and complain about the cost of everything, preferably with a few belts of booze under the belt. This reminds me of working with my uncle the wheat farmer in Australia, he reckons that the farmers doing it the hardest are always the ones propping up the bar at the local pub. So some things seem to cut across racial boundaries, yes there are always losers and there are others who quietly get one with it. In general the village I go to seems to have a pretty hardworking bunch of people there, and not to many of the loser types, but go to a different village up the road and it is very different. So maybe the loser types tend to gravitate together as misery loves company. But generally in the TGF's village it is always interesting and people will help each other out. Not the nicest place in the world and there are still buffalo in the center of the village, so pretty basic. But it is a place I feel safe and welcome.

Never seen any missionary types up there and long may they avoid the place. If I do see any missionary types I will be advising the locals that they taste like pork (LOL).

Cheers

[canuckamuck]

This is an interesting thread, although I think the conclusion that is being developed (that no help is needed) is a bit myopic. Everywhere in the world you have people who cannot work for physical and mental reasons. There are orphans, widows and the elderly, and often times they do not find a nice place in the village social net. There are people who have debilitating conditions and cannot afford the procedure that would make them well again. Many of these people can receive some type of relief if discovered by the right organizations.

Thailand may not be facing any famine, food is abundant and living conditions are tropical.

A simpler way of life is possible here which has all of the appearance of hard living to the eyes of a westerner. But this does not mean all charity should end.

A very basic problem of getting help to where it is needed in a meaningful way is the fact that; people in the west cannot tell the difference between sensible country living and hardcore poverty. This is because if they lived the same way in America they would either die from the elements or be arrested for some zoning violation. What really is need is for people who can tell the difference to get involved in these kind of organizations and help direct the good intentions of the donors to the hands of the truly destitute.

[Scotswahay]

Thanks James for opening such an interesting & uplifting topic. It's so nice to see so many content farangs living here in Thailand for a change. I've told so many friends who visit Thailand regularly (that is Pattaya & Puket....Not real Thailand) that they really have no idea what REAL Thailand is all about. I live in Essan & personaly think it's a little piece of heaven with some of the nicest people I have ever met in my worldly travels. Every day I see the kids in the village playing together with a big mix of ages. They have very little in western kids conceptions of what you need to be happy materialisticly but I see happy happy kids, great imaginations & very high respect for their peirs & elders.

Thank you all who have made the effort to reflect on our beautiful quality life here in the true land of smiles.

Joe.

[cooked]

Hey, we got this far with hardly any Thai bashing!

[NeverSure]

I don't know if this is even on topic, but I do donate to a US organization which is based in my state. I know where the money goes and that it does good. Every year they plan a trip to some 3rd world destination, put out the word in advance, and arrive to do free cleft palate surgeries. They are doctors and nurses and anesthesiologists and helpers. Each team member pays his own travel expenses so not even that comes from my donations. The medical professionals work for free of course.

When they arrive, the word has gotten out and they do dozens of surgeries, one after the other and they do them right. It of course it changes the patient's life forever. I think this is something which rather than try to change the culture, targets individuals who are truly helped.

[jamescollister]

Thanks James for opening such an interesting & uplifting topic. It's so nice to see so many content farangs living here in Thailand for a change. I've told so many friends who visit Thailand regularly (that is Pattaya & Puket....Not real Thailand) that they really have no idea what REAL Thailand is all about. I live in Essan & personaly think it's a little piece of heaven with some of the nicest people I have ever met in my worldly travels. Every day I see the kids in the village playing together with a big mix of ages. They have very little in western kids conceptions of what you need to be happy materialisticly but I see happy happy kids, great imaginations & very high respect for their peirs & elders.

Thank you all who have made the effort to reflect on our beautiful quality life here in the true land of smiles.

Joe.

Joe, I have 2 kids, both born in Australia.

Kids in Thailand have a real childhood, not farmed off to strangers in day care centers, so mum and dad can go to work. They play in the street with other kids, watched over by Aunts,1st, 2nd, 3rd cousins and the village as a whole. They are not forced to stay in house in front of a TV because the streets are to dangerous to venture out. That's why we came here and when the kids get big enough they can choose, a simple life here or the bright lights of Sydney or London. That is their life, my part is to give them the happy child hood, so they can grow to be happy adults.

Material wealth does not bring contentment, if you have a secure life style, food to eat and a place to sleep, what more do you need. Jim

[Thaddeus]

Material wealth does not bring contentment, if you have a secure life style, food to eat and a place to sleep, what more do you need. Jim

Indeed.

[pigeonjake]

great posting jim, ill say well done to you wise man,

this when you think of it, im 52, when i was growing up we could play outside, i didnt have much when i was growing up, non of us did, we lived in a council street, nothing wrong with that, but what im getting at, me and all my mates could play outside from dawn till dusk,

our parents didnt have to worry about us, there was allways someone in the street looking,

i see the same here with our kids, they play all over the village,

but what i do see are happy kids allways smiling, they dont have things,

but like when i was growing up, give them a rope and a tree and youve got months of fun on that swing,,lol,

life is what you make it,

i had children in england sorry still do have children in england, my daughter is at uni, and my son is 15,

they never had the childhood that i had growing up, being able to run about free as i put it, yes we did go out fishing and shooting as much as we could, but they couldnt do what me and my freinds could do,

and what i see in thailand in the village is just what i was able to do with my freinds be free and enjoy my childhood,

i sit and watch them play and it makes me happy to see them, im allways sat there with a smile on my face,

as jim says being happy isnt about money, what youve got in your house, how big your house is,

infact a house is that a house without happyness,

it only becomes a home with happyness,

great thred jim, very thought provoking

brings back many many happy memories for me,

thank you,, jake

[theslime]

Thanks James for opening such an interesting & uplifting topic. It's so nice to see so many content farangs living here in Thailand for a change. I've told so many friends who visit Thailand regularly (that is Pattaya & Puket....Not real Thailand) that they really have no idea what REAL Thailand is all about. I live in Essan & personaly think it's a little piece of heaven with some of the nicest people I have ever met in my worldly travels. Every day I see the kids in the village playing together with a big mix of ages. They have very little in western kids conceptions of what you need to be happy materialisticly but I see happy happy kids, great imaginations & very high respect for their peirs & elders.

Thank you all who have made the effort to reflect on our beautiful quality life here in the true land of smiles.

Joe.

Joe, I have 2 kids, both born in Australia.

Kids in Thailand have a real childhood, not farmed off to strangers in day care centers, so mum and dad can go to work. They play in the street with other kids, watched over by Aunts,1st, 2nd, 3rd cousins and the village as a whole. They are not forced to stay in house in front of a TV because the streets are to dangerous to venture out. That's why we came here and when the kids get big enough they can choose, a simple life here or the bright lights of Sydney or London. That is their life, my part is to give them the happy child hood, so they can grow to be happy adults.

Material wealth does not bring contentment, if you have a secure life style, food to eat and a place to sleep, what more do you need. Jim

Man do you ever leave the Village? Try the Mountain lifestyle, no Medicine, no Work, no School, not enough to eat. Evidently you have never seen Poverty. Next time in BKK try walking around Klong Toey. I can,t believe no one has challenged your Myopic View. In Buddism we are taught to put up with our lot, so just because you don,t hear them complain doesn,t mean its all Beer and Skittles. If a Family,s Old Man drinks all the money or Mum Gambles it, couldn,t that reduce people to Poverty which you said in the OP that you don,t see, only Happy children and Contented Serfs .

[theslime]

I have yet to come across a cold, lonely or hungry Thai. There are plenty back in the UK though.

The elderly are also well cared for here not stuffed in nursing homes and forgotten by their family.

The kids also have so much more fun and freedom here than back home where they are not even allowed out alone because everyone is paranoid and living in fear.

Man you should get out more.