Tefl Course, Questions And Comments

[bangkokburning]

I have read that a TEFL course is very helpful to a teacher, but not neccesarily helpful in landing a job nor does it allow the teacher to command more money.

So, it appears the only value is that it perhaps provides the classroom with a better teacher and perhaps provides the teacher with a bit more control of his environnent and his sanity - thereby allowing the teacher to remain working as opposed to quitting.

These courses seem to start around 30-45k baht and at those prices I am really questioning their value. Amortized the first (2nd?) year, that is easily ten percent of a starting teachers salary off the top.

Next, I have serious issues with some of these courses sending "student teachers" into classrooms in which students have paid for "qualified" teachers. Does not seem ethical. I seriously doubt the courses I looked at are offering students to come in fir free lessons so they business is also making money on the student as well as the teacher.

Finally, I question the competence of some of the teachers of these courses. Do they solidly deliver teaching and classroom.skills and not simply basic public speaking and presentation skills (which I personally would be qualified to teach).

Comments please.

Edited November 9, 2012 by bangkokburning

[doontp]

I got my TEFL Certificate in the US in June of 2008 from a company named, "Oxford Seminars." It was very helpful to me because I didn't understand how it was possible to teach English if I didn't understand how to speak their language. I didn't make sense to me because I had never taught before.

As part of the training, we taught to a group of foreign university students who did not have to pay anything. Their presence allowed us to practice how to teach ESL and they gave us good advice and feedback. That was the best part of the course. The TEFL teacher was also pretty good.

I arrived in Thailand during Oct of '08 and visited six schools over a two-day period. Each specifically asked to see my TEFL Certificate and college degree.

[Loaded]

OP

"Next, I have serious issues with some of these courses sending "student teachers" into classrooms in which students have paid for "qualified" teachers. Does not seem ethical. I seriously doubt the courses I looked at are offering students to come in fir free lessons so they business is also making money on the student as well as the teacher."

If you think 'some of these courses' are doing that, there's no need to consider them. Anyway, why would a school pay for a teacher from a training course to conduct one observed class. This doesn't make sense and I think your assumption is wrong. You could prove me wrong though if you present some actual specific evidence.

[bangkokburning]

Some years ago I was considering a school in Hat Yai. The price seemed fair and the marketing was agreeable enough. Then I found out I was obligated to wear a tie and teach their course for a month. I am uncertain honestly but doubt seriously these were offered to students gratis or as bonus. It seemed as though the course was being sold at both ends. To that, just did not seem right to me...if I am good enough to have my skills sold at full freight while I am still going thru the course, seems like these courses may have very dubious value other than the piece of paper.

I am looking for evidence otherwise - not many responses thus far.

Edited November 10, 2012 by bangkokburning

[bangkokburning]

I think the followup to my post believes that I'm looking to get paid while in training. Not true. I am questioning schools selling my training to students, especially at full cost.

The costs as well for classroom learning seem quite expensive. It is not as though any tech equipment is involved. Fifty thousand baht seems a great deal of money to sprnd on a b25k job.

[NoshowJones]

I think the followup to my post believes that I'm looking to get paid while in training. Not true. I am questioning schools selling my training to students, especially at full cost.

The costs as well for classroom learning seem quite expensive. It is not as though any tech equipment is involved. Fifty thousand baht seems a great deal of money to spend on a b25k job.

When I did my TEFL in Bangkok, there was far too much emphasis on grammar, and the training was geared to teaching in language schools. I wanted to teach between grades 5 and 10 in a public school. The only good thing the TEFL course did for me was to provide an impressive looking certificate when I graduated. But forget all this talk about everyone who completes the course will graduate, if you are not up to standard, you will be told just that before the course ends and probably given the chance to start again from the beginning of the next course without paying an extra fee. Also, if you are in competition for a teaching job, and you have the TEFL certificate, and the others do not, you will probably get the job, that's provided of course, you and all the other applicants have Bachelors degrees.

[bangkokburning]

Ok , thanks for that.

[Loaded]

I think the followup to my post believes that I'm looking to get paid while in training. Not true. I am questioning schools selling my training to students, especially at full cost.

The costs as well for classroom learning seem quite expensive. It is not as though any tech equipment is involved. Fifty thousand baht seems a great deal of money to sprnd on a b25k job.

You are incorrect. I don't believe you are looking to get paid while training. My comment was to highlight that you had made an assumption without any evidence to support it. When challenged you made a vague accusation against a course in Hat Yai that 'requested you to teach their course for one month' a few years ago. Without evidence, I am highly skeptical of your accusation.

I have noticed that the price of TEFL courses has risen from 35 to 50 K in just a couple of your posts. You are inconsistent as well as vague. An unreliable witness m'lud.

[bangkokburning]

So its standard for students to be allowed to sit in classes for free while student teachers practice their newly learned skills. The students are offered such courses free - that's all you needed to say. Ok got it.

Feel much better.

Some are 35, 50 and more than 60k - no?

[ivan96822]

So its standard for students to be allowed to sit in classes for free while student teachers practice their newly learned skills. The students are offered such courses free - that's all you needed to say. Ok got it.

Feel much better.

Some are 35, 50 and more than 60k - no?

"Some are 35, 50 and more than 60k - no?"

Unclear: Are you referring to the price of the TEFL certificate, how much the teacher's monthly salary is, or _________________________?

Please clarify.

[diggledunc]

Did my TEFL at Text and Talk Khon Kaen. Very good, no videos all with a superb lecturer who had a lot of experience teaching privately and in government schools. They got students in at no charge for the practice and assessments. The students came so that they could have extra practice. The age range was over different classes about 10-60. Even had some parents come to beginners classes so that they could help their children who accommpanied them. I thought I got a lot out of it, not just technique but also understanding how Thais learnt English.

[joorakee]

In my humble opinion doing a TEFL course might be worth considering especially for non-native speakers intending to teach English abroad (and not holding a Bachelor's or Master's degree in English studies or a similar field). Whether it pays off to invest in such a course is another question. I believe that each additional qualification can be helpful in getting a job (sometimes the same job) with slightly better conditions (e.g. 40k per month instead of 30k) and/or in a more prestigious institution, but a good command of the language is more important than any certificate being just a piece of paper.

[mancub]

In my humble opinion doing a TEFL course might be worth considering especially for non-native speakers intending to teach English abroad (and not holding a Bachelor's or Master's degree in English studies or a similar field). Whether it pays off to invest in such a course is another question. I believe that each additional qualification can be helpful in getting a job (sometimes the same job) with slightly better conditions (e.g. 40k per month instead of 30k) and/or in a more prestigious institution, but a good command of the language is more important than any certificate being just a piece of paper.

Agree with your sentiment in the last sentence . Think you'll find ,however , that in Thailand that "piece of paper" is all important . Applies equally to Thais ,in all walks of life . As Possum1931 pointed out ,you will need to show a Bachelor degree or equivalent also . A TEFL is of no use otherwise ,in obtaining a teaching position . .

[diggledunc]

In my humble opinion doing a TEFL course might be worth considering especially for non-native speakers intending to teach English abroad (and not holding a Bachelor's or Master's degree in English studies or a similar field). Whether it pays off to invest in such a course is another question. I believe that each additional qualification can be helpful in getting a job (sometimes the same job) with slightly better conditions (e.g. 40k per month instead of 30k) and/or in a more prestigious institution, but a good command of the language is more important than any certificate being just a piece of paper.

Agree with your sentiment in the last sentence . Think you'll find ,however , that in Thailand that "piece of paper" is all important . Applies equally to Thais ,in all walks of life . As Possum1931 pointed out ,you will need to show a Bachelor degree or equivalent also . A TEFL is of no use otherwise ,in obtaining a teaching position . .

Yes I also agree with the last sentence but I would make further points if I may. I am an ex-surveyor who had to write very good business English when I was working. Following my previous comment, it was doing the TEFL that helped me to use my already good standard of English to much better effect when teaching English privately now. Whether I was a good surveyor or not is immaterial to teaching English. How could that point me in right direction to start teaching Present Simple tense first and then knowing where to go after. Just as a test of yourself could you define the four parts of the present tense and know when to teach them and when Thais learn them. Then if they have learnt anything at school you can find out what they know and at what stage of learning they are.

I agree with the economics of doing it and would say you need to see a return. The other consideration is though job satisfaction and happiness. Yes I thought I could teach English. With hindsight I now know that without TEFL I could not do what I am doing now. I also know that it would have been a lot harder and stressful.

Every man to his own but I think it is wrong to put the TEFL down.

[simon43]

Then I found out I was obligated to wear a tie...

You mean you usually don't wear a tie???!!!

You have a lot to learn about Asia and perceptions of teachers. I teach in Myanmar and I wear a tie... In fact, I wear a very smart tie, shirt, trousers and shoes.

I started my teaching in Myanmar earlier this year on a tax-free salary of 48,000 baht/month. I was perceived by my employers and the parents of my students to be the best teacher in the school ... because I wore a tie and - unlike the other teachers - I was always very smartly dressed.

My current salary is now 87,000 baht tax-free, not because I'm great at teaching, but because I am perceived to be great at teaching by those who can influence my salary....

It's all about white faces and ties....

Simon

[aussiebebe]

Then I found out I was obligated to wear a tie...

You mean you usually don't wear a tie???!!!

You have a lot to learn about Asia and perceptions of teachers. I teach in Myanmar and I wear a tie... In fact, I wear a very smart tie, shirt, trousers and shoes.

I started my teaching in Myanmar earlier this year on a tax-free salary of 48,000 baht/month. I was perceived by my employers and the parents of my students to be the best teacher in the school ... because I wore a tie and - unlike the other teachers - I was always very smartly dressed.

My current salary is now 87,000 baht tax-free, not because I'm great at teaching, but because I am perceived to be great at teaching by those who can influence my salary....

It's all about white faces and ties....

Simon

You've done well for yourself! How'd you manage that? Many teflers would consider living on a compound in Saudi for less you that, I'm sure Myanmar is much nicer.

[peanut]

I did the CELTA at ECC Bangkok. Great course, and the students were a mix of Thais and UN refugees who studied for free. No need to wear a tie either

[simon43]

I'm sure Myanmar is much nicer.

Don't be so sure! A recent Quality of Living Survey http://www.mizzima.c...iving-hell.html classifies Yangon as 'one of the most unlivable cities on the planet' and the worst in south-east Asia.

But my comment was made to indicate that your salary/work package is not just about your paper qualifications or even how good you are at teaching. In many cases, the ultimate decision about whether you are a great teacher or not is made either by your students or - more importantly - by the affluent parents of the children that you teach, and they may base their decisions on your overall appearance and manner, rather than your teaching skills.

So speaking 'The Queen's English', wearing a long-sleeved shirt with cuff-links, silk tie etc and behaving like an English gentleman at all times seems to generate the most favourable results, at least for me.

Of course, if you are American, then your mileage may vary

Simon

Edited December 14, 2012 by simon43

[TEFLife]

I would like to start off with saying that you answered the first part of you question yourself. You are doing your pupils a disservice by not doing a TEFL course. Teaching in a school where English is their first language is very different to teaching English as a foreign Language. This is why most schools recognize the value of a TEFL certificate.

TEFL schools have costs to cover and many run with small numbers in each course in order to keep the course personal and are value for your money. Sometimes you get what you pay for! So it is worthwhile looking at what the course offers and not always just looking at the bottom line and what it will cost you. So ask questions before you decide.

I do agree that businesses should not be double dipping and charging students to receive lessons from other students who are doing teaching practice. So find out and ask the question - are the lessons done at schools or given for free? Then you can decide if you want to join that course or not, the choice is yours. Sometimes there are other factors that need to be taken into account as well.

Finally, like most schools and universities, there are great teachers and others who may not be as good, however, I would like to believe that most people go into teaching as they have the interest of education and do their best to give students a well prepared lesson.

[iluvbeaches]

I have read that a TEFL course is very helpful to a teacher, but not neccesarily helpful in landing a job nor does it allow the teacher to command more money.

So, it appears the only value is that it perhaps provides the classroom with a better teacher and perhaps provides the teacher with a bit more control of his environnent and his sanity - thereby allowing the teacher to remain working as opposed to quitting.

These courses seem to start around 30-45k baht and at those prices I am really questioning their value. Amortized the first (2nd?) year, that is easily ten percent of a starting teachers salary off the top.

Next, I have serious issues with some of these courses sending "student teachers" into classrooms in which students have paid for "qualified" teachers. Does not seem ethical. I seriously doubt the courses I looked at are offering students to come in fir free lessons so they business is also making money on the student as well as the teacher.

Finally, I question the competence of some of the teachers of these courses. Do they solidly deliver teaching and classroom.skills and not simply basic public speaking and presentation skills (which I personally would be qualified to teach).

Comments please.

I am not a TOEFL teacher so whatever I say maybe hearsay however most of my friends who done of course I believe it's called Chichester located somewhere in ding dang Bangkok really feel like it was worth the money because if you wanted job they can get you one and they feel they felt that it was a lot more comfortable going in front of a roomful students after having a month of expertise doing just that. From the teachers I have met that went through this course I think they are much better teachers I have of course sat through many English lessons in different schools as I was contemplating doing this however I feel like those teachers that don't have a TOEFL degree are somewhat less quality teachers As they lack some systematic course setup abilities that are work through in such courses.

But some people have a hard time finding quality jobs regardless. I think it is more important that the individual is outgoing and sociable/likable. Then employers will hire your for better jobs rather than people who seem shady, unsociable or sadly look scummy.

Apologies for the poor spelling and grammar I am getting used to this tablet.

[Loaded]

I have read that a TEFL course is very helpful to a teacher, but not neccesarily helpful in landing a job nor does it allow the teacher to command more money.

So, it appears the only value is that it perhaps provides the classroom with a better teacher and perhaps provides the teacher with a bit more control of his environnent and his sanity - thereby allowing the teacher to remain working as opposed to quitting.

These courses seem to start around 30-45k baht and at those prices I am really questioning their value. Amortized the first (2nd?) year, that is easily ten percent of a starting teachers salary off the top.

Next, I have serious issues with some of these courses sending "student teachers" into classrooms in which students have paid for "qualified" teachers. Does not seem ethical. I seriously doubt the courses I looked at are offering students to come in fir free lessons so they business is also making money on the student as well as the teacher.

Finally, I question the competence of some of the teachers of these courses. Do they solidly deliver teaching and classroom.skills and not simply basic public speaking and presentation skills (which I personally would be qualified to teach).

Comments please.

I am not a TOEFL teacher so whatever I say maybe hearsay however most of my friends who done of course I believe it's called Chichester located somewhere in ding dang Bangkok really feel like it was worth the money because if you wanted job they can get you one and they feel they felt that it was a lot more comfortable going in front of a roomful students after having a month of expertise doing just that. From the teachers I have met that went through this course I think they are much better teachers I have of course sat through many English lessons in different schools as I was contemplating doing this however I feel like those teachers that don't have a TOEFL degree are somewhat less quality teachers As they lack some systematic course setup abilities that are work through in such courses.

But some people have a hard time finding quality jobs regardless. I think it is more important that the individual is outgoing and sociable/likable. Then employers will hire your for better jobs rather than people who seem shady, unsociable or sadly look scummy.

Apologies for the poor spelling and grammar I am getting used to this tablet.

TOEFL is a language proficiency exam. I'm sure you mean TEFL. This is just a clarification in case it adds some confusion.

[iluvbeaches]

I have read that a TEFL course is very helpful to a teacher, but not neccesarily helpful in landing a job nor does it allow the teacher to command more money.

So, it appears the only value is that it perhaps provides the classroom with a better teacher and perhaps provides the teacher with a bit more control of his environnent and his sanity - thereby allowing the teacher to remain working as opposed to quitting.

These courses seem to start around 30-45k baht and at those prices I am really questioning their value. Amortized the first (2nd?) year, that is easily ten percent of a starting teachers salary off the top.

Next, I have serious issues with some of these courses sending "student teachers" into classrooms in which students have paid for "qualified" teachers. Does not seem ethical. I seriously doubt the courses I looked at are offering students to come in fir free lessons so they business is also making money on the student as well as the teacher.

Finally, I question the competence of some of the teachers of these courses. Do they solidly deliver teaching and classroom.skills and not simply basic public speaking and presentation skills (which I personally would be qualified to teach).

Comments please.

I am not a TOEFL teacher so whatever I say maybe hearsay however most of my friends who done of course I believe it's called Chichester located somewhere in ding dang Bangkok really feel like it was worth the money because if you wanted job they can get you one and they feel they felt that it was a lot more comfortable going in front of a roomful students after having a month of expertise doing just that. From the teachers I have met that went through this course I think they are much better teachers I have of course sat through many English lessons in different schools as I was contemplating doing this however I feel like those teachers that don't have a TOEFL degree are somewhat less quality teachers As they lack some systematic course setup abilities that are work through in such courses.

But some people have a hard time finding quality jobs regardless. I think it is more important that the individual is outgoing and sociable/likable. Then employers will hire your for better jobs rather than people who seem shady, unsociable or sadly look scummy.

Apologies for the poor spelling and grammar I am getting used to this tablet.

TOEFL is a language proficiency exam. I'm sure you mean TEFL. This is just a clarification in case it adds some confusion.

Yes sorry I guess it is common to use then interchangeably but you are correct they mean different things.

[joorakee]

I would like to believe that most people go into teaching as they have the interest of education

If it was true, we wouldn't read posts like "...until something better opens in my field" so often on this forum.

[utalkin2me]

I took one of these courses and highly recommend you NOT taking one. I am all about ROI, and it just isn't there in my opinion. If you want to be a better teacher, hell, that is easy.... just research yourself. This is just another way that savvy white folk have been conning others for years... they sit on a beach sipping margueritas somewhere while you give them all you money to hope to attain an annoying and mentally draining job that pays next to nothing.

Edited February 8, 2013 by utalkin2me

[utalkin2me]

I would like to believe that most people go into teaching as they have the interest of education

If it was true, we wouldn't read posts like "...until something better opens in my field" so often on this forum.

People devote their time to things for money; and I don't know why there is always this problem with admitting that.

[diggledunc]

I took one of these courses and highly recommend you NOT taking one. I am all about ROI, and it just isn't there in my opinion. If you want to be a better teacher, hell, that is easy.... just research yourself. This is just another way that savvy white folk have been conning others for years... they sit on a beach sipping margueritas somewhere while you give them all you money to hope to attain an annoying and mentally draining job that pays next to nothing.

Maybe you took a bad TEFL course. Please read my previous post.

My lecturers never sat on a beach drinking margueritas, they didn;t make enough. there are courses near beaches and maybe they aren't that good but I think it is wrong to tar all with the same brush. No beaches in Khon Kaen.

ROI I agree with you. The ROI can last for years so depreciate the cost as you will and as it suits your situation.

The private teaching angle is not mentally draining. For teaching to commercial companies such as banks you can get up to 1,000 bhat per hour.

If people's horizons or perhaps monetary requirements mean they have to work in schools so be it. Some schools are c""p so are good. Make the right decision.

I would suggest in the nicest way ROI is blinkered. What I also got out of it was how to speak to Thais in English knowing what they could and couldn't understand when they want to speak English with me. My ROI is not just monetary.

Research yourself, I have to say because I learnt in KK how Thais learn English I really don't know how easy it would be for people starting to know where and how to research. Like I said before it gave me a big advantage knowing when to teach the twelve parts of tense and when at schools which had decent teachers they learnt them.

Sorry you seem to have had a bad experience and if I had the same as you maybe not getting as much as you want out of it I would criticise too.

Every learning place I would think is different.

Myabe the moral is don't learn by the beach.

[diggledunc]

I would like to believe that most people go into teaching as they have the interest of education

If it was true, we wouldn't read posts like "...until something better opens in my field" so often on this forum.

People devote their time to things for money; and I don't know why there is always this problem with admitting that.

Good point. I think you have hit on a good point. That's why I did TEFL so I could earn money successfully and be happy doing it. That is the monetary ROI. Do supplementary benefits not count for anything like teaching police's children. You can have friends when or if you need them and people willing to help if you have a problem.

Seems to me 'until something better opens in my field' means a great disservice and lack of interest with regards to the people being taught.

One thing I need is a typing course. What are the benefits. Hopefully it would stop people criticisng my spelling. Joke apart I know everybody has different views.

Good luck if you do teach English, hope you find what you want.

[utalkin2me]

I took one of these courses and highly recommend you NOT taking one. I am all about ROI, and it just isn't there in my opinion. If you want to be a better teacher, hell, that is easy.... just research yourself. This is just another way that savvy white folk have been conning others for years... they sit on a beach sipping margueritas somewhere while you give them all you money to hope to attain an annoying and mentally draining job that pays next to nothing.

Maybe you took a bad TEFL course. Please read my previous post.

My lecturers never sat on a beach drinking margueritas, they didn;t make enough. there are courses near beaches and maybe they aren't that good but I think it is wrong to tar all with the same brush. No beaches in Khon Kaen.

ROI I agree with you. The ROI can last for years so depreciate the cost as you will and as it suits your situation.

The private teaching angle is not mentally draining. For teaching to commercial companies such as banks you can get up to 1,000 bhat per hour.

If people's horizons or perhaps monetary requirements mean they have to work in schools so be it. Some schools are c""p so are good. Make the right decision.

I would suggest in the nicest way ROI is blinkered. What I also got out of it was how to speak to Thais in English knowing what they could and couldn't understand when they want to speak English with me. My ROI is not just monetary.

Research yourself, I have to say because I learnt in KK how Thais learn English I really don't know how easy it would be for people starting to know where and how to research. Like I said before it gave me a big advantage knowing when to teach the twelve parts of tense and when at schools which had decent teachers they learnt them.

Sorry you seem to have had a bad experience and if I had the same as you maybe not getting as much as you want out of it I would criticise too.

Every learning place I would think is different.

Myabe the moral is don't learn by the beach.

I don't know if I had a "bad experience". Knowing what I know now, I would not do it again would be the proper way to put it. It isn't that I didn't get what I wanted out of it, I literally got no gain from it whatsoever, yet am doing well if that matters. I just think there are more important things than TEFL courses I guess, such as landing a good job.

ROI in this case is based on salary attained with vs without the course. I could not give a holy flying F if I am a better teacher. Did the course earn me more money is the question we need to be asking. The answer for me was no, plain and simple. Maybe not true for you.... ok, so you disagree. Not anything else to say.

Edited February 9, 2013 by utalkin2me

[Loaded]

I could not give a holy flying F if I am a better teacher.

There are far too many foreign teachers in Thailand with this attitude. Imagine depending on a teacher with this attitude and these language skills to educate your child. If I overheard one of my children's teachers speaking like this, I would be very angry. After living here many years, I know this attitude is fairly common - sadly. One of the biggest problems with English teaching in Thailand is the significant proportion of foreign flotsam it attracts.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Loaded

[brewsterbudgen]

I did the CELTA at ECC Bangkok. Great course, and the students were a mix of Thais and UN refugees who studied for free. No need to wear a tie either

Me too. CELTA is a really useful course, although not for those who only want to teach young kids.