Non-Thai People Working On Farms ?

[tebee]

Now I know there is a ban on foreigners working on farms, but just how well is this enforced? Does it also apply to other Asian nationals?

I ask this as my wife is talking about buying a farm and has been looking at several in Chaiyaphum. . Now she is not a farm girl, though she was brought in a city house on a large plot, where they grew their own vegetables and kept chickens and pigs. I've lived on farms, but never run one commercially although I did once run a hardy plant nursery.

So when I ask her who is going to do all the work that farming involves, she say it is no problem, the farms she is looking at are being run by Burmese workers, though she is planning on bring her sister over, who is a farm girl, as well.

When I ask her how do they manage to employ the Burmese, who I thought would also not be allowed to work, she says it is no problem, the local Thai's don't want to work on the farm, much preferring jobs in the city.

So is this law not applied to other Asians ? Or is it just not expeditious to not enforce it as the farms would not be able to function otherwise ?

[TommoPhysicist]

Don't even think of using your money.

[mccw]

I think they have a worker registration process where the farm owner/ employer must pay about 5000bht with lots of papers and stamps down the local labour office and then they're legal to work. This for Burmese and Cambodia only I think. Many employers don't bother with it unless the inspectors turn up. But Can be fined. I've seen the police and immigration descend on restaurants in CM looking for illegal workers so I does happen. Not sure how often out in the sticks though.

Many of the once "poor" small holding farm owners up north have turned in to little lords with 2 or 3 Burmese families living on their land doing most of hard work. That's the ones who are smart, save and invest; as oppose to the low kow drinking lottery wasters wishing on a Thaksin hand out.

Edited November 15, 2012 by mccw

[tebee]

It's not my money - she as got it by working very hard - she puts me to shame. She works 5 days a week running her department at the hospital, she also teaches medicine one day a week at one of the Universities. She also works for the health ministry examining and certifying TCM doctors, on her day off she does a clinic in China Town and in the evenings she does the packing and dispatching for my business!

She wants to move out of Bangkok after having her house and car ruined last year by being under a meter and a half of water for 7 weeks. Problem is she is going to have to give up all those jobs. We get some income from my business and have houses we rent out both in BKK and Europe, but it will still mean halving our joint income.

I think she has ideas about doing the same as minor lords you talk about, it seems strange that so few Thais seem interested in farming, at least one of the farms she has looked at is for sale because the owner wants to retire and no one in the family wants to take it on.

Edited November 15, 2012 by tebee

[mccw]

I have a plan to do similar like this also. Our aim is food, fuel and power sufficiency. We have rental property to pay for the kids school fees and things but figure the saving by simple life will leave us much better off actually. Any excess produce would just be a small bonus. It's more of a life style choice I think than business. Could to get 50-100k per year off a 10rai plot from what I've heard.

[mccw]

Maybe a bit more; but I wouldn't count on it. A lot depends on how quality the land; water source and other environmental things + what you do with it and i reckon really still need some one who knows what to do I think. Well I'm no expert but can research plenty; however I've got experienced extended family who can teach me and help co ordinate. I guess your wife has all this in hand. Still if i were you I'd be researching and asking her lots of questions to make sure she's thought it all out. Wouldn't want to end up buy some barren non irrigated corner of eesaan polluted by bare chemicals from previous thai dreamers.

Sounds like your sorted financially with houses for rent in Thai and EU so be nice to just take it easy with chill life after all that hard work.

[tebee]

It's not quite as good as it sounds, the three properties in Bangkok only produce about 18,000 per month and two have had bad tenants who didn't pay and left the place in such bad states we ended up paying 240,000 out to refurbish them. The European houses give a better rate of return, but there are a lot more expenses. The one I've had for a few years rents out for 14,000 per month but the actual income only works out at about 10,000 per month. Still we will have two more soon, one should be finished by the end of the month and the next by mid February..

I sell stuff online and my income varies wildly from month to month so it's a bit risky to rely on that , though I suppose we will still be making more than most Thai people.

I think we could probably live a simple life quite easily on that sort of money, problem is I need to be back in Europe several times a year, to sort out the houses and to do shows to promote my wares. She needs to come back here a least once every 6 months to keep her right of residence and airfares don't come cheap.

I will go very carefully through what she proposes, although my wife is quite financially savvy, she does let others mislead her sometimes. I would be very happy if my wife was to work a bit less, I might get to see her some more when I come over, but I don't think it's in her nature.

[Farma]

Forget the farming idea. Use her medical qualifications to set up a clinic. She'll get a better income that way.

[Mosha]

We use a Burmese family for tapping rubber. Visit any province on the western side You will see the same thing. They have to be registered, have a temporary passport, and work permits and visas. The permit is cheaper for them. Do not employ them if every thing is not in order. It's around a 50K fine. As a Farang, if caught, they'll enforce it.

[theslime]

I think they have a worker registration process where the farm owner/ employer must pay about 5000bht with lots of papers and stamps down the local labour office and then they're legal to work. This for Burmese and Cambodia only I think. Many employers don't bother with it unless the inspectors turn up. But Can be fined. I've seen the police and immigration descend on restaurants in CM looking for illegal workers so I does happen. Not sure how often out in the sticks though.

Many of the once "poor" small holding farm owners up north have turned in to little lords with 2 or 3 Burmese families living on their land doing most of hard work. That's the ones who are smart, save and invest; as oppose to the low kow drinking lottery wasters wishing on a Thaksin hand out.

Where do you get your facts, 2 or 3 Burmese familys living on the once poor farm, Bullshit . I can imagine you wasting your money on Booze and Bile like Jabber the Hut. My construct as opposed to your Bullshit

[Farma]

Let’s see, you’re talking about her giving up her govt job at say 32k ++ PM plus pension (if she’s done 20 years) and her 10 days a year govt holidays.

You would need a fairly large plot of land to equal that income especially if you’re paying wages. It’s a gamble as you would be going in feet first with no idea of the costs. You also have to buy the land.

She obviously has medical qualifications if she’s teaching and certifying. Setting up a clinic wouldn’t cost anywhere near the cost of buying the farm. It’s also something she knows.

She wouldn’t have to buy. Lease a building in a good location, make it look nice, register with MoPH, get some tools of the trade and watch the money flow in. She can pick and choose her clinic hours plus take holidays when it suits you both. I guarantee the income will be better than a farm.

[Mosha]

Maybe a bit more; but I wouldn't count on it. A lot depends on how quality the land; water source and other environmental things + what you do with it and i reckon really still need some one who knows what to do I think. Well I'm no expert but can research plenty; however I've got experienced extended family who can teach me and help co ordinate. I guess your wife has all this in hand. Still if i were you I'd be researching and asking her lots of questions to make sure she's thought it all out. Wouldn't want to end up buy some barren non irrigated corner of eesaan polluted by bare chemicals from previous thai dreamers.

Sounds like your sorted financially with houses for rent in Thai and EU so be nice to just take it easy with chill life after all that hard work.

I live in the sticks, and police temporary checkpoints are a regular occurrence checking the Burmese.

[tebee]

Let’s see, you’re talking about her giving up her govt job at say 32k ++ PM plus pension (if she’s done 20 years) and her 10 days a year govt holidays.

You would need a fairly large plot of land to equal that income especially if you’re paying wages. It’s a gamble as you would be going in feet first with no idea of the costs. You also have to buy the land.

She obviously has medical qualifications if she’s teaching and certifying. Setting up a clinic wouldn’t cost anywhere near the cost of buying the farm. It’s also something she knows.

.......

She works at a private hospital(one of those that caters to medical tourists mostly) better pay but no pension or paid holidays - the houses she was renting out are her pension plan.

She has been looking at buying an existing farm with some sort of track record of income. She would finance this by selling another of the Bangkok houses. I think she also likes the idea of being able to provide gainful employment to her sister, who used to be married to a farmer, but is now divorced and in somewhat reduced circumstances.

I've suggested a clinic to her, she is unsure whether there would be enough work for her in a rural area as she is not a normal doctor but a traditional Chinese medicine doctor. She has a full Chinese decree in this and has passed the test here too (probably because she writes the questions for the test here!) She is planing on keeping doing this as well, but as a side line much a she does the Chinatown clinic now, which only pays a nominal sum, half of which she spends on petrol getting there, but keeps her in contact with "real" patients.

I've

[mccw]

I think they have a worker registration process where the farm owner/ employer must pay about 5000bht with lots of papers and stamps down the local labour office and then they're legal to work. This for Burmese and Cambodia only I think. Many employers don't bother with it unless the inspectors turn up. But Can be fined. I've seen the police and immigration descend on restaurants in CM looking for illegal workers so I does happen. Not sure how often out in the sticks though.

Many of the once "poor" small holding farm owners up north have turned in to little lords with 2 or 3 Burmese families living on their land doing most of hard work. That's the ones who are smart, save and invest; as oppose to the low kow drinking lottery wasters wishing on a Thaksin hand out.

Where do you get your facts, 2 or 3 Burmese familys living on the once poor farm, Bullshit . I can imagine you wasting your money on Booze and Bile like Jabber the Hut. My construct as opposed to your Bullshit

I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods but this is Fang in Chiang Mai province. This from personal observation of the way my extended family operate. I say "poor" as what a westerner would look at as poor; where 30 years ago the community would help each other plant and harvest and live in very basic houses. Now they have Burmese like I say and have magaged to buy more land, lease land and build themselves nice houses. Not everyone has been this successful ofcourse - the gap seems to be between those who waste their money and those who were wiser, picking up land at good prices from those broken by pointless unproductive debt.

Think about they give free food and housing , ellectric, water + just 2or 3000bht pm per family to be available for general running; then can pick up part time workers for a 1-200bht per day at harvest and planting time.

Plenty arent at a level to have any live on land staff but many do just have 1 family , some 2, some more- just depends on how big thier operation.

Northern baanok is really quiet prosperous/ relatively speaking. I mean people have plenty to eat, happy, healthy, etc, simple life; I'm not meaning how much spending and malls they have.

I've not really been around eesaan but from what I've seen its really dry so maybe environmental factors mean its not like this over there.

I am not suggesting farming as a great business investment; but for the sufficiency life it is perfectly viable, if you live frugally and all the better/easer if you have some back up income. Personally I wouldn't be thinking to do it if I didn't have a decent alternative income since I intend to send kids to private school and still enjoy a few luxuries like cheese and travel. I don't drink anymore so that's a big saving. If I hadn't stopped already then all that extra spare time on my hands could of been a dangerous thing indeed.

To the OP- about needing travel many times a year- if you're buisiness isn't covering this comfortably and making healthy profits on top then perhaps time for a rethink. Maybe a root and branch reassessment of all your current costs to income is needed. Targeted to what makes what exactly rather than just a total lump pot point of view. So you can compare this to a totally new scenario of simpler life and slimed down business and income + what think what you actually need to live if stripped out all the "essentials" which may turn out no to be "essentials" at all.

A clinic as a side is not a bad idea. But costs can kill a nice idea if demand not strong enough to meet them. Maybe she could try first for private consultations, if she is more chinese specialist, through existing medical clinics or even beauty shops and traditional massage places etc. commission incentives;)

[Bluetongue]

Cambodians come over the border on spec at Ban Laem in Pong Nam Ron, Chantaburi province. They wait to be hired, if no-one does they have to go back. I think you need Thai Id and a Tabien baan plus maybe a property deed (not sure about last). They need a little paper book I presume that is the temporary passport another poster spoke of. I have seen Thais go over there on the same arrangement. Once hired most employers bring them back once a week to get a new stamp which costs 20 baht for each country. They aren't allowed out of the Amphur, they cant ride a motorbike or drive a car or get on a bus. Some employers prefer to pay a higher fee to keep them longer without them having to go back. The rate of pay is lower than what most Thai workers will accept. For seasonal work demands it is ideal and also basically they fill a gap that Thai workers are unwilling to fill. There are drawbacks, the language becomes a patois and they need supervision, from what I have seen without it they achieve little without direction. Also they get drunk and steal dogs.

Sorry some generalisations but that is the gist of it.

[Canada]

Question kind of related to this topic.

If you have a registered Usufruct on a piece of land, can you work on it? Like do your own tractor work and stuff??

[IsaanAussie]

There have been some very useful posts on this thread. I for one have learnt a lot. Thanks guys.

I am in Isaan and the land is dry and fallow through the dry season, but it doesnt not have to be as there is water available and with good management the land can be used year round. It is the labour issue that limits things. A situation that has got steadily worse over the last 5 years. Hopefully with the 2015 AEC start up and the borders opening, this can be helped and people willing to work will find it easier to gain entry.

[Bluetongue]

There have been some very useful posts on this thread. I for one have learnt a lot. Thanks guys.

I am in Isaan and the land is dry and fallow through the dry season, but it doesnt not have to be as there is water available and with good management the land can be used year round. It is the labour issue that limits things. A situation that has got steadily worse over the last 5 years. Hopefully with the 2015 AEC start up and the borders opening, this can be helped and people willing to work will find it easier to gain entry.

Maybe that would be the forerunner to treating them a bit better, as an addition to my previous comment their living and in particular transportation conditions are generally abysmal, the police seem to be very harsh on them (perhaps from long experience), and the Thai employers are friendly but kinda harsh at the same time. They also find it difficult to get medical treatment and there is no education or care for their children, I guess these are things the system would be very hard pressed to provide.

[mccw]

There have been some very useful posts on this thread. I for one have learnt a lot. Thanks guys.

I am in Isaan and the land is dry and fallow through the dry season, but it doesnt not have to be as there is water available and with good management the land can be used year round. It is the labour issue that limits things. A situation that has got steadily worse over the last 5 years. Hopefully with the 2015 AEC start up and the borders opening, this can be helped and people willing to work will find it easier to gain entry.

Maybe that would be the forerunner to treating them a bit better, as an addition to my previous comment their living and in particular transportation conditions are generally abysmal, the police seem to be very harsh on them (perhaps from long experience), and the Thai employers are friendly but kinda harsh at the same time. They also find it difficult to get medical treatment and there is no education or care for their children, I guess these are things the system would be very hard pressed to provide.

It's a different world man; no good projecting western human rights and health and safety wishes on to it.

1) plenty of Thais have to ride around whole families on back of pick ups or 4 or 5 on a single bike; so why should foreign labour be entitled to different standards? Or you like to impose restrictions on how every people choose to use their own vehicles?

2) economically free state healthcare is a very bad idea and all but most serious emergencies should be the individuals responsibility. Also these workers are not Thai citizens or tax payers so why should they be entitled? If concerned and since their wages are largely repatriated it should be down to the respective governments to reimburse Thai hospitals or provide some kind of insurance - but they will not; so down to the individual.

3) question of treatment; sure some good; some middle; some terrible but this is just humans. If they don't like it up to them to find another employer. It's already illegal to keep people against their will or to with hold wages so I think it's just fine how it is really.

If the immigration come checking permits regular then there is opportunity to speak out if under real hardship. But I expect most are glad to find work and better money than back home.

The great thing about Asia is freedom. Knock up a shop by any road side, build house how you like, cash labour and market, basically just get on with life and business with out every detail having a thousand rules and regulations/ mini beaurocratic dictators sticking their noses in at ever turn. I hope it never develops to be anything like half as ridiculas as the west. They have plenty other stupid things already mind with out the need for more- like rice pledging and minimum wage ngo mak

[Bluetongue]

Well I dont necessarily disagree with you MCCW as far as the gist of what you are saying but

1. Thais ride around as families in pickups but generally not two storeys and hanging out the back, front and sides whilst the vehicle rocks and rolls its way around. Nor do I generally see them squashed into a 6 wheel, standing room only. No I dont like to impose restrictions on how people like to use their vehicles, but as an employer I want to see workers turn up to work not smashed all over the road. Thais dont generally live in shacks made out of fertiliser sacks. Their shacks are hilton like by comparison.

2. Dont want to get into any arguments about free health care, I was talking about no access to health care paid for or otherwise

3. As you say treatment. some good bad or terrible, option to walk hmm maybe, option to complain?. Illegal to withhold wages, I'm sure this happens, but your whole post suggests that interference from legal authorities is undesirable. Against their will. yeah right walk 50k back to Cambodia carrying your kids, some do.

The point is Thais (and maybe Farangs) are exploiting the labour thats fine, thats how it is but maybe if there is competition for it from other provinces such as what IA is talking about then to secure their services conditions might get a little better, and I think, that mighn't be a bad thing. The wild west is finite mate even in Asia. I see Thai employers going to quite extraordinary lengths to secure labour now. That is the free market at work and shouldn't worry you too much viz a viz the nana state'n'all

[IsaanAussie]

I dont think anything is for free these days. I dont know what the AEC unilateral rules are concerning foreign labour but it would seem most logical if the employer had responsibility for the workers concerning their tenure in country and their health coverage. Unfortunately here in Thailand everything is divided between government departments and would need to be drawn together somehow to cover this. It has been done before with the likes of the Board of Investment that operates a one stop shop service for foreigners.

Still I suppose if it all ends up in the MaiPenRai basket it wont make a lot of difference other than easing the labour shortage.