British Murder Suspect Lee Aldhouse To Be Extradited To Phuket

[joecos]

Finally justice prevail ...... good news that guy will know you dont kill people without impunity , even in Thailand ..

What a load of .... , when there people are being killed every day in Thailand . Without `impunity` .

[Semper]

he filed an appeal claiming that conditions in Thai prisons infringed on human rights.

So, "human rights" would include murder?

[Mario2008]

flame deleted.

[F4UCorsair]

the guy is a long ways from thai soil. until that plane lands he aint here.

i can think of some behind the scenes now with lawyers. pleads guilty to the crime in the UK so he can serve the sentence there. win win for the governments. UK did everything possible to get him extradited and thais can close the case knowing the right guy was caught.

A plea of guilty to a charge can't be made in any jurisdiction other than the one in which the crime was committed. Well, he can plead all he likes even though it won't be in a court, but it carries NO weight because the crime was not committed in the UK, but Thailand.

[Mario2008]

the guy is a long ways from thai soil. until that plane lands he aint here.

i can think of some behind the scenes now with lawyers. pleads guilty to the crime in the UK so he can serve the sentence there. win win for the governments. UK did everything possible to get him extradited and thais can close the case knowing the right guy was caught.

A plea of guilty to a charge can't be made in any jurisdiction other than the one in which the crime was committed. Well, he can plead all he likes even though it won't be in a court, but it carries NO weight because the crime was not committed in the UK, but Thailand.

I think you mean is charged. It is not necessarrilly the jurisdiction where the crime was commited. As the crime was commited by a UK national, the Uk may have jurisdiction. As the crime was commited against a US citizen, the US might have jurisdiction and Thailand has jurisdiction as the crime was commited in Thailand.

For instance, sex-offenders can be prosecuted for crimes commited abroad in many European countries.

[GuestHouse]

Good question, seems their is a death sentence question not quite answered.

The fact that the UK court has enforced the extradition request indicates that a deal has been done under which the accused will not face the death sentence. The UK courts will not extradite anyone to face execution.

[JetsetBkk]

Is he here yet? and now go to

[cbrer]

Is he here yet?

Nope.

The next time he visits Thailand it will be in about 18 years time as a tourist when the 20 year statute of limitations has passed.

[JetsetBkk]

Is he here yet?

Nope.

The next time he visits Thailand it will be in about 18 years time as a tourist when the 20 year statute of limitations has passed.

Oh, ye of little faith.

[gaucho]

I must say I'm surprised at this decision.

Would be interested to learn as to whether a "no death penalty" agreement had been made by the Thai government as terms of the extradition.

It would appear that the UK legal system would like to see some penalty applied to this man as they seem to have gone out of their way to hold him on "unrelated charges" and thereby have aided the extradition process. Perhaps he is a known loose cannon and dangerous type that the Brits would like to see curtailed?

Sad to see two lives (victim and assailant) ruined over one man's inability to control his humility, rage and anger.

I don't totally agree that Lee Aldhouse is a scumbag necessarily,.. just a guy that went off the rails and will no doubt live to regret that!

no mate u r wrong ..he is a scumbag ...he is well known around the bars and is a cheap bully .....twice i have personally seen him start fights .....on one occasion he stated ...ive been waiting to practise that kick all day ...believe me he is not worthy of sympathy ........another thought who is paying for all this legal work ....hopefully not the long suffering tax payer

[gaucho]

Good question, seems their is a death sentence question not quite answered.

The fact that the UK court has enforced the extradition request indicates that a deal has been done under which the accused will not face the death sentence. The UK courts will not extradite anyone to face execution.

australia the same ...as a consequence lots of crims hide out in oz

[Baerboxer]

What 24/7 Bangup you are joking. The British jails are just like a 2 star hotel, you got your own LCD tv, keys to your own cell. You can wear your own clothes, choice of three meals both at lunch and dinner. Your out of your cell pretty much of the day.

You got access to education and gym, as well as other activities, some prisons have got phones in there cells.

I would imagine you would have to do some solid behind the door time before you got those types of privliges, they are normally reserved for first time non violent offenders or undesirables who are ending the end of there time, it will be 2 or 3 to a cell, nice bright red ladies tracksuits and 23 hr a day to reminise on how tough of a guy he is....

In einsight maybe the Thai route will be better for him....

You imagined wrong. Those privileges (with the exception of the games console) are available for every prisoner upon entry and are taken away from you if you fall foul of the rules inside. What he didn't also mention, is that you get paid for working in a British prison, which is all relatively easy work and gets you out of your cell for long periods.

There are two recreation periods a day. Occasionally it can be a 23 hour day inside the cell, but that's incredibly rare for the average prisoner. Obviously violent, drug taking, mental cons are normally locked up for longer than the rest of the prison population for good reason.

You have access to a phone, inside the prison, normally next to the guard house. There are flush toilets. A medic always available. Your medication will be given to you.

Your meal choices are tailored to your diet and religion. You're fed a hot calorific meal 3 times a day, for which you're let out of your cell, unless your privileges are taken away.

You can enrol in any kind of education program you can think of. They have computers, music rooms, a barber, pool/snooker tables, a fully stocked library that can get you books to order if it's not in stock.

There's a VPU (Vulnerable Prisoner Unit) that you have to be sent to if you request it on entering the prison, which, as you would imagine, where prisoners are treated with even softer rules and guidelines.

Just reading the British press on a fairly moderate basis would tell you that repeat offenders locked up in the UK often laugh at their sentence and tell the judge "thanks for the bed and board" and "ridiculously easy time".

They also wear blue. Not red. It's not a jumpsuit. You're given 3-4 sets of a shirts, pullovers, trousers, socks, underwear, shoes when you arrive. You're allowed to keep some items of what you were wearing when you were processed - like sneakers for example. There are uniforms for work in lots of cases.

Compared to the Thai prisons which are: ~20 to a room. Sleeping on the floor in a space the size of your body. Infested with insects. Outlandishly hot. Chock full of airborne/waterborne diseases. Have you shackled around the hands and legs, which leads to chafing and skin infections. Have you defecate in public. Have a lights out. Have no phone. Have the most basic food provisions possible. No prison-run education. Forced labour for no pay. No games and hobbies. Riots where live ammunition is used. Beatings. Guards that have guns. Shall I go on...

Unless you're a dollar millionaire, I see no way in which a Thai prison is even in the same ball park.

It's hard graft and an extremely unpleasant experience and Thailand often appears in Amnesty's list of countries with the worst prisons and human rights abuses in prisons.

EDIT: I will say the "keys to your own cell" thing is a bit of a myth. In some C & D Cat prisons that may be the case for those about to leave the place and who already have regular day releases. That's definitely not the case for 90%+ of the general prison population.

---

Lastly, the phrase is "in hindsight." and it doesn't apply as "in hindsight" means looking back at some event or events that happened in the past.

You paint an authoritive and knowledgable picture of life in a British prison. Can you name the souce(s) of you information, and confirm how long the scenario you describe has been in place?

I know a psychiatrist who carries out regular prisoner assessments and visits, several prison officers and four people who served over 8 years each. All described the conditions in British prisons consistently, but somewhat differently to you.

[Baerboxer]

You paint an authoritive and knowledgable picture of life in a British prison. Can you name the souce(s) of you information, and confirm how long the scenario you describe has been in place?

I know a psychiatrist who carries out regular prisoner assessments and visits, several prison officers and four people who served over 8 years each. All described the conditions in British prisons consistently, but somewhat differently to you.

Apologies - I just saw your other postings confirming your source as a relation who worked at HMP Wandsworth.

He is entitled to his view, which is very different from the people I know. The psychiatrist still maintains that people who say that British prisons are a soft option have never been inside. I know a selection of people who have been convicted for a wide range of different offences and who come from different backgrounds and educational abilities. Not one wants to return to prison, or sees it as a pleasent experience.

Clearly there is enough evidence to extadite this man. The only course for his lawyer is to suggest that Thai prisons are such evil disgusting insanitry and cruel places that his human rights will be abused. European courts usually err on the more liberal view and Theresa May will not be able to influence this.

I hope he is extradited and faces a full and competent trial where the "eyewitnesses" who post here can give evidence. If convicted or he chooese to plead guilty, he should be sentenced in accordance with the Thai law.

[bubblegum]

I must say I'm surprised at this decision.

Would be interested to learn as to whether a "no death penalty" agreement had been made by the Thai government as terms of the extradition.

It would appear that the UK legal system would like to see some penalty applied to this man as they seem to have gone out of their way to hold him on "unrelated charges" and thereby have aided the extradition process. Perhaps he is a known loose cannon and dangerous type that the Brits would like to see curtailed?

Sad to see two lives (victim and assailant) ruined over one man's inability to control his humility, rage and anger.

I don't totally agree that Lee Aldhouse is a scumbag necessarily,.. just a guy that went off the rails and will no doubt live to regret that!

no mate u r wrong ..he is a scumbag ...he is well known around the bars and is a cheap bully .....twice i have personally seen him start fights .....on one occasion he stated ...ive been waiting to practise that kick all day ...believe me he is not worthy of sympathy ........another thought who is paying for all this legal work ....hopefully not the long suffering tax payer

Have to agree, he tried to bite my nose off one day, luckily I had a lot of Thai friends surrounding me.

[ManInSurat]

You paint an authoritive and knowledgable picture of life in a British prison. Can you name the souce(s) of you information, and confirm how long the scenario you describe has been in place?

I know a psychiatrist who carries out regular prisoner assessments and visits, several prison officers and four people who served over 8 years each. All described the conditions in British prisons consistently, but somewhat differently to you.

Apologies - I just saw your other postings confirming your source as a relation who worked at HMP Wandsworth.

He is entitled to his view, which is very different from the people I know. The psychiatrist still maintains that people who say that British prisons are a soft option have never been inside. I know a selection of people who have been convicted for a wide range of different offences and who come from different backgrounds and educational abilities. Not one wants to return to prison, or sees it as a pleasent experience.

Clearly there is enough evidence to extadite this man. The only course for his lawyer is to suggest that Thai prisons are such evil disgusting insanitry and cruel places that his human rights will be abused. European courts usually err on the more liberal view and Theresa May will not be able to influence this.

I hope he is extradited and faces a full and competent trial where the "eyewitnesses" who post here can give evidence. If convicted or he chooese to plead guilty, he should be sentenced in accordance with the Thai law.

You're quiet right, I do not have any lengthy personal experience from within the prison walls (thankfully), but I did talk often and at length with my uncle before his death in 2010, and he retired in 2007 I believe, so he would have been describing life in Wandsworth 5 years ago. It is my understanding that Wandsworth was being upgraded at that point and was the last prison the the UK to install flush toilets throughout the whole prison and also the last prison to be totally electrified.

If you'd like to tell me how your ex-con friends and staff say it's a different experience to me, I'd love to hear how they have described it (sincerely not being facetious, I'd really like to know!) You mentioned you knew a lot of people from within the prison system, but didn't actually articulate where their experiences differed from my uncle's at all. What is so different of the benefits and privileges I listed, when trying to compare a British prison to Thai one.

I'm still very certain all of the benefits I listed are available for all. There are some you do have to work for. They can be taken away from you. I did also say that special cases would have altered lifestyles from the average prisoner. If you'd like to refute/rebut any of those points, then please feel free to do so.

My base point was that I find it extremely hard to listen to anyone posit that life in a Thai prison would be an "easier route", when compared to the British experience (from what I've learned from my uncle and documentaries).

You're quite right, prison is not meant to be easy. I didn't say it was. I said it was significantly less arduous than the experience Aldhouse could expect to have over here. I'm still maintaining that point of view. Mainly as for the nature of his crime, going back to hunt down and stab a man who caused him to lose face, by fairly beating him in a fight (that Alhouse would almost definitely have started) I'd much prefer him to actually be extradited and do some comparatively "harder" time. It might not sound very nice and humane, but I'm entitled to my opinions.

Moreover, there's a constant stream of criminals laughing their way into custody in the UK and having the nerve to talk back to the judge and tell them how "farkin easy that bird is mate" etc! It's always in the papers.

I highly doubt your average low/middle class Thai has had or will ever have that reaction to incarceration in any prison in LOS. That does speak volumes for me.

I am definitely no expert on any prison anywhere and I never claimed to be. I just have had a lot of information about what life in one is like (admittedly from one man).

If you'd like to debate the fact that when compared to a Thai prison, a British prison is NOT the softer option of the two, I'd be very interested to hear the argument you put forward for that.

Also, as JetSet asked before.....

Is he here yet?

Edited November 22, 2012 by ManInSurat

[Kipperthai]

I must say I'm surprised at this decision.

Would be interested to learn as to whether a "no death penalty" agreement had been made by the Thai government as terms of the extradition.

It would appear that the UK legal system would like to see some penalty applied to this man as they seem to have gone out of their way to hold him on "unrelated charges" and thereby have aided the extradition process. Perhaps he is a known loose cannon and dangerous type that the Brits would like to see curtailed?

Sad to see two lives (victim and assailant) ruined over one man's inability to control his humility, rage and anger.

I don't totally agree that Lee Aldhouse is a scumbag necessarily,.. just a guy that went off the rails and will no doubt live to regret that!

no mate u r wrong ..he is a scumbag ...he is well known around the bars and is a cheap bully .....twice i have personally seen him start fights .....on one occasion he stated ...ive been waiting to practise that kick all day ...believe me he is not worthy of sympathy ........another thought who is paying for all this legal work ....hopefully not the long suffering tax payer

Have to agree, he tried to bite my nose off one day, luckily I had a lot of Thai friends surrounding me.

So what happened?

[cbrer]

^ Give him a while. it takes times to concoct a good story.

[Langsuan Man]

I'm sorry I can't see what the problem is and why all these comparisons of justice systems. This guy, allegedly, committed a crime in Thailand, left Thailand to avoid prosecution, and is now coming back to face his accusers, so what is the problem ?

He and we, all know what the Thai Criminal Justice System is like, he chose to commit a crime here so he should not whine about the conditions or the law where he committed the crime. Just because he is a British subject and covered by EU "rights" he did not, allegedly, commit the crime in GB or in the EU.

In the US, I am covered by my countries Amendments to my Constitution, but I don't expect to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure, or have the right to own a firearm, or the right against self incrimination when I am in a foreign country, be it Thailand or anywhere else for that matter. No one forced me to come here so I accept that the Thais have a right to force me to follow their laws, as imperfect as they may be

[oops]

I'm sorry I can't see what the problem is and why all these comparisons of justice systems. This guy, allegedly, committed a crime in Thailand, left Thailand to avoid prosecution, and is now coming back to face his accusers, so what is the problem ?

He and we, all know what the Thai Criminal Justice System is like, he chose to commit a crime here so he should not whine about the conditions or the law where he committed the crime. Just because he is a British subject and covered by EU "rights" he did not, allegedly, commit the crime in GB or in the EU.

In the US, I am covered by my countries Amendments to my Constitution, but I don't expect to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure, or have the right to own a firearm, or the right against self incrimination when I am in a foreign country, be it Thailand or anywhere else for that matter. No one forced me to come here so I accept that the Thais have a right to force me to follow their laws, as imperfect as they may be

I,m curious....you think he gave the American a chance to choose when he walked up behind him and took his life. I think it's only fare we give him the same choices as the dead guy........oh wait, a dead man has no choices anymore. Guess that means I agree with you.

[ManInSurat]

I'm sorry I can't see what the problem is and why all these comparisons of justice systems. This guy, allegedly, committed a crime in Thailand, left Thailand to avoid prosecution, and is now coming back to face his accusers, so what is the problem ?

He and we, all know what the Thai Criminal Justice System is like, he chose to commit a crime here so he should not whine about the conditions or the law where he committed the crime. Just because he is a British subject and covered by EU "rights" he did not, allegedly, commit the crime in GB or in the EU.

In the US, I am covered by my countries Amendments to my Constitution, but I don't expect to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure, or have the right to own a firearm, or the right against self incrimination when I am in a foreign country, be it Thailand or anywhere else for that matter. No one forced me to come here so I accept that the Thais have a right to force me to follow their laws, as imperfect as they may be

"Is now coming back to face his accusers." Is that actually going to happen? There's been a plethora of high-profile extradition cases in the media recently. Gary McKinnon, Abu Hamza, Abu Qatada, Julian Assange. All of them managing to tie up extradition procedures indefinitely.

The only thing I have learned from these examples if that if you play things right, or hire the right team or get the right backing, you can stall the process indefinitely.

The main problem is that we have bodies like the EHCR (European Human Court/Convention of Rights) which regularly aid and abet heinous murderers, hate preachers, war criminals, etc. They go way too far in their remit of preventing perceived "human rights abuses" of the cases it handles.

Personally, I only think the EHCR should intervene with clear infringement of people's rights. i.e. Being extradited to face the death penalty. That much makes sense to me. McKinnon and Assange are good examples of this.

I don't see the EHCR having much of a problem with putting forward a substantive and convincing argument against Thailand, its justice system and its prison system. In fact, that'd be a ridiculously easy thing to achieve.

Until such time as Aldhouse is actually on Thai soil and being read his sentence from the Thai judge (which won't be life of even 20 years) will I think that any form of justice has been served.

Justice does have the American government on its side in this case, as I'm sure they must be applying pressure on Thailand & the UK, to extradite him, secure a conviction in Thailand and make Aldhouse serve time in Thailand. We all know how effective American pressure on both the UK and Thailand is.

I think the EHCR's powers and remit needs to be massively readjusted.

There's also another sad truth about this case. If and when he is actually on Thai soil and being judged, there's an extremely high possibility he'll get a pardon or will be sent back to the UK within 5 years. It makes a mockery of the whole process.

It seems clear to me the UK and Thailand want to play this game for all of the politically beneficial reasons and couldn't even give the slightest crap about ensuring justice is served and that the poor American lad didn't lose his life without any serious kind of repercussion for his murderer.

Great message to be sending the rest of the world.

I sincerely hope the US government keeps pushing on this case, hard.

Edited November 23, 2012 by LivinginKata
off topic paragraph removed

[stevenl]

Personally, I only think the EHCR should intervene with clear infringement of people's rights. i.e. Being extradited to face the death penalty. That much makes sense to me. McKinnon and Assange are good examples of this.

Didn't know Sweden carried the death penealty?

[ManInSurat]

Personally, I only think the EHCR should intervene with clear infringement of people's rights. i.e. Being extradited to face the death penalty. That much makes sense to me. McKinnon and Assange are good examples of this.

Didn't know Sweden carried the death penealty?

Sure, out of everything I said, pick that apart and indulge in some lovely early morning pedantry!

I was not inferring Sweden had the death penalty. That would just be stupid. If I was not clear, then it was my fault for not making myself clear.

On a side note, there's a very high chance that if Assange was extradited from the UK to Sweden, he'd very quickly be on a CIA plane headed for the US. Again, highly likely there'd be any move to seek the death penalty, but it would still be a possibility. The US does execute an alarming amount of non-US nationals, Thailand hasn't executed a foreigner for decades. I am pretty sure it's this possibility (of being extradited from Sweden to the US) that enables him to be protected by the Ecuadorian embassy, not simply the fact that he'll be extradited to Sweden to face trumped-up rape charges.

I actually meant that for McKinnon and Assange the EHCR used or is using their powers correctly (in my opinion) and that the other 2 examples I gave (Hamza & Qatada) is the flipside of that and that the EHCR can be a cumbersome tool that affords unwarranted help and protection when applied to people who really do deserve to be deported/extradited or face justice.

Re-reading my comments, that's still pretty clear to me.

I think there needs to be adjustment to what it can do and how it functions, quite drastically.

The main point I was making was that Aldhouse can and almost definitely will use this tool to try and delay the process further than it already has been, which I find abhorrent.

If you're going to commit premeditated murder in Thailand, as a national of any country and murdering a national of any other country, you should face justice in Thailand and do your time in Thailand - I mainly want this to happen as I think British prison is comparatively far too easy. Which I have made endlessly and abundantly clear.

I still think that even if he does come and is incarcerated here, it won't be for long and he'll go back to the UK prison system fairly quickly, which is a real shame.

Edited November 23, 2012 by ManInSurat

[RogueLeader]

I think British prison is comparatively far too easy. Which I have made endlessly and abundantly clear.

Sure. In Britain, we don't tend to encourage rape, murder, starvation, torture and extortion in our prisons but it depends whether you regard those as things that you want happening to people who will one day be released to live among law-abiding people.

Do you really think rape and torture are appropriate under any circumstances whatsoever?

[transam]

I think British prison is comparatively far too easy. Which I have made endlessly and abundantly clear.

Sure. In Britain, we don't tend to encourage rape, murder, starvation, torture and extortion in our prisons but it depends whether you regard those as things that you want happening to people who will one day be released to live among law-abiding people.

Do you really think rape and torture are appropriate under any circumstances whatsoever?

Depends on the crime for me.

[ManInSurat]

I think British prison is comparatively far too easy. Which I have made endlessly and abundantly clear.

Sure. In Britain, we don't tend to encourage rape, murder, starvation, torture and extortion in our prisons but it depends whether you regard those as things that you want happening to people who will one day be released to live among law-abiding people.

Do you really think rape and torture are appropriate under any circumstances whatsoever?

I said I was entitled to my opinions, which I am. I am not condoning rape or torture (go on, extrapolate even more and put words in my mouth), but please cite all of examples of westerners being raped in Thai prisons that you care to. I'll be interested to see what you bring up. Again cite all your examples of torture of westerners in Thai prisons.

Thai people seem to live through the experience.

You seem to be forgetting the major point. He committed a premeditated murder in Thailand. He'd have been aware of the harsh conditions of Thai prisons many many years before this event took place.

While he was stealing the knife from 7/11 and stalking his victim, maybe the harsh conditions of a Thai prison should have been weighing heavily on his mind.

Ok, you think Mr Aldhouse is going to be tortured and raped. I really don't think that will happen. He might get a few prisoner-on-prisoner beatings, only because of his attitude and the fact he'll start the fights. The same would be the case in a British prison. Fights are very very commonplace irrespective of the prison location.

If you'd bothered to read any of my posts, you'd see that I was trying to explain that the reality is he won't end up coming because his "human rights" will allegedly be infringed upon. I can see the EHCR and other boides coming to his aid to mire this case deep in bureaucracy.

You'll get what you want and I won't.

I'm allowed to want him to have a harder time for the nature of this crime, I suspect there are others that feel the same way I do.

The British and Thai goverments have also decided (aside from the further legal wrangling to come) that his extradition is the best option. Not that it will happen. You go against this view and Aldhouse will probably get your wishes.

Edited November 23, 2012 by ManInSurat

[cbrer]

I'm sorry I can't see what the problem is and why all these comparisons of justice systems. This guy, allegedly, committed a crime in Thailand, left Thailand to avoid prosecution, and is now coming back to face his accusers, so what is the problem ?

Do you judge the justice, legal and police systems in Thailand to be so fair, competent and free from corruption to properly try someone for such a crime? (or any crime)

I was reading back over one of the original threads on it and there were Americans saying they were willing to pay money to make sure he gets put away.

How much were all those soon-to-be police officers caught paying to pass the entrance exam again, 5 years of a police officer's official salary wasn't it? So they can extort, drug-run, loan-shark, torture and murder like the police officers in the Thai news everyday?

Do you think a fair and just trial can take place with competent investigative work?

Not that it matters.

The Thai prison system, with its systematic torture and inhumane standards will be laughed at by the ECHR.

Extradition Denied. Plain and simple.

Edited November 23, 2012 by cbrer

[KKvampire]

I'm sorry I can't see what the problem is and why all these comparisons of justice systems. This guy, allegedly, committed a crime in Thailand, left Thailand to avoid prosecution, and is now coming back to face his accusers, so what is the problem ?

Do you judge the justice, legal and police systems in Thailand to be so fair, competent and free from corruption to properly try someone for such a crime? (or any crime)

I was reading back over one of the original threads on it and there were Americans saying they were willing to pay money to make sure he gets put away.

How much were all those soon-to-be police officers caught paying to pass the entrance exam again, 5 years of a police officer's official salary wasn't it? So they can extort, drug-run, loan-shark, torture and murder like the police officers in the Thai news everyday?

Do you think a fair and just trial can take place with competent investigative work?

Not that it matters.

The Thai prison system, with its systematic torture and inhumane standards will be laughed at by the ECHR.

Extradition Denied. Plain and simple.

Exactly. The ECHR prevents a non uk person who the Uk government has been trying to have extridited to jordan on human rights grounds , whereas a uk citizen has to go to that well know country of fair and just legal and human right standardsThailand. Pathetic Uk

:lol:Sent from my LG-P350 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited November 23, 2012 by KKvampire

[RogueLeader]

Ok, you think Mr Aldhouse is going to be tortured and raped. I really don't think that will happen. He might get a few prisoner-on-prisoner beatings, only because of his attitude and the fact he'll start the fights. The same would be the case in a British prison. Fights are very very commonplace irrespective of the prison location.

And what is that opinion based on?

Denying prisoners the basic rights common to humans turns them into animals.

Most crimes are committed in the heat of the moment, rendering discussions of deterrence by herding prisoners like cattle and beating them like dogs moot. However you like to apply post-hoc rationalisations, harsh treatment of prisoners as a cohort has spite and vindictiveness as its basis. There is no rational justification from deterrence. Loss of liberty is the punishment, not the experience of prison itself.

I can understand, if not excuse, someone who has suffered personal loss wanting the person who caused that loss to suffer. I do it myself when someone steals my phone or short-changes me. But that's why we have a judiciary - to separate the victims of crime from those charged with administering punishment: what would happen if the penalty was decided by grieving relatives at the height of their grief?

Edited November 23, 2012 by RogueLeader

[LivinginKata]

<snip.

Most crimes are committed in the heat of the moment,

<snip>

Really ... by all alleged accounts this alleged crime was not 'in the heat of the moment'

[transam]

<snip.

Most crimes are committed in the heat of the moment,

<snip>

Really ... by all alleged accounts this alleged crime was not 'in the heat of the moment'

Yep, some are/were premeditated, like this one.