Pesticides

[cooked]

I had extensive professional experience with the use of pesticides and other poisonous substances in Europe.

I have had the occasional moan on TV about the pesticides that are sold here (many forbidden in Europe since 20 years), the advice that I get about them in shops, and the general lack of common sense involved. I have seen how difficult is it is to produce vegetables here without some treatments and Bai sadaou doesn't do it. My melon seedlings and cucumber plants are currently being attacked by weevils, my China cabbage nearly disappeared overnight (caterpillars). I try to produce my own stuff because the immaculate looking vegetables sold here make me feel that they must be soaked in pesticide. I know that many Thais feel the same, they go for the imperfect stuff in the market or the meat that is crawling with flies, yuck.

Can somebody point me at a competent adviser or selling point that doesn't just say 'little, little' when I ask how much to dose or say that I don't want to get cancer just yet, thanks.?

I managed to produce enough for 40 years in Switzerland with a minimal use of pesticides, but I don't dogmatically refuse to use them when necessary. By the way, the most effective weapon against the weevils was using netting, but the size of the plants has made this impractical.

[jcw]

Very interesting topic, what about the organic folks in the sub forum here?

I will be reading and hopefully learning form the replies to this one.

[samuijimmy]

Bugs on vegetables sure are a problem, controlling them seems next to impossible sometimes, I've pretty much given up on bothering to grow any...

I watch my Thai neighbours, struggle.... as with you, some crops get wiped out over night..

The Sadao (Neem tree oil works on some things) .... But I think with "organic methods" it needs to be done more often... which gets a little tedious!

There is a recipe here that is not that difficult to make... I tried this a couple of years back... but it is a case of doing it regularly ... about every five days...

Read Post number 79 Chilly Vinegar mix...

http://www.thaivisa....ds/page__st__75

I also seen my neighbours mixing a concoction of lemon grass and Neem, in a large container, it sits for a about a week, then sprayed... I don't remember that recipe off hand.

The problem with the chemicals, as you say, many banned in Western Countries, for years...

Some that are still used have a "days to harvest" after application.... that does not seem to be on the radar screen here!

[drtreelove]

This issues around pesticide use are complex, and don't have an easy answer. But as far as your main question, pointing you to an advisor - all I can say is that during my years in Thailand I never found anyone, a shop or universtiy ajarn that could give me that kind of clear, simple information on what to use for what pest on which plant, at what dose, that would be most effective and least toxic. I'm back in California and running a tree and landscape consulting and licensed pest control service and it's a challenge here too, in spite of no language barrier, and with all the resources of the Univerity of California IPM program, extension advisors, continuing education programs that I attend, licensed pest control advisors that I have on call, plus the chemical manufacturers representatives. Each issue that I face has a unique set of considerations and possibilities for treatment. It takes a lot of searching, reading and thought to come up with the best and least toxic alternatives.

Some people believe that all pesticides are evil and carcinogenic and that we shouldn't use any. But with a little study you find out that there are different classes of pesticides and toxicity ratings and that some are useful without having much downside for personal toxicity exposure or environmental contamination. In my work I use an IPM approach and only use pesticides conservatively, when all other options are ruled out, like your experience with netting being effective against a particular pest until the plant gets to big to use it. My first choice is OMRI rated products (organic materials research intstitue) if available for the particular pest problem, or caution label (category III toxicity rating from US Environmental Protection Agency). There are so many good tools in those groups now that I don't even need to consider the category I or II (danger or warning label chemicals) like organophosphates and chlorinated hydrocarbons that give 'pesticides' a dirty word.

Hopefully Soidog2 will see this discussion and join in, he is doing some experimentation with pest control materials available in Thailand. And there have been many discussions on this subject in this forum and the organic subforum that you may find useful. And here are some links to more general information on pesticides and IPM:

http://thailand.ipm-info.org

http://thailand.ipm-info.org/pesticides/pesticides_classification.htm

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu

BTW, neem is a useful material, but you said "bai sadao". Bai is leaf and you will find that the infusion made from neem leaves will not be nearly as effective as the seed oil extract which has a higher concentration of the active ingredient 'azadirachtin'. You need to find the refined seed oil extract that is available in Thailand at some ag supply shops. At least it was on the shelf at the supplier I used in Chiang Mai. This material is unique and highly effective against a wide range of plant pests. It's not a contact knock-down bug killer, but a anti-feedant, repellant and reproductive disruptor. But Jimmy is right, it's not a one-shot quick-fix, you have to apply regularly on 7 to 10 day intervals, maybe not practical or affordable in all situations. Here in California I use Azatrol http://www.pbigordon...ID_PRODUCTS=661

The modern, educated approach to pest control it to consider all aspects of plant health care and provide the best growing conditions that you can. Healthy soil, managed with soil testing and prescription amendments, appropriate irrigation and other PHC factors will help to created some level of resistance to pests and diseases. Water deficits, soil mineral deficiencies, and over fertilization by guess work can be favorable to the pests.

don

[rice555]

Hello Dr.Don, for off the shelf neem(Home Pro, Korat).

This product has also been in Thai Ag Magazines.

Not cheap!

rice555

[drtreelove]

Reading the sticker on the bottle can give you the name of the active ingredient. Even though it's all in Thai, it's required that active ingredient be listed in English. On Rice's photo of this neem product it's right up front "Azadirachtin'. The percent of active ingredient will be there too, as well as the mixing rate, usually in ml of the product per liters of water. Sometimes there are different rates for different pest/plant applications. I can't read Thai, but my wife and step-daughter got used to finding it in the fine print and interpreting these numbers for me. With that information you have something to go on, and can search the Internet for information on the active ingredient and compare with product information and application rates that are available.

The "label" is an important source of information on pesticide products. This is different and more comprehensive than the sticker label on the bottle, although some products attach a fold out, complete 'label' to the bottle. If a product has a US equivalent you can find the label and msds online because it's required by the US EPA for every pesticide. (The MSDS is material safety data sheet that gives toxicology and first aid information) http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/pests/a1098w.htm

There is information available from Thai ag university professors, if you can establish a relationship and find out which ajarns specialize in which crops. Some of these teachers are fluent in English and very helpful, but it takes some polite and persistent inquiries to get to the right source. I found if I walked in with a sample of foliage or fruit with a pest on it, it breaks the ice and I got directed to the right office. It's like 'a picture's worth a thousand words'.

[cooked]

Thanks, yes that's what I do, but a shop with a large selection of pesticides is unable to advise to you and I don't feel like examining the miniscule print on every container and then googling it with my phone. And I'm not sure that a professor would necessarily be interested in recommending something that is preferably less toxic to the environment (and me).

[IsaanAussie]

I just told my wife about your post Cooked. Know what she said?

She said, "Of course he not give you BAD one, if not work you blame and he lose face. Of course he give your BEST one, work good kill every mot!"

[cooked]

Bring back DDT or can you buy it in Thailand? I bet you can!

[soidog2]

For the OP question:

For a small personal garden I recommend using natural Pyrethrum ( available in Thailand as "Insectivor P", imported = expensive but 100% safe for humans )

http://www.biotechap...ts/insectivor-p

Depending on what's growing, mixing with neem OIL extract & detergent adds potency.

In addition "Bacillus Thuringiensis (Bt), is also available to fight (will ingest it & die) caterpillars on your produce.

For larger areas & fruit orchards cost becomes an issue,

A great inexpensive non toxic helper is wood vinegar.

Produced in Thailand by TPI; at various concentrations is both an insecticide/ anti fungal (Anthracnose) / herbicide.

Using wood vinegar allows you to greatly reduce chemical use.

As everything else in Thailand; it is not documented and nobody has heard of it but it exists and it works.

Cypermethrin is a synthetic pyrethroid, degrades fast; combined with Abamectin provides broad protection; OK to use if you follow instructions & dosage.

All bottles have recommended use and dosage in Thai, you must get someone to read them for you.

Asking the seller is a waste of time.

Best Regards

[cooked]

I found a place in Buriram where a very (!) nice chick recommended wood vinegar, so I bought it, i would do anything she says...

I guess it is like when I was frustrated because the big do it your self places sold hammers but not nails... I am getting there.

Thanks.

[soidog2]

I found a place in Buriram where a very (!) nice chick recommended wood vinegar, so I bought it, i would do anything she says...

I guess it is like when I was frustrated because the big do it your self places sold hammers but not nails... I am getting there.

Thanks.

The 50 to1 recommendation on the bottle is for use as herbicide and to kill nematodes. Start at 200 to 1 and experiment.

[Lickey]

Some years ago, Ozzydom suggested "Companion Planting" which would be like grow onions or garlic when your melon/cucumber seeds start sprouting, sorry, meant to say plant the onion or garlic between the seeds, there is a website for more info, Good Luck,,

[xen]

If i could add my two cents worth , i see a lot of the problems with those gardeners/farmers wanting to use natural and environmentally friendly pest control methods is that the methodology does not differ much from those who use the "harder" chemicals in that they see a pest and target just that pest instead of using a more holistic approach, but like Dr Treelove mentions other methods include looking at soil deficiencies and pH . IPM, such as knowing the life cycle of the insect causing the problem and applying solutions at the appropriate time is not only environmentally smart but also financially smart. Cultural practices like using mulches , keeping certain weed species under control that host unwanted pests and /or cultivating other plants like marigold for control of nematodes. Soidog2 mentions Pyrethrum which is a chrysanthemum which in the northern parts of Thailand could survive if you can get the seed.(If only you can get the seed) i have used it as an ornamental and i personally love the smell of it. Encouraging bird and insect life is a a plus . Creating favourable conditions for natural predators ,and not killing creatures like snake,lizards, skinks, spiders etc also adds up to better pest control. .

I could go on and I do apologise if i am speaking to the converted and if it all sounds too simplistic . The hardest part is converting/educating the neighbours i guess.

[drtreelove]

Another important principle in pest control is to inspect frequently so that you catch infestations early, before they become heavy and the pest more mature. Some caterpillars are easier to control with BT at early instars, but at more advanced stage it doesn't work as well and you have use stronger stuff. Know your crop and what the likely pests are to watch for. Know the stages in the lifecycle of common pest and when control is most effective. Know the mode of action of the pesticides you use, is it a contact insecticide like pyrethrum or does the pest have to injest it like BT.

[drtreelove]

Thanks, yes that's what I do, but a shop with a large selection of pesticides is unable to advise to you and I don't feel like examining the miniscule print on every container and then googling it with my phone. And I'm not sure that a professor would necessarily be interested in recommending something that is preferably less toxic to the environment (and me).

Of course you wouldn't want to have to start from scratch in a shop reading bottles, but for example if the someone recommended two possible products for a particular pest problem, you could look at the active ingredient. If one was Chlorpyrifos (an organophosphate) and the other was Cypermethrin (a pyrethroid) I may know enough to choose the cypermethrin as less toxic for people and pets and less persistent in the environment. And you may be surprised at the university systems and how prevalent IPM and less toxic approach is becoming. I have experience with Kasetsart, Chiang Mai U and Mae Jo U being very helpful at IPM issues and less toxic approach. Even the Thailand Dept of Agriculture has a division of biological control .

[drtreelove]

Some years ago, Ozzydom suggested "Companion Planting" which would be like grow onions or garlic when your melon/cucumber seeds start sprouting, sorry, meant to say plant the onion or garlic between the seeds, there is a website for more info, Good Luck,,

Good point. here's a starter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companion_plants

[cooked]

Yes, I must pay more attention to stuff like that I used to live up in the mountains where many pests didn't survive the winter so I may have become a bit lax. I did interplant carrots with onions, deterring carrot and onion flies mutually. I had forgotten about the use of marigolds, maybe this is why so many people plant them all over the place here.

I had an attack of weevils on my melons, first batch of seedlings destroyed.As I said above, netting helped. I go out every morning to take them by hand but I can see them flying around everywhere, this is the second generation since I started planting stuff a few months ago. So wood vinegar it is but as this is a contact herbicide I don't have much hope. Ultimately i will net the small garden in completely and be nice to frogs and worms.

[soidog2]

Your basic weapons;

# 1, Detergent, must use together with Neem

# 2, Wood vinegar

# 3, Neem oil extract.

# 4, Insectivor P, ( Pyrethrum, ready to use natural chrysanthemum extract)

[IsaanAussie]

For anyone who burns biochar (CRH) you can collect the condensate and let it settle, wallah! Wood vinegar.

Thanks for the pictures SoiDog, I'll give it another go with my new "shopping list"

[cooked]

Thanks Soidog, woof woof.

I sprayed the wood vinegar this morning, seems to be working they are dropping like flies. (joke). Detergent: any old detergent? I am always a bit suspicious of the additives in detergents. I will try and get Neem oil extract. So you suggest using these weapons once a week as a preventive measure? Changing the product each time? Or just spray it when needed?

[soidog2]

It depends on whats growing; best bet is prevention rather than control.

A disciplined, once a week, light spray will go a long way towards keeping your garden pest free.

Any low suds detergent will do, it acts as a binding agent for the neem; it needs it to stick on the target.

Neem will work on leaf miners, small parasites, some caterpillars.

Wood vinegar, depends on concentration, I use it mostly for its anti-fungal properties.

Pyrethrum will take care of most things that crawl & fly including the pesky fruit fly.

Make a cocktail of your pesticides, based on need, and keep at it regularly; you will see a big difference in a month time.

You can also add, to above, some fertilizer as needed; I add Ca & B for flowering fruit trees, etc.

My home garden is extensive; I use a rechargeable battery 15 Liter Backpack for spraying.

Very quiet and comfortable.

Best regards.

[dmroo]

Hi folks,

I ran through this subject on the hoping to find a particular answer I was looking into. Ill be moving to Pattaya this year and was searching to see if I can grow a neem tree there on the idea of helping to repel Mosquito's a bit.

Seems all I found was about oils, but how about growing the plant itself?

Anyone knows where I may be able to buy one to pland or know if I can grow please let me know.

Cheers all

[cooked]

Hi folks,

I ran through this subject on the hoping to find a particular answer I was looking into. Ill be moving to Pattaya this year and was searching to see if I can grow a neem tree there on the idea of helping to repel Mosquito's a bit.

Seems all I found was about oils, but how about growing the plant itself?

Anyone knows where I may be able to buy one to pland or know if I can grow please let me know.

Cheers all

Hi and welcome. Neem tree is easy to cultivate , BUT: you occasionally find individuals completely denuded of leaves, meaning that they maybe don't contain the magic ingredient. You can buy Bai Sadaou concentrate (made from Neem oil, not just an infusion) in most gardening shops, so I wouldn't bother myself, these days I just buy concentrate, and add wood vinegar.

[loong]

Little bit of info about growing Neem tree.

http://www.discoverneem.com/growing-neem-trees.html

Also commonly known as Margosa, so it may be worth doing a search.

[chatette]

I'm looking for a local product called Buverin (written in Thai but I don't have Thai fonts), which is basically a biological pesticide containing spore of Beauveria Bassiana, a fungus that destroys sucking insect pests.

Would anyone happen to know where I can find it or an equivalent brand in Bangkok?

Presumably organic farmers would favor this, but I have no contacts.

[drtreelove]

Interesting! I had never heard of it. Have you used this, or just want to try it? Please let me know your experiences with this product or any other organic program compatible pest control products. don

I searched and found this from Cornell U: http://web.pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/resourceguide/mfs/03beauveria_bassiana.php

[Khonwan]

Interesting but two negative aspects from the link indicate against me using this, particularly the first:

“Fungal spores are readily killed by solar radiation and infect best in cool to moderate temperatures” (I wonder why it is sold locally as reported by Chatette)

“Natural enemies and bees: Since this product is used to control a broad range of insect types (including beetles and ants), predators in these insect classes could also be affected. Caution should be used when applying it when honeybees are actively foraging.”

Rgds

Khonwan

[cooked]

I see that Neonicotinoids have now been forbidden in The European Union for a period of two years. (They seem to be responsible for bee colony collapse). Still readily in Thailand, the only disputation about these products is coming from Bayer, who sell a lot of dubious stuff in Thailand.

I am all for using organic methods of combating pests. At the moment I am using wood vinegar, Sadao extract and go around squashing the bu@@$$s by hand. I will be netting the entire garden entirely very soon.