Kasikorn No Longer Accepting U.s Citizen Investments

[CWMcMurray]

I would guess your best bet would be Bangkok Bank, as they have a branch in New York, so they maybe planning to jump through the hoops set by the US government???

[VBF]

Going into the Kasikorn site to check my account an hour ago I was made to accept a service agreement which arrived in pdf in my mail soon after. Way below is this clause

15. If KBank is required to disclose financial information or transactions related to the use of the Service by any

governmental or competent authorities per legal provisions, orders or regulations, the User agrees to allow KBank to

disclose such information and/or if requested prepare any report on relevant information and/or financial transactions of

the User for submission to those authorities.

I don't know if it's only US citizens who are being forced through this hoop. If it is then it's got to do with the new disclosure law.

Unfortunately, the interfering peasants masquerading as “government” in the US, UK and Europe are determined we shall have no secrets and will bully their way into forcing the rest of the world to accept! It’s not as if they have a right to know - they’re SUPPOSED to be OUR servants!!!

Edited December 2, 2012 by VBF

[wpcoe]

i'm sure there'll be a way for U.S. citizens to hold a bread-and-butter current account without links to any investments except fixed deposits. anything beyond that is offshore already "rien ne vas plus!"

Are you aware that for many years now, US citizens have been required to report annually to the government if they have more than US$10,000 (or equivalent in foreign currency) at any time in foreign countries, including all accounts combined?

If I understand correctly, the IRS is now "requiring" overseas banks to report all US citizens' banking activity to them so the IRS can verify compliance with individuals' reporting. U.S. citizens are required to pay tax on worldwide income, regardless where/how it is earned. My paranoia, based on a lifetime as a US citizen, is that the IRS wants to monitor overseas banks not only to monitor compliance with the "more than $10k" reporting rule, but also to see if there is a taxable income flow in another country being concealed from the IRS.

If this is so, and Thai banks are required to report every US citizen bank account and details, I can see where Thai banks might just so "No, thanks" to any US citizen trying to open -- or retain -- even a simple savings account. Why should a Thai bank spend money & manpower to jump through hoops just to satisfy Uncle Sam?

[Suradit69]

There are so many paranoid options and unfortunately who really knows whether this is paranoia or not until this all shakes out. For example there might be extra costs associated with American accounts so even banks that comply may try to get rid of low profit accounts. They could impose extra fees on Americans to cover the costs and I'd certainly rather pay that than not be able to bank in Thailand.

i'm sure there'll be a way for U.S. citizens to hold a bread-and-butter current account without links to any investments except fixed deposits. anything beyond that is offshore already "rien ne vas plus!"

I make dollar deposits to Bangkok Bank in New York. I find it difficult to believe they would refuse my deposits "because I'm an American" since they have a FED routing number and an American Bankers assoc number and the only reason the branch exists is to facilitate banking transactions between the US and Thailand.

I would be a little leery about signing a petition (assuming using your real name would be required for it to be valid). Looking at their website, for example, we now all know Joe Ratner in Cancun is upset by this IRS intrusion. Monday morning some intern in the IRS may be told to do a "random" check on Joe. I have nothing to hide, but I'd rather not wave red flags in front of the IRS.

If this is so, and Thai banks are required to report every US citizen bank account and details, I can see where Thai banks might just so "No, thanks" to any US citizen trying to open -- or retain -- even a simple savings account. Why should a Thai bank spend money & manpower to jump through hoops just to satisfy Uncle Sam?

Because there are numerous regulatory burdens associated with doing international business, all of which involve costs and manpower. Most of the major Thai banks maintain branches in other countries at a cost to them both in terms of expense and manpower. I'm sure all foreign held accounts already note the nationality of the account holder. These days it would simply be a matter of doing a computer sort and print out. If, as Jingthing suggested, there was some nominal amount charged to us for the paper and electricity used to generate the report, so be it. In the US most banks nickel and dime people to death for every little thing because fees make up an important part of their income now that they can't screw mortgage holders for obscene amounts.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Suradit69

[wpcoe]

[Even though the edit button still appears in my previous post, I get an error saying I don't have permission to do so, hence an additional post. In red below are corrections from my previous post, just above.]

Are you aware that for many years now, US citizens have been required to report annually to the government if they have more than US$10,000 US$50,000 (or equivalent in foreign currency) at any time in foreign countries, including all accounts combined?

If I understand correctly, the IRS is now "requiring" will require in 2014 that overseas banks banks, stock brokers, hedge funds, pension funds, insurance companies and trusts to report all US citizens' banking activity to them so the IRS can verify compliance with individuals' reporting.

The udpates in my knowledge of the matter is from from the ACA web site which says in part:

FATCA requires foreign financial institutions (FFI) of broad scope banks, stock brokers, hedge funds, pension funds, insurance companies, trusts to report directly to the IRS all clients who are U.S. persons.

Starting January 1, 2013 [updated elsewhere saying delayed until 2014], FATCA will require FFIs to provide annual reports to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) on the name and address of each U.S. client, as well as the largest account balance in the year and total debits and credits of any account owned by a U.S. person.

If an institution does not comply, the U.S. will impose a 30% withholding tax on all its transactions concerning U.S. securities, including the proceeds of sale of securities.

In addition, FATCA requires any foreign company not listed on a stock exchange or any foreign partnership which has 10% U.S. ownership to report to the IRS the names and tax I.D. number (TIN) of any U.S. owner.

FATCA also requires U.S. citizens and green card holders who have foreign financial assets in excess of $50,000 to complete a new Form 8938 to be filed with the 1040 tax return, starting with fiscal year 2011.

Big Brother, indeed. In a rather dysfunctional family...

[Naam]

i'm sure there'll be a way for U.S. citizens to hold a bread-and-butter current account without links to any investments except fixed deposits. anything beyond that is offshore already "rien ne vas plus!"

Are you aware that for many years now, US citizens have been required to report annually to the government if they have more than US$10,000 (or equivalent in foreign currency) at any time in foreign countries, including all accounts combined?

If I understand correctly, the IRS is now "requiring" overseas banks to report all US citizens' banking activity to them so the IRS can verify compliance with individuals' reporting. U.S. citizens are required to pay tax on worldwide income, regardless where/how it is earned. My paranoia, based on a lifetime as a US citizen, is that the IRS wants to monitor overseas banks not only to monitor compliance with the "more than $10k" reporting rule, but also to see if there is a taxable income flow in another country being concealed from the IRS.

If this is so, and Thai banks are required to report every US citizen bank account and details, I can see where Thai banks might just so "No, thanks" to any US citizen trying to open -- or retain -- even a simple savings account. Why should a Thai bank spend money & manpower to jump through hoops just to satisfy Uncle Sam?

yes i am very much aware! it so happened that my wife and me, even though we are German citizens, were "U.S. persons" for several years (based on "substantial presence" in the U.S.) and liable to pay our dues to the IRS. what FATCA is demanding now is actually nothing new. we had to follow relevant IRS rules years ago (we left the Greatest Nation on Earth™ early 2004). for each and every credit movement our bank had to issue a "1099" which amounted to a huge burden for our bank in Luxembourg.

My paranoia, based on a lifetime as a US citizen, is that the IRS wants to monitor overseas banks not only to monitor compliance with the "more than $10k" reporting rule, but also to see if there is a taxable income flow in another country being concealed from the IRS.

and the winner is... wpcoe!

[caughtintheact]

A few quick searches for FATCA (Thanks maxman71), FBAR and Dodd-Frank, will explain everything. American citizens living abroad in any country should look into the new rules. Investments of less than $50K might not be affected, but any foreign bank account(s) held by US citizens that have a total of $10,000 at any time during a year are subject to what is called FBAR (a 2009 law - see the IRS web site) reporting.

FATCA will have taxes on investments, and appears to require that the foreign banks do the reporting, so it is understandable that foreign banks do not want to get involved. The US is one of the if or the only country that taxes its citizens on money earned abroad. So don't get mad at your local bank investment institution. It is not their doing.

There is a summary of FATCA at http://www.ttn-taxation.net/pdfs/Speeches_Latin_America_2010/Michael_Legamaro_FATCA.pdf .

http://americansabroad.org/ (Thanks Jungthing) is attempting to fight this legislation.

[55Jay]

we left the Greatest Nation on Earth™ early 2004

I got a chuckle out of that. Love the trade mark.

[55Jay]

Forget which year exactly but it's been at least 3 or 4, was going to sign up for a Standard Chartered short investment deal offered a branch in the Middle East but said right on the advert flyer US Citizens weren't invited.

[JimGant]

Here's a cheerful article:

http://crevelingandc...to-go-away.html

Sounds like investments subject to PFIC (passive foreign investment company) will, under FATCA, require an elaborate report -- much more detailed than required for a simple bank account.

Can't blame Kasikorn for turning away Yanks from their investment offers.

(PFIC has been around since 1986, but with the reporting onus, until FATCA, on the individual. Even so, I suspect some foreign financial institutions worried about possible extra requirements for Yank clients -- and so turned them away. Possibly 55Jay's situation.)

[bkk_mike]

There are so many paranoid options and unfortunately who really knows whether this is paranoia or not until this all shakes out. For example there might be extra costs associated with American accounts so even banks that comply may try to get rid of low profit accounts. They could impose extra fees on Americans to cover the costs and I'd certainly rather pay that than not be able to bank in Thailand.

i'm sure there'll be a way for U.S. citizens to hold a bread-and-butter current account without links to any investments except fixed deposits. anything beyond that is offshore already "rien ne vas plus!"

I make dollar deposits to Bangkok Bank in New York. I find it difficult to believe they would refuse my deposits "because I'm an American" since they have a FED routing number and an American Bankers assoc number and the only reason the branch exists is to facilitate banking transactions between the US and Thailand.

I would be a little leery about signing a petition (assuming using your real name would be required for it to be valid). Looking at their website, for example, we now all know Joe Ratner in Cancun is upset by this IRS intrusion. Monday morning some intern in the IRS may be told to do a "random" check on Joe. I have nothing to hide, but I'd rather not wave red flags in front of the IRS.

If this is so, and Thai banks are required to report every US citizen bank account and details, I can see where Thai banks might just so "No, thanks" to any US citizen trying to open -- or retain -- even a simple savings account. Why should a Thai bank spend money & manpower to jump through hoops just to satisfy Uncle Sam?

Because there are numerous regulatory burdens associated with doing international business, all of which involve costs and manpower. Most of the major Thai banks maintain branches in other countries at a cost to them both in terms of expense and manpower. I'm sure all foreign held accounts already note the nationality of the account holder. These days it would simply be a matter of doing a computer sort and print out. If, as Jingthing suggested, there was some nominal amount charged to us for the paper and electricity used to generate the report, so be it. In the US most banks nickel and dime people to death for every little thing because fees make up an important part of their income now that they can't screw mortgage holders for obscene amounts.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just the nationality.

U.S. persons includes, as well as U.S. companies and U.S. Nationals, anyone with a green card. (I knew a Scottish guy in Hong Kong who was having to pay tax to Uncle Sam as he didn't want to give up his green card.)

[Soutpeel]

other nationalities right now only to residents with a working permit in Singapore therefore de facto no longer an international financial hub as they were dreaming to become.....

Not true...a collegue of mine opened a US$ account there not 4 weeks ago and he isnt a resident of Singapore and actually lives and works in Thailand, but he is not an American...so please stop making inaccurate statements...what you are saying is not true

[Naam]

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just the nationality.

U.S. persons includes, as well as U.S. companies and U.S. Nationals, anyone with a green card. (I knew a Scottish guy in Hong Kong who was having to pay tax to Uncle Sam as he didn't want to give up his green card.)

anyone can become a U.S. person and liable to pay taxes, even a tourist, if he/she meets the "substantial presence" in the U.S. of A. and does not pay income tax in a jurisdiction which has ratified a double tax agreement with the USA.

[Naam]

other nationalities right now only to residents with a working permit in Singapore therefore de facto no longer an international financial hub as they were dreaming to become.....

Not true...a collegue of mine opened a US$ account there not 4 weeks ago and he isnt a resident of Singapore and actually lives and works in Thailand, but he is not an American...so please stop making inaccurate statements...what you are saying is not true

that's correct Soutpeel! and as far as the international financial hub is concerned it is worthwhile to note that Singapore remains a financial hub last not least because of the billions pouring in every month from former tax havens in Europe.

the latter is also the main reason why Singapore banks are nowadays even more arrogant than before and keep raising their thresholds for new clients

[Soutpeel]

the latter is also the main reason why Singapore banks are nowadays even more arrogant than before and keep raising their thresholds for new clients

Well it does keep out the riff raff after all... ...got the Americans out, now how about the rest of the Euro-trash...

[Naam]

the latter is also the main reason why Singapore banks are nowadays even more arrogant than before and keep raising their thresholds for new clients

Well it does keep out the riff raff after all... ...got the Americans out, now how about the rest of the Euro-trash...

it's the Euro-trash that transfers the billions from Switzerland, Luxembourg and the Channel Islands to Singapore and Hong Kong.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

My UK stockbroker for years has specified on all emails and letters that "our products and services are not available to US citizens". As far as I know this is all to do with them not wanting to have to comply with US regulations.

[Time Traveller]

we should all write to the congress and white house complain. if enough masses get envolve may be something will change

Well back in the real world. You guys had your chance to complain, and then went and re-elected the same guy that oversaw the tightening of the foreign account regulations that you must comply with. Viva comrade Obama.!!

[Time Traveller]

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just the nationality.

U.S. persons includes, as well as U.S. companies and U.S. Nationals, anyone with a green card. (I knew a Scottish guy in Hong Kong who was having to pay tax to Uncle Sam as he didn't want to give up his green card.)

anyone can become a U.S. person and liable to pay taxes, even a tourist, if he/she meets the "substantial presence" in the U.S. of A. and does not pay income tax in a jurisdiction which has ratified a double tax agreement with the USA.

That's the key point. It's not only American citizens. How is a Thai bank able to distinguish who and who is not liable to file a US tax return?

[Soutpeel]

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just the nationality.

U.S. persons includes, as well as U.S. companies and U.S. Nationals, anyone with a green card. (I knew a Scottish guy in Hong Kong who was having to pay tax to Uncle Sam as he didn't want to give up his green card.)

anyone can become a U.S. person and liable to pay taxes, even a tourist, if he/she meets the "substantial presence" in the U.S. of A. and does not pay income tax in a jurisdiction which has ratified a double tax agreement with the USA.

That's the key point. It's not only American citizens. How is a Thai bank able to distinguish who and who is not liable to file a US tax return?

They are unable to distingish this and who should or should file a tax return..its actually nothing to do with the bank, there will always be indivduals who slip through under these rules, ie Dual nationals and PR (green card)....but the starting point is based on a very simple premise...walk in the door with a US passport and the bank are going to say not interested, therefore they have by this action excluded most likely 98% - 99% of the people who have to comply with these rules living in Thailand

Edited December 3, 2012 by Soutpeel

[Lancelot]

I've also read news reports of US expats in europe that have been denied banking services or asked to close their account. I don't feel that it is anti US sentiment, simply that the new reporting requirements being imposed by our all knowing (US) government make tha accounts unprofitable.

[Lancelot]

the latter is also the main reason why Singapore banks are nowadays even more arrogant than before and keep raising their thresholds for new clients

Well it does keep out the riff raff after all... ...got the Americans out, now how about the rest of the Euro-trash...

Ah the good Americans in the southern hemisphere would take exception to your wishes

[trimesh]

I've also read news reports of US expats in europe that have been denied banking services or asked to close their account. I don't feel that it is anti US sentiment, simply that the new reporting requirements being imposed by our all knowing (US) government make tha accounts unprofitable.

One of my friends is a project manager working for Deutsche Bank - they were looking into developing a system to comply with the new US reporting rules about a year and a half ago. The project ended up getting cancelled - his understanding was that there were two reasons for this - one was that the costs involved were sufficiently high that it didn't make any financial sense in view of the rather small number of US customers they had - and the other, more basic, one was that their legal department felt it would be at least very difficult, or perhaps even impossible, to comply both with the US disclosure requirements and the requirements of German data protection and privacy regulations. There are exclusions in the data protection laws for legally mandated disclosures - but since the US has no jurisdiction in Germany this doesn't apply.

[chaz2]

Whatever u do, if u do not want to rile up your bank, do not file form TD F 90-22.1 to make IRS aware of your foreign bank account.

As for Citi Bank, requirement of minimum starting deposit is THB 100,000 is completely ridicules. Already 7 yrs ago, when I lived in Malaysia, Citi Bank would not allow me to have any type of bank account with them. Except that they would eagerly open a frozen accet account of RM 200,000 toward obtaining a 'Malaysia My 2nd Home Visa'. Of course I gave them the middle finger salute and do not intend to ever pass thru a Citi Bank doorway again.

I use Schwab Bank. Flat Fee of $25 for international wire transfers. No ATM fees for withdrawals anyplace in the world. And here have had a Bangkok Bank Acct for 22 years and try to keep enough in it that they will stay happy.

I pay too much to IRS but use no USA services at all except occasional visa pages or notary at USA conciliate but now they have put big fees all across the board so we are getting taxation without representation.

[Tywais]

Whatever u do, if u do not want to rile up your bank, do not file form TD F 90-22.1 to make IRS aware of your foreign bank account.

Really bad advice as the penalties for not filing FBAR can be extreme for not doing so. $10,000 and up are possible.

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-026-016.html

[chaz2]

Whatever u do, if u do not want to rile up your bank, do not file form TD F 90-22.1 to make IRS aware of your foreign bank account.

Really bad advice as the penalties for not filing FBAR can be extreme for not doing so. $10,000 and up are possible.

http://www.irs.gov/i...04-026-016.html

Sorry, due to haste my post was too ambiguous! Glad u are watching.

What I meant to point out is that as you only need to file form TD F 90-22.1 if your foreign bank account goes over US$10,000 during the year, keep your foreign bank account under US$10,000 to avoid filling the form. But do keep it as high as convenient to help keep the foreign bank happy. But under US$10,000

Low cost wire transfers from Schwab bank make that easy to do. Plus no fee for foreign purchases with Schwab debit card makes it easy to have low cash flow on my Bangkok Bank Acct as I use the no fee Schwab debit card for any purchases that will accept VISA Card. Also Schwab has no ATM fees and will reimburse any that another bank charges. But using that should be discouraged because that policy will surely end if too many people abuse it.

[cloudhopper]

What I meant to point out is that as you only need to file form TD F 90-22.1 if your foreign bank account goes over US$10,000 during the year, keep your foreign bank account under US$10,000 to avoid filling the form. But do keep it as high as convenient to help keep the foreign bank happy. But under US$10,000

Well as I read it, if the sum of every bank and/or brokerage account you have an interest in outside the US even momentarily exceeds 10k in aggregate you are required to file.

[Trembly]

Could it be because of the financial transaction reporting criteria in effect in the US and the fact that Thailand is on the world financial black list that any money transaction to or from the US would be so restrictive as to be virtually impossible?

Just a thought!

Nope. Banks in global financial centres like Hong Kong and Singapore simply turn US citizen away because they don't want the IRS breathing down their necks wanting to know everything that they do even if it's got nothing to do with the US citizens accounts. You have the Federal Reserve Revenue Enforcement Service to thank for this.

“Renounce citizenship” is now one of the fastest growing search terms in Google"

Edited December 4, 2012 by Trembly

[mania]

What I meant to point out is that as you only need to file form TD F 90-22.1 if your foreign bank account goes over US$10,000 during the year, keep your foreign bank account under US$10,000 to avoid filling the form. But do keep it as high as convenient to help keep the foreign bank happy. But under US$10,000

Impossible for all those living on a Visa extension here with the required 400-800k THB seasoned in a Thai Bank

[OMGImInPattaya]

I'm in the process of setting up some thai bank accounts and am gathering information from various banks in the pattaya area. Kasikorn will open checking, savings, fixed,, credit card, and securities trading accounts for me as an American citizen but said no to mutual fund investments. A couples doors down, the Siam commercial bank said no problems for any account, including mutual fund purchases. Go figure?