Revolving Doors Are Everywhere

[chopperreed]

Good morning,

A few questions, and observations.

(1) Why pay/spend 1400US$ ++++ when at the end of the day, it would seem, that no pupil fails. Everybody progresses in the Thai education system. Why not just hand over 295US$ and get a piece of paper that says you are TEFL qualified. This piece of paper is equivelent to anything a Thai student will get after their education, a piece of toilet paper. But after obtaining (not earning) this piece of paper the Thai student then goes out and gets a job in the real world and really starts learning (hopefully).

(2) I dont understand how anyone with "apparent" high educational qualifications, high morals sitting on their high horse (ie) many letters after their Dip. or Deg. or for heavens sake B.A could even consider passing a student who has'nt earnt it.

I too can go and buy any Dip. or B.A or anything else i consider "needed" with my lousy 295US$ online TEFL course and start pretending like most.

To receive a B.A in most western countries would set one back around 50,000US$.

At 50,000Baht per month, which by the sounds is a great pay in thailand, well somethings not quiet adding up, but hey who am i to judge.

(3)Why not just go for a 295US$ online course, buy all the books (which you will have to do anyway) from amazon (used books from a couple bucks) and head "off the beaten track" for a few terms where the pay is crap. Learn as your students learn (nobody fails, remember) then after you have cut your teeth and have hours up in practicle teaching then start looking further afield chasing the so called "big money???????" (50,000Baht big??).

(4) I question the qualifications of some/most lecturers within the local (Thailand) 1400US$ TEFL Institutions.

The feeling I get is that "everyone" is out to make a quick buck, Thai schools and TEFL Institutions, the revolving door turns in many places, what!!.

After emailing a couple of TEFL Institutions with a few pertinent questions regarding their courses, rather simple questions, their answers (if I got an answer at all) seem a little, well, dumb, strange, unforthcoming and more than likely unqualified. For example one email to an international type set up regarding converstion rates from UKPound to Dollars was meet with what I would describe as kindergarten mentality.

(5) I question the honesty and integrity of some/most TEFL places, it seems to me it is the revolving door syndrome that is frequently discussed regarding most employers in Language Schools, who just want/need bums on seats, sound familiar!.

I fear being lectured, examined and ultimately scored/marked/graded by some would be, who claims to be everything the world needs in TEFL.

Why would some well adjusted, well educated person holding a B.A or for that matter a Degree in anything even consider leaving the west where they have fored out over 50,000US$ for their education to earn 1000US$ a month. Gee, I know a few smart ars@s who hold B.A and/or Degrees and they would'nt get out of bed for less than 2000US$ a week.

(6) We all (most) have life experiences, some sort of quality education and work experiences that all add up to knowledge. We're all seeking to learn TEFL and teach it. I've heard most (probably not most) of the pros and cons of the industry and why one should do a practicle course over an online course. "Your doing the right thing by the student" who by the way is well aware that "no one fails" in the Thai education system, "everybody progresses". This my future and my students future, but no one fails, except us of course.

Is there any like minded folk out there who have done an on-line TEFL course, done some volunteer teaching to get the hours up, and practicle experience and moved onto to a school who wants/needs help. O.K receive lousy pay and conditions (good experience in the bads of the industry, it aint all roses u know), then moved on to a happy, not wealthy (no such thing, a wealthy TEFL teacher) environs.

I have a friend who has and is still after 4 years enjoying life (not rich) in another asian country, I would like to follow her lead. Any comments, thoughts welcome.

Thanks, and sorry for being so long winded, but I had a bit to get of my chest, obviously.

See yas, Chops.

[kenkannif]

Students do fail in Thailand.

Some people like doing things to the best of their ability.

Online courses are <deleted> so why even bother with that....just knock up your own certificate.

Good luck though mate, I think you'll need it

[PeaceBlondie]

If the original post represents the honest opinion of the poster, then he, she or it should stay home and not come to Thailand to teach EFL. Maybe I'm wrong.

A course where you spend four or more weeks in class is almost always much better than an online course. There are exceptions to everything, of course.

A real course prepares you, and anything less leaves you unprepared to try to slog it out in 40 degree classrooms with 52 students, of whom only 11.5 want to learn. There are far too many frustrations to teach EFL in Thailand, and being ill prepared would make it far worse.

[Sporting Dog]

I agree with PB.

It seems you've got all the answers anyway so I don't know what the point of your post is.

I've met and worked with people like the OP....do yourself and everyone else in thailand (farangs and Thais) a favour and stay home.

[robitusson]

People take teaching here way too seriously, especially considering teaching was an after-thought for most teachers in Thailand. A 4 week TEFL course is going to help of course but not by much. The vast majority of teachers in Thailand are just university graduates with no proper teacher training who are teaching as a means to an end, some don't even have the university education. The way the Thai eduction system is organised and run means that meaningful learning is not a priority which is frustrating. This doesn't mean you have to pack your bags and leave Thailand. Often there's little point in getting too worried about the validity of one or another training course. If you're new to Thailand and you're obviously new to this weboard, you'll have to get used to the usual "why don't you leave Thailand?" knee-jerk response from people when you start noticing the inconsistencies in the Thai education system (and Thai culture). Most TEFL places are just run for the sole aim of making money. Students are passed even when they fail. These are ridiculous and counter-productive and you're right to point it out.

Edited February 16, 2006 by robitusson

[mbkudu]

I have really begun to believe that half the crap in this teaching forum is just that, crap. A newbie to the teaching world in Asia might be better off going in blind than reading a lot of the rubbish in here, especially the posts lately.

[kenkannif]

Must agree....super negative.

[ChiefBEM]

Good morning,

A few questions, and observations.

(1) Why pay/spend 1400US$ ++++ when at the end of the day, it would seem, that no pupil fails. Everybody progresses in the Thai education system. Why not just hand over 295US$ and get a piece of paper that says you are TEFL qualified. This piece of paper is equivelent to anything a Thai student will get after their education, a piece of toilet paper. But after obtaining (not earning) this piece of paper the Thai student then goes out and gets a job in the real world and really starts learning (hopefully).

(2) I dont understand how anyone with "apparent" high educational qualifications, high morals sitting on their high horse (ie) many letters after their Dip. or Deg. or for heavens sake B.A could even consider passing a student who has'nt earnt it.

I too can go and buy any Dip. or B.A or anything else i consider "needed" with my lousy 295US$ online TEFL course and start pretending like most.

To receive a B.A in most western countries would set one back around 50,000US$.

At 50,000Baht per month, which by the sounds is a great pay in thailand, well somethings not quiet adding up, but hey who am i to judge.

(3)Why not just go for a 295US$ online course, buy all the books (which you will have to do anyway) from amazon (used books from a couple bucks) and head "off the beaten track" for a few terms where the pay is crap. Learn as your students learn (nobody fails, remember) then after you have cut your teeth and have hours up in practicle teaching then start looking further afield chasing the so called "big money???????" (50,000Baht big??).

(4) I question the qualifications of some/most lecturers within the local (Thailand) 1400US$ TEFL Institutions.

The feeling I get is that "everyone" is out to make a quick buck, Thai schools and TEFL Institutions, the revolving door turns in many places, what!!.

After emailing a couple of TEFL Institutions with a few pertinent questions regarding their courses, rather simple questions, their answers (if I got an answer at all) seem a little, well, dumb, strange, unforthcoming and more than likely unqualified. For example one email to an international type set up regarding converstion rates from UKPound to Dollars was meet with what I would describe as kindergarten mentality.

(5) I question the honesty and integrity of some/most TEFL places, it seems to me it is the revolving door syndrome that is frequently discussed regarding most employers in Language Schools, who just want/need bums on seats, sound familiar!.

I fear being lectured, examined and ultimately scored/marked/graded by some would be, who claims to be everything the world needs in TEFL.

Why would some well adjusted, well educated person holding a B.A or for that matter a Degree in anything even consider leaving the west where they have fored out over 50,000US$ for their education to earn 1000US$ a month. Gee, I know a few smart ars@s who hold B.A and/or Degrees and they would'nt get out of bed for less than 2000US$ a week.

(6) We all (most) have life experiences, some sort of quality education and work experiences that all add up to knowledge. We're all seeking to learn TEFL and teach it. I've heard most (probably not most) of the pros and cons of the industry and why one should do a practicle course over an online course. "Your doing the right thing by the student" who by the way is well aware that "no one fails" in the Thai education system, "everybody progresses". This my future and my students future, but no one fails, except us of course.

Is there any like minded folk out there who have done an on-line TEFL course, done some volunteer teaching to get the hours up, and practicle experience and moved onto to a school who wants/needs help. O.K receive lousy pay and conditions (good experience in the bads of the industry, it aint all roses u know), then moved on to a happy, not wealthy (no such thing, a wealthy TEFL teacher) environs.

I have a friend who has and is still after 4 years enjoying life (not rich) in another asian country, I would like to follow her lead. Any comments, thoughts welcome.

Thanks, and sorry for being so long winded, but I had a bit to get of my chest, obviously.

See yas, Chops.

Chops,

KenKannif’s comments are correct from my perspective.

1. Students do fail in Thailand even in private schools.

2. Some students do want to learn and some teachers are committed to doing their best in order to pass knowledge on to those students who want to learn.

3. The traditional classroom environment will remain the best environment for learning and for teaching until direct cranial downloads are perfected.

PeaceBlonde

I basically agree with your comments.

However, I am curious from where the statistic “11.5 of 52” students have the desire to learn?

I am new to ThaiVisa,

However, I am not new to the academic world.

I have held faculty positions with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and the University of Phoenix where I taught in the traditional classroom environment and over the internet.

I recently retired from my teaching career which was my third career.

When my wife and I move to Thailand, I will teach a myriad of subjects at Wat Hudsuansuk and other places on a strictly pro bono basis.

I have to support mbkudu’s comments.

I will not stop reading this forum because of a posting from one disturbed person who I believe needs to have a better understanding of the good reasons that this forum is here before he or she makes another posting.

Saying bad things based on stereotyping about people and their intentions serve no purpose.

“Displayed attitude defines the person.”

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's

just that they know so much that isn't so."

- Ronald Reagan

Chops, I wish you the best in your current and future endeavors.

ChiefBEM

[Ijustwannateach]

It is true that this section of the forum attracts a mixed bag of people, including probably more than its fair share of people who are just posting to get reactions and people with axes to grind. Topics of especial vulnerability to flame wars/trolling here are TEFL courses, teacher qualifications, teacher salaries, teacher-adult student affairs, grammar/spelling Nazism, native vs. non-native speaker hires, aging teachers, sexpat and/or backpacking teachers, and of course, that old standby, pedophilia.

I've seen several cycles of all these discussion topics- handled well sometimes and handled as a flame war many times- on teaching forums for Thailand. They burn themselves out and things get better after awhile. I agree that things seem in a bit of a lull right now with a higher than average number of dodgy threads being started, but with very few successful flame wars being started- good on the mods and the "normal" posters here for their restraint!

We're coming up on another hiring season now, so more real teachers/candidates should be looking around- this part of the forum should become a bit more interesting and more purposeful soon, I think.

"Steven"

[chopperreed]

I agree with PB.

It seems you've got all the answers anyway so I don't know what the point of your post is.

yes seems i do.

am i a newbie or is it a new name?????

the truth does hurt, most of the time, hey!

[Ijustwannateach]

Q.E.D.! (someone should probably check out that IP and give it a little vacation, what? )

"Steven"

[Buki]

When I arrived here, my uncle (who teaches in one of the private schools here in BKK) said to me that I should leave my serious teacher qualities back home because it would useless and heartbreaking for me if I put my heart into teaching and assume that the students would be interested in learning. That really surprised me, really. Coming from a country where degrees matter and everyone wants to get ahead in life, I was totally shocked with the system. My uncle told me that the administrators reprimands teachers who fail their student. My uncle says its frustrating but its the bosses orders. I know that there are lenient teachers, but I haven't heard of lenient schools, but then again, its just business as usual for them.

Frustrating aight?

about TEFL, I think the original cause of having such is ultimately helpful for those who doesn't have the experience and the degree. Supposedly, it helps you prepare before going in a class of 50. But I guess it is becoming a big business as well since a lot of native speakers are flocking here in BKK, and most of the schools are requiring the prefered degrees for employement and having those certificates are alternatives or proof that you have gone through the training. And I heard it is costly.

The system should be change, but I think it is difficult since the old schooled fools think that the old ways are still effective. The students are not competitive enough and Thailand is way below the international exams. Their attitude about education is something else. They prefer to be a movie star than to study, that coming from a student. I hope that change will happen, but I am only wishful thinking.

but on a positive note, there are students who are eager to learn the language and it is bearing fruits for them.

[Ron Holms]

Thai Ed isn't that far off. I think (not "know" as in "it all") that one statistics making comparisons with Thailand is tricky because of many unreconcilable differences existing in Thailand and whatever country that its compared to. Fact: Thai High School curriculum for college bound students exceeds the demands in Science and Math of North America and England. Thai students who make the grades in these programs often are admitted and given scholarships abroad due to scores in Math and Science.

That begin said, I can't figure what's going on with regards to subjects like; creative writing. world lit, public speaking (non existent even in Thai), arts and humantities (other than future board and glue).

Been teaching math here for three years and I've never tried to find out the "whys"because even the Thai teachers educated overseas never really understood the need for those areas and therefore the importance was discarded. Not sure how important that side is myself. Most M6 students desks are chock full of magna comic books and they seem to be happy. and that's the name of the game.

Oh. The thing about how Thai's can't fail a class is completely f--cked! That needs to be changed. I don't particularly care to fail anyone, but there is something inherently wrong with this policy. I've heard rumor of change in the wind, but?

TEFL: Cutting its own head off by diluting the market with TEFL certificates. They did a great con job by getting their "institution" to be named in the required section of most job posts. The school around the corner from me has a teacher trainer with no teaching experience, three TEFL online trainers going all day with god knows who and a class of thirty students for the current month's course with five not having mastered the English language by way of places like Kenya to name one. No doubt they will graduate and be granted the "cetificate" and show up to enough places that TEFL will soon have the same credibillity as a M. Ed from the University of Santa Maria Dominguez of the Holy Redeemer, Manilla Campus.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Ron Holms

[Ron Holms]

If the original post represents the honest opinion of the poster, then he, she or it should stay home and not come to Thailand to teach EFL. Maybe I'm wrong.

A course where you spend four or more weeks in class is almost always much better than an online course. There are exceptions to everything, of course.

A real course prepares you, and anything less leaves you unprepared to try to slog it out in 40 degree classrooms with 52 students, of whom only 11.5 want to learn. There are far too many frustrations to teach EFL in Thailand, and being ill prepared would make it far worse.

Chops

Don't pay these hacks any mind. They are paddling down the River Denial. The marginal difference between the online degree and the time spent learning from "teacher trainers" amounts to a rat's fart. I've known many very nice and personable recent grads of supposedly a top TEFL program by my apt. I've seen their demos at our school and they got screewwed! Seen non TEFLers do worse and better. Truth is, they're both shiite. I may be on the river Denial, but the course doesn't appear to be working very well. and in many cases I wish it would.

For your future reference anyone in Thailand who says something like "you should've stayed home" or "go back to your own country" to you are members of a herd of cattle who seem to have adopted this catch phrase over the years. Don't let these types get to you. They will become easily recognizable by the ignorant mouth farts and space wasted on thousands of computers nationwide. Although, when it comes from a Thai, give it due consideration. Most educated Thai's are offended by the herd's assumption that certain totally f'ed things go on in Thailand and if someone takes exception they are instructed to "go back to their home country". Let's see one of these ignorant fools explain that to a Thai. something like: "uh, I have taken it upon myself to protect your country from any opportunity of foreign input for improvement. I'm sure your ignorant Thai ass doesn't mind me speaking on your behalf in your own country" Can you imagine? Think about these idiots that use this phrase all the time!!

sorry but the "go back to your own country" thing needs to be discarded and replaced with something less offensive to Thai's. Something like, "to hel_l with Thailand, I'm going back to my own country"

You'll soon learn that the real reason for this phrase is that the herd is threatened by the increase of foriegn people in Thailand. The same people who they have failed to cope.

[Ron Holms]

I have a friend who has and is still after 4 years enjoying life (not rich) in another asian country, I would like to follow her lead. Any comments, thoughts welcome.

Thanks, and sorry for being so long winded, but I had a bit to get of my chest, obviously.

See yas, Chops.

No problem this time Chops. don't make a habit of it or else relegation to your home country is eminent.

Don't be so serious. Just print a TEFL on a quality piece of paper.

For your lesson, I always imagine I'm ass naked. If that doesn't work put your clothes on and rely on the concern that made you leave you detailed post.

Please keep those of us who feel you shouldn't immediately "go back to your home country" posted on the details of your experience.

good luck

[sriracha john]

When my wife and I move to Thailand, I will teach a myriad of subjects at Wat Hudsuansuk and other places on a strictly pro bono basis.

I applaude your efforts to fund your own work permit to volunteer teach. Regretfully, I gave up the volunteering when faced with the same situation.

[ChiefBEM]

When my wife and I move to Thailand, I will teach a myriad of subjects at Wat Hudsuansuk and other places on a strictly pro bono basis.

I applaude your efforts to fund your own work permit to volunteer teach. Regretfully, I gave up the volunteering when faced with the same situation.

sriracha john,

In 1971, I took wife away from her Thai home in Ubon Ratchatani.

I can now take her back to Ubon and start contributing to the community.

I will be on a retirement visa.

Financially, I have worked hard all of my life and now I am reaping the fruits.

Currently at age 59, I collect 3 retirement checks each month.

I meet the income requirement for a retirement visa with any one of the 3 checks.

[sriracha john]

When my wife and I move to Thailand, I will teach a myriad of subjects at Wat Hudsuansuk and other places on a strictly pro bono basis.

I applaude your efforts to fund your own work permit to volunteer teach. Regretfully, I gave up the volunteering when faced with the same situation.

sriracha john,

In 1971, I took wife away from her Thai home in Ubon Ratchatani.

I can now take her back to Ubon and start contributing to the community.

I will be on a retirement visa.

Financially, I have worked hard all of my life and now I am reaping the fruits.

Currently at age 59, I collect 3 retirement checks each month.

I meet the income requirement for a retirement visa with any one of the 3 checks.

The visa is the easy part. I have no problem with that myself. I was referring to the red tape and expense of obtaining the work permit. Best of luck to you.

[ChiefBEM]

The visa is the easy part. I have no problem with that myself. I was referring to the red tape and expense of obtaining the work permit. Best of luck to you.

I have been told that I can teach and give lectures without a work permit.

This is based on the people that I teach not paying me or anyone else for my services.

I was told this by the head monk in a Wat and two high ranking Thai officials.

I was also asked to contribute time to a show on the Thai Police Radio Network.

The monk could be wrong.

The high ranking Thai officials are not in the Thai Immigration Department. But maybe they were going to take care of the paperwork.

Please, tell me more

[sriracha john]

Chief,

Any work, including volunteer work, in Thailand requires a work permit.

I direct your attention to some other applicable threads:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=351478

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=336633

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=377389

To me, it was not worth the risk, regardless of my benevolent motivations and the backing of the local big wigs, of getting into trouble without one.

Once I begin to make inquiries about getting one, the red tape and expense discouraged me too greatly to obtain one.

[PeaceBlondie]

If the original post represents the honest opinion of the poster, then he, she or it should stay home and not come to Thailand to teach EFL. Maybe I'm wrong.

A course where you spend four or more weeks in class is almost always much better than an online course. There are exceptions to everything, of course.

A real course prepares you, and anything less leaves you unprepared to try to slog it out in 40 degree classrooms with 52 students, of whom only 11.5 want to learn. There are far too many frustrations to teach EFL in Thailand, and being ill prepared would make it far worse.

Chops

Don't pay these hacks any mind. They are paddling down the River Denial. The marginal difference between the online degree and the time spent learning from "teacher trainers" amounts to a rat's fart. ....For your future reference anyone in Thailand who says something like "you should've stayed home" or "go back to your own country" to you are members of a herd of cattle who seem to have adopted this catch phrase over the years. ......sorry but the "go back to your own country" thing needs to be discarded and replaced with something less offensive to Thai's. Something like, "to hel_l with Thailand, I'm going back to my own country"

You'll soon learn that the real reason for this phrase is that the herd is threatened by the increase of foriegn people in Thailand. The same people who they have failed to cope.

Ron, perhaps you didn't understand the clear statement I made. The OP is still back home, and I advised him not to come if he was going to display the attitude in his original post. I challenge you to find, on this or any other forum, where I said "Go back home." I don't like that, either.

And as I said, I may be wrong. Joe Sixpack or Suzy Bigboob may be able to fly in directly from Boise, Idaho or from Perth with no training whatsoever and exceed fabulously where a person with a bachelor's degree and a TEFL cert failed.

The online courses, as I understand, do not provide direct personal contact with the trainer. Of course, one shouldn't take BillyBob's Ecselent Skool of TEFL just because it's convenient. There are exceptions.

Oh, we're supposed to be positive. Yeah, c'mon, Joe or Suzy from Boise or Perth, fly on over. It's easy to teach those 50 kids who are all breathlessly interested in learning, and every classroom is air conditioned, with new computers that really work, whiteboards and Power Point. Free champagne and filet mignon in the school cafeteria.

[robitusson]

If the original post represents the honest opinion of the poster, then he, she or it should stay home and not come to Thailand to teach EFL. Maybe I'm wrong.

For your future reference anyone in Thailand who says something like "you should've stayed home" or "go back to your own country" to you are members of a herd of cattle who seem to have adopted this catch phrase over the years. Don't let these types get to you. They will become easily recognizable by the ignorant mouth farts and space wasted on thousands of computers nationwide.

Agreed. The go-back-home-if-you-don't-like-it brigade are everywhere in LOS. It's a kind of bigotry and I've-been-here-longer-than-you elitism which is extremely prevelant among those who forget that they ever came here as a tourist or looking for a teaching job for the first time. Ignore and avoid these types.

[ChiefBEM]

Chief,

Any work, including volunteer work, in Thailand requires a work permit.

I direct your attention to some other applicable threads:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=351478

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=336633

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=377389

To me, it was not worth the risk, regardless of my benevolent motivations and the backing of the local big wigs, of getting into trouble without one.

Once I begin to make inquiries about getting one, the red tape and expense discouraged me too greatly to obtain one.

John,

Thanks for the information.

I am at an age where I prefer not to be involved in any form of red tape.

If the Thai Police want me to help on their radio show I will politely ask them to provide me with a work visa and then I will order another round!